|
So I would like to try out a Mystic Theurge character. My concept revolves around a mage that specializes in lightning and has a special bond with spirits of the air. My concept fits very will with mixing the Sorcerer (Air Elemental Bloodline) and Druid classes. My question is really two-fold:
1) Is this worth it? Is Mystic Theurge a good class?
2) What's the best way of pulling this off?
It seems very much like you'd be losing alot of your spell progression while you multi into your divine spellcasting class. Currently, my plan is to hit 5th level Sorcerer, so that I hit Scorching Ray - one of my favorite spells in PF - for free with the electrical element, then 4th or 5th level Druid, then start dipping into Mystic Theurge.
I'm not looking to power game or maximize the build, I'm a little bit of a concept junkie and this just fits. I just would like to not run into a situation where I'm not effective for the party, and nerfing myself.
Any thoughts at all are appreciated ^_^ d
Have a day
|
The problem is that mixing a Sorc and a Druid will make your caster level lag behind so badly that it makes it just not worth it.
Mystic Theurge is somewhat acceptable if you go the Wiz+Clr/Drd route. And even then there will be some time where you will suffer.
Perhaps you could check out the Witch class, I don't have the spell list handy, but maybe it will fit your concept ?
Well, the witch does make a good mystic theurge, spell list-wise. The problem exists that the Hexes are extremely Witch concept focused, and so making a "storm caster" might be a bit wonky.
There are some flight and weather related hexes though, so if you are willing to expand some of your utility options, it might be a good option.
I do have to agree that I've not experienced a "fun" MT build, simply due to the lag causing your spell options to keep you really behind. Unless you forgo most DC and direct attack options (keep to buffing, summoning, and utility), you'll find the experience much like the 3.5 Monk and his flurry of misses: lots of spells that people make their saves constantly against.
I wish you luck!
Mystic theurges gain versatility but pays in power. You'll have a really noticeable drop in power. The build seems to be most useful in a small group or a large group, since those need/can afford a character with split focuses.
I'd stay away from spontaneous casters, since you need to be level 4 in them to become a mystic theurge. This means at level 8, when you gain your first level in Mystic Theurge, you'll still cast 2nd level spells at the strongest (while straight casters cast 4th level spells). If you go with non-spontaneous casters, you'll have 3rd level spells in both classes by level 8.
For your theme, I'd make a wizard/druid. Generally, the best combination is wizard/cleric since those have the largest focus on spells and least focus on class abilities (and MT only advances spells) but I can't really see your theme work with a cleric.
I'd start of with wizard, since it's easier for a party to be without a cleric than an arcanist (usually, since it of course depends on the party setup). Be a wizard until level 3, and then go druid to level 6. Then Mystic Theurge. You have to have a primary caster class, and a secondary - I'd make the wizard primary. Max out his Int and only go for just enough wis to be able to cast all your druid spells.
Be sure to get wands as soon as you reach level 4 - you'll have most spells on one of your spell list, so you can use nearly all wands in the game. If you have a more advanced arcanist or priest in your party, ask him to make you a few wands and scrolls so you can be useful. Your weakest levels will be 5-7; on 8 you'll start to catch up again.
Also, there's a trait that gives you a bonus to caster level in a class (up to your HD). The bonus is +1 or +2, don't remember which, but you really need to get it.
As for spells in the weak levels, you really need to focus on spells that require little in the way of saving throws or caster level. Buffs and battlefield control such as grease are great, debuffs not as much.
EDIT: You have to know that you'll be a support character in combat, much like a bard, that has a bag of tricks to help the party though you won't be able to beat much yourself.
Ironically your character concept goes extremely well with Oracle with Wind Mysteries.
Anyway for what you're doing, a good look at the APG would be good for you. You can choose to be an Wizard with the Air focus and then use Druid with the Air domain.
In my honest opinion though, some of the bonuses you get for sticking with one class are super amazing, and make Prestige classes not as amazing as they were in 3.5. Though it really depends on what you want to do with your character.
