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Hmm... never seemed underpowered to me. I suspect it might be a "focused" versus "diverse" thing. In other words, I think it may have something to do with the fact that most classes can focus in one thing really really well, and that's their strength. Oracle doesn't really do that. It branches out it's strength meaning that it's never really weak, but never *quite* as strong (or at least, it's harder to be).
Personally, I've always made characters with diverse abilities, so it's never bothered me.
My Oracle had the Flames mystery, was a kobold, and was deaf. It was so fun playing around with sign language (which I eventually taught the other party members). Kobolds are already fast and once combined with boots of striding and springing and the cinder dance revelation, he was the fastest member of the party.
His strength ended up being sensory deprivation. He could lay down fog clouds and see through them (using another revelation) then silence the area and have nearly all foes at his mercy (his spells were all automatically silent thanks to his curse). Horrible in melee in all ways, though. He was split between healing, buffing, rogue-like skills (bluff/disguise/stealth/etc) and offense (mostly through the mystery spells). After he got near immunity to fire he started throwing down AoE spells next to himself to discourage opponents from engaging him in melee.
My problem with the oracle isn't that its under powered but that spontaneous casting for divine spells just isn't as interesting or as fun as arcane.
There just are not a lot of divine spells that you'd cast over and over in combat. I find sorcerers cast lots of attack and battlefield control spells. Buffs are best cast either before or early in the fight and healing is best done after the battle since smaller cures are more efficient. There are not enough good in combat spells in the divine list.
Spontaneous casting is awesome for divine casters. In addition to spontaneous cures, you get all your fix-stuff and buffs on demand as well. The fact that there's less good combat spells means the limits of the character's spell list is felt less than with a sorc. I'm really digging the battle oracle, using my maneuver and attacks during combat and always having all the spells I need to buff before and fix after.
They have level 9 spells.
They have level 9 spells.
This. In this game, 9 level spells and underpowered are rarely on the same sentence.
Moreover, basing on what you want to do, Oracle offers a lot of different, interesting class features.
In the top of that, has 4 skills/level!
I love the fluff of Oracles. I've been toying with the Oracle as a PFS character and every combination seems lacking. Does anyone else get the feeling that they are underpowered.
If they aren't underpowered, anyone know how to play them.
Not in the least.
They have: Ninth level casting, more spells known than the sorcerer (due to their free cure or inflict spells) earlier spell access than the sorcerer (they get their free cure and bonus spell known at the level they gain access to a new spell level giving them three spells to the sorcerer's 1) d8 hit dice medium BAB, medium armor with shields, 4+Int skill points per level, More powers than the sorcerer, easier means to gain those powers (feats can be traded for them) their powers are more powerful than the sorcerer's powers (in several cases giving free access to 3+ feats).
While no one mystery gives an oracle everything he could possibly ask for several come very close and they all have many very good revelations.
Just the basic mechanics are very powerful: Medium HD/BAB, 9th level spells, 4+Int skill points, seven powers of choice, medium armor and shields, and more/earlier access to spells than the sorcerer -- the arcane equilvent (supposedly) to the oracle.
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Hmm... never seemed underpowered to me. I suspect it might be a "focused" versus "diverse" thing. In other words, I think it may have something to do with the fact that most classes can focus in one thing really really well, and that's their strength. Oracle doesn't really do that. It branches out it's strength meaning that it's never really weak, but never *quite* as strong (or at least, it's harder to be).
Personally, I've always made characters with diverse abilities, so it's never bothered me.
I think you may have something here. I'm looking at the Mysteries and all of them seem rather weak. Ironically, I'm simular to you in that I like "diverse" characters as well. However, I tend to choose things that have at least one 'stand out' ability. However, I'm finding it hard to find a low level stand out ability.
As for the Sorcerer vs Oracle thing, I think I'm comparing them to the cleric (IMHO Sorcerers are slightly underpowered). Compared to the mysteries don't seem to compare to the channel ability and the other special abilities.
