|
Don't bother Cold Napalm, he doesn't want to actually look at what you wrote, he just wants to be right.Are you raving like a lunatic or making an actual counterargument? I can't tell.
So the cleric taking an gaint club to the face that brought down the tank is a perfectly FINE option for your clerics then *facepalm*?!? Oh and losing the spell because of the damage no less. There is more then one forced to do action. You don't HAVE to spell combat your higest level spell either...except at low levels and I have already said that spell combat is a failure at those level...combat casting or not.
Actually I know exactly what he's talking about...I just disagree with it from the organic PoV. He is talking mechanically only...which is fine and mechanically speaking no class other then the magus is forced to cast defensively...but that doesn't mean that the magus is the ONLY class that ever has to make defensive casting rolls. I understand the math and theory...but that theory has to be in a setting that is likely to be encountered. To say you can avoid having to cast defensive 100% of the time is not likely to be encountered. Especially as a front liner like the paladin or a healer like the cleric. Hell smart enemies won't give the wizards an easy 5 ft step out either.
The ability to cast spells will require them to cast spells defensively on a regular basis unless your dm is completely incompetent.
I said class ability. Now which one is it?
So, it's settled then? Level 7 PCs with level 7 character wealth and 20 point buy? Combat cleric vs. magus? Evaluation of melee combat effectiveness?
I'll start looking into it tomorrow some time, or Sunday. It depends.
|
|
Will some one PLEASE tell me which Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, Druid, Bard, or any other class' ability literally forces the player to cast defensively to make use of it?Umm except as usual if you actually play the game they are forced to cast defensively all the time. Paladins are in melee they are supposed to melee quite often they will be completely surrounded by monsters and unable to take a 5 foot step nor would they want to. Clerics on the other hand = high priority target for killing once they bypass the melee they will go straight for the Cleric.Fine then, explain to me why the cleric and paladin don't need it.Double facepalm. For when one facepalm isn't enough.
That is a VERY simple explanation - NEITHER CLASS IS FORCED TO CAST DEFENSIVELY.
They cast a spell while threated. If you can say that there is a 100% chance that you will never ever need to cast defensively as a paladin or cleric or EK IN PLAY...then yes your mechanically only analysys works. Otherwise umm...no. Theorycraft is nice...but it also has to be in context. Like you sending a poor magus out against a giant with NO GEAR. Lets send a fighter out against a giant with no gear and see how well he does. My money is on the magus doing better (access to magic and all).
Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.
Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
We need Mods for these forums.
And ignore functions.
Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.
That said, different classes or different types of character inside of classes DO require Combat Casting.
That said, many of those classes don't require combat casting until defensive casting is significantly easier, and they typically use buffs or non-combat spells that allow them to, well, not need combat casting after all.
|
|
Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
I could say the same for you. You are either refusing to admit that spell casting is a class ability(I hope not...your quite a smart fellow after all)...or that you can...even theoretically avoid casting defensively 100% of the time in 100% of the situations of ALL ENCOUNTERS EVER.
|
|
Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.
That said, different classes or different types of character inside of classes DO require Combat Casting.
That said, many of those classes don't require combat casting until defensive casting is significantly easier, and they typically use buffs or non-combat spells that allow them to, well, not need combat casting after all.
Many...but not all ;) . I can't really disagree with anything you said...this time....
I can see an argument for improving at low levels, so long as it doesn't overpower it at high levels. By 7th level this class definitely shines when you play it in live action.
Seems like a big problem at level 2. You have a very limited amount of spells and risking them with 50% chance to cast giving your self -1 to hit seems to me to be not worth it. I play tested it and honestly I wouldn't even both using Spell Combat till 4th level. At 4th you get +2 CL for concentration, maybe a stat boost to Int for another +1. You will have weapon focus, arcane weapon and 3 BAB so your attacks aren't in the negative anymore.
Spell combat is a great ability I have nothing against it except getting it at level 2 kind of feels like useless ability for an average character build. I'd like to see it swapped to higher level as I posted earlier.
Not that that this is big deal though. I'd just not use Spell Combat much if at all till I had more spells and better chance at pulling it off.
No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
Which is not what I asked. I asked which ability of any of those classes forced the player - literally required them - to use the casting defensively mechanic. Both Decorus and Cold Napalm refuse to be anything but obtuse.
I'll start looking into it tomorrow some time, or Sunday. It depends.
