Some questions I had now that we played our first Pathfinder game.
We made camp. My rogue was up for watch and I wanted to be in a hidden position. The GM didnt think I could take 20 for that because I wouldnt know how good a spot I had. I think thats wrong. What do you guys think?
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Per the RAW, you can't take 20 on a stealth check, as failure carries a penalty (being spotted). However, it's definitely open to interpretation as to whether that's a penalty, and a very lenient GM might allow you to "take 20" on a stealth check, with the idea of it being entrenching yourself in a good hiding spot. However, the idea behind taking 20 is that you try it 20 times, eventually getting it right. If you try to hide 20 times, you're going to have the success of your most recent attempt. That is, the benefit of a stealth attempt isn't cumulative with other attempts, like attempting to plow a field with Profession (Farmer) would be.
Your DM would have to be pretty lenient to allow it, I'd say.
Disable Device is mentioned to be a secret GM roll. BUT if you fail a Disable Device by 4 or less you can roll again. If its secret how are you suppose to know what you failed by?
Just because you don't know the roll doesn't mean you don't know the result. You might have failed by one, so the GM announces, "Nothing happens," or you might fail by five, at which point the GM might announce, "You successfully disable the trap." But in reality, you only thought you had because you botched it. A gear you'd wedged becomes unwedged when you activate the pressure plate triggering the trap, and you get attacked. ;-)
Does that make sense?
Something that has bothered me in every version of D&D...players are talking to someone or thing and not sure if a fight will happen. The players or monsters will then 'ready' an attack if the sheet hits the fane. This causes all kinds of odd initiative problems. I would like players to just wait until the fight starts and then rely on Init roll to really see who gets the jump on who. How have you guys handled this?
You cannot ready an action out of combat. Players will need to wait until their turn in the initiative order. From a logic standpoint, being able to ready out of combat would be incredibly pointless. **Everyone** would ready and you'd just be done to initiative order, anyway, but the idea of the initiative order is "Who is the fastest and who acts first?" You might have been planning to shoot that spellcaster, but if he beats your initiative, he acted so quickly you didn't have time to hit him before he finished his spell.
That's initiative.
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You cannot ready an action out of combat. Players will need to wait until their turn in the initiative order. From a logic standpoint, being able to ready out of combat would be incredibly pointless. **Everyone** would ready and you'd just be done to initiative order, anyway, but the idea of the initiative order is "Who is the fastest and who acts first?" You might have been planning to shoot that spellcaster, but if he beats your initiative, he acted so quickly you didn't have time to hit him before he finished his spell.
Except that initiative is metagaming -- it places an order on things which are actually happening simultaneously. We use initiative so that our game system can make some kind of order out of the chaos of combat, but actions are not really happening in order. This is why the GM is always free to ignore initiative and rule that two actions happen simultaneously. The 3.5e DMG gives examples of when to do this on pp 24-25, but I haven't seen similar guidance in any of the PRPG materials.
3. You can't ready outside of combat.
I am not exactly sure that this interpretation is correct. The official rules do not mention this specifically and I can think of several situations where you can take a readied action outside of combat. For instance, a rogue hiding next to a door could ready an action to stab anything that walks through the door. He could theoretically sit there for 100 rounds before combat actually begins.
In the last session I played in two groups were negotiating a hostage situation through a barred door. The sorceror readied an action to cast "knock," and the enemy archers readied actions to shoot the first thing that came through the door. Both actions were readied before combat began.
If, however, two groups were engaged in a parley like the one the OP described, assuming they are all out in the open then readied actions would become irrelevant since everyone indeed has a readied action of some kind. In this situation I would rule that everyone has delayed actions and the first person to start combat would go first in the initiative order e.g. the dwarven fighter has had enough talk and takes a swipe at the orc chieftan.
From the SRD:
"Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round."
We made camp. My rogue was up for watch and I wanted to be in a hidden position. The GM didnt think I could take 20 for that because I wouldnt know how good a spot I had. I think thats wrong. What do you guys think?
As a GM, I would only allow taking 20 on a stealth check to hide if the hider had a helper searching for her and was able to report on how well hidden she was. (The helper might have to take 20 to perceive her - making for a very long hiding process.)
3. You can't ready outside of combat.
I am not exactly sure that this interpretation is correct. The official rules do not mention this specifically and I can think of several situations where you can take a readied action outside of combat. For instance, a rogue hiding next to a door could ready an action to stab anything that walks through the door. He could theoretically sit there for 100 rounds before combat actually begins.
In the last session I played in two groups were negotiating a hostage situation through a barred door. The sorceror readied an action to cast "knock," and the enemy archers readied actions to shoot the first thing that came through the door. Both actions were readied before combat began.
If, however, two groups were engaged in a parley like the one the OP described, assuming they are all out in the open then readied actions would become irrelevant since everyone indeed has a readied action of some kind. In this situation I would rule that everyone has delayed actions and the first person to start combat would go first in the initiative order e.g. the dwarven fighter has had enough talk and takes a swipe at the orc chieftan.
From the SRD:
"Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can...
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Readying actions outside of combat is how the DM sets up ambushes. Imagine the orcs hiding in the undergrowth in the forest when the PCs walk by. They are hidden, and the PCs all fail their moderately difficult perception checks. If you say there are no readied actions, then you would ask your PCs to roll initiative. If your entire party rolls higher than your orcs... They're going to be very confused.
Paladin: "I draw my sword and look around."
DM: "You see the same bushes you noticed while walking down the path."
Paladin: "...I use detect evil on the nearest tree...? [evil treant?]"
Your orcs attack first because they had a readied action. They make their attack, and once it is resolved (unless a PC has some ability that allows them to act in surprise rounds) then you ask for initiative.
