Starting with a bang, Need advice from players and DMs


Advice

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Okay so I want to start a campaign at 1st level with an absolutely brutal encounter with a homebrew creature that is believed to be immortal. In the setting the characters will be far greater than average people(I use rolled stats 4d6 reroll 1s and 2s keep highest).

The plan is this, I'm going to have each player make two characters. They will all start in a tavern when this immortal creature walks in and tells the barkeep to lock the doors then proceeds to kill everyone but the bar staff. The players will either have to defend themselves or kill the bar staff to get out. I intend for the creature to take out half the party before dying(hence every player rolling up 2 characters).

What this is supposed to accomplish is three things:

1. The characters now have made enemies with the immortal creatures who are associated with the law of the land making them outlaws.

2. Setting the tone for a very gritty game.

3. Hopefully the characters get how epic it is to actually kill one of these creatures believed to be immortal. The people of the land certainly will and will treat the characters as living legends.

So here is where I need advice:

Is this a good idea?

As a player would you like this or would it piss you off?

Should I let the players know ahead of time that I will kill half of them off in the first hour of the game?

How should I make the creature mechanically? I'm thinking low DR, a small amount of fast healing, and a load of HP. He will wield a longsword so his damage will be fairly low (1d8 + 3 1 attack while he's toying with them, then when he hits about half HP and gets serious 2 attacks)


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:

Okay so I want to start a campaign at 1st level with an absolutely brutal encounter with a homebrew creature that is believed to be immortal. In the setting the characters will be far greater than average people(I use rolled stats 4d6 reroll 1s and 2s keep highest).

The plan is this, I'm going to have each player make two characters. They will all start in a tavern when this immortal creature walks in and tells the barkeep to lock the doors then proceeds to kill everyone but the bar staff. The players will either have to defend themselves or kill the bar staff to get out. I intend for the creature to take out half the party before dying(hence every player rolling up 2 characters).

What this is supposed to accomplish is three things:

1. The characters now have made enemies with the immortal creatures who are associated with the law of the land making them outlaws.

2. Setting the tone for a very gritty game.

3. Hopefully the characters get how epic it is to actually kill one of these creatures believed to be immortal. The people of the land certainly will and will treat the characters as living legends.

So here is where I need advice:

Is this a good idea?

As a player would you like this or would it piss you off?

Should I let the players know ahead of time that I will kill half of them off in the first hour of the game?

How should I make the creature mechanically? I'm thinking low DR, a small amount of fast healing, and a load of HP. He will wield a longsword so his damage will be fairly low (1d8 + 3 1 attack while he's toying with them, then when he hits about half HP and gets serious 2 attacks)

It is not fun to make a character just to have it killed off, especially when you find out the DM "set you up". 1st level is dangerous enough by itself since once good crit can kill your character. Grittiness develops along the course of a campaign, not just in the course of one battle. If you want to be challenging, don't fudge dice, and just use good tactics.

I would let them know ahead of time, but they might not like the idea. Another issue is how will they see it as gritty if they you will let them survive the first encounter?

For players to be worried things have to happen naturally. Telling me my character has no chance(at success or failure) before I even play just makes me think my decisions don't matter.

Dark Archive

You are going to run into something of a problem in that each player is going to have to do twice the setup for the game and that they are only going to be able to one of them. Meaning that there is a high chance that somebody is going to end up with a character they don't really want to play over the other one.

Second, doing it this way will encourage players to make a DPS and a Battery. I have seen it happen every time a player starts with 2 PC's and I doubt it will be any different here.

Next, the PC's are gong to have average scores way higher than they are supposed to be. They will level out somewhere around a point buy of 28-30. I mean if are fine throwing the party against CR +3 groups of monsters each time then go ahead but you are going to have to do more homework to prepare your game against these monster PC's you are allowing.

I don't want to rain on your parade but for you to have this first encounter balanced the monster will never be able to miss and almost certainly 1-shot any PC it comes close to meaning the party only has 3-4 rounds to kill it before it becomes impossible because the only thing the players would have on their side is action economy. Unless you WANT the creature so simply be offed with no effort.

With 6-10 PCs running around there is no way to make this encounter deadly without making him nearly impossible to kill.


Personally, I don't care for the idea. You're immediately placing the PCs in an extremely difficult situation without their choice, in which there is the very high probability their character will die and not get the richness of exposition and development they deserve. "How come X gets to play his cool character just because he stood in the back and lobbed arrows?" Not to mention the problems that arise when right off the bat you shove down the players' throats how powerless they are. Whatever you decide to do, I think it's imperative to tell the players that you're going to kill half of their characters. Otherwise, I can definitely see this plant the seeds of campaign destruction.

A couple questions...(which may not be answered if they're considered a spoiler to folks on the boards)

1) What is an immortal being doing slaughtering (seemingly) innocent folks in a tavern?

2) Are the bar staff complying just to avoid getting killed by this dude, or are they fervently guarding the exits?


wraithstrike wrote:


It is not fun to make a character just to have it killed off, especially when you find out the DM "set you up". 1st level is dangerous enough by itself since once good crit can kill your character. Grittiness develops along the course of a campaign, not just in the course of one battle. If you want to be challenging, don't fudge dice, and just use good tactics.
I would let them know ahead of time, but they might not like the idea. Another issue is how will they see it as gritty if they you will let them survive the first encounter?

For players to be worried things have to happen naturally. Telling me my character has no chance(at success or failure) before I even play just makes me think my decisions don't matter.

They will survive the first encounter, only about half of them would, which is why they all roll up two characters. Maybe I didn't make it clear but they will all only be playing one character after this encounter, the one that survives the fight.