All the Best,
Kerney
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My problem with the oracle isn't that its under powered but that spontaneous casting for divine spells just isn't as interesting or as fun as arcane.
I am of exactly the opposite opinion. I (personally here mind you) hate sorcerers. I don't like that they're a level behind on the progression curve, and I absolutely hate the idea that I'm limited in the spells I have. I like variety, tons of tools that I can use creatively to "save the day" because I happen to have the right one available at the right time. Sorcerers to me always seem like one-trick-ponies. Basically, I feel that arcane casters benefit from spell preparation because of the combos and overall versatility of most of the spells in their repertoire facilitate the ability to swap out spells as the situation requires.
Divine casters on the other hand have an extraordinary limited group of spells that they select regularly. High level clerics might occasionally branch out into a specific spell they need for a specific need, but generally their spell lists are pretty static and consist typically of some cures and some buffs. Oracles already get a significant number of those spells without needing to expend a slot (all of the cure and inflict wounds spells). So a class designed to select from that core list of "useful" divine spells and then cast them spontaneously has a fair amount of versatility in itself.
Maybe they won't "cast them over and over in combat", but you do realize that there's usually (at least in my group) some pre-battle buffing going on, and being able to prep more effectively by buffing more party members (because you can cast that magic vestment four times) is useful. Heck if you're a oracle with the combat healing mastery there's always time to heal in combat, because it *is* effective use of actions (since they're considered quickened). Different ways of playing though I guess.
As for the Sorcerer vs Oracle thing, I think I'm comparing them to the cleric (IMHO Sorcerers are slightly underpowered). Compared to the mysteries don't seem to compare to the channel ability and the other special abilities.
All the Best,
Kerney
You should take a look to the Oracle of Life if you want to compare it to a cleric...
In my players group there's one and on level 1 : 4 level 1 spell+6 channel = a lot of heal (or buff) ;)Oracle vs Cleric is the same as Sorcerer vs Wizard : you lose versatility and gain some flexibility and some different power...
I don't think sorcerer are underpowered, idem for the Oracle.
I don't know...I do like the Oracle class, but personally I feel that it's still missing something. When I hear the word "Oracle", I think of a diviner, an advisor, a prophet...someone who knows secrets and mysteries and spouts them cryptically, and yet their words are still useful. Granted it may be hard to quantify that in a rules system (short of letting the Oracle's player take a peek at the DM's notes! BWAH!), but still...
I guess I picture an Oracle's role to be something best summed up by the following exchange:
PARTY MEMBER: Hmmm....should I have a ham or turkey sandwich?
ORACLE: If the flesh of swine is consumed, a great kingdom will fall.
PARTY MEMBER: Turkey it is, then...
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I don't know...I do like the Oracle class, but personally I feel that it's still missing something. When I hear the word "Oracle", I think of a diviner, an advisor, a prophet...someone who knows secrets and mysteries and spouts them cryptically, and yet their words are still useful. Granted it may be hard to quantify that in a rules system (short of letting the Oracle's player take a peek at the DM's notes! BWAH!), but still...
I guess I picture an Oracle's role to be something best summed up by the following exchange:
PARTY MEMBER: Hmmm....should I have a ham or turkey sandwich?
ORACLE: If the flesh of swine is consumed, a great kingdom will fall.
PARTY MEMBER: Turkey it is, then...
What's stopping an Oracle from doing this anyway? The way the future changes based on our decisions, I see no reason an Oracle has to even be right.
In your ham/turkey example, the 'mighty kigndom' might have been your pieces in a chess game, and since you got more to eat by choosing turkey, you weren't distracted by any remaining hunger and won the game.
What I like of the Oracle, is that is sort of parallel, and in the same way opposite of cleric.
The cleric is someone that was looking for the god, and found him/her.
The oracle is someone the god was looking for, and found him/her, willing or unwilling.
Things like this strikes me and inspires me to build character concepts and whole worlds, as happened with Sorcerer/Wizard.
They have to be played with FOCUS.
This is effectively what I came to say. The Oracle is on par with the Cleric, but tends to be most effective when you choose to focus in one area/role/set of class abilities.
