I thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion.
What are the spells (Core/AGP) that, mechanically, you think every or nearly every sorcerer should have a hard time passing up? Obviously, different bloodlines/builds will have some different must-have spells, but there are some spells that are so useful it's hard to skip them with any sorcerer.
Besides the spell name, some other useful things to mention might include:
- Why this spell?
- What level you'd pick it up and/or replace it -- everyone can agree that a level 20 sorcerer probably should have Magic Missile as one of their level 1 spells, but most wouldn't pick it as one of the only two non-cantrip spells to know at level 1 and 2.
- If it's especially good for a sorcerer relative to a wizard, and why.
In 3.5 I could have rattled off about a full progression's worth of great picks without even trying -- I'm finding in PF that's a little harder for me to do and I'm curious what other angles I'm missing.
Many people try to build a sorcerer piecemeal. Its my experience that this is not the way to go about it.
Rather build a sorcerer with all things considered at once.
That being said, I'd be curious to see what you think a, say, well-built ten levels of sorcerer might look like, in the sense of what spells are picked at each level and what spells are swapped out.
I love playing sorcerers, so its important for me to pick spells that I can always find useful or at least most of the time. U have to have a balance of combat and utility. Utility is up to the player. Id rather have fly than spider climb personally. Dispel magic is another good one. As far as combat, I like to take a variety of spells. I usually spread out the type, like I have 1 fire, I try to have another that sonic or cold. I also take energy substitution feat (or its equivilant, I don't think its in the core/apg) so that if I have to take another fire combat spell, I can always change its type. I also try to take spells that target saves. And I try to take spells that give different saves, so that if I fight a spellcaster, I can cast ref save spells against it. A fighter? Ref and will saves. A rogue? Fort saves. Etc.
For me, Scorching ray is a must. Its good damage, ranged touch, and the damage goes up as u level (although its 4 levels I believe.) Also since I don't care for AOE that much I can single target multiple creatures when I get multiple rays.
Another spell I like to take is invisibility. Its good for when u need to stealthily get out of someplace but don't have the skill to do it.
Another thing to remember with a spellcasters (any spellcaster IMO) is to rely on ur skills and ur roleplay to get out of situations rather than ur spells. Spells are a last resort most cases. I've seen too many people cast all their spells and when thay come to a situation, they don't have anymore to cast, or they don't know what to do because they always rely solely on their spells and when they lose that for a situation, they panic.
My spell of choice is Enervation.
The spell by itself is incredibly powerful for its level; add the possibilty to spam it round after round and it quickly becomes overkill.
There are commonly only three kind of creatures which are not affected: Constructs, Undead (they would be buffed with such a spell), and creatures under a Death Ward spell (which has a short duration, and most enemies do not possess). And the Tarrasque, but he is always an exception, of course :D
Other than that, it can easily kill even powerhouses in a few hits (and this is the true strength of the spell in the hands of somebody who can cast it repeatedly). Two sessions ago, while I was GMing, an uber-buffed Eidolon at full hp was one-shotted by a single Enervation spell which luckily scored a crit >;)
Just my 2c.
My spell of choice is Enervation.
The spell by itself is incredibly powerful for its level; add the possibilty to spam it round after round and it quickly becomes overkill.
There are commonly only three kind of creatures which are not affected: Constructs, Undead (they would be buffed with such a spell), and creatures under a Death Ward spell (which has a short duration, and most enemies do not possess). And the Tarrasque, but he is always an exception, of course :D
Other than that, it can easily kill even powerhouses in a few hits (and this is the true strength of the spell in the hands of somebody who can cast it repeatedly). Two sessions ago, while I was GMing, an uber-buffed Eidolon at full hp was one-shotted by a single Enervation spell which luckily scored a crit >;)
Just my 2c.
I still have 3.5 nightmares about empowered split ray enervations.
*shudder*
I'm quite fond of the shadow series of spells. For a limited spell list, they let you sacrifice a bit of raw power for the ability to cast a large list of lesser spells. While less effective in combat due to the disbelief save, out of combat utility can be very great.
Pathfinder Enervations kind of suck since they changed Negative levels.
As for Sorcerer spells, illusions, charms, and summons are best because of the various ways you can use them both in and out of combat.
.
..
...
....
.....
Fireball
It's what Sorcerer's talk about in the pub.
''So yeah, and she says that I better stop eating pies in bed or else she's going back to her mother's and so I go FIREBALL IN THE FACE!''