For the overall story arc as I currently have planned I need them to take down one of these Immortals early, and I don't want to make a weak one to have go down easily(or even difficultly) at 1st level. They are supposed to be scarred s*&%less of these creatures and do everything in their power to avoid them until the second fight with one at about 5th level which is still supposed to be a very challenging fight. I am open to suggestions as to how to accomplish this.

edit: posted under wrong allias


PCs don't like having their characters killed off arbitrarily.

Of course, they don't enjoy dying *at all*, but if they're gonna die, they'd rather die heroically, trying to save others (not just themselves).

Give Kryptik's first question some serious consideration, and develop some motivations for this supposed immortal. Have him target some innocent victims, and let the PCs decide if they want to intervene. If they engage the villain, let him demonstrate his staggering power for a round or two, and then vamoose, swearing he'll be back with an army or two. Now the PCs know they're outmatched, and their days are numbered. Instant gritty.

Don't back them into a corner by telling them they have to kill the bar staff if they want to survive. Ethical dilemmas can be fun to role-play, but wait until the players have had a chance to develop their characters.

Dark Archive

I agree with all of the above. In addition, it will strain your players' suspension-of-disbelief if each of them has one remaining character after the fight.

If you want to go gritty, don't start off by intending to kill characters. This encourages player-vs.-DM rivalry, and this is the LAST thing you want. The DM is really on the players' side; the only reason we throw monsters at our PCs is to give them a good story to tell. It's no fun when everyone dies. When you forget this, you endanger the "having fun" rule of gaming.

Grittiness comes from atmosphere. The town guards might be corrupt and secretly selling drugs or slaves, people might be murdered in their beds often, the town might be plagued by supernaturally bad weather. Your players will probably enjoy being the saviors of the gritty world rather than the victims of it, so go ahead and give them those unkillable level 1 PCs--but only one PC each. If you've got to kill someone, kill the innocent bystanders and friendly NPCs. There's nothing more gritty than the PCs feeling like it's their fault when someone dies.


Kryptik wrote:

ot be answered if they're considered a spoiler to folks on the boards)

1) What is an immortal being doing slaughtering (seemingly) innocent folks in a tavern?

To add to this, I have never been to brave to run away as a player, and your players might get smart and do that.


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


It is not fun to make a character just to have it killed off, especially when you find out the DM "set you up". 1st level is dangerous enough by itself since once good crit can kill your character. Grittiness develops along the course of a campaign, not just in the course of one battle. If you want to be challenging, don't fudge dice, and just use good tactics.
I would let them know ahead of time, but they might not like the idea. Another issue is how will they see it as gritty if they you will let them survive the first encounter?

For players to be worried things have to happen naturally. Telling me my character has no chance(at success or failure) before I even play just makes me think my decisions don't matter.

They will survive the first encounter, only about half of them would, which is why they all roll up two characters. Maybe I didn't make it clear but they will all only be playing one character after this encounter, the one that survives the fight.

For the overall story arc as I currently have planned I need them to take down one of these Immortals early, and I don't want to make a weak one to have go down easily(or even difficultly) at 1st level. They are supposed to be scarred s*&%less of these creatures and do everything in their power to avoid them until the second fight with one at about 5th level which is still supposed to be a very challenging fight. I am open to suggestions as to how to accomplish this.

Use a DM plot device to help them escape(not beat the monster, but escape)*. I am assuming they will want to know what it was. That is when during the information gathering phase you can build up the monster's bad assness. If it is a boss fight for a 5th level party that would make it about a CR 8. It should be able to ignore the party's attacks while tying to kill a commoner. That way nobody has to die, and the party is still intimidated since most of them cant hit it's AC reliably, and if it has DR let them know they not doing much to hurt it.

*Such as it is looking for a specific person in the bar. It kills/kidnaps the person and leaves.

edit: They wont be afraid once you tell them(they figure out) the fight was pre-planned. The party has to be naturally on its heals to be worried. If they can't kill it dont even stat it up right now. You might want to make up an AC and saves, but it should be in and out before the stats matter. This also avoids any lucky crits on the player's part.


Kryptic wrote:

1) What is an immortal being doing slaughtering (seemingly) innocent folks in a tavern?

2) Are the bar staff complying just to avoid getting killed by this dude, or are they fervently guarding the exits?

1. The immortal is CE and has just received his power(the characters will know of this), he essentially walks in and says "You all are guilty." When one of the commoners asks "what are we guilty of?" the immortal will say something to the affect of "Challenging my rule and you are all accomplices" then proceed to kill the commoners closest to him.

2. The staff know that by not actively helping the immortal they will not only seal their own fate, but quite possibly endanger the lives of their loved ones.

There will be many other commoners in the room, probably around seven or eight. The immortal will clear them out first.

I see that this is generally a bad idea, I certainly had thought that a possibility upon posting this(I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't think it was at best grey territory). So how do I reasonably accomplish what needs to be done? The story goals again are that an Immortal has to be killed by the players at a very early level. Doing so has to be a brutal battle and they have to walk away from the fight never wanting to engage with an immortal again.

Could I run it the same way but include other somewhat well known adventurers who do get killed and the pcs happen to score the final blows after the immortal finishes them off?


The pcs know what this monster is. Everyone in the world knows what they are. No one stands up to them because they are believed to be immortal, and because they themselves believe they are immortal they have no fear of death. They are basically law enforcers who are judge jury and executioner and brutal acts like the one I had originally planned are not common but hey are not unheard of either. If the PCs don't kill one then one needs to die and the Pcs need to be there to be given credit/blame for doing it.