Anybody else want to try to stat out a combat cleric for comparison before this?
|
I'll post it tonight. He'll chicken out when he actually opens a rulebook and reads it...Fine I pikc for you guys...do level 7Since you can't be assed to pick numbers out of the air when prompted, I don't care enough to do it for you.I neither know nor care.Now this will be a practical play test. Any level (or levels if you want to do a few) you want, you can pick the point spread, standard PC wealth from the book for the level(s)
Know nor care about what.
Pick a level. Open your book and look at what the PC wealth is for that level. Then pick your point spread from that level. It isn't complicated, and I'm giving you every advantage to cherry pick levels most favorable to you.
Or are you saying now that you've looked at it, you've decided not to participate and only want to go on complaining without testing.
So far here are my stats
Human Magus 718 Str (16 + 2 for Human)
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis (7 + 1 at 4th)
16 Int
8 Cha
46 HP (10 1st, 6 average for other levels)
Equip:
Longsword
Breastplate
Spells:
0 – Light, Mage Hand, Acid Splash, Flare, Ray of Frost
1 – Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Hydraulic Push, Magic Missle
2 – Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Bull’s Strength, Fire Breath
3 – Haste, Lightning Bolt
Arcana – Concentrate, Empower
I’ll figure out what I’m doing with the 22,785 on equipment and my 6 feats when I get home, but with just this I have a +9 to attack (+5 Base, + 4 Str, +1 Arcane Weapon) doing 1d8 +5 damage.
My Concentration is +10 without combat casting so that will almost certainly be a feat I take to bring me to +14. And that can be +18 once a day if I use the Concentrate Arcana after a bad roll. I will also probably take weapon focus, and I need to look at the other 4.
As far as equipment, I will get at least a +1 Weapon, a Ring of protection of some kind, and add some bonus to my armor. Which will leave plenty left over.
My saves are ok, 6 Fort, 2 Reflex 4 Will (-1 from wisdom)
I’m open for feedback and corrections, but I’m feeling pretty good about casting an empowered 7d6 lightning bolt while invisible, hitting him in the back at the same time for 1d8+5 damage. Possibly twice if I’m hasting.
That might be enough to take him out right there.
|
|
Actually I know exactly what he's talking about...I just disagree with it from the organic PoV. He is talking mechanically only...which is fine and mechanically speaking no class other then the magus is forced to cast defensively...but that doesn't mean that the magus is the ONLY class that ever has to make defensive casting rolls. I understand the math and theory...but that theory has to be in a setting that is likely to be encountered. To say you can avoid having to cast defensive 100% of the time is not likely to be encountered. Especially as a front liner like the paladin or a healer like the cleric. Hell smart enemies won't give the wizards an easy 5 ft step out either.Don't bother Cold Napalm, he doesn't want to actually look at what you wrote, he just wants to be right.Are you raving like a lunatic or making an actual counterargument? I can't tell.
So the cleric taking an gaint club to the face that brought down the tank is a perfectly FINE option for your clerics then *facepalm*?!? Oh and losing the spell because of the damage no less. There is more then one forced to do action. You don't HAVE to spell combat your higest level spell either...except at low levels and I have already said that spell combat is a failure at those level...combat casting or not.
It doesn't have to cast defensively any more than any other class. It just has to do it if it also wants to do a full attack in the same round, which no other class can do.
He keeps forgetting this part of it...
You wanna make an EK, you need combat basting.
If you're making a standard EK, and you're getting into melee, you're doing it wrong. The first hint about this is that you don't have any ability to cast in armor as an EK. The second hint is that your capstone ability benefits ranged attacks much more than it benefits melee attacks.
If you're making an entered-through-Magus EK, with things like the magus ability to cast in armor allowing you to melee, yeah, combat casting becomes important, instead of occasional. Of course, in that case, you'd have already needed it for the magus class, so giving it as a bonus to the magus actually gives it as a bonus to the EK.
No matter how this fight goes the Magus will most likely not get combat casting mainly because it doesn't make any sense with the way the ability works. Rather than fix the issue with a feat, it makes more sense to eliminate the penalty and give the players a choice to take the feat if they want a bonus. Just my 2c.
So, it's settled then? Level 7 PCs with level 7 character wealth and 20 point buy? Combat cleric vs. magus? Evaluation of melee combat effectiveness?