''Yeah, well, one time we're like totally liberating this goblin village and there are these two snotty nosed orphan goblins in this hut and..''
''..FIREBALL IN THE FACE?''
''Damn straight. Every time.''
::
It get's bad press but then people tend to use it badly. Nothing says 'Difficult Terrain' like a terrified crowd fleeing from the charred remains of their kin and kind..
..strange knock at the door? FIREBALL
..not sure what's down the dark stairway? FIREBALL
..campfire needs lighting? FIREBALL
..that neighbour's cat on the lawn again? FIREBALL
..last orders at the local tavern? FIREBALL
..bored? FIREBALL
..when you absolutely have to kill every last goblin muvva in the room?
::
Quasi-seriously: It's relatively cheap, it's got a great range, it doesn't require a roll to hit, has a nice target area and it works well with metamagic feats like lingering spell and elemental spell, which are in turn cheap (+1 spell level) Metamagic feats.
Yes a rogue can totally evade it. Yes some creatures are immune to fire: Stop fireballing rogues and creatures immune to fire. Problem solved.
::
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
::
FUN. CHEAP. FIRE. What's not to like?
Belatedly, there is another neat thing about the shadow spells. Even if your opponents make their spellcraft roll, they still have no idea what you're going to cast.
.
..
...
....
.....Fireball
It's what Sorcerer's talk about in the pub.
''So yeah, and she says that I better stop eating pies in bed or else she's going back to her mother's and so I go FIREBALL IN THE FACE!''
''Yeah, well, one time we're like totally liberating this goblin village and there are these two snotty nosed orphan goblins in this hut and..''
''..FIREBALL IN THE FACE?''
''Damn straight. Every time.''
::
It get's bad press but then people tend to use it badly. Nothing says 'Difficult Terrain' like a terrified crowd fleeing from the charred remains of their kin and kind..
..strange knock at the door? FIREBALL
..not sure what's down the dark stairway? FIREBALL
..campfire needs lighting? FIREBALL
..that neighbour's cat on the lawn again? FIREBALL
..last orders at the local tavern? FIREBALL
..bored? FIREBALL
..when you absolutely have to kill every last goblin muvva in the room?
::
Quasi-seriously: It's relatively cheap, it's got a great range, it doesn't require a roll to hit, has a nice target area and it works well with metamagic feats like lingering spell and elemental spell, which are in turn cheap (+1 spell level) Metamagic feats.
Yes a rogue can totally evade it. Yes some creatures are immune to fire: Stop fireballing rogues and creatures immune to fire. Problem solved.
::
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.::
FUN. CHEAP. FIRE. What's not to like?
I like fire.
Yes a rogue can totally evade it. Yes some creatures are immune to fire: Stop fireballing rogues and creatures immune to fire. Problem solved.
For some reason this made me laugh so hard I fell out of bed.
Spells every sorcerer should have :
* Dimensional Door => escape grapple, climb the wall, pass through the locked door
* Enervation => still a powerful debuff
* Planar Binding => call friends to help you when none of your spells can
* Charm spells => at least Charm Person (then Monster) and Dominate Person
* Protection from Energy
* Mind Blank
* Moment of Prescience
I still have 3.5 nightmares about empowered split ray enervations.
*shudder*
Do not remind me of that one!
What's the party in which you are going to be traveling? What roles do you want to fill there? What sources do you have? What levels do you see the group playing through and at what rate?
James nailed the essentials right there!
The first question that must be answered before you can make a useful sorcerer is, "Who will I be adventuring with?"
If there's another caster in the party who can cast utility spells, then go wild with your theme (Enchantment, Darkness, Rays, Blasting, etc.) If you're the only person who will ever be able to dispel magic, teleport, charm, create light, or fly, then you should do your best to fit those abilities in at an appropriate level.
The second question is, "What spells can I get from items?"
Are there items that do the same thing as this spell, and do it well?
Is your DM particularly generous/flexible with magic item availability, or particularly stingy?
For example, a wand of Dispel Magic is lousy at dispelling magic, because the caster level is critical to it's success, but a wand of Invisibility is a solid choice. If your DM is going to accommodate magic item purchases with standard or greater gold, decent sell-price for loot, and occasional trips to large cities where magic items can be bought or commissioned, etc. then don't waste your precious spells known on utility!
Here's how I would approach building a Sorcerer:
- Count your party. If it will be 3 players, make something else.
- Announce to your fellow players, "I'd like to make a Sorcerer. What are you making?"
