| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Okay, I've been looking at the cauldron Hex all morning and I am getting my self in a real twist.
Cauldron (Ex): The witch receives Brew Potion as a bonus feat and a +4 insight bonus on Craft (alchemy) skill checks.
Am I right in thinking that that a character must qualify for the Brew potion feat, before they can take Cauldron, because the text ", even if he does not meet the prerequisites" is not included.
Am I right? Or have I missed something, and my dreams of potion creation are within my grasp.
Am I right in thinking that that a character must qualify for the Brew potion feat, before they can take Cauldron, because the text ", even if he does not meet the prerequisites" is not included.
That's the way I'd rule it. If a 1st-level witch took the cauldron hex, she'd get the Craft (alchemy) bonus. I'd let the bonus Brew Potion kick in automatically once the prereq was met.
By RAW, you would be right.
But I'd just let the witch have the feat. Even at level 1. Usually, a character will hardly have enough gold to make much use of it before level 3 anyway. And without the feat, the +4 alchemy bonus is kinda useless.
Certainly seems that way.
...the text ", even if he does not meet the prerequisites" is not included.
The hex is available to witches at level 1. There is no stipulation anywhere that s/he must meet prerequisites in order to take an ability as a class feature. And like someone else pointed out, how much brewing is a level 1 PC going to be doing?
I resent those who say otherwise; shame on you, you big meanies.
The point is if you look at any other example of bonus feats, the clause of 'does not need to meet any pre-requisites', is added in cases where you don't need em.
There are no examples of a bonus feat not needing pre-req's without explicitly saying so.
That being said...i'd let it happen. But i'd be ready for the PC's to have heaps of resources and not needing to rest so often.
The witch can specifically take cauldron at level 1 and brew potions at that level.
Much like the alchemist can.
The witch can specifically take cauldron at level 1 and brew potions at that level.
Much like the alchemist can.
Actually, it doesn't say specifically that the Witch doesn't need pre-req's. That's the point of this thread.
Have you got a reference that overrules this?
The witch can specifically take cauldron at level 1 and brew potions at that level.
Much like the alchemist can.
Actually, it doesn't say specifically that the Witch doesn't need pre-req's. That's the point of this thread.
Have you got a reference that overrules this?
Yeah I'm not doing the search for you -- it's been covered by JJ on these boards before.
Also:
1. There is no level minimum on the cauldron feat.
2. It's a bonus feat -- not a standard issue one.
IF it was limited -- say like the flight hex, or if it wasn't available at first level it would say so.
Very helpful. And it's not for me. And JJ's posts are hardly FAQ. His opinions are certainly more authorative than my opinion, but they're still his opinions. Unless he explicitly says that it will be included in errata.
Also:
1. No, but there's a minimum level for Brew Potion.
2. What's a 'standard issue' feat? Are you making up terms now?
a) It's a bonus feat.
b) All bonus feats say whether you require the pre-req's or not.
Once again, do you have any reference to actual rules that indicate otherwise?
As this is the 'Rules Questions' forum, mere conjecture doesn't really help.
If i'm wrong, i'm fine with that as i don't think the RAW is just in this circumstance, but it is the RAW.
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2. It's a bonus feat -- not a standard issue one.
That doesn't help. The fighter gets bonus feats, doesn't mention prerequisites, but must meet the prerequisites to take a combat feat.
edit:
Reply from Jason Bulmahn confirms that the witch does not have to meet the requirements for Brew Potion. It's curious that this was answered in the playtest but has not made it into the book or errata.
Very helpful. And it's not for me. And JJ's posts are hardly FAQ. His opinions are certainly more authorative than my opinion, but they're still his opinions. Unless he explicitly says that it will be included in errata.
Also:
1. No, but there's a minimum level for Brew Potion.
2. What's a 'standard issue' feat? Are you making up terms now?a) It's a bonus feat.
b) All bonus feats say whether you require the pre-req's or not.Once again, do you have any reference to actual rules that indicate otherwise?
As this is the 'Rules Questions' forum, mere conjecture doesn't really help.