The small selection of known spells requires an Oracle to choose wisely, and give up some versatility. Couple that with the wide selection of available class abilities (through revelations and your curse), which allow you to choose abilities with good synergy. This sets you up for a strong capacity to specialize in a role, as compared to the Cleric, which is a bit more of a generalist.
I don't know...I do like the Oracle class, but personally I feel that it's still missing something. When I hear the word "Oracle", I think of a diviner, an advisor, a prophet...someone who knows secrets and mysteries and spouts them cryptically, and yet their words are still useful. Granted it may be hard to quantify that in a rules system (short of letting the Oracle's player take a peek at the DM's notes! BWAH!), but still...
That's what I think of too, when I hear/read the word "Oracle", John!
I just can't think of a more apropos/fitting name other than that for this type of character...
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
I love Oracles and I haven't even played one yet.
No, I don't feel they are underpowered at all. Especially if you want a healer, the Life Mystery is a given. I was seriously thinking about playing an Oracle over my Sorceror.
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Oracles are freaking AWESOME. I am playing a lvl 2 Oracle with the revelation of Bones in PFS, and its amazing character. Only really 1 stat needed (CHA), so with moderate stats in STR and CON, I am decent front line damage dealer (d8 HD, Med Armor, shields) and the ability to cast spells on the fly is awesome!
Revelations are pretty amazing too, esp as Human, I took "Extra Revelation" feat at lvl 1, I have 2 revelations at lvl 2, and will get another soon enough.
Dont forget too, the Oracles get spells based on their revelation at even levels....Bones gets "Animate Dead" at lvl 4, thats just awesome sauce. Between the revelation spells, the free cure/inflict spells, plus the ones you know as you level, you have a nice wide variety. Also, as a Human favored class, you can choose an extra spell at each level too. Spontaneous casting, massive spell list, divine spells with 0 arcane failure wearing heavy armor???
Whats not to love???
My fave of the APG classes, by far.
Oracles are AWESOME. We just started our Serpents Skull adventure and we are all playing Oracles.
I am playing a Haunted Gnome Oracle of the Heavens. Going to be awesome party control. Also maxing out UMD just in case.
We have a Lame Human Oracle of Bones. This character is awesome. Her left leg is skeletal to the knee and getting worse as she ages, and she is not sure why these strange powers have been given to her.
We have a near Venerable Human Oracle of life that is Wasting away. This guy will be an AMAZING healer.
and to finish the group we have a Half Orc Oracle of Battle with Clouded vision for our tank.
the heavens and bones oracles chose the inflict spells, and the other 2 chose the cures. The flavor of each one of us is so different it's like we are all different classes. So far it has gone very well.
-Venom
Hmm... never seemed underpowered to me. I suspect it might be a "focused" versus "diverse" thing. In other words, I think it may have something to do with the fact that most classes can focus in one thing really really well, and that's their strength. Oracle doesn't really do that. It branches out it's strength meaning that it's never really weak, but never *quite* as strong (or at least, it's harder to be).
Personally, I've always made characters with diverse abilities, so it's never bothered me.I think you may have something here. I'm looking at the Mysteries and all of them seem rather weak. Ironically, I'm simular to you in that I like "diverse" characters as well. However, I tend to choose things that have at least one 'stand out' ability. However, I'm finding it hard to find a low level stand out ability.
As for the Sorcerer vs Oracle thing, I think I'm comparing them to the cleric (IMHO Sorcerers are slightly underpowered). Compared to the mysteries don't seem to compare to the channel ability and the other special abilities.
All the Best,
Kerney
I'll agree on the sorcerer bit, but realize if you compare to cleric then you need to do it in the context of the sorcerer compared to the wizard.
Some good abilities at low level for oracles:
Heavens:
Awesome Display + Color Spray = level 1 spell killing things up until 15~17th level.
Life:
Energy Body = Elemental subtype = no flanking, no critical hits, no poisons sleep paralysis or stunning. No need to eat sleep or breathe while in elemental form. This is a huge list of immunities.