I've never used Mystic Theurge, but it always struck me as a class for those who want to switch between cleric and mage. The combined spells seem useful for someone who wants to be able to cast healing and bluffs or damage and curses simultaneously.
Unfortunately, no. It's absolutely not worth it. As much as they've done to make regular classes interesting, the good folks at paizo screwed the pooch a little on PRCs (the strong got better, the weak got...nothing worthwhile). One of the worst is the mystic theurge, who gets one good 1/day capstone at level ten, and then a class ability I can't imagine anyone wanting to use.
If your group allows WOTC material, the thing you want to be aiming for is converting the arcane hierophant PRC from races of the wild (my favorite char was one of these). Unless the air domain is really core to your druid concept, I'd consider getting some kind of flying animal companion for companion familiar. The wildshape stuff you get will let you go air elemental at some point, which also jives with your theme, and requires level 7 to get into the class anyway.
If your group is playing pathfinder only, then Ion is correct, go for Air Oracle. Not only could you play up the "imbued by air spirits' thing, but oracles are very neat. On the downside, no scorching ray and their capstone is a little turdy compared to the other elemental oracles.
Power wise, meh. Flavour wise it can be great.
If you have a copy of Races of the Wild, the Arcane Hierophant is a mystic theurge specifically designed for a Druid/Wizard or Druid/Sorcerer cross, it works better for that concept.
I would suggest taking the Magical Knack trait twice to keep your caster level up. Pick spells carefully, as you WILL need ones that are useful against more powerful foes, because your spell levels will lag behind.
I'm doing a Druid/Wizard/Arcane Hierophant in a Pathfinder game, and the character is working out just dandy - what you lack in power you make up in flexibility.
No discussion of the Mystic Theurge would be complete without this:
It is NOT a recommendation. It is a cautionary tale.
Gnome Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge.
Worst. Spellcaster. Ever.
You will also want to talk to your GM about the Practiced Caster and Boon Companion feats if you're doing Mystic Theurge; Boon Companion adds to your Druid level for determining the abilities of your Animal Companion, but is capped at your character level. Practiced Caster does the same for your caster level.
|
|
Thanks for all the advice.
It definitely sounds like Mystic Theurge is blah, which is a bummer cause in concept it seems pretty tight. I'll have to do some rethinking. The game's already started up to level 2 and I'm already an Aasimar Sorc (elemental). I'll try to get something going on that front.
Thanks guys
Mystic theurge can work and work well, but it takes a bit of work to do it right.
Mystic theurge can work and work well, but it takes a bit of work to do it right.
Meh. It's ok. I was just very dissapointed to see the new version . It didn't address any of the problems associated with playing a dual caster and it added a class ability that, frankly, sucks, unless there's some great synergy I'm missing. The capstone's nice, but getting to do something cool once a day doesn't do much to help players out.
Mystic theurge can work and work well, but it takes a bit of work to do it right.Meh. It's ok. I was just very dissapointed to see the new version . It didn't address any of the problems associated with playing a dual caster and it added a class ability that, frankly, sucks, unless there's some great synergy I'm missing. The capstone's nice, but getting to do something cool once a day doesn't do much to help players out.
The new ability to use slots freely between the two classes is actually very good when dealing with a spontaneous class. Every memorized spell on the other side of the fence becomes available to the spontaneous casting side. That means that a clr/sor can memorize whatever spells he wants and NEVER has to double up spells. He can spread his spells out to cover whatever situations he needs, and can call upon the sorceror's increased number of spells per day to really put those spells to use. It gives wonderful versatility, so long as you memorize the right spells.
The new ability to use slots freely between the two classes is actually very good when dealing with a spontaneous class. Every memorized spell on the other side of the fence becomes available to the spontaneous casting side. That means that a clr/sor can memorize whatever spells he wants and NEVER has to double up spells. He can spread his spells out to cover whatever situations he needs, and can call upon the sorceror's increased number of spells per day to really put those spells to use. It gives wonderful versatility, so long as you memorize the right spells.Mystic theurge can work and work well, but it takes a bit of work to do it right.Meh. It's ok. I was just very dissapointed to see the new version . It didn't address any of the problems associated with playing a dual caster and it added a class ability that, frankly, sucks, unless there's some great synergy I'm missing. The capstone's nice, but getting to do something cool once a day doesn't do much to help players out.