Whoever chose this, way to choose one of the lowest power levels of the Magus versus one of the highest power levels of the Cleric. The cleric just picked up his best buff, a little lvl 4 spell called Divine Power. The Magus is 1 level away from one of his best offensive spell (scorching ray) powering up, 1 level off spell combo penalties decreasing, and 1 level away from a better magic weapon. Granted he just picked up 3rd level spells so he can finally get off haste. But really, is the level you want to choose?
|
|
So, it's settled then? Level 7 PCs with level 7 character wealth and 20 point buy? Combat cleric vs. magus? Evaluation of melee combat effectiveness?Whoever chose this, way to choose one of the lowest power levels of the Magus versus one of the highest power levels of the Cleric. The cleric just picked up his best buff, a little lvl 4 spell called Divine Power. The Magus is 1 level away from one of his best offensive spell (scorching ray) powering up, 1 level off spell combo penalties decreasing, and 1 level away from a better magic weapon. Granted he just picked up 3rd level spells so he can finally get off haste. But really, is the level you want to choose?
I picked the level...and shush you, your giving away all my secrets. You and RE both...shush ;) .
So, it's settled then? Level 7 PCs with level 7 character wealth and 20 point buy? Combat cleric vs. magus? Evaluation of melee combat effectiveness?Whoever chose this, way to choose one of the lowest power levels of the Magus versus one of the highest power levels of the Cleric. The cleric just picked up his best buff, a little lvl 4 spell called Divine Power. The Magus is 1 level away from one of his best offensive spell (scorching ray) powering up, 1 level off spell combo penalties decreasing, and 1 level away from a better magic weapon. Granted he just picked up 3rd level spells so he can finally get off haste. But really, is the level you want to choose?
Anyone who wants to make the Combat Cleric at any level can pit the Cleric up against Schala the Magus at that level--I'd build the Cleric myself, but I figure whichever one turned out to be weaker I would be accused of favouritism.
Director of Games
|
Hey there folks,
Still monitoring threads here and this one is a bit too snarky. Lets tone it down a bit. Remember we are all hear for the same purpose. If you can't make your point without being sarcastic or offensive, maybe you should give the boards a rest and not be so antagonistic.
I don't want to have to start handing out warnings.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Sir Bashesalot
Human Cleric of Asmodeus (7)
18 Str
12 Dex
14 Con
16 Wis
7 Int
9 Chr
46 Hp 10 first 6 Every other
BAB +10 5+4+1(WF)
Fort:7
Reflex: 3
Will:8
Feats
Improved Channel
Extra Channel
Combat Casting
Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace)
Channel Smite
Shield Focus
Domains (Fire/Trickery)
Fire Bolt 1d6+3 6/day
Fire Resistance 10
CopyCat 1 Mirror Image for 7 rounds 6/day
Channel Negative Energy 4d6 points of damage DC 13 4/day (Damn you low Charisma)
0 Bleed, Resistance, Guidance, Virtue
1 Cure Light Bane Command Doom Shield of Faith Burning Hands
2 Aid, Cure Moderate wounds, hold person, Spiritual Weapon, Invisibility
3 Bestow Curse Dispel Magic Blindness Fireball
4 Divine Power Wall of Fire
To be fair I'll mirror your gear exactly except a heavy mace instead of a longsword.
I'm pretty confident my combination of Wall of Fire and debuffs will be extremely effective:)
|
|
Which is not what I asked. I asked which ability of any of those classes forced the player - literally required them - to use the casting defensively mechanic. Both Decorus and Cold Napalm refuse to be anything but obtuse.No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
We are not being abtuse. What forces the magus to use spell combat then? If the other classes won't even remotely try and cast defensively while threatened, why should the magus try in the same situation?!? By your logic, spell combat is fine because until the magus can get a good chance of success he can just not do it. You know like spell casters not casting spells.
We are not being abtuse. What forces the magus to use spell combat then? If the other classes won't even remotely try and cast defensively while threatened, why should the magus try in the same situation?!? By your logic, spell combat is fine because until the magus can get a good chance of success he can just not do it. You know like spell casters not casting spells.Which is not what I asked. I asked which ability of any of those classes forced the player - literally required them - to use the casting defensively mechanic. Both Decorus and Cold Napalm refuse to be anything but obtuse.No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
Spell Combat being their primary class ability is what makes them want to use it.
|
We are not being abtuse. What forces the magus to use spell combat then? If the other classes won't even remotely try and cast defensively while threatened, why should the magus try in the same situation?!? By your logic, spell combat is fine because until the magus can get a good chance of success he can just not do it. You know like spell casters not casting spells.