We made camp. My rogue was up for watch and I wanted to be in a hidden position. The GM didnt think I could take 20 for that because I wouldnt know how good a spot I had. I think thats wrong. What do you guys think?
Your DM is right. Taking 20 means no consequence for failure (other than simple failure) and being spotted is definitely a consequence. What the DM should do, if the PC has enough time, is give a circumstance bonus to the stealth check.
Something that has bothered me in every version of D&D...players are talking to someone or thing and not sure if a fight will happen. The players or monsters will then 'ready' an attack if the sheet hits the fane. This causes all kinds of odd initiative problems. I would like players to just wait until the fight starts and then rely on Init roll to really see who gets the jump on who. How have you guys handled this?
You really can't ready while doing other things of substance. If you ready a crossbow to shoot the first enemy through the door, that's what you're doing. You're not exploring a dungeon. I know you can figure out the "action" you're using in the rules, but does it really make sense to say you've got a set of constantly readied actions all the time? No.
Ready and Delay are special initiative actions.
Now a character could be waiting 'at the ready' out of combat for something to happen.
What you, and many other people confuse for readied actions are surprise actions.
From the SRD:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
AND
Special Initiative Actions: Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
Ready and Delay are special initiative actions.
Now a character could be waiting 'at the ready' out of combat for something to happen.
What you, and many other people confuse for readied actions are surprise actions.
Notice that the SRD says that special initiative actions are "ways to change when you act during combat."
There is nothing in that description that implies you can only ready an action after combat has begun.
Waiting "at the ready," is a readied action. In the above example of the rogue waiting next to the door, yes, his readied action may, in fact occur in the surprise round, but it is still a readied action. Now when the enemies walk through the door it does not matter if they are suprised or not. The rogue may act first in the initiative order by attacking a surprised opponent or he may act after combat has begun, depending on the circumstances. Even if they are fully aware of the rogue his attack will interrupt whoever is walking through the door assuming that he does not change his course of action.
In fact the oft-cited example for a readied action is that of a goblin waiting on a ledge ready to push a boulder on top of PCs as they pass below.
This is especially true in the second example that I cited of the two groups on opposite sides of the door. In this scenario there is not surprise round since both groups are aware of eachother, yet before combat begins several participants have readied actions.
Your DM is right. Taking 20 means no consequence for failure (other than simple failure) and being spotted is definitely a consequence. What the DM should do, if the PC has enough time, is give a circumstance bonus to the stealth check.
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When you are hiding you never know how well you are hidden, though you can get modifiers for certain conditions. For instance, improved cover provides a +10 to stealth checks, so if you jumped inside a hollowed out oak tree then you would have a significant bonus to stealth.
I think that what you were trying to get at originally was that there are ways to improve your chances of "not being seen." For more information you can consult this H.M. Government Service Film on "HOW NOT TO BE SEEN,"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ
On 'readying' outside of combat.
I only allow this, or do it myself, if someone is not aware of someone else. In essence, you can ready a surprise round action.
If aware of the other person, then its up to initiative. Initiative measures quickness of response, so thats the mechanic I use when one is aware of another.
For instance, if two groups are aware of each other and facing off, then initiative will determine who acts first, not who 'declares' an action first. Even if the dwarf fighter has decided hes had enough of parlay and decides to take a swipe, the kobold rogue might be quick enough to see the dwarf start to make an attack and react before the dwarf can pull it off. Thats what initiative is all about.
Now if the kobold were unaware of the dwarf, then the dwarf would have a surprise round action available and could take a standard action prior to the kobold gaining a chance to join initiative. In fact, the dwarf could take any number of actions so long as the kobold remained unaware (the dwarf could drink a potion, stow his axe, pull out his crossbow, load his crossbow, and ready a shot against the kobold for when the kobold draws a weapon)
However, a blanket ready action isn't really possible. I.e. I will sit here and ready to shoot whatever walks through the door, even if there is no sign that anybody is likely to walk through the door in the near future. Without perceiving a likely opponent somehow, you can't really be readied to shoot them. For instance, someone could stealth up to the door and become aware of you just as soon as you become aware of them, and then initiative would take over. See, the stealthing guy might be able to react to your levelled bow before you can react to seeing him for the first time. And initiative would be used to figure that out.
(If you knew someone was coming through the door, say be making a perception check to hear them approaching or by having seen them in the hallway, then I'd give the readied action to shoot them first.)
Oh, the 'readied' action problem. This was a favorite of my group, when a player constantly said 'I'm ready if something attacks me.' Gah.
This became an even bigger problem because the previous DM of the group had ruled that the players could 'all go together' if they knew about the bad guys before hand, and so they would all try to move simultaneously through the door in a typical dungeon door breach scenario. Ahem. No. If someone needs to be a human shield for another character, then there's a way to represent that with delays and readies.
The way initiative works is that it IS a game function so that ONE character acts at a time, effectively. It's there so we don't yell at each other, and so that folks don't try to jump when there's the first mention of something that might be combat and yell "I attack first!"
Now, from my interpretation, it's perfectly acceptable to ready actions before combat, even to the point of 'refocusing' initiative so that everyone acts at the same count, effectively. Effectively, once one side is aware of the other, 'combat' can start, meaning initiative can be rolled.
That means that they party can plan the order that they want to go through door, only if they are aware of combatants on the other side (this is the concept of the breach team, which is effective, but dangerous against a prepared opponent). Otherwise, it's a function of speed and luck (i.e. initiative). Now, if the other side inside is aware, they have just as much time to prepare and ready actions, meaning that the party could come under fire the moment someone came through the door. A not unreasonable scenario. Initiatives would get intermixed as people triggered readied or delayed actions and the combat round goes as normal. Or the party massed around the door gets hit by a readied fireball. This works well, and having coordinated enemy fire (from positions of cover and concealment) really dissuaded my party from trying the door breach method, particularly if there's a large number of combatants in the room and they spread out their attacks (i.e. first in the door, second, etc.).