See, I could see that (and, I'll say right here I've never played this MT because I don't hate myself) If sorcerers weren't already forced to take the class a level later due to spell progression and it didn't take up a spell slot 1 level higher. A level 8 cleric3/sorc4/MT 1 is only going to be able to crank out 1st level cleric spells this way at the cost of their 2nd level sorc slots. At level 17, when wizards are getting 9th level spells, this character will be up to level 7 sorc spells and level 7 cleric spells. They can use their highest sorc slots to use 6th level cleric spells. I mean, yes, that lets you use a heal spontaneously, but, full clerics can just mass heal by then, so it's kinda crappy.
For prepared casters, the ability is just idiotic. So, basically, the ability only benefits people who will make really crappy mystic theurges in the first place...
Edit: My bad, they can't even do that. The ability only goes up to 5th level...
Mystic Theurges are terrible characters. There, I said it.
That being said, you might be able to have some fun if you DM decides to softball all your encounters, or if you are the only caster in the party. Or if in two years you reach 20th level.
Otherwise, in normal encounters straight out of published adventures you will be a contributing factor to your party's TPK.
Basically, I'm saying have a talk with your DM first. Then you'll know if the class choice is a bad one.
Concept-wise, you can do the concept with a number of established spellcasting classes that aren't terrible at casting spells. A Witch might be a good choice.
|
If your party already has primary divine and arcane casters, a Mystic Theurge can be a great "third caster". They won't be able to match the raw power of the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch or Cleric/Druid/Oracle, but they should be at least as useful as a Bard/Inquisitor/Summoner. Probably more, because if you focus on utility and support spells, you can cast and cast and cast and CAST. Having two primary spellcasting classes worth of spellcasting to draw on means you have a LOT of magic up your proverbial sleeves every day.
If your party already has primary divine and arcane casters, a Mystic Theurge can be a great "third caster". They won't be able to match the raw power of the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch or Cleric/Druid/Oracle, but they should be at least as useful as a Bard/Inquisitor/Summoner. Probably more, because if you focus on utility and support spells, you can cast and cast and cast and CAST. Having two primary spellcasting classes worth of spellcasting to draw on means you have a LOT of magic up your proverbial sleeves every day.
A primary caster has more spells than a Mystic Theurge until about 9th level, and most of their spells are better. At the minimum, it means they can do more per spell than a MT (like when a MT gets Overland Flight and enough slots to cast it on the whole party, a primary caster can use a single spell slot to cast Mass Overland Flight).
Let's not even get into the fact that with lower save DCs from using lower level spells AND the fact that you have two casting stats, you won't be affecting enemies.
So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
Would he be better off as a Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge? In addition to sucking as a support caster, he'll also be able to wear light armor and suck in combat...
Would he be better off as a Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge? In addition to sucking as a support caster, he'll also be able to wear light armor and suck in combat...So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
I laughed when I read this. Thanks.
Well, I've played MTs and similar and I have to say that while they lacked raw hitting power, they made up for it (especially in Pathfinder) with versatility and the breadth of what they could do.
Sometimes it's not just about who can chant the loudest incantation you know ....
I laughed when I read this. Thanks.Would he be better off as a Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge? In addition to sucking as a support caster, he'll also be able to wear light armor and suck in combat...So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
Is this K from the "Frank and K" crew?
Assuming that you are playing in a home game where you have some creative freedom, I would just file the serial numbers off of the witch. Use the mechanics and re-skin the concept.
I'm doing that right now with my "cleric" of Pharasma. As an example, I re-flavored my Cackle ability to manipulating fate and auras to screw with my opponent.
In your case, maybe the owl familiar could be re-flavored to an air elemental and swirling winds could be used to distract your enemies (representing misfortune). I've had some fun getting creative and messing around with that stuff. Give it a shot.