There are multiple situations where you can escape an AOO while casting spells. In order to utilize Spell Combat, the spell must be cast defensively. There's no maneuvering, planning ahead or previously cast buffs that let you attempt to use Spell Combat without casting it defensively.
Other classes, even those often in melee, have options:
- Risk the AoO anyway - either because of buffs such as displacement or sanctuary, or becuase your AC is high enough of the threatening enemy not threatening enough for you to consider the AoO a serious problem.
- Take a 5' step back and cast
- Withdraw this round, cast next
- Stay out of combat entirely
- Cast before entering melee and hold the charge until you can discharge your spell
Spell Combat, which is clearly, at least to me, a signature ability of the Magus - defining ability, even - requires casting defensively - at penalty - in all cases. You cannot try to retreat and cast without risk from a better position - the risk is part of the action, as opposed to a possible consequence of circumstances.
I have created many melee focused arcane/fighter multiclass characters over the years - it's my favorite archetype, and why I keep bringing up my desire for an arcane analogue for the ranger / paladin niche - and I ended up casting defensively, even under the kinder 3.5 concentration mechanic, about 5 times - in at least 30-40 6+ hour sessions of game time.
I avoided it for a very simple reason - spell slots are precious, and losing one makes me feel awful. Having a class mechanic that forces me to take a significant (>10% is significant to me, personally) risk of losing a spell slot makes that class absolutely unacceptable for me to play. The magus isn't really what I was looking for anyway, however, so I guess I"m not the target audience.
|
|
Sir Bashesalot
Human Cleric of Asmodeus (7)I'm pretty confident my combination of Wall of Fire and debuffs will be extremely effective:)
Not bad, but my lightning bolt can cast right through the wall of fire, and invisibility is minutes per level, allowing me to walk around and position myself to attack with haste on while casting the empowered lightning bolt.
that is 7d6 (21+10 for empowered) for 31 damage average, assuming you don't make the reflex save. Add to that 1d8+5 x 2 for my attacks, at full attack bonus which will come with the bonuses I gave, and that is a total damage of 49 for the first attack I make, if I hit you, which is probably 50/50 so let say for 40 damage, which still means you are down to 6 hit points after my first attack.
See why I don't think it's underpowered.
|
|
What forces the magus to use spell combat then?Spell Combat being their primary class ability is what makes them want to use it.Bingo. Nothing forces the Magus to use spell combat. Just like nothing forces a rogue to sneak attack and nothing forces a paladin to smite evil, either. However, when you have something that no other class can do it becomes a defining ability. Such things shouldn't carry heavy penalties to being used.
I would agree, if rogues could also cast up to 6th level spells. It is a feature of the class, and it is what makes it unique, but it is also basically doubling the actions. Some penalty for that is reasonable in the same way a penalty for two weapon fighting is reasonable.
|
|
I picked the level...and shush you, your giving away all my secrets. You and RE both...shush ;) .So, it's settled then? Level 7 PCs with level 7 character wealth and 20 point buy? Combat cleric vs. magus? Evaluation of melee combat effectiveness?Whoever chose this, way to choose one of the lowest power levels of the Magus versus one of the highest power levels of the Cleric. The cleric just picked up his best buff, a little lvl 4 spell called Divine Power. The Magus is 1 level away from one of his best offensive spell (scorching ray) powering up, 1 level off spell combo penalties decreasing, and 1 level away from a better magic weapon. Granted he just picked up 3rd level spells so he can finally get off haste. But really, is the level you want to choose?
I'm actually relieved it was 7th so I have two 3rd level spells. I don't think people are wrong that it could use a tweak at low levels, but I feel fine at this level.
|
|
Spell Combat being their primary class ability is what makes them want to use it.We are not being abtuse. What forces the magus to use spell combat then? If the other classes won't even remotely try and cast defensively while threatened, why should the magus try in the same situation?!? By your logic, spell combat is fine because until the magus can get a good chance of success he can just not do it. You know like spell casters not casting spells.Which is not what I asked. I asked which ability of any of those classes forced the player - literally required them - to use the casting defensively mechanic. Both Decorus and Cold Napalm refuse to be anything but obtuse.No class abilitiy requires Combat Casting.Casting spells is a class ability. It requires casting on the defensive. Honestly I don't understand how you can refuse to accept that reality.Apparently both you and Cold Napalm refuse to be rational.