If i'm wrong, i'm fine with that as i don't think the RAW is just in this circumstance, but it is the RAW.
Actually he specifically and explicitedly covered it out of opinion either right after it came out or during the playtest -- it was rather explicit though and not just "oh my opinion, as another guy is..." but rather "As the developer it is supposed to work like this" kind of answer...
But again I'm not doing the time or effort to search it out for you -- not to be a jerk but I already know it's there -- you want the answer you do the legwork ;D
2. It's a bonus feat -- not a standard issue one.That doesn't help. The fighter gets bonus feats, doesn't mention prerequisites, but must meet the prerequisites to take a combat feat.
edit:
Reply from Jason Bulmahn confirms that the witch does not have to meet the requirements for Brew Potion. It's curious that this was answered in the playtest but has not made it into the book or errata.
Probably a case like of too many fires to put out -- consider the number of times he's said that the arcane archer has a errata where the elf/half elf portion is gone but it hasn't made it into the actual errata yet despite him saying it each time before the new errata comes out.
Very helpful. And it's not for me. And JJ's posts are hardly FAQ. His opinions are certainly more authorative than my opinion, but they're still his opinions. Unless he explicitly says that it will be included in errata.
Also:
1. No, but there's a minimum level for Brew Potion.
2. What's a 'standard issue' feat? Are you making up terms now?a) It's a bonus feat.
b) All bonus feats say whether you require the pre-req's or not.Once again, do you have any reference to actual rules that indicate otherwise?
As this is the 'Rules Questions' forum, mere conjecture doesn't really help.
If i'm wrong, i'm fine with that as i don't think the RAW is just in this circumstance, but it is the RAW.
Actually he specifically and explicitedly covered it out of opinion either right after it came out or during the playtest -- it was rather explicit though and not just "oh my opinion, as another guy is..." but rather "As the developer it is supposed to work like this" kind of answer...
But again I'm not doing the time or effort to search it out for you -- not to be a jerk but I already know it's there -- you want the answer you do the legwork ;D
If this was something that kept coming up, i'd agree. As it is, i think you're missing the point of rules forums. Why bother saying 'it's true, but i can't be bothered demonstrating it'. Whatev's.
The sheer defiance over something so insignificant at 1st level staggers me. Just... wow.
Nowhere does it say "A witch must be at least 3rd level to select this hex." None of the hexes have that stipulation. NONE. WHY would you assume that the character doesn't get the full benefit of the CLASS FEATURE when it's chosen? Yeah, it's a class feature, that requires the expenditure of resources (likely gold) and time. Because brewing potions is so much better than having a favored enemy or rage.
I don't direct this irritation at any individual. I don't even look at your user names. The fact that it is being contested at all just gets under my skin. It's silly, really.
If this was something that kept coming up, i'd agree. As it is, i think you're missing the point of rules forums. Why bother saying 'it's true, but i can't be bothered demonstrating it'. Whatev's.
Because someone else already posted the link for you?
Look I told you to look -- why should I do your work for you?
You want the answer then seek it out -- and again I refer you to Starglim's post above mine.
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Reply from Jason Bulmahn confirms that the witch does not have to meet the requirements for Brew Potion. It's curious that this was answered in the playtest but has not made it into the book or errata.
Book or FAQ, I meant to say.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Whether or not she could use the feat, the feat is a bonus feat.
It is no different than having Power Attack and having below 13 STR due to something lowering your STR. You have the feat, but you can't use it.
There is no doubt you have the feat, just you may not be able to use it.
Whether or not she could use the feat, the feat is a bonus feat.
It is no different than having Power Attack and having below 13 STR due to something lowering your STR. You have the feat, but you can't use it.
There is no doubt you have the feat, just you may not be able to use it.
the Problem is it says Bonus feat but doesn't specify if it's free or pre-req required, like every other Bonus feat
(ones that need pre-reqs explicitly say so, ones that don't also explicitly say so)I believe the intention was that it didn't need pre-reqs.
it's one item creation feat at most 2 low-powered levels before you can get it normaly, not a big game breaker.