The initiative rules handle these situations quite well, if you follow them.
Now as for a parley, if everyone was out in the open, it would be VERY obvious if someone was readying an attack (at least without stealth or bluff or distance). Remember that readying an action means that there needs to be a triggering event or circumstance (stated by the controller of the character) and if the event does not happen, then the character does not act.
If two people ready actions to attack if the other does, then no one attacks.
Now, assuming there's a trigger that allows them to attack (like when the leader says 'Plum Wine'), there would be bluffs, sense motives and other signs in a parley that folks are getting ready to attack (moving into place, since movement is limited, readying weapons, etc.). In a way, it becomes a surprise round, but instead of perception vs. stealth, it might be sense motive vs. bluff or other rolls. And any time outside of initiative that folks are trying to get the upper hand on the others would call for an initiative roll. Some characters might react while others are stuck dumbfounded as their allies and opponents suddenly open up on each other. Heck, if it's subtle enough, some of the attackers might not know there's going to be an attack (also a function of the bluff skill).
The person that declares first doesn't necessarily go first, either. It's that moment when all heck breaks loose, and the gunfighter draws, but maybe someone is faster on the draw. It's the point of initiative rolls and the worth of feats like improved initiative or the inquisitor's bonus, allowing you to react to events while they're happening simultaneously from the point of game time, but one at a time from initiative. So I think in the case of the parley, it would be more of an attempt to surprise than a case of readied actions.
On 'readying' outside of combat.
I only allow this, or do it myself, if someone is not aware of someone else. In essence, you can ready a surprise round action.
I allow it a little more liberally. Say a group of bandits get the drop of the players, and that have them surrounded with crossbows aimed at the PC. I would count them as being readied even though the player know they are there. If the PC make any threatening action, they will shoot, then combat will begin normally(IE their readied action takes the place of their surprise round action). If the players spot them before they can spring the ambush, then you have a normal surprise round.
To me the key with readying an action, is that you are assuming a very obviously threatening posture. There is no way to aim a crossbow or point your sword at someone's chest and pretend you are not being hostile or threatening. If you are holding a weapon, but not aiming it at someone, then you do not have a readied action.
As for the other. No you cannot take a 20 on stealth, but having lots of time to setup a hiding spot would be a decent circumstance bonus.
stuff..
I think what James meant to say is that when you ready an action for an expected event outside of combat, (ie. the rogue waiting to strike the first person to come through the door) this allows them to initiate combat by opening with a surprise round.
Delaying your action allows you to go on someone elses initiative. ie. maybe i want to charge immediately after my party wizard casts a fireball but I rolled a higher initiative so i need to delay my action so my position on the initiative list is lower than the wizards.
Readying an action in combat is delaying your initiative for a specific condition to be met. ie. waiting for the ENEMY wizard to start casting so I can attempt to interrupt his spell and force a concentration check if i successfuly hit him. In this scenario the player is forgoing his initiative for the sake of a readied response to someone elses action.
That is why they are special initiative actions that change when you act.
When you act out of combat and prepare to ambush the enemy this does not push you to the top of the initiative list, it simply allows you to act in the surprise round because you have successfully caught a group of NPC's unaware.
On 'readying' outside of combat....
Yes, usually a readied action outside of combat is a surprise action, however there are certain circumstances where a readied action can be taken before combat when there is no surprise round.
From the SRD:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
If you are reading the rules to the letter, then yes, you could surmise that you cannot ready an action before combat since you cannot take a readied action until "after your turn is over." Frankly the wording is vague. It almost seems that by this rationale you could complete your turn and then prepare a readied action which is ridiculous since you could concievable act twice in a round that way. e.g. "I hit the goblin with my sword and then I take a readied action to hit him with my sword if he moves." Technically this is possible, but only if you prepare a free action as a readied action. i.e. "I hit the goblin with my sword and I prepare to yell 'incoming,' if any other goblins enter the room."
However, a blanket ready action isn't really possible. I.e. I will sit here and ready to shoot whatever walks through the door, even if there is no sign that anybody is likely to walk through the door in the near future. Without perceiving a likely opponent somehow, you can't really be readied to shoot them. For instance, someone could stealth up to the door and become aware of you just as soon as you become aware of them, and then initiative would take over. See, the stealthing guy might be able to react to your levelled bow before you can react to seeing him for the first time. And initiative would be used to figure that out.
I agree...to a point. Yes it is unlikely that someone would or could have enough discipline to cover a door with a bow for a long period of time without a reason, however, if you consider that loading is a free action it is entirely possible that a sentry could be given instructions to "shoot anything that comes through this door on sight," and prepare and hold a readied action indefinitely.
In the example above with the two groups on opposite sides of a door the readied actions were taken before combat began, while both sides were aware of eachother. If I am reading correctly it seems like you are suggesting that someone could barge into a room with half a dozen archers poised to shoot at the door and somehow complete his action without them shooting him full of arrows.
It all really boils down to an "if," statement that creates a constraint. You cannot get the jump on someone unless you are prepared to limit yourself to a single standard action. "If I see something come through this door, then I shoot." In the "stealth," example if the archers succeed on their perception checks then they shoot, regardless of whether or not the stealther sees them. If they fail they do not shoot since they have not seen anyone come through the door. The rogue on the other hand is bound by no constraint and can take a full action but he will act after the archers if he is discovered.
On a side note, enemy's should not be getting the surprise round unless they legitimately catch the players unaware. A soldier who walks up to a player part and then attacks unprovoked does not get a surprise action since both party's are aware of one another.
Now if the NPC bluffs the party into having a false sense of security I might allow it but the party would have to be fairly naive and unaware of their surroundings. This of course works both ways.