Lore: (great for multiclassing with bard)
Sidestep Secret
Lore Keeper
Focused Trance
Mental Acuity (not so great for multiclassing)
Nature:
Bonded Mount
Life Leech
Nature's Whispers
Spirit of Nature
Fire: Wonderful for versitility and blowing stuff up
Tons of damage choices (fire breath, touch of flame, heat aura, firestorm)
Flight/manueverability (wings of fire, cinder dance)
Elemental Form (take the ring of revelations for it to use it twice a day!)
Burning Magic is nice
Bones:
Raise the dead
Undead Servitude
Death's touch
Bleeding Wounds
Soul Siphon is ok... not great
Spirit Walk (another one to get the ring of for extra uses)
Battle:
Skill at arms
weapon mastery
war sight
resiliency
battle cry
Iron Skin
The oracle is loaded with great choices for most of the mysteries (waves mystery is made of misery which is odd considering the playtest warned them about this).
I had no love for them during the beta test, but a few days ago I finally looked at them again, and they are not bad at all. When I get to play(not DM) I want to try one out.
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No, they're just misplayed. In actuality they are overpowered; just misunderstood.
Too many people pick battle or fire as an Oracle, this just isn't their strength. If you want "battlecaster", the cleric and especially Druid are always going to far outweigh.
No, if you want a powerful character, look to heaven and lore. What do these have in common? They break a primary rule of the game; essentially nullifying your need for certain attributed, and changing the level of creatures for spell effects.
So, Heavens. First ability is the most powerful, taking your Cha and subtracting it from hd. The biggest effect is Color spray. Take our Level 8 gnome oracle illusion specialist. He has a +2 Cha headband, a Widen metamagic rod, and a 22 base (20 start, +2 level-up). Suddenly he is able to pump out 30 foot cone color sprays at DC19 that treat everyone as if they are 7 hd down (making it save or die below 11 hd). As a 1st level spell. The night sky lets him be an outdoor Perception master at night, and extend/empower a spell.
1 level of Oracle Lore gets any Cha-based fighter into an AC machine, while simultaneously letting you dump dex entirely. How good is a Pally that can dump Int, Wis, AND Dex? And still have the best AC in the group? A few more levels gets you channeling knowledge through Cha, and more still will start getting you the dream of free stat points (Int, but still...). And as a gnome you can start a 20 Cha and 18 Con, a modest int for skill points, and dump the rest. Seems solid, again Dex dump is huge.
Just set up right and you'll have the wizards wish they could control the battlefield as well as you :).
No, they're just misplayed. In actuality they are overpowered; just misunderstood.
Too many people pick battle or fire as an Oracle, this just isn't their strength. If you want "battlecaster", the cleric and especially Druid are always going to far outweigh.
No, if you want a powerful character, look to heaven and lore. What do these have in common? They break a primary rule of the game; essentially nullifying your need for certain attributed, and changing the level of creatures for spell effects.
So, Heavens. First ability is the most powerful, taking your Cha and subtracting it from hd. The biggest effect is Color spray. Take our Level 8 gnome oracle illusion specialist. He has a +2 Cha headband, a Widen metamagic rod, and a 22 base (20 start, +2 level-up). Suddenly he is able to pump out 30 foot cone color sprays at DC19 that treat everyone as if they are 7 hd down (making it save or die below 11 hd). As a 1st level spell. The night sky lets him be an outdoor Perception master at night, and extend/empower a spell.
1 level of Oracle Lore gets any Cha-based fighter into an AC machine, while simultaneously letting you dump dex entirely. How good is a Pally that can dump Int, Wis, AND Dex? And still have the best AC in the group? A few more levels gets you channeling knowledge through Cha, and more still will start getting you the dream of free stat points (Int, but still...). And as a gnome you can start a 20 Cha and 18 Con, a modest int for skill points, and dump the rest. Seems solid, again Dex dump is huge.
Just set up right and you'll have the wizards wish they could control the battlefield as well as you :).