The sheer defiance over something so insignificant at 1st level staggers me. Just... wow.
Nowhere does it say "A witch must be at least 3rd level to select this hex." None of the hexes have that stipulation. NONE. WHY would you assume that the character doesn't get the full benefit of the CLASS FEATURE when it's chosen? Yeah, it's a class feature, that requires the expenditure of resources (likely gold) and time. Because brewing potions is so much better than having a favored enemy or rage.
I don't direct this irritation at any individual. I don't even look at your user names. The fact that it is being contested at all just gets under my skin. It's silly, really.
I am researching this, this for kingmaker. The witch I have in mind enters Kingmaker with 1005 gp and a +11 alchemy check. She successfully creates a first level potion on anything but a 1. That is potentially 40 potions of Cure light wounds. Forgive me if I take a moment to consider the game implications of a party of four members, each with ten potions of cure light wounds, before they even set out on their adventures.
Now, I actually have no intention of abusing it that hard, because it would make the game less fun for me, and the rest of the group, but all the same, i don't think that we are talking about an insignificant ruling here.
With regards to the help you have all provided, thank you.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I believe the intention was that it didn't need pre-reqs.
You sort of missed my point.
By RAW, you have the feat whether or not you can skip the pre-reqs.
If you insert text (such as "ignore prereqs" because your DM believes the intent was to skip pre-reqs) then you can use the feat.
If you play RAW, then you have the feat but you can't use it until you meet the pre-reqs.
Does it now make sense? I'm sorry I didn't make my post more clear.
I am researching this, this for kingmaker. The witch I have in mind enters Kingmaker with 1005 gp and a +11 alchemy check. She successfully creates a first level potion on anything but a 1. That is potentially 40 potions of Cure light wounds. Forgive me if I take a moment to consider the game implications of a party of four members, each with ten potions of cure light wounds, before they even set out on their adventures.
AFAR skill checks do not have automatic failure on 1. So with +11 bonus and a roll of 1 it still is 12, and if I calculated correctly DC should be 11 (base 5, +5 for lack of actual spell, +1 for potion CL). Unless I missed a magic item creation rull specifically stating failure on 1?
Now, I actually have no intention of abusing it that hard, because it would make the game less fun for me, and the rest of the group, but all the same, i don't think that we are talking about an insignificant ruling here.
If the witch decides to use up all her starting funds to make potions the party will have some advantage at the start but I don't think that is too much unbalancing - and a little more healing at the start of Kingmaker will be helpful. Also note that funds spend on item creation are funds not spend on another equipment, which might be important if you want to focus on initial exploration with such nuances as food, water and survival needs.
I am researching this, this for kingmaker. The witch I have in mind enters Kingmaker with 1005 gp and a +11 alchemy check. She successfully creates a first level potion on anything but a 1. That is potentially 40 potions of Cure light wounds. Forgive me if I take a moment to consider the game implications of a party of four members, each with ten potions of cure light wounds, before they even set out on their adventures.
AFAR skill checks do not have automatic failure on 1. So with +11 bonus and a roll of 1 it still is 12, and if I calculated correctly DC should be 11 (base 5, +5 for lack of actual spell, +1 for potion CL). Unless I missed a magic item creation rull specifically stating failure on 1?
This specific witch is going to be know cure light wounds as one of it's starting wounds. Do the DC is 6, i did ofcause forget the skills don't auto fail.(kind of wish that attacks and skills could behave consistently, would save confusion.)
If the witch decides to use up all her starting funds to make potions the party will have some advantage at the start but I don't think that is too much unbalancing - and a little more healing at the start of Kingmaker will be helpful. Also note that funds spend on item creation are funds not spend on another equipment, which might be important if you want to focus on initial exploration with such nuances as food, water and survival needs.
Now, I actually have no intention of abusing it that hard, because it would make the game less fun for me, and the rest of the group, but all the same, i don't think that we are talking about an insignificant ruling here.