All of that said, playing a MT is painful. K's explanation above pretty much echos my experiences.
I've seen a number of mystic theurges in the time I've been playing. They can be very good characters....eventually.
The first piece of advise I'll give is to get Mystic Theurge at the mimum level possible. You need to start working on both classes ASAP. 5th sorcerer is too long to wait unless they have change the requirements for PF.
Second is that as has been mentioned there is a power hit. You won't get the higher level spells until a good bit later. Wands and Staves can help with that. Remember it just has to be on the list of spells available to your class, not on the list of what you know. That means that if you go Sorcerer/Druid you can use all Druid and Sorcerer/Wizard spells from wands and staffs.
Third is to ask you GM if he will update a 3.5 feat. Practiced Spellcaster was essential in 3.5 for a good Mystic Theurge. It bumps up your caster level by 4 to a max of your total level. This meant that while you spell levels lagged behind a 2 feat investment kept your caster level up to date.
Mystic Theurge is weaker in PF than it was in 3.5. It can be a tricky class to play well, but it is NOT a bad class or a death sentence.
Third is to ask you GM if he will update a 3.5 feat. Practiced Spellcaster was essential in 3.5 for a good Mystic Theurge. It bumps up your caster level by 4 to a max of your total level. This meant that while you spell levels lagged behind a 2 feat investment kept your caster level up to date.
Alternatively, take the trait 'Magical Knack' twice, once for each class. You still lose on a level of spell-casting but it's half the cost in feats if you need to take the feat from the APG to get it.
I'm currently playing a gnome Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 1 with the intention of taking my first level of Mystic Theurge next level. As stated, the Pathfinder MT is pretty much untenable without the use some of 3.5 material. My GM has permitted me to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from Complete Arcane, page 82.) and the Alternate Source Spell Metamagic feat (from Dragon Magazine 325, page 61). They along with the Magical Knack trait make the MT viable, albeit at the cost of two feats. I'll see how it goes.
|
I'm playing in Kingmaker w/ a Clr3/Sor1, and planning on going MT. I know its never been a powerhouse class, but more about versatility. I went Clr/Sor due to the fact that clerics use Charisma in their channel skill, so I'd want to pump it anyway. Getting MT a level later than normal isn't a big deal for me.
Except that you can not take 2 traits from the same category. Still it is probalby worth taking it in one of them (if practiced spell caster feat is not allowed).Third is to ask you GM if he will update a 3.5 feat. Practiced Spellcaster was essential in 3.5 for a good Mystic Theurge. It bumps up your caster level by 4 to a max of your total level. This meant that while you spell levels lagged behind a 2 feat investment kept your caster level up to date.Alternatively, take the trait 'Magical Knack' twice, once for each class. You still lose on a level of spell-casting but it's half the cost in feats if you need to take the feat from the APG to get it.
I ran it by my DM and he was fine with it.
|
|
I ran it by my DM and he was fine with it.Except that you can not take 2 traits from the same category. Still it is probalby worth taking it in one of them (if practiced spell caster feat is not allowed).Third is to ask you GM if he will update a 3.5 feat. Practiced Spellcaster was essential in 3.5 for a good Mystic Theurge. It bumps up your caster level by 4 to a max of your total level. This meant that while you spell levels lagged behind a 2 feat investment kept your caster level up to date.Alternatively, take the trait 'Magical Knack' twice, once for each class. You still lose on a level of spell-casting but it's half the cost in feats if you need to take the feat from the APG to get it.
Fair enough- but thats a houserule not RAW then. Unless we are all debating on a baseline (the RAW) we're not getting anywhere.
Fair enough- but thats a houserule not RAW then. Unless we are all debating on a baseline (the RAW) we're not getting anywhere.
This is true, it just highlights that it's useful to ask.
Is this K from the "Frank and K" crew?I laughed when I read this. Thanks.Would he be better off as a Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge? In addition to sucking as a support caster, he'll also be able to wear light armor and suck in combat...So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
Yes. Will I be stoned in the public square now? :)
Fixing the mystic the urge isn't heard. Drop all the classes special abilities but spell casting. At first, fifth and tenth level the theurge gets +2/+2 to spell progression instead of +1/+1.