Dark Archive

From the way you phrase it, I don't think any PC i've ever made in my 15+ years of gaming would give even give this encounter a second thought. My first reaction would be to escape and if that doesn't work the next step would to be assist this demi-god type creature.


This, as a player, would send up alarms in my head if I'm part of a regularly-sized gaming group. I get to make 2 characters but there are 3-4-5-6 players? What are we up to here? Here's are things to consider:

1) How are you going to make sure you only kill 1 character of each player? Killing half the party =/= killing 1 character per player necessarily.

2) You may end up with a party that has an unusual composition that is hard to deal with (e.g. you have a bard, 2 rogues, and an alchemist survive while the fighter, cleric, sorcerer, and ranger bite it) as a GM or hard for the players to work with. What are you doing to prepare for this in advance?

3) The party's 1st level. If this thing is so great and immortal and all that and they kill it at 1st level, that isn't going to feel necessarily all that awesome. You're going to have to be careful with the set-up. I mean, a troll at this level would be able to give them that same sense of accomplishment and it's an everyday kind of monster.


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:


I see that this is generally a bad idea,

At least you are willing to listen :) What I'd do is let the game go for a couple sessions with some random encounters, maybe a small set piece dungeon (clear the sewers, that sort of thing) during which the players find out about these immortals. It allows the next stage to develop more naturally. THEN show them an Immortal in action against someone entirely unrelated (and more powerful), and THEN make them the focus of the Immortals ire. Sure, it takes longer, but it helps keep the suspension of disbelief going, and doesn't feel as much like a total rail road.

Now to this specific critter- is he an aberration from the norm of these dudes? CE and justice don't really go hand in hand. Did he get the power illegitimately?


I would give some players premade paladins of lvl 2 or 3, have the group fight the immortal, he kills commoners, then he attacks paladins who are in melee (hope the other chars aren't in melee and are able to run away), kill the paladins (make damn sure of that), and have the other get away, because they are kind of cowards and won't risk their lifes even if the paladins do.

This should accomplish what you want. The paladins won't kill the barmaids, and will at least try to kill the Immortal by their code. (okay, I'm one of those who think paladins are suicidal because of their code, I admit)

Only problem I see, it will be VERY obvious why you forced some of your players to play paladins.


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:
The pcs know what this monster is. Everyone in the world knows what they are. No one stands up to them because they are believed to be immortal, and because they themselves believe they are immortal they have no fear of death. They are basically law enforcers who are judge jury and executioner and brutal acts like the one I had originally planned are not common but hey are not unheard of either. If the PCs don't kill one then one needs to die and the Pcs need to be there to be given credit/blame for doing it.

1st level characters are generally right out of wizard/fighter/etc school. Being a hero is one thing, but being stupid is something else. Like I said you are not making the situation gritty, and if you just give your player's background knowledge of the world they would know they can't take these things on.

I had a friend run a campaign where people(most of the world) were afraid of a creature he had made. Our characters(as part of out background stories) were wrong by these things in some way so we started a resistance. We eventually fought one and beat it. We almost got our butts kicked though.
Just by setting the mood of the campaign world so that it is hard to survive, while also having to worry about these enforcers makes it gritty. Keeping the idea of them being unkillable also helps. Another issue is that if they hurt it they will know it can die. It is best to keep everything mysterious so they are really worried if they have a chance or not.


Ender_rpm wrote:
Phi'Shaw DM wrote:


I see that this is generally a bad idea,

THEN show them an Immortal in action against someone entirely unrelated (and more powerful), and THEN make them the focus of the Immortals ire.

This is a good idea. Show it killing something powerful(to a first level party) would help build up the suspense.

Maybe if the PC's unknowingly harbor a victim they become a target, or they could just decide enough is enough, and actively try to take this empire down.

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:
Another issue is that if they hurt it they will know it can die. It is best to keep everything mysterious so they are really worried if they have a chance or not.

One way to help with this is to have the party catch a glace of one of these things in action being wounded or even forced to flee when it gets itself cornered or put into a bad situation of its own fault.

Like he said if the see it being wounded they will know that they aren't necessarily immortal.


Carbon D. Metric wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Another issue is that if they hurt it they will know it can die. It is best to keep everything mysterious so they are really worried if they have a chance or not.

One way to help with this is to have the party catch a glace of one of these things in action being wounded or even forced to flee when it gets itself cornered or put into a bad situation of its own fault.

Like he said if the see it being wounded they will know that they aren't necessarily immortal.

I thought the OP wanted the PC's to be afraid of it. If the immortal runs away the players wont be afraid enough. I would go so far as to have false rumors spread about its power.

PS:If the PC's kill this thing in public won't they get in trouble with the "authorities". I see a fugitive campaign coming.


Ender_rpm wrote:
Phi'Shaw DM wrote:


I see that this is generally a bad idea,

At least you are willing to listen :) What I'd do is let the game go for a couple sessions with some random encounters, maybe a small set piece dungeon (clear the sewers, that sort of thing) during which the players find out about these immortals. It allows the next stage to develop more naturally. THEN show them an Immortal in action against someone entirely unrelated (and more powerful), and THEN make them the focus of the Immortals ire. Sure, it takes longer, but it helps keep the suspension of disbelief going, and doesn't feel as much like a total rail road.

Now to this specific critter- is he an aberration from the norm of these dudes? CE and justice don't really go hand in hand. Did he get the power illegitimately?

I am willing to listen. The few times I have dmed before I have always had these great stories to tell and then I get tripped up on doing something like this that puts the game in jeopardy. The only difference this time is that in stead of getting to 4th or 14th level I'm trying to do it at 1st :) That and I'm actually seeking advice.

Okay so it seems to get the help I need I need to go into the world background a bit, I will try to be concise.