Such niceties can be covered with fair ease by use of survival, and there are very few items a 1-st level witch needs save a spell component pouch, which they can purchase with the five left over.
If the idea is too much healing ie potions of CLW, would it be similar if the witch selected the healing hex.......
I also disagree about what a witch needs!
If the idea is too much healing ie potions of CLW, would it be similar if the witch selected the healing hex.......
I also disagree about what a witch needs!
You can do both. Though the healing hex is much less disruptive.
If the idea is too much healing ie potions of CLW, would it be similar if the witch selected the healing hex.......
I also disagree about what a witch needs!
What does a first level witch need?
click on Barnabus and find out!
If the idea is too much healing ie potions of CLW, would it be similar if the witch selected the healing hex.......
I also disagree about what a witch needs!
+1. If the witch poured all of their resources into those CLWs, and then needed a dagger...
All for the want of a horseshoe nail...
If the idea is too much healing ie potions of CLW, would it be similar if the witch selected the healing hex.......
I also disagree about what a witch needs!
+1. If the witch poured all of their resources into those CLWs, and then needed a dagger...
All for the want of a horseshoe nail...
You mean a dagger they will without doubt be able to aquire within almost no time, and with great ease?
Just to belabour the point a little. change from pioneer, to brigand, rather than a horse, a spell compents pouch and 40 PoCLW, we can have a horse, a spell compents pouch, 25gp worth of tat and 40 PoCLW.
I am not doing this, but the point is that 40 PoCLW is hardly an insignificant addition to a party of first level characters.
The actual equipment list is going to be much more like:-
Wagon
2 x light horses
saddle, bit and bridle
2 x cold weather cloths
2 x times explorers outfits
25 days common food supplies for four people.
lantern hooded + 10 pints of oil
flint and steel
100 torches
50' silk rope
Locked chest(average)
Ioun Torch
Bandage of rapid healing
4 potions of cure light wounds
spell component pouch
Plus 265gp
wrote stuff...
That's a hell of a change from the original conceit, but these arguments always end up a shifting target. Either way, 1,000 GP of commodities is different than 1,000 GP of magical gear.
But 40 Potions of CLW, while annoying, would not seriously effect they way I ran things against the party, with the possible exception that once the bandits in the early stages of Kingmaker find out about all that loot, the witch becomes a target.
Seems cauldron gives you Brew Potion. You can pick the cauldron hex at 1st. Therefore you can get Brew Potion at 1st instead of 3rd. If the intention was that you couldn't brew potions till 3rd they would have not allowed you to take this hex till 3rd.
The argument about other bonus feat saying you can ignore the pre-requisites doesn't really apply here because that's specific to the ranger. A better way to look at is the Wizard bonus feat that allow them to take item creation feats but specifically calls out that they need the pre-requisites before they can take them. The Witch does not mention this so I'd say they do get brew potion 1st if they take the cauldron hex.
Ah, my stupidity laid bare for all to see, and learn from...
Seems cauldron gives you Brew Potion. You can pick the cauldron hex at 1st. Therefore you can get Brew Potion at 1st instead of 3rd. If the intention was that you couldn't brew potions till 3rd they would have not allowed you to take this hex till 3rd.
The argument about other bonus feat saying you can ignore the pre-requisites doesn't really apply here because that's specific to the ranger. A better way to look at is the Wizard bonus feat that allow them to take item creation feats but specifically calls out that they need the pre-requisites before they can take them. The Witch does not mention this so I'd say they do get brew potion 1st if they take the cauldron hex.
Actually it is used in every case I can find where a feat becomes available before it would normally be so, including brew potion, in the case of the alchemist. Other examples are the ranger and the Zen archer monk.
Ah, my stupidity laid bare for all to see, and learn from...
Remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid rules.
;)
Thanks Sean!
Ah, my stupidity laid bare for all to see, and learn from...
Think of it as of your contribution of development and clarification of the game instead :)
In fairness, I do think of it that way, but it's not as amusing ;)
You are answering ghosts from over eight years ago.
This is a necro thread, let it die.