I allow it a little more liberally. Say a group of bandits get the drop of the players, and that have them surrounded with crossbows aimed at the PC. I would count them as being readied even though the player know they are there. If the PC make any threatening action, they will shoot, then combat will begin normally(IE their readied action takes the place of their surprise round action). If the players spot them before they can spring the ambush, then you have a normal surprise round.
To me the key with readying an action, is that you are assuming a very obviously threatening posture. There is no way to aim a crossbow or point your sword at someone's chest and pretend you are not being hostile or threatening. If you are holding a weapon, but not aiming it at someone, then you do not have a readied action.
I think that you could ready an attack without being too obvious (a dagger up a sleeve, or the classic hidden sword or gun technique).
But as for the group of bandits above, effectively, they could have already rolled initiative and if they remain out of perception, then have a surprise round, refocusing to act at the same time, or rather one right after the other (I go after Joe-Bob!). Basically, the surprise round happens when one side finally reveals itself.
What I don't like is that I think that initiative goes a little by-the-board in these situations (one side goes, and then the other, without readying or delaying actions to break it up). It works, but it's boring and can cause some extreme tactics.
I miss the days of rolling initiative every round. Sigh.
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From Iron Heroes:
"Take 10/20: In nonstressful situations, you can take 10 or 20 on a Hide check. For example, if you have sufficient time to gather camouflage and pick a good spot for an ambush, you could take 20 on a Hide check. You cannot take 10 or 20 if you move while hiding.
Take 10/20: You cannot normally take 10 or 20 on a Move Silently check. Using this skill is always a stressful situation."
But as for the group of bandits above, effectively, they could have already rolled initiative and if they remain out of perception, then have a surprise round, refocusing to act at the same time, or rather one right after the other (I go after Joe-Bob!). Basically, the surprise round happens when one side finally reveals itself.What I don't like is that I think that initiative goes a little by-the-board in these situations (one side goes, and then the other, without readying or delaying actions to break it up). It works, but it's boring and can cause some extreme tactics.
I miss the days of rolling initiative every round. Sigh.
They could have stayed out of sight and ambushed the players, but instead they decide to negotiate at crossbow point. In essence, they still have the drop on the players, and the bandits are all readied to attack the players if they make an aggressive action.
If you can't ready actions outside of combat, then it becomes impossible to have gunpoint(or crossbow point) diplomacy. Someone could be holding a crossbow point blank to your head, and without a readied action, all you have to do is beat them in initiative and you can can do whatever you want for 6 seconds before they can pull the trigger. I find it really hard to buy that someone could move 30 feet and stab my friend before I could pull the trigger in that situation.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The game needs some sort of mechanic whereby an armed party can (a) get the drop on a bunch of characters who weren't expecting a combat, or (b) threaten a coup de grace on a helpless hostage.
In either case, the mechanics should allow for the disadvantaged party to still feint (a move action) but not attack (a standard action).
The game needs some sort of mechanic whereby an armed party can (a) get the drop on a bunch of characters who weren't expecting a combat, or (b) threaten a coup de grace on a helpless hostage.
In either case, the mechanics should allow for the disadvantaged party to still feint (a move action) but not attack (a standard action).
Allowing readied actions outside of combat allows A to happen. If one side has weapons drawn and aimed, they are essentially readied to attack. If both sides have weapons drawn and aimed, then it is combat as normal.
B only works if you can ready an action to CDG. There was a feat that in 3.5 let you CDG as a standard action. Combine that with readied actions outside of combat and you have a way to simulate hostage situations.
Alternately, CDG is a full round action because you have to reach over to the helpless target, grab them, then make you attack. With house rules you can say that if you are already grappling your target, CDG is only a standard action.
Why can't you take 20 on a hide check? Someone beating your DC is not a failure. If you roll a 1, nothing bad happens to you. And I very much disagree that you will not know that you have a bad hiding spot. Have you never played hide and seek and thought to yourself "I'm in a crappy spot?" I know I have. Taking 20 is just taking your time to make sure you get it right. If you can take 20 to look for something (you wont know its there since you missed it the first time) I see no reason to not be able to take 20 on Hide. You are not in a stressful situation, and nothing bad will happen to you if you roll a 1.
As for readying an action out of combat, I argue that you can. Nothing says what causes initiative to start. Players can be in initiative and ready an action every round of every day if they want to (barring sleep). I would handle it with a simple suprise round in which your players delay to the order that they want. If the enemies are not suprized, they get to act in the suprize round and may be delaying themselves.
The GM didnt think I could take 20 for that because I wouldnt know how good a spot I had. I think thats wrong. What do you guys think?
Taking 20 on a stealth check usually doesn't work, since there is a clear penalty for failing - you are noticed, which means you cannot attempt to hide again.
While allowing someone to take 20 while not being observed yet might sound okay at first, be aware that this would make ambushes super nasty. And in a lot of games, those happen more often to the party than to enemies, so asking for this rule might seriously screw you over on the rebound, as what's good for the goose is good for the gander, i.e. if you can use it, so can the GM...
Disable Device is mentioned to be a secret GM roll. BUT if you fail a Disable Device by 4 or less you can roll again. If its secret how are you suppose to know what you failed by?
That's the point of secret rolls: You don't know whether you succeeded or not. Of course, if you fail by 5 or more, the trap goes off and you'll notice.
Personally, I'd tell players whether they succeeded. Perception checks to notice the traps is one thing, but disabling them should, in my opinion, something the success of which should be obvious.
Or, as a middle ground, you get to know about it if you succeed by 5 or more.
Something that has bothered me in every version of D&D...players are talking to someone or thing and not sure if a fight will happen. The players or monsters will then 'ready' an attack if the sheet hits the fane. This causes all kinds of odd initiative problems. I would like players to just wait until the fight starts and then rely on Init roll to really see who gets the jump on who. How have you guys handled this?
