How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Did someone call?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm not a Catholic. Doesn't this create a "damned if you do, damned if you doubt" dichotomy? (heard that one from a Catholic friend years and years ago)
This has nothing to do with salvation.
If someone stays in the Church because it might make him a good person, or because that's what he understand to be the path to heaven, but doesn't really believe in the tenets of the faith, he's doing it wrong, mouthing creeds he doesn't espouse. We're a church, not a spa. Being a member of the communion is about what's right and true, not about what's useful.
All of this is from my perspective. I certainly don't fault anyone from holding sincere opposing views. Ambrose Bierce wrote "A heretic is someone who disagrees with you on a subject neither of you know anything about."
If we feel the Majestarium is mistaken, the correct response is to pray for them, not to abandon the sacramental Church.
And we all know how effective that is, what with prayer's proven track record... oh wait.
spam
Mmm. tasty spam.
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How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Actually, it has nothing to do with the Catholic church (or any other religion) being criticized. It has more to do with the fact that it's all circular logic and pundits discussing policies and beliefs that a) they don't agree with and b) have no hope of changing since they are outside the system they are arguing against.
I have no problems with people disagreeing with my beliefs and the beliefs of others. You're free to believe what you want and say what you want whenever you want.
I just don't see a purpose of an endless argument where nothing gets resolved and winds up just dividing people into "camps" that will always have disagreeing perspectives on the issue.
When you argue just for argument's sake, you accomplish nothing. As I said previously, if you want to change the world, you have to go out and change it, not complain that others aren't.
spamMmm. tasty spam.
Tasty spam is tasty.
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Wait I'm Catholic? News to me.
Wait I'm Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
It is the only explanation for what you're doing. Duh.
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Come now, GG- I agree with you on many points both in this thread and outside of it, but I must disagree here. Don't look at it as spamming. Instead, take it as the chill pill we all needed, get a laugh at some of the funnier ones, and return to the original topic a bit fresher for the respite.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And we all know how effective that is, what with prayer's proven track record... oh wait.
Prayer's track record for providing guidance, correcting moral errors, and turning folks to God is extraordinary, GG.
But, even if it weren't, I understand that Christ's directive to us is to pray for others, as well as to make our own lives right. So that's the instruction I think I should follow. That's turning into my theme here: we are taught to choose the right action, whether it appears to be the most immediately useful one or not.
Come now, GG- I agree with you on many points both in this thread and outside of it, but I must disagree here. Don't look at it as spamming. Instead, take it as the chill pill we all needed, get a laugh at some of the funnier ones, and return to the original topic a bit fresher for the respite.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
I just see it as incredibly hypocritical, that the same people complain that this discussion won't change anything and you can't win over other people by being "douchebags" and then they turn around and does exactly the same thing, spamming with stuff that doesn't change anything and being a douchebag way to stiffle discussion.
I demand we all go eat cheese!!
And we all know how effective that is, what with prayer's proven track record... oh wait.Prayer's track record for providing guidance, correcting moral errors
Really? I'd like for you to provide proof for this. How can it provide guidance when you don't get any feedback? How can it correct moral errors when you get no feedback?
Prayer is just as effective as thinking things through on your own in these situations, so why the need for any supernatural pretense?and turning folks to God is extraordinary, GG.
Again, any proof that prayer itself does this? If you mean that people have become religious because people have sat down and prayed with them, that's easily explainable by other factors (sense of community, another human being paying attention to you and your problems etc.)
But, even if it weren't, I understand that Christ's directive to us is to pray for others, as well as to make our own lives right. So that's the instruction I think I should follow. That's turning into my theme here: we are taught to choose the right action, whether it appears to be the most immediately useful one or not.
That's the same as saying that you pray for the oil spill in the Mexican Gulf to disappear instead of picking up showels and go remove the oil on the beach. One thing actually accomplishes something, the other doesn't.
I demand we all go eat cheese!!
Actually, I've just bought a 3 pound block of cheese... I like cheese.
So I can go for that!
I demand we all go eat cheese!!Since you're not going to abstain from eating cheese, make sure you wear a condom.
Wouldn't I need a dental dam?
I demand we all go eat cheese!!Actually, I've just bought a 3 pound block of cheese... I like cheese.
So I can go for that!
Woot! see we can agree cheese is tasty. (unless your lactose intolerant, and then I feel bad for you).
Wouldn't I need a dental dam?I demand we all go eat cheese!!Since you're not going to abstain from eating cheese, make sure you wear a condom.
Logic doesn't apply!
Wait I'm Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.It is the only explanation for what you're doing. Duh.