And spell casting for a caster isn't....
And spell casting for a caster isn't....
Sure it is! But spellcasting in combat is not for most characters, and for those who do wish to cast spells in combat, they likely will not do so until they reach a level at which combat casting is no longer needed.
You already agreed with me on this :|
|
|
And spell casting for a caster isn't....Sure it is! But spellcasting in combat is not for most characters, and for those who do wish to cast spells in combat, they likely will not do so until they reach a level at which combat casting is no longer needed.
You already agreed with me on this :|
The question for this thread is if the class is balanced vs other classes of comparable levels.
If you allow the Magus to cast a spell and get a full attack each round, would it then be balanced, or unbalanced.
Sir Bashesalot
Human Cleric of Asmodeus (7)I'm pretty confident my combination of Wall of Fire and debuffs will be extremely effective:)
Not bad, but my lightning bolt can cast right through the wall of fire, and invisibility is minutes per level, allowing me to walk around and position myself to attack with haste on while casting the empowered lightning bolt.
that is 7d6 (21+10 for empowered) for 31 damage average, assuming you don't make the reflex save. Add to that 1d8+5 x 2 for my attacks, at full attack bonus which will come with the bonuses I gave, and that is a total damage of 49 for the first attack I make, if I hit you, which is probably 50/50 so let say for 40 damage, which still means you are down to 6 hit points after my first attack.
See why I don't think it's underpowered.
I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be a melée comparison, not a PvP analysis.
Tell me how they'll each manage against a stone giant and against a t-rex.|
|
Ok, update
Human Magus 7
18 Str (16 + 2 for Human)
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis (7 + 1 at 4th)
16 Int
8 Cha
53 HP (10 1st, 6 average for other levels + 7 for favored class (thanks F. Castor)
AC is 17 (1 dex, 6 Breastplate) This will obviously go up with better equipment.
Equip:
Longsword
Breastplate
Spells:
0 – Light, Mage Hand, Acid Splash, Flare, Ray of Frost
1 – Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Hydraulic Push, Magic Missle
2 – Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Bull’s Strength, Fire Breath
3 – Haste, Lightning Bolt
Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Eschew Materials, Lightning Reflexes.
Arcana – Concentrate, Empower
I'm still deciding on equipment, but so far with just this I have a +10 to attack (+8 if I power attack) (+5 Base, + 4 Str, +1 Arcane Weapon) doing 1d8 +5 damage (+9 if I power attack).
My Concentration is now +14, and I'm leaning toward a headband of intellect to improve that, but I will cross that bridge later. And that can be +19 once a day if I use the Concentrate Arcana after a bad roll.
My saves are ok, 6 Fort, 5 Reflex, 4 Will (-1 from wisdom)
Still open for feedback and corrections, as well as equipment suggestions.
Still open for feedback and corrections, as well as equipment suggestions.
What about the favored class bonus? You know, an extra skill point or hit point?
Also, traits?
|
|
Sir Bashesalot
Human Cleric of Asmodeus (7)I'm pretty confident my combination of Wall of Fire and debuffs will be extremely effective:)
Not bad, but my lightning bolt can cast right through the wall of fire, and invisibility is minutes per level, allowing me to walk around and position myself to attack with haste on while casting the empowered lightning bolt.
that is 7d6 (21+10 for empowered) for 31 damage average, assuming you don't make the reflex save. Add to that 1d8+5 x 2 for my attacks, at full attack bonus which will come with the bonuses I gave, and that is a total damage of 49 for the first attack I make, if I hit you, which is probably 50/50 so let say for 40 damage, which still means you are down to 6 hit points after my first attack.
See why I don't think it's underpowered.
I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be a melée comparison, not a PvP analysis.
Tell me how they'll each manage against a stone giant and against a t-rex.
This thread is about keeping the Magus balanced with other classes, adding where needed because it doesn't measure up, taking away where overpowered.
We did a Hill Giant earlier, I think the same strategy works with a Stone Giant and a T-Rex. Stone Giant has 102 hit points, T-Rex is 153. I don't think anyone would do well going solo with them in Melee, but since T-Rex is CR 9 lets take a level 9 Magus, who could fly (helpful in this fight) and use 9d6 area attacks (also helpful).
