Can an Elf be viable as a member of the Fighter Class?
The reasons I as are:
The elven curved blade for no feat can be interesting I suppose..
The elven curved blade for no feat can be interesting I suppose..
Interresting yes, but is it worth it?
At worst -2 CON isn´t any different than having a lower point buy.
Monster CR doesn´t change depending on point buy, so I don´t see this s the worst thing in the world.
Take Favored Class: HPs and Toughness at some point and you should be fine.
Pick up Adamantine Armor when you can, DR is nice. Automatic Healing items do exist.
+2 DEX is great for Archers and for AoO´s/Combat Reflexes, which synergizes best with Reach Weapons. AoO´s are a serious source of damage/effects, and essentially THE core way for melee types to ´game´ the action-economy. And Init matters.
+2 INT gives them more skills. Acrobatics (avoiding AoO´s), Perception (surprise rounds, gaining tactical advantage generally), Stealth (see Perception) are just 3 skills any Fighter would like to have maxed. Elven Senses giving +2 to Perception along with Low-Light is just candy.
Immunity to Sleep effects and +2 vs. Enchantments shore up defenses against things that are usually the bane of Fighters.
Elven Curveblade is a damn nice weapon to be proficient in - the highest DPR Olympics builds used it, for one. Archers would love it for switch-hitting, everybody else just likes the damage and crit, to hell that it works with Finesse.
The APG alternate racial traits offer some options that aren´t AMAZING, but are at least useful (e.g. boosting Fort Saves vs. Fatigue/Exhaustion effects, more than countering CON penalty) in exchange for the magical traits which you don´t care about.
They are definitely ´viable´.
Barbarian and Ranger Favored Class options are actually nice as well:
Extra Speed, and Bonus to Confirm Crits (for weapons like bows and elven curveblades)
for ´fighter´ types that aren´t fighters per se.
Any race can make a good fighter.
Each race has its own inherent strengths and weaknesses. The fighter is a very versatile class and thus can be used well with the strengths of any race.
Obviously dexterity based fighters would work well with elves...archers, crossbowmen, reach weapon/combat reflexes types, finesse types, twfing types, etc..
Thanks to armor training dexterity is no longer a 'dump' stat for fighters, so a good dex doesn't go to waste. Even wearing full plate, at higher levels a fighter can make use of a very good amount of dexterity for purposes of AC.
Int is also very useful for a fighter, as many combat feats require a minimum Int score. Additionally, fighters get so few skill points that the extra Int can help make a more well rounded fighter.
Elves also get some nice bonuses to shore up a fighters inherent weakness...will saves. Elves are immune to sleep and get a +2 bonus on saves vs enchantments. So thats a nice little defensive bonus for elven fighters.
Yes, the -2 con can hurt. But it really just translates to -1 Fort saves (which fighters get good Fort saves anyways) and 1 less hp per level, so even at level 10 thats just -10 hps...not enough to break someone. And that can be gotten back with toughness or favored class benefits anyways.
Even then, you can arrange your stats so that your Con doesn't stink. You don't necessarily need to put Dex as your highest stat either.
Even for a Str based fighter, the extra dex over con can be beneficial. For instance, a shield bashing fighter can use the dex to qualify for the higher TWFing feats. And the Int can be used to qualify for Combat Expertise and the feats that it opens up, such as Imp Trip.
It really just matters what you are trying to do with the character.
But in no way are Elves bad fighters. They are in fact rather versatile, and depending on what you are wanting to do, can be better than the more typical races such as human, dwarf, or half-orc.
it seems like you´re changing the question from ´viable?´ to ´worth it?´
the only answer I have to ´worth it?´ is if you are having fun, it`s worth it.
if you don´t have any character concept or interest in the backstory making you want to play an elf, don´t play an elf. if you do, there´s no reason you can´t play a heroic elf warrior.
To clarify, unless you´re going for an archer or 2WF (which is now viable via 2WF APG variant), you will still be going for STR over DEX, and shouldn´t take Weapon Finesse even if Curveblade works with it. And actually, even if you go 2WF I still wouldn´t go Weapon Finesse, and would go for just enough DEX to qualify for the 2WF as I pick them up and still get as much STR as possible, equal or more to DEX.
...But any Fighter wants a decent DEX anyways, so the bonus here is never wasted.
Even when playing characters whose race allows a +2 to STR, I rarely ever start with 20 in STR, even when that´s my highest stat... It´s simply better to balance out your stats (DEX, INT, WIS). The CON hit isn´t ideal here, but it isn´t a killer either. I really don´t understand the focus on +2 -2 here and there as the prime determinants of characters. They really don´t matter compared to your actual class abilities and feats, and how you play the character.
it seems like you´re changing the question from ´viable?´ to ´worth it?´
the only answer I have to ´worth it?´ is if you are having fun, it`s worth it.
if you don´t have any character concept or interest in the backstory making you want to play an elf, don´t play an elf. if you do, there´s no reason you can´t play a heroic elf warrior.
damn skippy +1
A better question is Do you like having pointed ears?