The land the PCs are in is ruled by an immortal who is LE. He appointed ten Magistrates and made them immortal. This happened so long ago that even the elves are hazy as to how the Immortal King gained power. The Magistrates enforce the law as they see fit and are also predominately LE. Their children also become Immortal and are promoted to the rank of Deputy. After service for so long a deputy goes to serve the Immortal King on his private estates, and a new deputy is breed to be his replacement. The Deputies have been of any alignment but are usually evil. This particular Deputy has just been raised and given the authority of Deputy. It is not uncommon for a newly raised Deputy to act out like this upon first being raised. (as an aside the terms deputy and magistrate are place holders and may change if I can think of something cooler before the game starts). Paladins are extremely rare in this land due to the LE society and the power of the Deputies(also the magistrates know that the deputies are not immortal and often see to any Paladin, or anyone else, who starts gaining enough power to undermine the system). Also this land has very few gods all of which are nameless, and those are not openly worshiped by penalty of law.

The plan for the characters, in a nut shell, is they somehow through luck kill a newly appointed Deputy, are forced to flee town and pick up odd jobs from undesirables in new towns, until someone recognizes them and they're forced to move along. Eventually they meet an elf who also killed a deputy 100 years ago and learn a little more about deputies and then finally are forced to take a stand against the one pursuing them. After dispatching two deputies the PCs are encouraged by the good people of the world to use this power to topple the government since the PCs seem to be immortal killers.


wraithstrike wrote:

PS:If the PC's kill this thing in public won't they get in trouble with the "authorities". I see a fugitive campaign coming.

Yes a fugitive/revolution campaign is exactly the plan.

Also I have to leave right now. I appreciate all the help and will be back on later so please any help to work out the kinks of my campaign start is greatly appreciated.


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:
The plan for the characters, in a nut shell, is they somehow through luck kill a newly appointed Deputy

And here's another problem. You're planning for luck. And good luck at that. What if the PCs keep rolling poorly? What if no one comes up with a great idea about how to kill this thing? What if it gets lucky instead and offs too many PCs? The only planning for luck that should occur is to plan for bad luck, i.e. plan for the worst and hope for the best.

That said, the world idea is interesting. I'm getting Celestial Bureaucracy vibes for some reason;)


Follow your plan, but rather than have them make 2 characters, have them make their own characters and give them pregen toons.

The PC enter the tavern and get told to put their stuff in the common room. As they do, hand them the Pregen characters.

Then transistion to earlier in the day when the pregens were just out side of the city killing some gobin bandits. Then using an NPC in the group lead them by the nose to the tavern and describe the PCs entering and going to the back room.

Enter the monster who slaughters everyone except the staff and a barmaid who barricades the PC's in the back by putting a bar across the door. After the slaughter, the monster can wander up to the door and peer through the crack saying "See you around, I've my eye on you" before wandering out whistling a jaunty toon.

Solves most of your problems, and lets you introduce the barmaid as plot hook later (i.e. "You owe me!") and vengeful ghosts for paladin angst (either in dreams or via undead visitation). (eg. "You stood by and did nothing!" followed by "Die" or "avenge me" )


Carbon D. Metric wrote:


One way to help with this is to have the party catch a glace of one of these things in action being wounded or even forced to flee when it gets itself cornered or put into a bad situation of its own fault.

Like he said if the see it being wounded they will know that they aren't necessarily immortal.

This may also be a good way to "gimp" the critter for the low level party- have it whack a big buddy of theirs (patron cleric, war master, Wizarding Prof), but take a LOT of damage doing it. They KNOW their buddy was wrongly accused, so they decide to go after the critter, which, conveniently, is already at only 25% strength. Then the hunt begins...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Give the monster a minor "vampiric touch" like ability that does +1d6 non-lethal damage. This will heal the NPC vs the PCs and knock them out without killing them. Then the PCs can wake up in an inn full of carnage, realize they're screwed, but not dead.

Maybe give the NPC a weakness that one PC can exploit, like Mum-ra and mirrors from Thundercats....that way, the PCs can drive it off on a situational basis.

Shadow Lodge

Immortality doesn't mean he can't die, it just means he can live forever if he isn't killed. Living for a long time just makes people think you can't be killed.

Just a thought.

EDIT: realized this has already been said. Sort of.


If you want them to be on the run for killing one of these things here's what I would suggest.

After they've settled in at the bar have the door fly open and a fairly powerful NPC stumble in being followed by the immortal. Show that the NPC is of a decent level (one or two levels higher than when you intend the PC's to take one on their own) by having him use some ability only gained at a certain level. While the NPC and the Immortal fight have the NPC call for aid from the PC's. Have their attacks do little, like you said maybe a low DR or Fast healing. Let them nickel and dime him while the tough NPC does the real fight. Don't make it impossible for them to hit or hurt it or else they will just stop attacking, but do little enough that he doesn't even feel threatened by them. Show him getting worn down however, and just as he finishes off the NPC, let the very next PC's attack kill him. That way they had a hand in it, the NPC is dead and therefore can't pay for the crime, the last blow was dealt by a PC, and they see that without the NPC's help they couldn't have done it alone. Then have one of the commoners yell out, while pointing to the PC whose attack dropped it "You killed a Deputy, they will come for you, RUN!". The actual HP in combat don't matter, he lives until you decide that fear has been sown, then by pure luck (wink, wink) the PC's attack did just enough damage. If you make the NPC a pally you can explain away all his attacks against it were buffed by his powers vs. evil, so again the numbers in the fight are irrelevant.

No need for 2 party's worth of PC's, or for the players to have someone die in the first session. No angry players, but yet still a sense of fear.


