Hi. I'm new to PF, being an old school DnD player. I just have a question about how this works.
Spell Combat at 1st level I understand, but I'm confused about Improved SC, Greater SC, and True Magus.
First, does the -2 to melee attacks remain throughout? It doesn't say that it goes away so I'm assuming it doesn't???
Also, with Improved SC, you gain a +2 to concentration in addition to any additional penalty you take to-hit. But then with Greater SC, you gain a bonus to concentration which is double the attack penalty taken. Does the bonus to concentration with Greater SC included the -2 as well as any additional, or simply just the additional bonus gained by taking a penalty to hit? It seems that if it doesn't include the original -2, Greater SC doesn't seem all that great. You would have to take an additional minimum -3 to hit to have a higher bonus to concentration and then that would give you only an additional +1!
Any clarification would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Mathmat2112 wrote:
First, does the -2 to melee attacks remain throughout? It doesn't say that it goes away so I'm assuming it doesn't???
Well, I have exactly the same question, the text can be read in both ways IMO.
Spell Combat is meant to mimic TWF, only instead of iterative off-hand attacks, you get a spell.
If you are using TWF feat, and have a light weapon in the offhand the penalties are -2 to melee attacks.
Seems that the -2 to melee attacks is equivalent to the penalty for TWF.
This doesn't go away, unless of course you're not using spell combat.
Kryzbyn wrote: Spell Combat is meant to mimic TWF, only instead of iterative off-hand attacks, you get a spell.
If you are using TWF feat, and have a light weapon in the offhand the penalties are -2 to melee attacks.
Seems that the -2 to melee attacks is equivalent to the penalty for TWF.
This doesn't go away, unless of course you're not using spell combat.
This is a very good point, except that the off hand attack (in this case the spell being cast) loses it's penalty at 20th level (True Magus.) It just seems odd that the penalty for casting goes away but the penalty for the melee attack doesn't.
Like I said, if the -2 isn't lost, then Greater SC doesn't seem to be that big a deal, because you'd need to take at least an additional -3 to-hit to make a difference. (Provided of course that they're not allowing the base -2 to be counted in the concentration check, which is another question I have.)
Hoping somebody can clarify the questions in the original post? Thanks.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Greater Spell Combat doesn't make Improved Spell Combat stop working.
Say, for example, I have a 14th-level magus with 24 Intelligence. That gives him a base Concentration modifier of +21 when casting defensively.
He only needs to be able to hit a DC 25 in order to cast his highest level spells (or DC 27 to cast 6th-level spells at later levels). Note that if he had Combat Casting, he would automatically succeed on his checks already for the last several spell levels.
Because he has Improved Spell Combat, he gains an automatic +2 bonus whenever he casts defensively DURING spell combat.
So that's a +23 modifier out of the +24 he needs to have automatic success all the time.
Then he has Greater Spell Combat which says he gains a +2 bonus for every additional -1 penalty he applies to his attack rolls during spell combat (rather than the former -1/+1 trade off).
Unfortunately, this ability doesn't gain him much as he only needs to trade one point regardless for success to be automatic.
Let's say, however, he is casting next to a fighter with the Disruptive feat. Now his target DC for his most powerful spell is DC 29.
Suddenly, Greater Spell Combat is looking much more appealing. With a +23, he would have to allocate an additional -3 attack bonus (gaining a +6 concentration bonus) in order to automatically succeed his concentration checks against the fighter when fighting defensively while utilizing spell combat.
In the end, Greater Spell Combat still isn't all that useful, as you are unlikely to encounter such fighters very often, and even if you did, between magus basically requiring a high intelligence, combat casting being a must have feat, and the magus' low-level spells, you will almost always be able to auto-succeed your checks at high levels anyways.
Ravingdork wrote: Greater Spell Combat doesn't make Improved Spell Combat stop working.
Say, for example, I have a 14th-level magus with 24 Intelligence. That gives him a base Concentration modifier of +21 when casting defensively.
He only needs to be able to hit a DC 25 in order to cast his highest level spells (or DC 27 to cast 6th-level spells at later levels). Note that if he had Combat Casting, he would automatically succeed on his checks already for the last several spell levels.
Because he has Improved Spell Combat, he gains an automatic +2 bonus whenever he casts defensively DURING spell combat.
So that's a +23 modifier out of the +24 he needs to have automatic success all the time.
Then he has Greater Spell Combat which says he gains a +2 bonus for every additional -1 penalty he applies to his attack rolls during spell combat (rather than the former -1/+1 trade off).
Unfortunately, this ability doesn't gain him much as he only needs to trade one point regardless for success to be automatic.