Do you like having green blood (dependent of campaign)?
Do you like living in trees?
Do you like to go out, under starlight, and dance naked under the full moon?
Do you like living a long time, and watching the lesser races wilt like leafs?
Do you think dwarfs are small, hairy, and smelly?
If you answered yes to most if not all of these... then yes you should be an elf.. of any class :)
Can an Elf be viable as a member of the Fighter Class?
The reasons I as are:
The -2 penalty to Constitution can be a huge hindrance.
Most of the Elf's racial advantages appear geared toward a Spell Caster of some kind.
You should build to the elf's strengths and protect his weaknesses a bit.
The elf fighter should have a slightly higher Dex and Int so his AC, Reflex, Initiative, Skill Points and some protection from some magic. Low-light vision is always good to have. A bonus to Perception is always good too.
As was mentioned, two-weapon fighting is a good choice. You could also consider ranged combat. With the improved Intelligence you can also consider going the Whirlwind Attack tree especially if you are also a mobile fighter from the APG. You can combine that with Two-Weapon Fighter. I don't know how viable the combination is but you can take both options.
I hear one of the nastiest Fighter builds you can make is a ranged fighter build, with things like Deadly Aim and the like. At high levels, with Deadly Aim, Pinpoint Targeting, and the Vital Strike tree, they basically fire Patriot Missiles.
Let's see... do Elves make good archers?
:)
I guess first you have to define viable.
That term drives me nuts. It makes me imagine an elf fighter dying within minutes of being born.
I guess first you have to define viable.That term drives me nuts. It makes me imagine an elf fighter dying within minutes of being born.
"Sorry, ma'am, but your son didn't make it. He was... unoptimized. There was nothing we could do."
"Sorry, ma'am, but your son didn't make it. He was... unoptimized. There was nothing we could do."
Noooooooo!
If only I'd chosen Cleave instead of Cosmopolitan, things might have been different.....
"Sorry, ma'am, but your son didn't make it. He was... unoptimized. There was nothing we could do."I guess first you have to define viable.That term drives me nuts. It makes me imagine an elf fighter dying within minutes of being born.
NICE!
"Sorry, ma'am, but your son didn't make it. He was... unoptimized. There was nothing we could do."Noooooooo!
If only I'd chosen Cleave instead of Cosmopolitan, things might have been different.....
Then the surviving babies discover they've been thrown into an Urban Intrigue campaign where there's only one combat every other session...
|
"Sorry ma'am, but we had to, uhm, put your child out. It had 10 Cha. No, really. Anybody who has Cha above 6 fails at life, unless it's a Sorcerer, which results in the same, because nobody does Sorcerer if you can be a GodWizard. It also means that whoever concieved that child was an idiot who fails at D&D. Those are FACTS, not OPINIONS so please don't discuss that or we will put you on ignore. Hi welcome."
Sort of.
They do ok as ranged Fighters in general and they can do as well for other Fighters if you roll instead of use point buy.
Put your fav class point to your hp
This is a good point for Pathfinder..
I'd suspect that Elf fighters would work better as "dodge tanks," but don't take my word on it. I'm currently working on a an Elven Fighter of my own, but I'm stuck between two different builds.
Either one based on the Archer archetype, which would capitalize on the Elf's Dexterity, or one based on the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, in which case I'd combo up Weapon Finesse and Power Attack with the Elven Curve Sword.
Decisions, decisions. Perhaps it could flow well into a multiclass, preferably one that offers better Will saves.
Any race can make a fighter as long as you don't get caught up with the whole min/max thing.
If by viable you mean optimal, then no except for archer builds- and there are some good suggestions previously on this thread. Even then, I'll leave it to the build experts to see if that holds up. As for the plus to Intelligence, remember that a human has +1 skill point/level plus a feat. But Elves would get low-light vision and certain bonuses to Will saves and don't have to sleep. I'd say such a character could pull his/her weight in a party.
The dex and int bonuses can be very big for some builds, even if its a strength build.
A lot can depend on how you and your group generate characters. If going with a low point buy, or if you have moderate die rolls, you might have a hard time qualifying for certain feats and feat chains without the bonuses that the elf gives to dex and int.
For instance, a combat reflexes/tripper...a very effective build I'd note...needs at least a 13 Int for Expertise-->Imp Trip-->Grtr Trip, and needs a good dex for combat reflexes for AoOs. And thats in addition to needing a high Str. For a lot of point buys or a sub par die roll it can be very difficult to pull this off without dumping Cha and Wis to the negatives. The elf can make this much easier to do, say by putting his highest stat into Str, next highest two into dex and con, and then having at least a base of 11 for Int to get the 13 Int going. In essence, thats a total of +4 to necessary attributes that a human, half-orc, or half-elf can't match...and much less a dwarf.
A twf-ing or shield bashing build can need a lot of dexterity, even if focusing primarily on Str. And if you want to do anything down the Combat Expertise line you'll need the minimum Int too.