Reading actions is for when combat has already started.
Look at it that way: If you could ready actions at any time, everyone would always have one readied. And then how to resolve who gets to do his first? Right: Initiative.
So go straight ahead roll initiative as soon as anyone wants to start fighting, and then start fighting, complete with readied actions and whatnot.
A similar thing I have encountered several times was "calling actions" before combat.
Example: Party encounters evil warrior type lounging on a divan, some pre-violence talk ensues and one player just states "I disintegrate him".
He was getting angry when I called for initiative. He thought he could "call" initiative and get to go first because his mouth was the fastest.
I need to mention that the player in question was at that time more than old enough to drink alcohol, operate automobiles, and vote (let's hope not in that order).
The guy's waiting for combat to break out just as everyone else. Having the fastest reaction and going first in a fight is what initiative's all about.
In retrospect, I should have let him get a way with him - and then included a dozen or so assassins who all "call" death attack on his character, to show him the error of his ways. But I'm way too kind.
P.S.
the sheet hits the fane.
I cannot condone defacing any kind of holy place with excrement!
Why can't you take 20 on a hide check?
Several reasons
1) What you are trying to say is that if you have two minutes to spaer you automatically get a +20 to your check. This is not reasonable. For instance if you are trying to hide behind a dungeon wall or under a table all the time in the world is not going to give you a +20 bonus to stealth. Now, on the other hand, if you are in the woods and you have an hour to camoflage yourself, pick a stable spot in the trees, etc. you would get some nice conditional modifiers.
2) Stealth is unpredictable. There is a lot that can go wrong. For instance you might get in your hiding spot paint your skin black, etc. and then lay a big old fart. Shit happens, excuse the pun.
3) Stealth is an opposed check. You could argue that if you can take 20 on stealth then someone can take 20 to notice you. Which is just plain wacky.
Reading actions is for when combat has already started.
Look at it that way: If you could ready actions at any time, everyone would always have one readied. And then how to resolve who...
I usually agree with you on most stuff Kae. This time I dont.
It all really boils down to an "if," statement that creates a constraint. You cannot get the jump on someone unless you are prepared to limit yourself to a single standard action. "If I see something come through this door, then I shoot." In the "stealth," example if the archers succeed on their perception checks then they shoot, regardless of whether or not the stealther sees them. If they fail they do not shoot since they have not seen anyone come through the door. The rogue on the other hand is bound by no constraint and can take a full action but he will act after the archers if he is discovered.
Please explain how you would adjudicate the situation above. What action is the archer taking? How could the rogue possibly act before the archer in this situation other than stealthing past the door?
Look at it that way: If you could ready actions at any time, everyone would always have one readied. And then how to resolve who gets to do his first? Right: Initiative.
So go straight ahead roll initiative as soon as anyone wants to start fighting, and then start fighting, complete with readied actions and whatnot.
A similar thing I have encountered several times was "calling actions" before combat.
Example: Party encounters evil warrior type lounging on a divan, some pre-violence talk ensues and one player just states "I disintegrate him".
He was getting angry when I called for initiative. He thought he could "call" initiative and get to go first because his mouth was the fastest.
I need to mention that the player in question was at that time more than old enough to drink alcohol, operate automobiles, and vote (let's hope not in that order).
The guy's waiting for combat to break out just as everyone else. Having the fastest reaction and going first in a fight is what initiative's all about.
In retrospect, I should have let him get a way with him - and then included a dozen or so assassins who all "call" death attack on his character, to show him the error of his ways. But I'm way too kind.
Reading an action all the time is not possible. You can't just say I ready to attack the next enemy I see, all the time. Define enemy. Even a player readying an action to attack the next thing that comes around the corner could be really bad.
DM - You hear the sound of several feet running toward you around the corner...
Player - I ready to attack the first thing that comes around the corner.
DM - Ok, the princess you are trying to save comes running around the corner followed by 10 orcs chasing her, make your attack roll.
Nothing says you can't ready an action all the time, but you are basically spending your entire life on a hair trigger. Try walking around with a 100 pound pull bow nocked and drawn all the time. Having the bow nocked is not enough to qualify for being readied, you have to literally be a heartbeat from letting loose your attack. That means you have to have your weapon drawn, aimed, and ready to attack your target.
Further, you are constrained by the if part of the readied action. Do you actually let you players ready actions in combat with ifs like "If the enemiy wizard over there casts a spell, or if the warrior there dwars their sword, or if the cleric moves toward me, I shoot them."
Why can't you take 20 on a hide check?Several reasons
1) What you are trying to say is that if you have two minutes to spaer you automatically get a +20 to your check. This is not reasonable. For instance if you are trying to hide behind a dungeon wall or under a table all the time in the world is not going to give you a +20 bonus to stealth. Now, on the other hand, if you are in the woods and you have an hour to camoflage yourself, pick a stable spot in the trees, etc. you would get some nice conditional modifiers.
2) Stealth is unpredictable. There is a lot that can go wrong. For instance you might get in your hiding spot paint your skin black, etc. and then lay a big old fart. s#%* happens, excuse the pun.
3) Stealth is an opposed check. You could argue that if you can take 20 on stealth then someone can take 20 to notice you. Which is just plain wacky.
1. No, I am saying they can take 2 minutes instead of 6 seconds to get a +10. You can take 10 on stealth checks. Conditional modifiers are different. The roll is your ability to stealth. It doesn't matter what is arround in the rules, your ability to stealth in any valid place is roughly the same. Its how skilled you are that makes the difference, and if you can take your time to do something, by the rules, you can perform at your personal peak.