Petrus222 and SmiloDan give good advice. Players generally do not like losing control of their character. Having their options narrowed down to "you die, no save" is (in my experince as player)no fun.
Either let i happen to throwaway mooks(that could be related to the pc's) or let it be reversable:)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Give the parameters of what you want to accomplish, here is what I suggest:

Have the party in the tavern notice fellow adventurers (from their equipment and overhearing their conversation). Allow some interaction if you wish.

Enter the immortal. Immortal gives his badass speech and orders the doors secured. Immortal reaves into the nearest mooks, cutting them down.

NPC adventurer party attacks the immortal. By the NPC actions and cast spells, you can make the NPC party whatever level to your players. So NPC adventurer might cast lighting bolt (implied minimal 5th level) or Acid Arrow or whatever, which tells your players the NPC adventurers are clearly more than 1st level.

Immortal takes on NPC party and kills them. Get into the cinematics to describe the battle a bit and which will help establish the immortal as totally badass. The party can participate in the battle for a few rounds but the immortal targets NPC adventurers during those rounds.

Now establish the 'opportunitist' exit for the party. For example, have the NPC barbarian rage and charge the immortal, only for the immortal to backhand the barbarian npc adventurer across the room and cause a breach by shattering a door or taking out window when the barbarian slams into it and falls seemly lifeless. Or as spell from the NPC spell casters alter the enviroment by catching the room on fire, or blowing out a section of wall or a door, etc. What is key here is that the tertiary damage from the battle creates an escape route for the party.

Slaughter the NPC adventurers in such a way that the players get it absolutely LOUD and CLEAR that this guy is too much for them to handle and that escape is their only hope to survive the encounter. If they are not getting the message, have the last standing NPC adventurer call out something like 'Fly, you fools, Fly!!' before being run through or having his throat crushed as the immortal hoists him in the air by his neck (remember, the visuals is key to establish the party is OVER THEIR HEAD). Remember that you have 'created' an exit for the party to use to escape as part of the battle with the NPC adventurers and the immortal.

If done this way, you don't need to have the players have two characters with one fated to die. The NPC adventurers take on that role - to establish the badassery of the immortal and to setup the 'shock' factor you are going for.


Aardvark Barbarian wrote:

If you want them to be on the run for killing one of these things here's what I would suggest.

After they've settled in at the bar have the door fly open and a fairly powerful NPC stumble in being followed by the immortal. Show that the NPC is of a decent level (one or two levels higher than when you intend the PC's to take one on their own) by having him use some ability only gained at a certain level. While the NPC and the Immortal fight have the NPC call for aid from the PC's. Have their attacks do little, like you said maybe a low DR or Fast healing. Let them nickel and dime him while the tough NPC does the real fight. Don't make it impossible for them to hit or hurt it or else they will just stop attacking, but do little enough that he doesn't even feel threatened by them. Show him getting worn down however, and just as he finishes off the NPC, let the very next PC's attack kill him. That way they had a hand in it, the NPC is dead and therefore can't pay for the crime, the last blow was dealt by a PC, and they see that without the NPC's help they couldn't have done it alone. Then have one of the commoners yell out, while pointing to the PC whose attack dropped it "You killed a Deputy, they will come for you, RUN!". The actual HP in combat don't matter, he lives until you decide that fear has been sown, then by pure luck (wink, wink) the PC's attack did just enough damage. If you make the NPC a pally you can explain away all his attacks against it were buffed by his powers vs. evil, so again the numbers in the fight are irrelevant.

No need for 2 party's worth of PC's, or for the players to have someone die in the first session. No angry players, but yet still a sense of fear.

This I think can accomplish everything I need and have the PCs involved with the actual killing. I will include the two NPCs I'll use (instead of 1)as part of the Players Companion I am making for said campaign. That way they will know generally how tough the NPCs are and what it takes to take down a Deputy. This ties alot of loose ends of my original opening scene together and forces a party of strangers together without all the hookieness of usual starting parties. All this without possibly alienating my players in the first hour of gameplay.

Thank you all for your help. I appreciate the advice given and the help working my way through this bad idea and finding a solution.


One important thing before you set to it. Make damn sure the there is a good and obvious reason that the beasts will kill the NPCs first. You don't want the players getting the idea that you are deliberately avoiding killing them, that will disrupt the grittiness of the campaing.

I'd actually recommend that you be ready and willing to grease one of the PCs if they give the creature a good enough reason to kill them first. More importantly since it is an "on the run" fugitive type game you should give a lot of thought now to how new PCs will be brought in if one of them bites the big one. Especially since raise deads are going to be a lot harder to come by than in some campaigns.


The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:

One important thing before you set to it. Make damn sure the there is a good and obvious reason that the beasts will kill the NPCs first. You don't want the players getting the idea that you are deliberately avoiding killing them, that will disrupt the grittiness of the campaing.

I'd actually recommend that you be ready and willing to grease one of the PCs if they give the creature a good enough reason to kill them first. More importantly since it is an "on the run" fugitive type game you should give a lot of thought now to how new PCs will be brought in if one of them bites the big one. Especially since raise deads are going to be a lot harder to come by than in some campaigns.

I think that the damage output of the npcs will be enough to make it clear why they are being targeted first.

Admitedly I had not thought about how to introduce new characters to the game, which is something that is needed since raise dead isn't just hard to come by it doesn't exsist from NPCs. All they have to come back from the dead is reincarnate from Druids.


It doesn't exactly feel very compelling or grand to have this encounter with no build up be the introduction to the game. Especially since it happens in a bar, of all places.