The Magus isn't supposed to out fighter the fighter. It is supposed to be a versatile damage dealer. I think it is, with some possible weaknesses at lower levels that can be addressed fairly easily. I think even a figher or a barbarian would have trouble at the same level in melee taking on a T-Rex or a Stone Giant, solo. I think the Magus actually has a better shot in that particular battle.
But I'm open for people showing otherwise.
|
|
Still open for feedback and corrections, as well as equipment suggestions.What about the favored class bonus? You know, an extra skill point or hit point?
Also, traits?
Good point, that would be another 7 hit points. I still need to work out skills, which aren't bad at 5 per level given the Int bonus.
I'm going to leave out traits unless someone else wants to throw them in.
Thanks for the help, I often overlook the little things :)
I won't even insult your intelligence by doing it with a combat-oriented Druid.
Please do. If you have the time and are up to it I would be very happy if you create new thread and show me.
We have a druid in our party right now, and he is not doing fine. Although the druid is far from optimized for melee and in this campaign we don't use any APG stuff.Still, druids have a problem bypassing DR and they do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
Me I would NEVER play a Magus. I rather play a Arcane Duelist or an Eldritch Knight.
Most AP don't run higher that level 17. I'm not sure if any AP actually goes higher. Let us take a look at a 17 level EN vs a Magus. I gonna be kind and not include bonus spell from high int. and. I'm also gonna be kind a build the EK not using a sorcerer or a specialized Wizard
Level 17: Fighter 1/EN 10/Wizard - Universalist 6. BAB 14, Spells per day (not including bonus spells) 26. Highest spell level: 8
Level 17: Magus 17. BAB 12, spells per day (not including bonus spells): 25, highest spell level 6.
At level 17 an EK will have a higher BAB, access to more powerful fighter feats, access to higher spell levels and more powerful spells, , more spells per day, The EK will be more powerful and flexible casters since they can use meta magic feats to a greater extent (since they have more spells and higher spell levels). Wizards also have access to a more versatile spell list.
The Magus suffer from some of the same problem a bard has.
They get spell late
They don't have many spells per day
They lack high level spells
Someone once wrote, the bard suffers from casting spell = not fighting that round. Full casters can use quicken spell, either by using rods or using the quicken spell feat. But both the Bard and the Magus get spells late and they don't get access to high level slots. This means they can't even cast a quicken Mirror Image, Blur, etc until level 17 and a lot of AP doesn't even run that high. This mean they can NEVER cast a quicken Mirror Image, unless the AP runs to level 17, less Haste or a Slow. Sure the Magus can pick Quickened Magic, so once per day he can cast a quicken spell, but that's once per day.
Sure Both the bard and the Magus could get a quicken meta magic rod, but if they want to use a weapon this is a problem, The problem is even greater if you use a shield.
I guess you could pick quick draw, but there is no quick Sheathe feat and we still haven't received an answer if quick draw applies to rods. I doubt we get an official answer during this playtest, so you can't playtest your Magus with quick draw and rods because it might not be legit.
True the EK will still have the problem of arcane spell failure, but this can be solved by a number of ways. Use silent spell, using arcane armor training, or simply not using armor but rely on spells and bracers or armor and a mithral shield. If you don't care for armor a EK build on a sorcerer would have something like 40 spells per day. If you play a Human EK/Sorcerer with the new Favored Class Options giving you more spells known would give the sorcerer all the spells know she needs. Obviously EK would be your Favored Class.
If magus is the class for you go for it, but me I would never play one.
And spell casting for a caster isn't....
Please show me where in spellcasting it says "To use this ability, you must cast defensively."
Dude,
You clearly are not Munchkin material.
Take the munchkin test? Mr. Fishy scored under munchkin but not by much. Mr. Fishy has a friend that scored a 72.
We need Mods for these forums.
And ignore functions.
And Troll Points! Mr. Fishy still wants "troll points."
Please show me where in spellcasting it says "To use this ability, you must cast defensively."
And spell casting for a caster isn't....
Please show Mr. Fishy in spellcasting were it says "with a full attack including extra attacks for high BAB." Every class feature has a balancing flaw, situational or a penalty, [AC, flanking/flatfooted, attack rolls, saves]. Penalties aren't new or exclusive. So stop being "obtuse" be isosceles it has a point.
Please show Mr. Fishy in spellcasting were it says "with a full attack including extra attacks for high BAB."
No, because I don't have to. It has nothing to do with the fact of what I said.
Would it not get me banned, my posts, at this point, would be full of multisyllable insults to your peoples' intelligence.