2. Ok, you have some arguement here, but that 2 minutes is spent getting comfortable so things like that don't happen. Making sure you have a comfortable position so you back does not cramp up but you still have a view. Making sure your not sitting on your foor so it does not go to sleep when you need it. That is what taking 20 is.
3. Funny you say this, since perception is one of the things listed explicitly in the examples for taking 20.
And yes, I know this allows the GM to set up ambushes, and yes, as a player I prefer it that way. It allows the GM to send not horribly overpowered monsters at the players but the monsters will still be able to get the suprize. Without this, the twinked out perception checks the PCs have will trivially be able to spot the ambushers, forcing the GM to up their level for them to be able to hide.
Look at it that way: If you could ready actions at any time, everyone would always have one readied. And then how to resolve who gets to do his first? Right: Initiative.
So go straight ahead roll initiative as soon as anyone wants to start fighting, and then start fighting, complete with readied actions and whatnot.
A similar thing I have encountered several times was "calling actions" before combat.
Example: Party encounters evil warrior type lounging on a divan, some pre-violence talk ensues and one player just states "I disintegrate him".
He was getting angry when I called for initiative. He thought he could "call" initiative and get to go first because his mouth was the fastest.
I need to mention that the player in question was at that time more than old enough to drink alcohol, operate automobiles, and vote (let's hope not in that order).
The guy's waiting for combat to break out just as everyone else. Having the fastest reaction and going first in a fight is what initiative's all about.
In retrospect, I should have let him get a way with him - and then included a dozen or so assassins who all "call" death attack on his character, to show him the error of his ways. But I'm way too kind.
Reading an action all the time is not possible. You can't just say I ready to attack the next enemy I see, all the time. Define enemy. Even a player readying an action to attack the next thing that comes around the corner could be really bad.
DM - You hear the sound of several feet running toward you around the corner...
Player - I ready to attack the first thing that comes around the corner.
DM - Ok, the princess you are trying to save comes running around the corner followed by 10 orcs chasing her, make your attack roll.
Nothing says you can't ready an action all the time, but you are basically spending your entire life on a hair trigger. Try walking around with a 100 pound pull bow nocked and drawn all the time. Having the bow nocked is not enough to...
Done that. Killed the princess. It was the GMs way of teaching us it was a bad idea. It caused us to move to standard door opening proceedure 4.
1. No, I am saying they can take 2 minutes instead of 6 seconds to get a +10. You can take 10 on stealth checks. Conditional modifiers are different. The roll is your ability to stealth. It doesn't matter what is arround in the rules, your ability to stealth in any valid place is roughly the same. Its how skilled you are that makes the difference, and if you can take your time to do something, by the rules, you can perform at your personal peak.
Where we disagree here is that you seem to believe that additional time will make a difference in whether or not you will avoid being observed. I refuse to believe that if you put someone in a typical american kitchen, for example, that two minutes to think long and hard about what you are going to do is going to equate to a MASSIVE bonus to your stealth check. The two minutes may be the wherewithal you need to climb into a cabinet but in this case I would say that you get the standard +10 bonus for full cover.
Ok, you have some arguement here, but that 2 minutes is spent getting comfortable so things like that don't happen. Making sure you have a comfortable position so you back does not cramp up but you still have a view. Making sure your not sitting on your foor so it does not go to sleep when you need it. That is what taking 20 is.
I get where you are coming from, but still, I would argue that the modifiers that you described are mostly conditional and there is always something that can go wrong.
3. Funny you say this, since perception is one of the things listed explicitly in the examples for taking 20.
Ok, you got me on that, but, by the same token, stealth is not "one of the things listed explicitly in the examples for taking 20." and in most situations I would say that combat would probably begin before he had a chance to get to 20. There are few situations where someone could take 20 to notice someone who is hiding.
You cannot ready an action outside of initiative.
Ambushers who have readied to ambush get to initiate combat. That's it. The moment one of the ambushers does something overt, Perception checks and initiative checks are rolled (BEFORE the initiating action is completed).
If there are participants who fail their Perception checks, then there is a surprise round. If one of the participants was found to be aware AND rolled higher initiative, then he can spot and react to the ambusher(s) before their initiating action is completed.
Ambushing is still a great tactic as it means you are that much more likely to get off a round of attacks (if not two) before your foes can react. It's not full proof, but it shouldn't be.
You cannot take 20 on stealth. No matter how well you might think you're hidden, you won't know until an enemy looks for you. The rules on this are pretty clear.
You cannot take 20 on stealth. No matter how well you might think you're hidden, you won't know until an enemy looks for you. The rules on this are pretty clear.
Would you allow taking 10, such as to set up an ambush site an hour before the target comes along?
To those arguing for readying outside of combat:
Most of this was covered. Readying defines itself. You can't ready outside of combat because it's a special combat action that modifies your turn in combat order. You can't change your turn in combat order if you don't have a turn in combat order. Thus, you can't ready outside of combat. Pretty simple.
Not only is this fairly simply stated in the rules, it's also common sense and logical, in addition to preventing poor game mechanics. If you allow readying out of combat, you will start to see combats where people get to pick their initiative order, which is quite pointless. Why bother rolling initiative, when the first person to say they want to go gets to go? Honestly? That's really dumb, and that's really what you guys are advocating.
What many people have cited, of situations where readying "makes sense" outside of combat, that's already covered in the rules by the surprise round. It even fits well mechanically. Both the surprise round and a readied action are standard actions. Beautiful serendipity.
And, finally, the biggest reason why it shouldn't be allowed is because it gives an unfair edge to combats. That is, it's an unfair edge to whichever group is using it, the DM or the players. In essence, players cheesing the combat system this way are basically getting a free surprise round all the time, and that's just plain dumb.