Stream of consciousness thoughts about plot:

I would... introduce the PCs to the world. Basically, think up a good concept for a session for each concept you're trying to introduce into the game. The LE society, the immortals, the gritty nature of the story, etcetera should be in the plot light before the climax of the first arc of the story. There needs to be a build up.

I would introduce this would-be immortal as a magistrate in the city or something. He's in charge of... a ghetto. The PCs live in the ghetto. They're poor and downtrodden. The would-be immortal is in the business of lording over them. As the game goes on, the PCs fight against this guy's minions while trying to save the people in their ghetto. And while you do this, you can show how much of a badass the immortal is by showing them his aftermath, having more powerful NPCs job to him by dying easily and such and such.

Around... level 4? The PCs get contacted by people who want to bring this guy down. A plan gets put in motion. The PCs attack his compound with help from their friends. They end up beating his lieutenant and taking control of the compound, but what they don't realize is that the entire time they've been doing this, the magistrate has been purging the ghetto. So now the PCs' everythings are all blown to pieces. Everyone's dead. And the guy like rocks into the room and fights the PCs. It should probably be raining. Something should be on fire.

You can then show the PCs a real immortal-- he's like CR 5 or 6 so he's honestly on par for greatness and he's probably got backup. The NPCs with the PCs can be cannon fodder, essentially. It can actually be a hard-won fight with strategy, tactics, etc. and taking the foreground is that the PCs have pretty much tried so hard and gone so far and in the end it didn't even matter and they're getting revenge on this guy. So when they kill him, they've got nowhere to go, so they're forced to be on the run.

I feel like when the PCs kill powerful creatures, they should know they barely survived and that everything they did to destroy it was their choice and that only their power brought them through it. Having it happen as plot exposition feels kind of cheap-- if I was a player in this game, my first thought would be that killing this guy would be the plot hook and that our victory is kind of pre-determined, and that'd just immediately lose any feeling of risk for me. I would probably also question why a goggle of completely untrained nobodies who don't even know eachother could take out something that is considered legendary. And on top of that, there's no real emotional involvement at that point other than doting on character generation, so even if the monster dies it's just like "Yep. ... We got 'em" or "Oh no, tavern patron #2 died... oh no." It's a little... mechanical? Idk.

A little more build up. It's like... "Okay, so, you're in a bar... and Darth Vader walks in." or "Okay, so you're in a bar... and Sauron walks in."


Petrus222 wrote:


Enter the monster who slaughters everyone except the staff and a barmaid who barricades the PC's in the back by putting a bar across the door.

On a side note this reminds of that movie, Feast.


Rather than have each player make 2 characters, why not instead have the PCs chatting at a table in the bar with 4/5 NPCs. Spend time introducing the NPCs, fleshing them out, lure the PCs into a false sense of security: 'Oh, these are the core NPCs for the campaign', and then have them all killed in brutal ways.


Phi'Shaw DM wrote:
The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:

One important thing before you set to it. Make damn sure the there is a good and obvious reason that the beasts will kill the NPCs first. You don't want the players getting the idea that you are deliberately avoiding killing them, that will disrupt the grittiness of the campaing.

I'd actually recommend that you be ready and willing to grease one of the PCs if they give the creature a good enough reason to kill them first. More importantly since it is an "on the run" fugitive type game you should give a lot of thought now to how new PCs will be brought in if one of them bites the big one. Especially since raise deads are going to be a lot harder to come by than in some campaigns.

I think that the damage output of the npcs will be enough to make it clear why they are being targeted first.

Admitedly I had not thought about how to introduce new characters to the game, which is something that is needed since raise dead isn't just hard to come by it doesn't exsist from NPCs. All they have to come back from the dead is reincarnate from Druids.

Two quick thoughts for incoming characters:

1) Talk with the player and work out what he is on the run from.

2) This is harder but more interesting. Set up the introduction of the character so that to the authorities it looks like he is an accomplice of the characters. This is fun because he is falsely accused and may be as mad at his fellow characters as at the authorities. Even better he still has to work with the people who got him trouble if he is supposed to survive.


I would respecfully suggest something slightly different, and I think it would help to give each PC some individual motivation.

Step 1, Separeate the players, speak with everyone a bt about their backstory and introduce them ingame to an NPC the NPC can be just about everyone from trustet mentor, hated rival, his parents .....

Repeat step 1 for every player.

Step 2: Give each of your players a character sheet for the NPC they have just met, give them all the situation, where they are, why they are sititing toghter and maybe tell everyone a bit about who the other NPCs are.
Once they are a bit familiar with their temporary chars, and maybe got the chance to RP a little, introduce your BBEG and let his slaughter/kill/crush/mutilate.... the NPCs. Don´t spare graphic details, if you think if helps your players to get emotionally attacked to the demise of these NPCs.

Step 3:Take back the NPC sheet and tell every PC (you may want to separet them again for a short time, depending on the connection to the NPCs) how their characters hear about the demise of the NPCs.

This accomplishes the following:

-the PCs are motivated
-they gain ingame knowledge about what happended, without, and this point is critical, losing a character to a deus ex machina.

I hope that helped, its can get tough behind the DM screen^^


For what it's worth I think you have a great idea for a start of a campaign, it's just the execution that needed work.


OK, how about this?

The Deputy *just* got his power, correct? When he enters the bar, hove some flunky/toady/servitor enter with him. He makes his proclamation, and the PCs overhear the flunky saying "My Lord, it is too early, the process has not finished taking hold...", flunky is then backhanded into unconsciousness.

Got to town, have the fight (1 character each), with the party being fairly ineffective. Then, as things are looking bleak, his 'Aura of Might' fades, or his skin fades from golden to the normal human hue, whatever. Essentially, he decided to flex his muscles before everything was complete, and his immortal powers noticeably crap out on him at a key point in the battle.