Mystic Theurge can be made playable (read: not much worse than a single class caster) if you minmax the hell out of it, have access to 3.5 feats, and start the campaign at around level 10.
So short answer, no it's not really viable in your case unless it's a monty haul campaign.
I'm playing in Kingmaker w/ a Clr3/Sor1, and planning on going MT. I know its never been a powerhouse class, but more about versatility. I went Clr/Sor due to the fact that clerics use Charisma in their channel skill, so I'd want to pump it anyway. Getting MT a level later than normal isn't a big deal for me.
Well, as long as there aren't any other full casters in the group you probly won't notice
Yes. Will I be stoned in the public square now? :)Is this K from the "Frank and K" crew?I laughed when I read this. Thanks.Would he be better off as a Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge? In addition to sucking as a support caster, he'll also be able to wear light armor and suck in combat...So if the OP wants to be good at casting spells on enemies, the MT is not the way to go. He's stuck as a poor support caster and could be replaced with an NPC and no one would notice.
I was just wondering. I never met(spoken to online) you before, and my meeting with Frank was civil so no bias here.
@ToZ --> PS: I shoot fireballs out of my eyes. I don't need no stinking stake. :)
All very interesting ... and yet somehow despite the suckage that the MT suffers from I'm running an Arcane Hierophant (very similar thing) in a Pathfinder game that is doing just great.
I think the usefulness of the MT and similar comes down to the question of what other casters are present. I'm doing a wizard/druid in a party with a full cleric and a full duskblade. I can do things that they cannot, hence I'm useful. If I was playing a cleric/wizard in a party with a full cleric and a full wizard my character would probably be badly overshadowed.
Hence to the OP, if you are doing a sorcerer/druid in a party with a wizard and a cleric, you will probably be able to contribute despite the disparity in power level.
Mystic Theurge can be made playable (read: not much worse than a single class caster) if you minmax the hell out of it, have access to 3.5 feats, and start the campaign at around level 10.
So short answer, no it's not really viable in your case unless it's a monty haul campaign.
They are viable, they just take more work and skill. It's certainly easier to do in a "monty haul" campaign as you choose to put it. it is flexibility and versitility in exchange for power. If that fits your play style and you know what you are doing it can be a worthwhile trade.
Yes. Will I be stoned in the public square now? :)
Only if you don't finish some more of your promised handbooks. :-)
I've played several Mystic Theurges from 1st till 10th+ level and I have to say, its a pretty fun class to play if you are understanding of its limitations.
First off, I've found that the best role for a theurge is support. I played a Conjurer/Cleric of Shelyn with the personal goal of being the greatest builder/architect in the world. I used support magics and the lucky touch ability from the luck domain to make my party members awesome. I may have attempted to harm a foe 3 times in the entire 6 months I played that game but the other players all felt my power in my ability to make them more awesome.
Second, Get intimately familiar with 1st and second level spells. These are your bread and butter and you can do a deceptively large amount with them. Also bear in mind that domains are largely for the spells they provide, especially the low level ones. I went with Luck for its awesomeness and the defense sub domain purely for Barkskin and I always had something useful in a domain slot.
Third, have a talk with your GM about caster level bumps and revisit the conversation a few levels in once they realize that you are not the unholy avatar of death and destruction. Magical Knack is good, and Craft Misc Magic Item allows you to craft some cannon items that raise caster level (and are twice the value for you), Practiced spellcaster is the most common port but its not anywhere as cool as Improved caster level.
Fourth, Because a familiar does not scale with your level I recommend a Bonded Object, I recommend dagger because it can be enchanted with dueling for that all important initiative bump and an adamantite dagger can be bumped up to a 50 hardness using only canon enhancements but I respect the choice of a ring that most people seem to think is awesome.