On the topic of taking 20 on stealth checks, and after having read most of the responses so far in this thread, I stand by my original statement on the matter. Rules, you can't, because taking 20 is explicitly defined as requiring no consequence to failure. Themewise, you could, if your DM allowed it. In summation: it's really up to the DM, as are most things.
Except that initiative is metagaming -- it places an order on things which are actually happening simultaneously. We use initiative so that our game system can make some kind of order out of the chaos of combat, but actions are not really happening in order. This is why the GM is always free to ignore initiative and rule that two actions happen simultaneously. The 3.5e DMG gives examples of when to do this on pp 24-25, but I haven't seen similar guidance in any of the PRPG materials.
Azhrei_fje, while I respect your opinion and don't disrepect or look down on how you play in any way, the statement that initiative is metagaming is fairly specious and somewhat superfluous. All of this game is metagaming. It has to be, to allow us to play. Breaking down real life so it can be statted out and played is the only way to [/i]play[/i] it.
And while your point on the DM being able to do whatever he wants is valid, it should not, however, apply to the PCs, which is what some people are gunning for, and what a blanket ruling towards out-of-combat-readying would allow. In the name of "realism," readying outside of combat should be allowed. In this case, it's less for realism and more for killing mans more better and getting more loots because winning is good.
You cannot take 20 on stealth. No matter how well you might think you're hidden, you won't know until an enemy looks for you. The rules on this are pretty clear.Would you allow taking 10, such as to set up an ambush site an hour before the target comes along?
Why not just give a bonus to reflect that they've prepared an ambush rather than allow them to take 10? The rules for cover and concealment should cover that I believe.
Please explain how you would adjudicate the situation above. What action is the archer taking? How could the rogue possibly act before the archer in this situation other than stealthing past the door?
By being faster, having the better reaction time. In addition to stealthing past (is everything a verb now? Oh, well), he could reaction the living hell out of that archer.
It's for the same reason that two people, in the same situation, with the same car, will have different stopping distances.
Despite some claims, not everything happens at once.
There is time passing between the instant something appears and someone notices that something.
And there is more time passing between the instant when it is noticed by the senses and the instant when the brain registers it.
And then there is a little delay until the break commands a reaction.
And even more time until that reaction is carried out.
That's why you can walk in on someone who's watching the door and still act faster. That's why not every duel in western movies ends in a draw. That's why some people will run the poor child over while other manage to stop in time.
Transport the scenario you mentioned from a fantasy RPG into a first person shooter game. I've seen that many times: Someone is watching the door, knows where the enemy is going to come from, expects one at any moment - and in comes some guy, spots the shooter, aims, shoots, kills, before the wannabe-ambusher managed to click his mouse button. I've seen it from both points of view.
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The situation that happen to spark my pre-init ready action was this.....a scared NPC was in a room with a crossbow pointed at us. The module obviously expected you to talk him down with Diplomacy. After we all failed the fighter got sick of the guy and said to the GM,
"I rush the guy, grapple him and tie him up"
The GM had the NPC fire and dropped the fighter (wounded already at lvl 1)
After he complained that there should have been Init.
I totally agree with the player. He says the fighter wasn't ready to rush the guy?
To those arguing for readying outside of combat:
Most of this was covered. Readying defines itself. You can't ready outside of combat because it's a special combat action that modifies your turn in combat order. You can't change your turn in combat order if you don't have a turn in combat order. Thus, you can't ready outside of combat. Pretty simple.
Not only is this fairly simply stated in the rules, it's also common sense and logical, in addition to preventing poor game mechanics. If you allow readying out of combat, you will start to see combats where people get to pick their initiative order, which is quite pointless. Why bother rolling initiative, when the first person to say they want to go gets to go? Honestly? That's really dumb, and that's really what you guys are advocating.
What many people have cited, of situations where readying "makes sense" outside of combat, that's already covered in the rules by the surprise round. It even fits well mechanically. Both the surprise round and a readied action are standard actions. Beautiful serendipity.
And, finally, the biggest reason why it shouldn't be allowed is because it gives an unfair edge to combats. That is, it's an unfair edge to whichever group is using it, the DM or the players. In essence, players cheesing the combat system this way are basically getting a free surprise round all the time, and that's just plain dumb.
On the topic of taking 20 on stealth checks, and after having read most of the responses so far in this thread, I stand by my original statement on the matter. Rules, you can't, because taking 20 is explicitly defined as requiring no consequence to failure. Themewise, you could, if your DM allowed it. In summation: it's really up to the DM, as are most things.
Except that initiative is metagaming -- it places an order on things which are actually happening simultaneously. We use initiative so that our game system can make some kind of order out of the chaos of combat, but actions are not really...
Alright: as a player I therefore tell the GM I initiate combat, thus entering into initiative. I roll, and he rolls whenever any NPC enters the "combat." My action every round until someone appears is to ready an action to attack anyone who walks through the door. Congratulations, all you have done is add more unnessessary steps onto someone telling you they ready an action when not in combat.
As for giving 1 side an unfair edge... IT SHOULD. being prepared for someone to come to you gives you an advantage in combat.
Would you allow taking 10, such as to set up an ambush site an hour before the target comes along?Are you rushed? No.
Are you threatened? No.
Does the skill expressly prevent taking 10 (i.e. UMD)? No.
Can you take 10? Yes.
Which is much different from trying to take 20 on an opposed roll.
These are common new player errors in the game. Having something written up about them might be helpful, but then again there might be something already written there and I just don't recall it or have time to check for it.
If you understand what initiative is trying to represent then understanding special initiative actions will make sense. Lacking the former you will misunderstand the later.