Thwack, party kills him. Without his special Aura (or whatever), not only is he not tough, he's basically an inbred hemophiliac who can be downed in one good stroke.

Results:
-1st level party takes him out by pure luck, as required.
-The party *knows* that they haven't a chance against an established Deputy
-It reaffirms to the party that these are jackasses with powers, venal and evil.
-Everyone else in the bar is likely to ignore the 'loss of aura' bit, or presume that the PCs *caused* the Deputy to become mortal again, so all of the 'ooh-ahh' factor holds for the Common folk (and if the Deputies believe the story, they are going to want the party Dead. Dead. Dead.
-The Deputies, concerned about their immortality, will tend to act through minions until they have no choice, so the gritty game can keep the indestructible juggernauts a step removed, where they can remain mysterious and scary.

(...were I a member of the party in this case, I would be inclined to see if to investigate the process, seeking either a way to get it applied to myself, or stop it from working, or destroy the source so not more deputies can be made, at least for a while)


Ramarren wrote:

OK, how about this?

The Deputy *just* got his power, correct? When he enters the bar, hove some flunky/toady/servitor enter with him. He makes his proclamation, and the PCs overhear the flunky saying "My Lord, it is too early, the process has not finished taking hold...", flunky is then backhanded into unconsciousness.

Got to town, have the fight (1 character each), with the party being fairly ineffective. Then, as things are looking bleak, his 'Aura of Might' fades, or his skin fades from golden to the normal human hue, whatever. Essentially, he decided to flex his muscles before everything was complete, and his immortal powers noticeably crap out on him at a key point in the battle.

Thwack, party kills him. Without his special Aura (or whatever), not only is he not tough, he's basically an inbred hemophiliac who can be downed in one good stroke.

Results:
-1st level party takes him out by pure luck, as required.
-The party *knows* that they haven't a chance against an established Deputy
-It reaffirms to the party that these are jackasses with powers, venal and evil.
-Everyone else in the bar is likely to ignore the 'loss of aura' bit, or presume that the PCs *caused* the Deputy to become mortal again, so all of the 'ooh-ahh' factor holds for the Common folk (and if the Deputies believe the story, they are going to want the party Dead. Dead. Dead.
-The Deputies, concerned about their immortality, will tend to act through minions until they have no choice, so the gritty game can keep the indestructible juggernauts a step removed, where they can remain mysterious and scary.

(...were I a member of the party in this case, I would be inclined to see if to investigate the process, seeking either a way to get it applied to myself, or stop it from working, or destroy the source so not more deputies can be made, at least for a while)

This sounds like an interesting alternative. Requires some reworking on my part but it does allow the PCs the ability to kill the Deputy without outside help. I was going to have the Deputy "get serious" when he realized he was in trouble, if I make it a visual obvious thing why he's getting serious it may make the effect better. I'll have to think on this awhile.


The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:
For what it's worth I think you have a great idea for a start of a campaign, it's just the execution that needed work.

Thank's you. I can always come up with a good story and plot, I just have always have trouble filling in the game part of it.


It sounds like you are trying to initiate a sort of horror movie intro to your game. I can imagine this as the beginning of a Ravenloft game. Some suggestions ...

- Start the players as commoners. Wizards are scribes, clerics are laypersons involved in their church. None of them have class powers. Maybe the casters have cantrips/orisons but probably not as you want them to start off "not special". Certainly not special enough to fight off an immortal. Only after this encounter and their escape from the town do they upgrade to 1st level characters. This encourages a feeling of being forced into a life of adventuring. You might also encourage them to have fleshed out backgrounds as per Banpai's suggestion so that they are really leaving their lives behind.

- Tease out the immortal encounter with vivid descriptions of horrible deaths. Perhaps this immortal is actually CE rather than LE and the power has gone to his head. He begins to push the local bar patrons around, this escalate into violence and he brutally murders a patron. Now he has a bar full of witnesses ... Perhaps a fire gets started in the scuffle, but he bars the door. Little does he know that fire bypasses his DR and fast healing. Detailed descriptions of death and pain help rack up the tension. They also string the encounter out a little longer.

- Ask one of your players to play a trick with you. Have that player create the 2 characters, and play the "false" one at the start. As you build the tension, have your player play the false PC as brave and heroic, only to have him be brutally murdered in from of the others. Your player can then take up his real PC, and continue. It really only takes one player death to send home the message that "You are DOOMED!".

- Fake your dice rolls from behind the screen. don't leave this to luck. Eek out as much tension as you can. Have a PC get "almost killed" as they try to defeat the monster.

- The secret to the monsters demise could be as simple as a burning piece of wood falling on him and revealing that he is wounded by fire. Or water stops his healing, when someone throws a jug at him. make sure to time this for when the tension is at a fevers pitch. Probably after he has broken through the boor to the backroom and is about to kill the barmaid (perhaps your player's real PC)

hope those help. Good luck!


One of the ways to do this is to change the setting. While anyone might be at a tavern, that's not true in a chapel or wizard's guild.

The immortal can have a priority, like wiping out the priests, and the PCs, if smart, can hide and be ignored.

A good challenge for low-level PCs is to get out of such a place. It's not ridiculous to have environmental effects like darkness, freezing cold, or balance checks to deal with the tremors. Acrobatics to scamper over what's left of the furniture?

Have the immortal followed around by his minions, followers, butler, whatever. You have an opportunity to establish a lower-level enemy as a servant of the immortal.

Ex) This immortal is so evil, that whoever he kills returns as a skeleton.