- If there's going to be a Wizard or Witch in the party, skip to the last step.
- If there's a Monk or Druid, plan to know Mage Armor and an attack spell in 1st level.
- If there's a Rogue, plan to know Invisibility and an attack spell in 2nd level.
- Repeat this process to make sure every spell level includes at least one combat spell (usually an attack of some kind) and one spell that buffs, moves, or otherwise enhances the party.
- choose your favorite bloodline, make a cool theme for it, and choose spells accordingly.
.
..
...
....
.....
*good constructive stuff*
...and then throw a FIREBALL!
::
Curious, how did you setup bullet points in your post?
Curious, how did you setup bullet points in your post ?
Aha, through Reverse Engineering (that is, I opened the post through 'reply') I discovered the way.
Which is square parenthesis [ , asterisk *, square parenthesis ]
Two years and a half on this boards, and I still have a lot of tricks to learn :D ...
Curious, how did you setup bullet points in your post ?
Aha, through Reverse Engineering (that is, I opened the post through 'reply') I discovered the way.
** spoiler omitted **
Hi mate. What do you mean they have changed?Pathfinder Enervations kind of suck since they changed Negative levels.
The major differences are:
- "Generic" negative levels don't become permanent
- "Generic" negative levels aren't doubled on a critical hit
- Dying due to "generic" negative levels doesn't cause you to rise as a wight
- Spellcasters don't lose spell slots due to negative levels
Presumably the last one is what K is referring to. Also note that the PFRPG Enervation spell has a save for 1/2 effect.
|
Hi mate. What do you mean they have changed?Pathfinder Enervations kind of suck since they changed Negative levels.
The major differences are:
- "Generic" negative levels don't become permanent
- Dying due to "generic" negative levels doesn't cause you to rise as a wight
- Spellcasters don't lose spell slots due to negative levels
Presumably the last one is what K is referring to. Also note that the PFRPG Enervation spell has a save for 1/2 effect.
I do not believe that the PFRPG version allows a save throw. In the core book it is a range touch attack with no save.
ALso, can you crit with this spell?
I do not believe that the PFRPG version allows a save throw. In the core book it is a range touch attack with no save.
Oops, must have been thinking of Ray of Enfeeblement.
0 - detect magic, prestidigitation (too versatile to ignore), read magic, light.
1- magic missile (almost assured damaged vs most low-mid
critters), shield (magic missile immunity is great at lower lvls), color spray (must be replaced at higher levels)
2- see invisibility, acid arrow (low dmg but no SR. Works against golems because of that)
3- fireball (solid cheap area of effect), dispel magic (must have), haste (probably best boost in game), suggestion (versatile and useful in rp)
4- stoneskin, improved invisibility
5- teleport (replaced by gretar teleport)
6- chain lightning (solid mass dmg, more controllable than fireball area)
7- spell turning (against other spellcasters), greater teleport, limited wish (low level wish)
8- planar binding (if you have magic circle+dimensional anchor as well), mindblank (even after modified still strong)
9- timestop, wish
Charm Person/Monster? Hold Monster/Person?
I've stopped more bad guys in their tracks or turned them against their own people with these spells. Underrated spells if I ever knew any.
Charm Person/Monster? Hold Monster/Person?
I've stopped more bad guys in their tracks or turned them against their own people with these spells. Underrated spells if I ever knew any.
The problem with the charm spells (such as it is) is that their effectiveness varies wildly from GM to GM. I've seen one GM play charm as basically dominate without the drawbacks, others as "well, he's your friend so he's not going to attack specifically you, but he's still going to try to murder the entire rest of the party and keeps asking you to help" and everything in between.
I wouldn't anchor a character around them in, for example, an organized play campaign for exactly that reason.
Charm Person/Monster? Hold Monster/Person?
I've stopped more bad guys in their tracks or turned them against their own people with these spells. Underrated spells if I ever knew any.
The problem with the charm spells (such as it is) is that their effectiveness varies wildly from GM to GM. I've seen one GM play charm as basically dominate without the drawbacks, others as "well, he's your friend so he's not going to attack specifically you, but he's still going to try to murder the entire rest of the party and keeps asking you to help" and everything in between.
I wouldn't anchor a character around them in, for example, an organized play campaign for exactly that reason.
Very good point.
Personally I try to use the guidelines presented in the diplomacy skill, but still they're somewhat vague.
Very good point.
Personally I try to use the guidelines presented in the diplomacy skill, but still they're somewhat vague.