Oh. How silly of me. I'll go find the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized asap.
And we all know how effective that is, what with prayer's proven track record... oh wait.Prayer's track record for providing guidance, correcting moral errorsReally? I'd like for you to provide proof for this. How can it provide guidance when you don't get any feedback? How can it correct moral errors when you get no feedback?
Prayer is just as effective as thinking things through on your own in these situations, so why the need for any supernatural pretense?and turning folks to God is extraordinary, GG.Again, any proof that prayer itself does this? If you mean that people have become religious because people have sat down and prayed with them, that's easily explainable by other factors (sense of community, another human being paying attention to you and your problems etc.)
But, even if it weren't, I understand that Christ's directive to us is to pray for others, as well as to make our own lives right. So that's the instruction I think I should follow. That's turning into my theme here: we are taught to choose the right action, whether it appears to be the most immediately useful one or not.That's the same as saying that you pray for the oil spill in the Mexican Gulf to disappear instead of picking up showels and go remove the oil on the beach. One thing actually accomplishes something, the other doesn't.
You remind me of the guy in the latest King Arthur movie(which I loved, many hated).
Woot! see we can agree cheese is tasty. (unless your lactose intolerant, and then I feel bad for you).I demand we all go eat cheese!!Actually, I've just bought a 3 pound block of cheese... I like cheese.
So I can go for that!
Mmmmm cheese.
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Oh. How silly of me. I'll go find the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized asap.Wait I'm Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.It is the only explanation for what you're doing. Duh.
Great! I hear they're handing out bullseyes to wear nowdays.... or was it kick me signs?
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Mmmmm cheese.Woot! see we can agree cheese is tasty. (unless your lactose intolerant, and then I feel bad for you).I demand we all go eat cheese!!Actually, I've just bought a 3 pound block of cheese... I like cheese.
So I can go for that!
I thought I shot you at the Mole Rat Ranch outside of New Vegas?
Actually that would be 0/0 which is infinite on both sides and thus equal.4/0 is undefined. Are you confident you're using mathematics?Apparently, that makes two of us.You mean you don't know?And 2 + 2 can equal 5. Decimal base systems are overrated.In what base does 2 + 2 = 5?0 = 0
0*4 = 0*5
0*4/0 = 0*5/0ergo, 4 = 5
ergo, 2 + 2 = 5.
0/0 is -also- undefined (in addition to 4/0 and 5/0)
I'll try to explain so you can understand.
take any equation a/b, to make things easy, let's note that a can be any number (but we'll specify 0).
b can be any real number. As b approaches 0 from the left, the fraction goes to negative infinity. As b approaches 0 from the right, the fraction goes to positive infinity. Since negative infinity doesn't equal positive infinity, there's pretty obviously a discontinuity in the equation at b = 0. To put that another way, 0/0 (or any number over 0) is undefined.
That is if you subscribe to such dogma and feel that you feel the need to be set to certain fixed proofs and set aside everything else as fuzzy logic.
I find it amusing that you're harping about Catholicism and their improprieties based on your opinion gathered from media article and not from first hand evidence, but I come up with a fun mathematical exercise and you're affixed to your own dogma and unable to see things from another hypothesis or posit a "if x = #, then" query before digging into the crux of the problem.
It's ironic, actually. Bordering on amusing. Essentially, you're as dogmatic with your own opinions with those whom you try to demonstrate against as being affixed or unyielding (or clouded) with theirs.
Shame.
I thought I shot you at the Mole Rat Ranch outside of New Vegas?Mmmmm cheese.Woot! see we can agree cheese is tasty. (unless your lactose intolerant, and then I feel bad for you).I demand we all go eat cheese!!Actually, I've just bought a 3 pound block of cheese... I like cheese.
So I can go for that!
Mooooo?
We all stake a reputation on what we believe is not true, as well as what we believe to be true. If you believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or if you believe the universe works on physical principles apart, your belief requires you to deny the existence of, say, the god Odin.
0/0 is undefined, not infinite.
I'm reminded of Bertrand Russell's off-the-cuff proof that "If 2 + 2 = 5, then I'm Santa Claus."
- 2+2 = 5 (given)
- 2 = 3 (from step 1, subtracting 2 from equal quantities yields equal quantities)
- 1 = 2 (from step 2, subtracting 1 from equal quantities yields equal quantities)
- Santa Claus and I are two people.
- Santa Claus and I are one person. (from steps 3 and 4)
- Therefore I am Santa Claus.
--Chris
guy with credentials in number theory
Haha!