Fighting skeletons while scrambling over ruins and looking for an exit will be fun, and appropriate for low-level PCs. Meanwhile, you can leave the immortal and the NPCs in the initiative order, and just narrate what they are up to.


Actually it's a fugitive/revolution campaign with a bit of western thrown in. It's a low magic, somewhat steam punk campaign setting where guns are common amongst the small races because they equalize damage. There are no clerics at all and no primary casting classes at 1st level, and primary casting classes cannot equal greater than 1/2 character levels. Bards are the most powerful magic users in this world. I give some favored multiclass benefits for choosing the martial/casting class pairs that are established. Wizards can cast in all armor and with shields, and fighter bonus feats and wizard bonus feats are interchangeable. Sorcerers can cast while raging and in up to medium armor, and their save dcs are increased by 2 while raging. I haven't quite nailed down the ranger druid benefits yet since those classes already mesh so well. Also characters of any class pair get to apply favored class benefits for both classes. This helps the fact that all pcs will have at least d8 HP starting out and some armor.


The campaign concept is pretty interesting. Ever consider the idea of giving the PC's an incredibly realistic 'prophetic dream' wherein they fight one of these immortals---and of course surely die, but roll it out, no punches pulled, and don't let them know it's actually a dream until at least a few of them are dead, although you can give a few dreamlike 'tells' and surrealistic overtones for hints for your more perceptive players. This could be a message from an unknown ally of the players, who is sending a message of the archetype---if you go to 'fill in the blank tavern here'...you will die. Needless to say, on the next day said immortal is in fact waiting for them at the only tavern in the little hamlet they're passing through. Hopefully their dream experience will make them approach the tavern forewarned (i.e., not at all), and bug out before the immortal realizes his dance partners aren't there to tango.


EWHM wrote:
The campaign concept is pretty interesting. Ever consider the idea of giving the PC's an incredibly realistic 'prophetic dream' wherein they fight one of these immortals---and of course surely die, but roll it out, no punches pulled, and don't let them know it's actually a dream until at least a few of them are dead, although you can give a few dreamlike 'tells' and surrealistic overtones for hints for your more perceptive players. This could be a message from an unknown ally of the players, who is sending a message of the archetype---if you go to 'fill in the blank tavern here'...you will die. Needless to say, on the next day said immortal is in fact waiting for them at the only tavern in the little hamlet they're passing through. Hopefully their dream experience will make them approach the tavern forewarned (i.e., not at all), and bug out before the immortal realizes his dance partners aren't there to tango.

Actually our last DM just did almost exactly this in the last session he ran before having to quit so I can't really do it. Thanks for the idea though.


Hm, from a player standpoint, it MAY actually be a lot more scary if they don't kill one early.

As in, they get into conflict with the "law", but get to escape.

Point being, if they kill one early(even through a lucky shot) they _KNOW_ the things are vulnerable, not immortal.
Now, i don't know about your players, but mine would get a pit spell, acid flasks, alchemists fire and ranged weaponry and not be overly afraid of them.
As in: "We took one down by luck when we weren't prepared, now we don't need luck since we ARE prepared".
Especially the survivability increases vastly in the first 2-3 levels.

Really, i'd suggest they HAVE to flee from their first encounter, and are then hounded by regular soldiers with a skirmish or two, maybe surprised by a night assault in their camp, or seeing an immortal of in the distance.

Really, make them BELIEVE that those things are immortal. A lot more scary.

Then when they met the old elf that once killed one of those, have him explain his bit, before the pursuers eventually catch up(and they are backed into a cave in which the elf lives as hermit). Have that elf lead the assault and have them take down the immortal there. Regular soldiers are witnesses to the act, so they ARE fugitives, but the general population may or may not believe them.

Possibly have them CLEARLY outnumbered, with the immortal wanting to have some "fun" by crushing them personally. After they kill it, the remaining soldiers take them into custody, and they are off to prison.

En-route that convoy can be attacked and they can be saved by a pre-existing "resistance" if you want to get them into contact with one.

Otherwise, make the soldiers at the cave be fewer and flee when their immortal leader goes down.

Naturally, during the cave battle, that elf will have to die. Either directly or, if you don't want to fudge rolls, from the strong con-poison the first hit delivered.(Which additionally makes the players careful. If those guys have STRONG(and i mean strong) poisons with deadly effect(CON), they will remain a factor long after the party reached an equal level, e.g. by opening a combat with a few poisoned crossbow-bolts before entering melee. This will also help speed things up and make them feel scared when your super-chars have about 150 HP from their con alone...)
Naturally, that poison coating has to dissipate after a certain time so the players can either use it soon, or lose it.

my 2c


Killing one early provides hope, which is counter to grit. Sorry you said the characters should be scared shitless. Have the immortals raze the village they grew up in,salt the earth, and begin hunting down any and all immediate relatives to be sacrificed body and soul to their dark gods. If they don't want to wind up on a sacrificial slab, they'll know what they have to do. I would spend the first couple of sessions making sure they were invested in the village and their family members, then while they are gone wipe it off the face of the earth.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unwinnable situations suck to be in as a player, and unwinnable situations that you can't flee from! The WORST!

There are lots of good ways for the PCs to realise that they are out of their league but still be heroic.

Why not have the barkeep open up a secret passage into the sewers, and the PCs have to shepherd the NPCs through a dangerous and deadly sewer to escape the invincible madman?

As it is, players put some effort and time into crafting their characters. Killing a PC to prove how badass your NPC is? It will make that NPC hated, but it will make you even more hated than he is.

Ask yourself this question:

"What are the PCs going to do that could change or effect things?"

If the answer is: "Nothing"

Then you haven't crafted an encounter, you've crafted a short story, and your poor players have to listen or leave.

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