Let's say, however, he is casting next to a fighter with the Disruptive feat. Now his target DC for his most powerful spell is DC 29.
Suddenly, Greater Spell Combat is looking much more appealing. With a +23, he would have to allocate an additional -3 attack bonus (gaining a +6 concentration bonus) in order to automatically succeed his concentration checks against the fighter when fighting defensively while utilizing spell combat.
In the end, Greater Spell Combat still isn't all that useful, as you are unlikely to encounter such fighters very often, and even if you did, between magus basically requiring a high intelligence, combat casting being a must have feat, and the magus' low-level spells, you will almost always be able to auto-succeed your checks at high levels anyways.
Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it. :)
My question is if the +2 for Improved Spell combat remains when Greater Spell Combat is obtained? If it doesn't, then you would have to take an additional -3 to-hit in order to have a higher concentration bonus than with Improved SC. Here's a chart illustrating that point:
Additional Attack penalty taken: 0 -1 -2 -3 -4
Concentration bonus w Imp SC: +2 +3 +4 +5 +6
Concentration bonus w Grtr SC: 0 +2 +4 +6 +8
This is why I question it's efficacy.
Also, does the -2 melee penalty always apply? Or does it go away. It says nothing in the class description so I'm assuming the -2 is always there.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Both those questions were answered earlier in this thread.
Kryzbyn said the attack penalty for using Spell Combat does NOT go away, which is true.
I specifically said in my last post that you get the +2 Concentration bonus from Improved Spell Combat regardless of whether or not you have Greater Spell Combat--in other words, you keep that too.
Greater Spell Combat does not keep Improved Spell Combat from working.
Ravingdork wrote: Both those questions were answered earlier in this thread.
Kryzbyn said the attack penalty for using Spell Combat does NOT go away, which is true.
I specifically said in my last post that you get the +2 Concentration bonus from Improved Spell Combat regardless of whether or not you have Greater Spell Combat--in other words, you keep that too.
Greater Spell Combat does not keep Improved Spell Combat from working.
Thanks Ravingdork, I appreciate the clarification. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I guess I just read your post too hastily.
Thanks! :)
Sorry to threadjack, but since this topic was here...I ran into this on another thread and was curious about the answer.
If I were to play a multiclass Magus, say Wizard 2/Magus 1 just as an example, could I cast a Wizard spell and use Spell Combat or Spellstrike as long as I cast a (touch) spell that's on the magus spell list?
Sevus wrote: Sorry to threadjack, but since this topic was here...I ran into this on another thread and was curious about the answer.
If I were to play a multiclass Magus, say Wizard 2/Magus 1 just as an example, could I cast a Wizard spell and use Spell Combat or Spellstrike as long as I cast a (touch) spell that's on the magus spell list?
By strict wording, yes, you can.
I'm fairly sure that's not their intention...you'd have to actually be able to cast the spell as a magus (read: having it prepared or through spell pool), but currently it would work.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sevus wrote: Sorry to threadjack, but since this topic was here...I ran into this on another thread and was curious about the answer.
If I were to play a multiclass Magus, say Wizard 2/Magus 1 just as an example, could I cast a Wizard spell and use Spell Combat or Spellstrike as long as I cast a (touch) spell that's on the magus spell list?
No you cannot. You need the Broad Study Magus Arcana to be able to do this.
Synapse wrote: Sevus wrote: Sorry to threadjack, but since this topic was here...I ran into this on another thread and was curious about the answer.
If I were to play a multiclass Magus, say Wizard 2/Magus 1 just as an example, could I cast a Wizard spell and use Spell Combat or Spellstrike as long as I cast a (touch) spell that's on the magus spell list?
By strict wording, yes, you can.
I'm fairly sure that's not their intention...you'd have to actually be able to cast the spell as a magus (read: having it prepared or through spell pool), but currently it would work. Ravingdork wrote: Sevus wrote: Sorry to threadjack, but since this topic was here...I ran into this on another thread and was curious about the answer.
If I were to play a multiclass Magus, say Wizard 2/Magus 1 just as an example, could I cast a Wizard spell and use Spell Combat or Spellstrike as long as I cast a (touch) spell that's on the magus spell list?
No you cannot. You need the Broad Study Magus Arcana to be able to do this. Well they all refer to spell list, if you use the wand of shocking grasp with wielder, the magus doesn´t care of a wizard made the wand.
I could see this go either way, and I actually have no problem for a wizard 14/ magus 3 to use spellstrike and spell combat to cast spells from his wizards slots, that appear on the magus list.
Oh and a level 1 Magus can´t use spellstrike, that one comes at level 2
Recent threads in Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion
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