I noticed the lore one, but I admit the other one I did not catch. I will just raise the level requirement for the lore ability to avoid any level dipping or at least make them really want it.
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No, they're just misplayed. In actuality they are overpowered; just misunderstood.
Too many people pick battle or fire as an Oracle, this just isn't their strength. If you want "battlecaster", the cleric and especially Druid are always going to far outweigh.
No, if you want a powerful character, look to heaven and lore. What do these have in common? They break a primary rule of the game; essentially nullifying your need for certain attributed, and changing the level of creatures for spell effects.
But it does keep you from taking other attributes. Yes, it's a good dip power, but if you're playing an Oracle something close to levels 1-20 it doesn't matter. Besides, armor penalties still apply so Paladin in heavy armor still wouldn't benefit much from that mystery or a dex higher than a 12.
So, Heavens. First ability is the most powerful, taking your Cha and subtracting it from hd. The biggest effect is Color spray. Take our Level 8 gnome oracle illusion specialist. He has a +2 Cha headband, a Widen metamagic rod, and a 22 base (20 start, +2 level-up). Suddenly he is able to pump out 30 foot cone color sprays at DC19 that treat everyone as if they are 7 hd down (making it save or die below 11 hd). As a 1st level spell.
This I know has been interpreted and offically erataed to avoid that interpretation. I remember the thread a couple months ago.
The night sky lets him be an outdoor Perception master at night, and extend/empower a spell.
That doesn't seem too powerful, considering the limited circumstances. It would vary greatly though from DM to DM.
Overall, I'm starting to see the strengths of the Oracle and how it can be played well. I agree it's not as much a battle caster as the Cleric or Druid. Still it has it's own strengths.
This I know has been interpreted and offically erataed to avoid that interpretation. I remember the thread a couple months ago.
I couldn't find this. Could you point me in the right direction?
So, Heavens. First ability is the most powerful, taking your Cha and subtracting it from hd. The biggest effect is Color spray. Take our Level 8 gnome oracle illusion specialist. He has a +2 Cha headband, a Widen metamagic rod, and a 22 base (20 start, +2 level-up). Suddenly he is able to pump out 30 foot cone color sprays at DC19 that treat everyone as if they are 7 hd down (making it save or die below 11 hd). As a 1st level spell.This I know has been interpreted and offically erataed to avoid that interpretation. I remember the thread a couple months ago.
I reread it. It does not treat each individual as 7 HD down in that example. You would add the HD of all the creatures up and then subtract 7. The number you get is the number of HD you can affect. Thanks Kerney for getting me to read it again.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its
total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
I do see how it could be read both ways, but looking at the Rainbow Pattern spell makes things clear. I have playing for years, and I never even knew that spell existed.
PS: How many of the spells in the Heavens mystery actually depend on HD?
I couldn't find this. Could you point me in the right direction?
This I know has been interpreted and offically erataed to avoid that interpretation. I remember the thread a couple months ago.
There is no errata. I have the current book, but if you look at Rainbow Pattern and scintillating pattern it makes sense that the total HD of all affected creatures is what is affect, not each one individually. I do think the wording could be better though.
Something along the lines of..."When using an illusion (pattern) spell such as Rainbow Pattern that affects the HD of all creatures in it's area of affect you get to increase the number of total creatures affected by a number equal to your Charisma modifier. As an example Rainbow Pattern would affect 28 HD instead of 24 HD if your Charisma modifier is +4.
I follow with respect to Rainbow Pattern, but I'm not following if/how this changes the interpretation of Color Spray + Awesome Display upthread.
There's a Heavens Oracle in one of my games and I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
I follow with respect to Rainbow Pattern, but I'm not following if/how this changes the interpretation of Color Spray + Awesome Display upthread.
There's a Heavens Oracle in one of my games and I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
I don't think it is intended to work with color spray. It seems to be one of things that was overlooked. Color Spray does not add the HD together like the other spell does, and Rainbow Pattern is definitely intended for spells that add all the HD together.