A few more concrete examples in the magic section of the rulebook would've been great there -- with illusions too, really. At one table, looking at a Silent Image of a wall is enough to get a save, at another you have to try to touch it, etc.
I think the rules suggest reasonable enough standard rulings for all these things, but they're some of the most notoriously unpredictable in play with an unknown/new GM.
Very good point.
Personally I try to use the guidelines presented in the diplomacy skill, but still they're somewhat vague.
A few more concrete examples in the magic section of the rulebook would've been great there -- with illusions too, really. At one table, looking at a Silent Image of a wall is enough to get a save, at another you have to try to touch it, etc.
I think the rules suggest reasonable enough standard rulings for all these things, but they're some of the most notoriously unpredictable in play with an unknown/new GM.
I guess that's probably on purpose. This way gms can adapt the way they work according to a group's preference... but I agree; those spells are not the most reliable you can select (by far).
Shield has a horrible duration only like one minute per level. The magic missle immunity is only useful if your GM uses magic missile.Glitterdust makes invisible creatures come out and blinds them even if it got nerfed for a save every round. Glitterdust also allows the party to see the invisible creature.
I think any list would have to vary from table to table, depending on campaign style, party make-up, and how that particular DM rules on certain spells. That being said here is my list:
1- Color Spray replaced by Magic Missile at 6th Level, Mage Armor (you probably need it to survive at low levels, but it may become obsolete unless you make your own gear), Charm Person
2- Invisibility (the duration on Greater Invisibility doesn't really allow for non-combat applications), Scorching Ray (one of the best bang for your buck damage spells), Detect Thoughts (any form of telepathy can be very powerful in a non-dungeon hack setting)
3- Haste (probably the best buff spell in the game), Major Image (on of the most versatile spells in the game), Dispel Magic (defense wins championships), Flight (swapped out at 10th or 12th Level whenever you pick up Overland Flight)
4- Black Tentacles (a scalable battlefield control spell), Enervation (a great debuff with no saving throw)
5- Summon Monster V (a tough call over Overland Flight, but when you hit 10th Level you get one spell that you can basically cast 4 times, so your choice is either make the whole party fly all day or summon a fairly effective monster in every encounter)
I also think that Meta-magic feats are far more useful to a Sorcerer than a Wizard, because you can elect to do them on the fly. Silent Spell and Still Spell really increase the non-combat effectiveness of Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, and Major Image.
I've played a couple of sorcerers and don't find them as constraining as many like to make out. Early levels it can be, but the wizard suffers the same problems unless the DM is overly generous. The key for a sorcerer is to ensure you have a mix of options and avoid redundancy. Your feats can really help out here too. By mid levels you should have a good mix of utility, damage dealing, defensive, offensive control and group buffs.
I take no more than one energy type for damaging spells unless I'm building on a theme or towards a prerequisite of some type. So if I take Scorching Ray I'll never take Fireball and I wouldn't have Burning Hands unless that was the theme I was going for.
Avoid redundancy be ensuring your spells aren't doing what high/lower level ones do. Same goes with party members. If I have an effective lower level option I won't take a high level one that does the same thing.
Because I'm a streaky roller that can go on a horrid run I like to have options to get around high SRs. I'll take some spells that aren't affected by SR and group buffs to help me out here. Haste is a favourite and group members always appreciate it.
Dispel Magic or its Greater version is a must. One of the best spells in the game. I take one, but never both.
Avoid opponent specific spells. If a spell only affects a certain creature type I won't take it unless the campaign is crawling with them. A wizard can afford to have one in his/her spell book and choose to memorize it when needed, but you've got it all the time and your slots are precious and rare. Opponent specific spells are best left to scrolls.
Probably one thing to consider is how accessible are Wands, Scrolls and Staves in your game. If they are then you can afford to leave certain spells to items. Spells that aren't DC dependant or have a naturally long duration (minutes ore more) are often best left to items unless you expect to be casting it every battle.
Ulitmately I find the idea is to ensure you have options for all combats and have variety to avoid being shut down. Spell selection is far more important for a sorcerer than a wizard so spend some time weighing up how often you'd expect to use the spell and whether you've already got one with a similiar effect.
Of course the biggest drawback of playing a Sorcerer is the very small list of "known spells"
Therefore you want spells that are very versatile. Spells like enervation are really powerful unless you are fighting something immune (like undead) or large groups of weaker enemies.