So that lets the elf be really good..better than any other race even...at certain build types that need a certain amount of dex and int to be good.
And you can also see how the bonus to Int is more than equal to the humans +1 skill point. Not only is it at least getting an extra skill point, but its helping achieve minimum Int requirements for feats, and gives a boost to Int based skills; the humans bonus doesn't quite do the same thing.
The Armor Training class feature makes Elven Fighter more than viable.
Can an Elf be viable as a member of the Fighter Class?
I'd happily roll with one.
Viable/worth it are purely subjective, and then it comes down to play style and tactics.
|
The Armor Training class feature makes Elven Fighter more than viable.
True...that +2 dex isn't so bad when to get full use of the mithril full plate you need a dex of 24. Going adamantium and you still need 20 dex. Assuming your getting +6 belt and +2 from wish spells at high levels, that is a 16 you need for mithril to start and 12 for adamantium.
Yeah there is no way an elf can WIN at D&D as a fighter. Keep them in their Wizard's corner.
Heck, Wizards are the only class that can WIN at D&D so why are we even talking about this?
/sarcasm
Please, feel free to ignore the ranting troll :)
GNOME
Yeah there is no way an elf can WIN at D&D as a fighter. Keep them in their Wizard's corner.
Heck, Wizards are the only class that can WIN at D&D so why are we even talking about this?
/sarcasm
Please, feel free to ignore the ranting troll :)
GNOME
The funny thing about the anti-Pathfinder people is that, while some of their arguments may be valid (ex: casters don't need 1d6 hp/lvl), their main argument is that Pathfinder killed the "only" way to play certain classes.
Well, IMHO, when there is "only" a "single" and CHEESY way to play a class "right", it means, at least for me, that this class is already dead, or that you're playing the game wrong anyway, because it's the only way to came to such a conclusion.
Who wants to play with someone that believes that the "only" way to play a Rogue is by throwing 10 alchemist's fires per round while hasted and blinking or being invisible (for 10 ranged touch sneak attacks per round)? First, it's stupid. Second, where are you storing those 100 flasks? Oh, in a bag of holding you say! Sorry little fellow, you need a move action to retrieve one flask from your bag of holding, and Quick Draw won't help you, since it's a stored item (true for 3.5 and PF). What did you said? You said that you will keep all those alchemist's fires in your belt? Well, I hope for you that Shatter was banned from your game, because it could really hurt for a second level spell you know...
By the way, the "throwing 10 alchemist's fires per round Rogue" is a real argument of the anti-Pathfinder people, it's not a joke (at least for them).
Ok, I'll stop the threadjack here, I just needed to spit it out. I feel better now. :)
Can an Elf be viable as a member of the Fighter Class?
Yes. The -2 Con adjustment should not be considered an insurmountable drawback.
Elves make great fighters. +2 to Dex is great for fighter, they need a decently high Dex to take advantage of Armor Training as they level up. Otherwise Armor Training is waste after 7th level and you only get 1/2 the ability of it for 3rd and 7th level. If Dex is low on a fighter better to take an Archetype from the APG that doesn't give bonus based on Dex.
-2 Con isn't a big deal because you get +2 to Int. So you dump you Int to 8 and bring it back up to 10 if you Con is really that important. But consider the fighter has 1D10 hit dice, enough feats to take toughness, and favored class bonus to HP as you INT is boosted so you don't need the skill point.
+2 to perception is great for a fighter as anything that boosts a fighters perception is good. Elven immunities are nice as is the low light vision.
|
I wanna contribute, but everything relevant has already been said several times. What to do...oh!
I'll post this hot Elven fighter here. I'd post Seltiyel, but everyone's got the Magus pdf already.
Then, in true counter-grognardian fashion, I'll hoo-ah the Elven Curved Blade as a good reason to play a full-bab elf! Yay for the curved blade! It slices and dices and stays sexy nevermind the user!
Some other points to consider:
Fighter -> prestige class works really well with the elf, more so with some prestige classes than others -- Elves make wonderful duelists, are good shadowdancers, work well with assassin, and if you want to mix magic with martial are not a bad choice for arcane archerers, arcane tricksters, and eldritch knights.
Several archtypes do really well with elves as well -- mobile fighters can use the extra Dex to get into two weapon fighting to give them more swings as they move (at level 11 and beyond) and switch hitters also find the Dex useful, as do free hand fighters, and two weapon fighters. Archery fighters of course find benefit in being an elf as well.
The "hit" to Con isn't quite as hard as it is made out to be: If normally you would want a 14 Dex and 14 Con the elf can handle that fine -- drop two from Int start with a Dex of 12 and put the five points you would have spent in Dex and that you pulled from Int into Con -- you've got 14 Dex and 14 Con with no actual expense to the build. Honestly if you did 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int before racial you would end up with 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int giving you a "point savings" of 5.
Now if you want a sky rocketed Con yeah it's going to hurt -- but honestly the stats don't need to be that high for martial characters -- most are better served with several 14's and a 16 or two.