Great! I hear they're handing out bullseyes to wear nowdays.... or was it kick me signs?Oh. How silly of me. I'll go find the nearest Catholic Church and get baptized asap.Wait I'm Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.It is the only explanation for what you're doing. Duh.
Woohoo! I love being kicked!
Wait, I'm ROMAN Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
FIFY.
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FIFY.Wait, I'm ROMAN Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
But they're not Roman. duh. :P
Prayer's track record for providing guidance, correcting moral errors, and turning folks to God is extraordinary, GG.
Hi, Chris. While I appreciate your point, I've minor quibbles with parts of it. Specifically, "correcting moral errors" seems like a claim you can't back up -- I mean, if you count the successes and not the failures, anything has an extraordinary track record. Rather, you'd have to also include those people who prayed and then became convinced that God was telling them to murder all their followers (Jim Jones), etc. And you'd also have to contrast your totals with those for people (like Jefferson) who have corrected moral errors purely through thinking and reasoning, and those (like Stalin) who failed. And then you could see if prayer really does better.
I know this sounds boringly technical and pointless. However, I hear a lot of claims, like yours, that religion makes people more moral... but what I see is that sometimes it does, but equally often it does not.
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Believe me when I say this, but it's not necessarily the issue of religious persecution involved that's creating the 'noise' that you're witnessing. It's more the issue involving civility or the lacking of it when wanting to create a legitimate discourse.
As for me? Left-wing or right-wing, theist or a-theist? Whatever, I'm here to talk about role playing game and boobs. The problem is that some people are role playing boobs and their game theory isn't so hot. Lukewarm, actually. ;-)
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
Pot-Kettle-Black.
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.Believe me when I say this, but it's not necessarily the issue of religious persecution involved that's creating the 'noise' that you're witnessing. It's more the issue involving civility or the lacking of it when wanting to create a legitimate discourse.
As for me? Left-wing or right-wing, theist or a-theist? Whatever, I'm here to talk about role playing game and boobs. The problem is that some people are role playing boobs and their game theory isn't so hot. Lukewarm, actually. ;-)
Urizen has hit on my issue wit threads like this. I as an agnostic/atheist, don't want any religious people telling me that I am wrong, or that I should believe a certain way. But that goes both ways I am also not going to tell someone who is religious that they are wrong or that they should believe a certain way.
FIFY.Wait, I'm ROMAN Catholic? News to me.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Thanks real me's dad. :D
Customer:
Morning,
Waitress:
Morning.
Customer:
What have you got?
Waitress:
Well, there's egg and bacon,
egg sausage and bacon
Egg and spam
Egg, bacon and spam
Egg, bacon, sausage and spam
Spam, bacon, sausage and spam
Spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam
Spam, sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam tomato and spam
Spam, spam, spam, egg and spam
Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.
(Choir: Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Lovely Spam! Lovely Spam!)
Or Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce
served in a provencale manner with shallots and aubergines
garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife:
Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress:
Well, the spam, eggs, sausage and spam
That's not got much spam in it
Wife:
I don't want any spam!
Customer:
Why can't she have eggs, bacon, spam and sausage?
Wife:
That's got spam in it!
Customer:
Hasn't got much spam in it as spam, eggs, sausage and spam has it?
(Choir: Spam! Spam! Spam!...)
Wife:
Could you do me eggs, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam, then?
Waitress:
Iiiiiiiiiiiich!!
Wife:
What do you mean 'Iiiiiiiiiich'? I don't like spam!
(Choir: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!)
Waitress (to choir):
Shut up!
(Choir: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!)
Waitress:
Shut Up! Bloody Vikings!
You can't have egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam.
Wife:
I don't like spam!
Customer:
Shush dear, don't have a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it,
I'm having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans,
spam, spam, spam, and spam!
(Choir: Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!)
Waitress:
Shut Up!! Baked beans are off.
Customer:
Well, could I have her spam instead of the baked beans then?
Waitress:
You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
spam and spam?
Choir (intervening):
Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam!
Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam.
Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!
Spam spam spam spam!
Thanks to snow, I finally have had a chance to have a very quick look at the abstract of "Efficacy of a Theory-Based Abstinence-Only Intervention Over 24 Months", the report presman mentioned thanks in large part to snow.
Published in Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine, the study is certainly interesting. However, it doesn't really show that even this theory based abstinent only program works, that is unless you aim is a reduction in self reporting of sexual activity. That certainly isn't my aim, which is the reductions of levels of STIs in the sample group.