Fireball is great against those groups of weaker enemies, unless they happen to be a group of enemies with fire resistance or evasion.
Of course, you could take Fireball, Enervation and maybe acid arrow too just to cover your bases.
IMO though, you would be better served with a BUFF. Haste will be a winning spell in pretty much any combat. It works against pretty much any opponent and in just about any situation.
Most importantly I would suggest avoiding redundancy. If you really enjoy fireball, by all means put it on the list (overall, it isn't a bad spell), but think twice before adding other fire-based blasts or area of effect blasts on your list.
I would recommend at least one illusion spell for any sorcerer. Silent image will do fine, but go for a higher level fancier version if you like.
Maneuverability is very important. Fly is the standby, but phantom steed can be pretty shiny and levels better, levitate may ultimately do what you need though and save that important 3rd level slot.
I would name the options other than dimension door, but there aren't many - I would probably take it every time.
Defensively, I have to think mirror image is pretty tempting, though your main defense has to be plain old tactical positioning.
Since I'm a terrible masochist, I play an enchantment/illusion pacifist sorceress that has no damage spells at all and is hesitant to buff murderous hobos (the party). Doing okay so far, providing displacement to the party tank and using suggestion and hideous laughter to take enemies out of combat.
The Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells are awesome for sorcerers; they add some much needed versatility to the sorcerers spells known. Even if you avoid using them for direct damage (which I would avoid, seeing as the target will more than likely get two saves), you can get a lot of bang out of them.
Transmute Rock to Mud. So fun in caves!
.
It get's bad press but then people tend to use it badly....
''..FIREBALL IN THE FACE?''''Damn straight. Every time.''
...
Yes a rogue can totally evade it. Yes some creatures are immune to fire: Stop fireballing rogues and creatures immune to fire. Problem solved.
...
FUN. CHEAP. FIRE. What's not to like?
This is one of the best posts I have ever read on the internet. Thank you!
Thanks also to everyone else for great suggestions.I suggest some charm/compulsion. If you come to an agreement with the GM, and don't abuse it, it can really come in handy. Charisma makes charm very nice!
Protection from evil can save the day, and it is nice not to have to use the wand again every 60 seconds.
Heroism can be great for some builds.
Summon monster can provide some great options once you get to the mid levels. Summoning some of those creatures is like adding a few spells to your inventory.
Grease is nice, and actually a pretty versatile spell. Same with glitterdust.
As others have said, it depends heavily on who you are adventuring with, and what you want to do. But in general, try to look for spells that can be used in different (even out-of-combat) ways.
The only ones I ALWAYS have are fly and dimension door.
Moving the entire party at speed is a good trick also. You've got your choice between shadow walk, phantom steed, and teleport.
Greater teleport isn't worth it. You're a sorceror. If you miss, just teleport again.
I always keep in the Shadow Conjuration and the Shadow Evocation, then later the greater versions. They let you immiatate so many spells that with limited spell selection I don't understand how other caster function without them.
Possibly a threadjack, but the following is the spell-list of an NPC sorcerer I'm working on. Okay, he's meant to be a supporting character/gear-crafter, but I was wondering what folks thought of his spell-selection (since he was an adventuring-party's 'blaster' until he 'went legit'). He's a human native to the Forgotten Realms with a fascination with force spells - he went through all five levels of the Force Missile Mage PrC before coming back to Sorcerer, and made Sor10/FMM5 by the time he 'retired' (which is just before the PCs start their careers around his home-base).
Spells per day/spells known:
7th level (3/day) - limited wish
6th level (5/day) – analyse dweomer, disintegrate, true seeing*
5th level (6/day) - break enchantment, permanency, wall of stone, wall of force**
4th level (6/day) - arcane eye, chain missile**, dimension door*, force orb** (FR), solid fog, stone shape, summon monster IV.
3rd level (7/day) - fireball, improved mage armour [FR], keen edge, tongues.
2nd level (7/day) - battering ram** (FR), create magic tattoo** (FR), continual flame, darkvision, glitterdust, invisibility*, resist energy, scorching ray.
1st level (7/day) - alarm, erase** (FR), floating disk, identify*, magic missile, magic weapon, mount, shield**.
0th level (at will) – arcane mark, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead**, electric jolt** (FR), light, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation**, read magic, silent portal.
* - Bloodline spell
** - bonus spell (per APG rules)
I'm just a little chagrined that there isn't a 'Force' bloodline that I could sling this character into, so I could further reinforce his concept as mad for force spells.... :S