If the player really wants to use it with color spray I would treat it like Rainbow Pattern and allow the HD limit to apply to everyone, not each individual monster. I am pretty sure he would not like for it to be used against the party in that manner, and that may bring some perspective if he disagrees with that ruling.
I don't think it is intended to work with color spray. It seems to be one of things that was overlooked.
I'm just not sure how that could be the case. It's an Illusion (Pattern) spell specifically given to a class that otherwise wouldn't have it as part of its mystery (and given to a class that doesn't have a lot of options of spells of that type without the mystery spell adds). Further, it's one of a handful of spells in the game where a number of HD of the victim is key. This just doesn't seem like something that could be an oversight to me.
It does make a level 1 spell almost ridiculously good for PF well beyond its shelf life for any other character, but I'm not sure how to read "Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive)." as anything but intended to work with Color Spray.
I grant you, "its total number of Hit Dice" is weird wording for both Color Spray and Rainbow Pattern.
I don't think it is intended to work with color spray. It seems to be one of things that was overlooked.I'm just not sure how that could be the case. It's an Illusion (Pattern) spell specifically given to a class that otherwise wouldn't have it as part of its mystery (and given to a class that doesn't have a lot of options of spells of that type without the mystery spell adds). Further, it's one of a handful of spells in the game where a number of HD of the victim is key. This just doesn't seem like something that could be an oversight to me.
It does make a level 1 spell almost ridiculously good for PF well beyond its shelf life for any other character, but I'm not sure how to read "Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive)." as anything but intended to work with Color Spray.
I grant you, "its total number of Hit Dice" is weird wording for both Color Spray and Rainbow Pattern.
It should have read "their total number of HD" to indicate everyone(bad guys) HD added together. The problem is the color spray is based on each creature, while the other one is not. The spell could be useful for color spray, and it would make it last for a few more levels, but I dont think that was the intent. Even if it was I don't think its broken to expand the power of a level one spell if you give up a class level and a feat. It will still run its course eventually. I would just plan around it(make sure it does not break too many early encounters). What level do you plan to run the game to?
So, Heavens. First ability is the most powerful, taking your Cha and subtracting it from hd. The biggest effect is Color spray. Take our Level 8 gnome oracle illusion specialist. He has a +2 Cha headband, a Widen metamagic rod, and a 22 base (20 start, +2 level-up). Suddenly he is able to pump out 30 foot cone color sprays at DC19 that treat everyone as if they are 7 hd down (making it save or die below 11 hd). As a 1st level spell.This I know has been interpreted and offically erataed to avoid that interpretation. I remember the thread a couple months ago.
I reread it. It does not treat each individual as 7 HD down in that example. You would add the HD of all the creatures up and then subtract 7. The number you get is the number of HD you can affect. Thanks Kerney for getting me to read it again.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if
I do see how it could be read both ways, but looking at the Rainbow Pattern spell makes things clear. I have playing for years, and I never even knew that spell existed.
PS: How many of the spells in the Heavens mystery actually depend on HD?
It pretty obviously says exactly what it says. Each creature is treated as if its hit dice are equal to its number of hit dice minus your Charisma Modifier.
Color spray and rainbow pattern. Hypnotic pattern would too if available.
Really though how many do you need?
Yes it is crazy powerful (in a way) and yes they knew about it coming out of the playtest (I brought it up then), no there isn't an errata and no it isn't just "wishful thinking" it's specifically what is stated by the ability in question, and has been the same since the playtest.
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Yeah, Abraham's writeup says what I was going to say... it's actually pretty obvious, the other way. It makes hypnotic / rainbow pattern godly, and Color Spray the best "heighten spell" target, like, ever. They really are, bar none, the best controllers in the game; especially with Gnome + Spell Focus: Illusion + Greater Spell Focus: Illusion.
Yeah, Abraham's writeup says what I was going to say... it's actually pretty obvious, the other way. It makes hypnotic / rainbow pattern godly, and Color Spray the best "heighten spell" target, like, ever. They really are, bar none, the best controllers in the game; especially with Gnome + Spell Focus: Illusion + Greater Spell Focus: Illusion.