To Caineach:
That would be what's called a SUPRISE ROUND. And it IS a nice big advantage. In fact it's a bigger advantage than your incorrect 'readied action'. Otherwise your trigger occurs the enemy is NOT flatfooted and after the trigger THEY complete their action... that's how readied actions work.-James
And if you look further up, where I discuss how to actually handle players wanting to do readied actions out of combat, I say treat it as a suprize round if you have too many. The rules do not actually prevent what I am saying though, so you can either allow players to use readied actions prior to the suprize round or force initiative rolls when not in combat yet. Keep in mind, the readied action would be their action in the suprize round, so the player is giving up choice of their action in exchange for first strike. This is no different than a normal readied action though.
Please explain how you would adjudicate the situation above. What action is the archer taking? How could the rogue possibly act before the archer in this situation other than stealthing past the door?By being faster, having the better reaction time. In addition to stealthing past (is everything a verb now? Oh, well), he could reaction the living hell out of that archer.
It's for the same reason that two people, in the same situation, with the same car, will have different stopping distances.
Despite some claims, not everything happens at once.
There is time passing between the instant something appears and someone notices that something.
And there is more time passing between the instant when it is noticed by the senses and the instant when the brain registers it.
And then there is a little delay until the break commands a reaction.
And even more time until that reaction is carried out.
That's why you can walk in on someone who's watching the door and still act faster. That's why not every duel in western movies ends in a draw. That's why some people will run the poor child over while other manage to stop in time.
Transport the scenario you mentioned from a fantasy RPG into a first person shooter game. I've seen that many times: Someone is watching the door, knows where the enemy is going to come from, expects one at any moment - and in comes some guy, spots the shooter, aims, shoots, kills, before the wannabe-ambusher managed to click his mouse button. I've seen it from both points of view.
Alright, it is starting to make sense now.
So, here is how I see it given the information that you and other posters have contributed.
A fighter covers the door with a bow while a rogue sneaks up to the door.
Both make perception checks.
Let's assume that they both succeed and are aware of eachother.
From the SRD:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
So, does this mean that there is no surprise round, since both combatants are aware of eachother? Because if it does then it might actually benefit the fighter if he has a deaf mouse in his pocket since the mouse will fail his check and force a surprise round.
Let's also assume that the rogue rolls higher and gets the initiative. If there is a surprise round (either because I am misreading the rules or the fighter has a deaf mouse as a pet) then things work out logically, he moves into the room but cannot attack since he is limited to a standard or move action. If he moves into the room then the fighter will attack him on his turn with his standard action. This makes sense to me. If the rogue waits or does anything but move into the room then the fighter can now "ready," an action and get the jump on him since initiative has been rolled. This also makes sense to me.
If there is no surprise round then the rogue could concievably bust into the room and kick the fighter in the teeth before he can get the shot off. While this could concievably happen, FPS aside, I would say that it is highly unlikely.
It also creates a situation where there is little benefit to "covering," a door. The fighter might as well be sitting and carving a piece of wood, covering the door with his bow gives him no advantage.
I do concede that the rules are correct in that you cannot prepare a readied action before combat begins, but I think that it has the potential to lead to some really wacky situations.
The problem with Kael Yoss's example is that there is a big difference between covering a door for 2 minutes(plenty of time for your attention to wander), and covering a person in a high threat situation where you are in immediate danger.
I have a serious problem with the idea that I(level 1 commoner with 10 dex) am holding an armed locked and loaded crossbow pointed directly at someone I consider a direct threat to my life(rogue with 16 dex), and 65% of the time, they are going to be able to move 30 feet and attack(partial charge in a surprise round) me with a melee weapon before I can move my finger half an inch.
Now I could buy that the rogue could draw a weapon without me seeing in(slight of hand against my perception), then throw it with a feint.
In short, I have no problem with treating readied actions out of combat as you go first in the surprise round.
I also have no problem with limiting how long you can ready an action. IE the bandit get the drop on the players, and the bandit start to negotiate with the players at crossbow point. After 20-30 seconds of talking, the bandits start to relax the guards as the threat of immediate danger seems to have passed. At this point, they are no longer readied.
I don't see where the RAW explicitly prohibits any of these things. the only other way I can think of adjudicating situations like this realistically is to give the bandits a significant circumstance bonus to initiative(like around a +10) for being loaded and ready.
The problem with Kael Yoss's example is that there is a big difference between covering a door for 2 minutes(plenty of time for your attention to wander), and covering a person in a high threat situation where you are in immediate danger.
For sure. And it's exactly the difference between "out of initiative" (when you can't ready an action) and "in initiative" (when you can).
The problem with Kael Yoss's example is that there is a big difference between covering a door for 2 minutes(plenty of time for your attention to wander), and covering a person in a high threat situation where you are in immediate danger.For sure. And it's exactly the difference between "out of initiative" (when you can't ready an action) and "in initiative" (when you can).
A rogue breaks into my house, I draw a gun, and sneak up behind him. I tell him to raise his hands and turn around slowly. At that point we are both aware of each other, but still out of initiative. I would still bet money that I can pull the trigger before he can turn around, move toward me, and attack. But according to the other thoughts in this thread, we would roll for initiative normally, and start combat normally.
A rogue breaks into my house, I draw a gun, and sneak up behind him. I tell him to raise his hands and turn around slowly. At that point we are both aware of each other, but still out of initiative.
I disagree -- you're in initiative at that point. Why wouldn't you be?
You're just both delaying and/or readying actions.
A rogue breaks into my house, I draw a gun, and sneak up behind him. I tell him to raise his hands and turn around slowly. At that point we are both aware of each other, but still out of initiative.I disagree -- you're in initiative at that point. Why wouldn't you be?
You're just both delaying and/or readying actions.
At which point I can make the argument that you are always in initiative order and just delaying/readying even when you are not in combat.
So when the bandits step out of cover, I say roll initiative. In the bandits surprise round all the bandits ready actions to shoot the PC if they do anything shady. The bandit leader starts talking. End result, more work for the same effect.