If you go druid there is something to be said for the multiple feat investment in making your pet's level scale with yours. Basically you take skill focus Knowledge Nature (Some GMs will allow this instead of Knowledge religion for a druid theurge), boon companion and Eldridch heritage (fey bloodline). Yes, its a big investment but it does give you a pet you can buff to the gills and send to destroy.
For races your choices should be in this order: Half Elf, Human, Samsaran.
Dude, this thread is almost 3 years old. I don't think they care.
Yeah I kinda replied to the wrong thread.
|
|
I've played several Mystic Theurges from 1st till 10th+ level and I have to say, its a pretty fun class to play if you are understanding of its limitations.
First off, I've found that the best role for a theurge is support. I played a Conjurer/Cleric of Shelyn with the personal goal of being the greatest builder/architect in the world. I used support magics and the lucky touch ability from the luck domain to make my party members awesome. I may have attempted to harm a foe 3 times in the entire 6 months I played that game but the other players all felt my power in my ability to make them more awesome.
Second, Get intimately familiar with 1st and second level spells. These are your bread and butter and you can do a deceptively large amount with them. Also bear in mind that domains are largely for the spells they provide, especially the low level ones. I went with Luck for its awesomeness and the defense sub domain purely for Barkskin and I always had something useful in a domain slot.
Third, have a talk with your GM about caster level bumps and revisit the conversation a few levels in once they realize that you are not the unholy avatar of death and destruction. Magical Knack is good, and Craft Misc Magic Item allows you to craft some cannon items that raise caster level (and are twice the value for you), Practiced spellcaster is the most common port but its not anywhere as cool as Improved caster level.
Fourth, Because a familiar does not scale with your level I recommend a Bonded Object, I recommend dagger because it can be enchanted with dueling for that all important initiative bump and an adamantite dagger can be bumped up to a 50 hardness using only canon enhancements but I respect the choice of a ring that most people seem to think is awesome.
If you go druid there is something to be said for the multiple feat investment in making your pet's level...
Nothing wrong with a good thread necro, especially with recent FAQs causing a lot of players to give Mystic Theurges a second glance.
rat_bastard has some very good points. My one notable argument would be against a bonded weapon (though I totally agree that bonded items are the way to go). Weapons can be disarmed, peace-bonded, or removed if you're captured. Even worse, they ensure that you can never use a metamagic rod on spells with somatic components; with a rod in one hand and a weapon in the other, you have no remaining hands with which to form somatic components. My preference is generally a ring, as it's subtle, hands-free, and greatly reduces the price of what are otherwise pretty expensive items.
blah blah blah...
With the new glamored weapon enhancement that dagger can be a bracelet, or a necklace or a gauntlet at a moments notice leaving your hand free for a rod, and the casting without a bonded object becomes an auto pass eventually.
|
|
With the new glamored weapon enhancement that dagger can be a bracelet, or a necklace or a gauntlet at a moments notice leaving your hand free for a rod, and the casting without a bonded object becomes an auto pass eventually.blah blah blah...
Unfortunately, in this case "at a moment's notice" means a standard action.
A glamered weapon can be commanded to change its shape and appearance to assume the form of another object of similar size. The weapon retains all its properties (including weight) when so disguised but does not radiate magic. Only true seeing or similar magic reveals the true nature of a glamered weapon while it is disguised. After a glamered weapon is used to attack, this special ability is suppressed for 1 minute.
Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
With the new glamored weapon enhancement that dagger can be a bracelet, or a necklace or a gauntlet at a moments notice leaving your hand free for a rod, and the casting without a bonded object becomes an auto pass eventually.blah blah blah...Unfortunately, in this case "at a moment's notice" means a standard action.
A glamered weapon can be commanded to change its shape and appearance to assume the form of another object of similar size. The weapon retains all its properties (including weight) when so disguised but does not radiate magic. Only true seeing or similar magic reveals the true nature of a glamered weapon while it is disguised. After a glamered weapon is used to attack, this special ability is suppressed for 1 minute.Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Sure, but you can still have a bracelet that gives a +4 to init and has up to 40-50 hardness. Pretty slick if you ask me.