And just to throw it not just over the top but out the window over the top and down the hall:
Go rage mage with it and take the lame curse.
At level 7 when you use clarity of mind to cast a spell you add your constitution modifier to the DC of the spell too.
Since your a Gnome I bet your Con mod is pretty good... and if you take the gnome favored class choice for oracle you probably have your curse benefits maxed out around level 10~12 meaning you can rage, use clarity of mind drop out of rage with no penalty and start raging again next round to do it all over again.
Might as well grab raging vitality while you are at it so that when you cast that spell you got an additional +1 on the DC.
I like Oracles. I've seen an oracle of life played well, with pretty good healing throughput. Right now I'm playing an oracle of battle in CoT. I support the fighter up front. We're only level 3 right now, but I alternate between being a heavy hitter and buffing/healing the fighter. Battle mystery spells and surprising charge take good tactics, but are very useful.
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The issue is: as decent as the Battle Oracle is, they're not even in the same realm of power of a battle cleric or a Druid, and can't maintain parody with fighters for long (their extra feats make them very similar to one for the first few levels). And it's a shame, because this is the worst potential build.
If I were wanting to build a battle oracle, I'd Lore Oracle 2 / Hospitaler 4 and move into Holy Crusader. Then you get the whole Cha to saves, ac, etc while having a huge pool of shared healing, a little selfish free-action healing. It's a solid build, may be my next PFS character. But the base battle oracle's popularity is what makes the Oracle look weak.
Even my Holy Vindicator is fairly weak, but highly defensible and would be fun. But a straight Battle Oracle falls victim to living in the shadow of the Druid he tries to be.
The issue is: as decent as the Battle Oracle is, they're not even in the same realm of power of a battle cleric
Can you explain this?
I mean, yeah, obviously the battle cleric has a ridiculous amount more versatility, but for your stereotypical "battle cleric I'm going to cast the big buffs and wade into melee" angle, I don't immediately see why Battle Oracle would be worse at it and generally seems better. You're missing out on useful domains vs. cleric, but. . .
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Domains are a big part of it; but in general one could say that mysteries are as good as domains (more effects, though domains if chosen correctly should give you either wizard-powered spells or effects that cannot be found elsewhere and stack with everything, like rerolls and an anti-magic freedom of movement).
The other parts are a bit more subtle. One good save instead of the cleric's 2 is huge. Fort is certainy the best save, and cleric gets it twice as fast, which becomes critical at mid-to-high. Even in the "good" save, clerics should outweigh their Oracle friend, since Wis contributes to saves and Cha doesn't.
Finally, 1 level earlier access to the "power" spells is perhaps the largest aspect. Divine Favor and Righteous Might are your bread and butter, and clerics get them earlier. It's the old "Mage vs Sorcerer" argument to the T, clerics get their spells earlier and one "Speciality" (domain) spell, Oracles get flexibility. In the end, being able to tailor your spells for the day-to-day is considered much more effective (you're diseased? All right let me mem a cure real fast), and the earlier access makes you overall more powerful every other level.
And this is even discounting channeling, the most effective out-of-combat heal in the game that you just happen to bring to the table.
Now Heaven Oracle is probably the most powerful class in the game, bar none (sorry Wiz lovers). But leave the battle divining to the clerics and especially Druids who do it far more effectively.
My two cents:
Oracles may be more focussed than clerics, but they're far from underpowered.
I'm playing an oracle of battle as a GMPC (i.e. character with the same rules as a PC, but run by the GM - we are short on players in our Saturday group, so I do this to fill the gaps in the party roster) in my Legacy of Fire game.
Since it's a GMPC, I don't play it how I'd play a PC (won't go all out because I want the actual PCs to be the stars and the GMPC more a support character).
I used battle since I started that character while we only had the playtest version, Life wasn't there, and I wanted something close to a good old cleric to compare the classes.
Even with the "kid gloves" on, that characters battle performance is fearsome. If I'd play that character to the hilt, he would bury everything.