First of all, what the study does show is that it reduced self reporting of sexual behaviour, not necessarily the behaviour itself, the statistical weight of its evidence with regards to condom usage is pretty light, and it is self reported.
The study doesn't really tell use what effect the change in levels of self reporting had on the health outcomes of the various group, and that is what really matters.
It is entirely possible that the abstinence only group under reported sexual behaviour, and while they didn't use a moralistic approaches, it is notoriously difficult to get accurate self reporting on matters of sexual health and behaviour, especially amongst adolecents. As a result what we may well have is a group who are having just as much sex, but not reporting.
What really needs to happen, is a follow up, in which participants rates of STI infection and pregnacy are compared. After all the aim is to have healthier young people, not young people who are not only less healthy, but hiding the fact that they are.
That isn't to say that the study is flawed, as a prelim into a new approach to abstinance only, using a reason based methodology, it is very interesting, and might yet bare some kind of fruit. The problem come from trying to make more of it than it actually says.
Pot-Kettle-Black.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
Except for the fact, Gary, that there is plenty of evidence for this all around. There still seems to be this notion that religion is exempt from criticism on behalf of it being... religion?
If we can criticize e.g. political institutions or secular institutions when they screw up, why shouldn't we be able to do the same with religious institutions? What makes them special?
You remind me of the guy in the latest King Arthur movie(which I loved, many hated).
I have no idea if that's a criticism or a compliment... you'll have to be more specific. ;-)
Pot-Kettle-Black.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
Except for the fact, Gary, that there is plenty of evidence for this all around. There still seems to be this notion that religion is exempt from criticism on behalf of it being... religion?
If we can criticize e.g. political institutions or secular institutions when they screw up, why shouldn't we be able to do the same with religious institutions? What makes them special?
Using offence to silence critism is one of religions greatest strengths, how dare you criticise it. Your actions offend me sir. ;)
Pot-Kettle-Black.How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
Except for the fact, Gary, that there is plenty of evidence for this all around. There still seems to be this notion that religion is exempt from criticism on behalf of it being... religion?
If we can criticize e.g. political institutions or secular institutions when they screw up, why shouldn't we be able to do the same with religious institutions? What makes them special?
Before we get started, how would you respond if someone said during a discussion, "But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of homosexual people have." Insert Black, Latino, or any other nationality/race there for more examples. Would you believe it to be in bad taste?
I prefer to philosophize with a hammer. Mjlonir needs a workout.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I know this sounds boringly technical and pointless. However, I hear a lot of claims, like yours, that religion makes people more moral... but what I see is that sometimes it does, but equally often it does not.
Hi, Kirth.
I apologize for being vague. Person A "being religious" may or may not make Person A more moral. I'd like to think that it might raise moral issues, and offer some avenues of reflection, but there's no need for a God there. It's just as likely for a religous person to do things contrary to his faith, or to find a way to justify terrible behavior using religious vocabulary.
(And in particular, I don't hold with the "total depravity" view of the human condition popular among evalgelical churches.)
But I believe that when People B, C, D, and E all pray for the soul of Person A, that God answers those prayers, and often than answer includes a clear path that would lead Person A towards being a better person.
And that holds true if it's Person A praying humbly for his own benefit.
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I know this sounds boringly technical and pointless. However, I hear a lot of claims, like yours, that religion makes people more moral... but what I see is that sometimes it does, but equally often it does not.Hi, Kirth.
I apologize for being vague. Person A "being religious" may or may not make Person A more moral. I'd like to think that it might raise moral issues, and offer some avenues of reflection, but there's no need for a God there. It's just as likely for a religous person to do things contrary to his faith, or to find a way to justify terrible behavior using religious vocabulary.
(And in particular, I don't hold with the "total depravity" view of the human condition popular among evalgelical churches.)
But I believe that when People B, C, D, and E all pray for the soul of Person A, that God answers those prayers, and often than answer includes a clear path that would lead Person A towards being a better person.
And that holds true if it's Person A praying humbly for his own benefit.
I only pray for next week's Powerball numbers.
In my defense, I'd take most of that money and (first) make sure all my friends and family's debts are paid off and that they have a nice place to live and (second) give a LOT to charity (maybe even set up a FAWTLy college scholarship or somethin').
How sad that when some people feel like the organization they belong to is critized, they immediately resort to childish spamming. How incredibly immature. But I guess it fits with the persecution complex a lot of religious people have.
If your organization didn't act like it does, maybe there wouldn't be so much to critize. Just a thought.
Immediately woulda been page 1. :)
But it seems to have a beneficial effect, though it seems you are the offended person now. :(
Repeating the need to forge a common ground.