And I don't think battle is the only mystery with great potential. Fire is great for blasters, life is for those who want to be the absolutely best healers ever, heavens is for some awesome stuff, and so on.
My problem with the oracle isn't that its under powered but that spontaneous casting for divine spells just isn't as interesting or as fun as arcane.
I agree; cleric spells just aren't as flashy (in general) as wizard spells. The cleric spell list is full of a lot of "buff" spells that you won't have the opportunity to cast more than once a battle.
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The DC's a gnome prophet should be able to obtain with Rage Prophet are incredibly high. I'm amazed they let that ability through.
I have a Gnome Oracle with 20 charisma and 16 constitution, so i'll be testing it out. However this is for PbP so will be a LONG time before i'm high enough level to see how it functions.
Finally, 1 level earlier access to the "power" spells is perhaps the largest aspect. Divine Favor and Righteous Might are your bread and butter, and clerics get them earlier. It's the old "Mage vs Sorcerer" argument to the T, clerics get their spells earlier and one "Speciality" (domain) spell, Oracles get flexibility. In the end, being able to tailor your spells for the day-to-day is considered much more effective (you're diseased? All right let me mem a cure real fast), and the earlier access makes you overall more powerful every other level.
I wonder if you're not considering Enlarge Person, which the Battle Oracle gets to cast on themselves after 2nd level. The damage output of Righteous Might is from the size increase, which Oracles get access to 7 levels earlier than clerics. Clerics pull ahead for 1 level, and then Oracles are back on a level playing field. In addition, a Battle Oracle gets access to ALL martial weapons with a Revelation or a single feat (through Extra Revelation).
I do agree, the oracles biggest drawback is weak Fortitude saves. I would gladly give up the 2 skill points for the saves to be the same as a Cleric. I don't think getting spells 1 level later is that big of a deal though, it matters, but in the long run it's not a huge issue. I would rather have seen the Oracles get their mystery spells earlier than later though.
Now Heaven Oracle is probably the most powerful class in the game, bar none (sorry Wiz lovers). But leave the battle divining to the clerics and especially Druids who do it far more effectively.
I am the best optimizer, but I normally notice things pretty quickly. What am I missing here? I don't see it ahead of the druid or wizard.
I am the best optimizer, but I normally notice things pretty quickly. What am I missing here? I don't see it ahead of the druid or wizard.
Now Heaven Oracle is probably the most powerful class in the game, bar none (sorry Wiz lovers). But leave the battle divining to the clerics and especially Druids who do it far more effectively.
Look at my post about the rage prophet heavens oracle above. You can have an absolutely amazing DC on a level 1 spell that can drop creatures with 17+ hit dice with proper planning while still having everything else.
Though I must say the lore domain's "have a wish a day for free" ability is quite awesome too.
I am the best optimizer, but I normally notice things pretty quickly. What am I missing here? I don't see it ahead of the druid or wizard.
Now Heaven Oracle is probably the most powerful class in the game, bar none (sorry Wiz lovers). But leave the battle divining to the clerics and especially Druids who do it far more effectively.
Look at my post about the rage prophet heavens oracle above. You can have an absolutely amazing DC on a level 1 spell that can drop creatures with 17+ hit dice with proper planning while still having everything else.
Though I must say the lore domain's "have a wish a day for free" ability is quite awesome too.
First an edit: I meant to say I am not the best optimizer. :)
I really think the lore mystery is the best one, and it was the first one to catch my eye. Knowledges may not come into play for many DM's but knowing how to deal with an opponent, or even if you can deal with it is a big help. The ability to cast arcane spells is not bad either. Later you get to add charisma to your knowledge checks. I would take a few that I though I might need. There were a few other revelations I liked for this one also. I do know the heavens one is powerful, but it is all based on one type of spell which is why I don't agree with that one being on par with a wizard. There are quiet a few monster that don't care about mind affecting spells. Many BBEG's are made to not be affected by them since they can insta-win a fight. As for the rage prophet I noticed that the other day when I finally started to seriously look through the book, but I had not picked up on your combo upthread. I will have to try that one out.