Figuring out the "Free-Hand Fighter"


Advice


If there is something you can't do in D&D is a fighter with a one handed weapon, unless you take levels in some pseudo-musketeer PrC.

When I saw the variant class "Free Hand Fighter" in the APG (pag 105 of APG) I tough "finally", but It seems far worse than any other fighter build.
Furthermore, the "free hand" isn't really free, and if all you want is a viable fighter that can use a one-handed weapon without a shield, this variant class is more about doing special maneuvers, which brings us to the pseudo-musketeer class again. Maybe it works ok, but doesn't look like a class a player would want to test.

So, has anyone here already played/tested it? does it work ok? how would you convince a player that this variant is nice? Do I miss something (as some feat)?

Below I point out the most important features of the variant, and I compare them with the Fighter class and the Two Handed Weapon build (both save the money of the shield and can quicly have a free hand).

Any comment just saying that I should believe in Paizo as I believe in God won't be welcomed, useful answers please everything else will be of great help.

Let's go:

Quote:


His fighting school benefits only apply when he is using a one-handed weapon and carrying nothing in his other hand.

You use a one-handed weapon, with all the penalties (or lack of benefits) you get. Ok, that's what the class is about.

*Deceptive Strike: Replaces Bravery
Save bonus against fear is lost(+1 to +5), but your CMB and CMD to disarm improves (+1 to +5), you also gain bonuses to feint and hide (good for fighter/rogues). Makes Improved Disarm almost a "must have" feat, and Flail a weapon to consider.

*Elusive: Replaces Armor Training 1-4, However you have to use ligth armor to get the benefits, you get +1 to +5 Dodge AC.
(Armor training gives a max of +4 Max Dex, but Elusive has no limits).
Bad things: At low levels and med levels a heavy armor gives more AC (+9 for a full plate, +5 to +8 for a chain shirt while Elusive). You don't get much advantage of the Max Dex bonus of ligth armor being a fighter, you need Strength and Armor Training already improves that. Dodge Bonuses are lost in some situations (surprise rounds, etc..). The advantage of having better speed and skill checks is almost lost at medium and high levels, Armor Training improves that for fighters.
Good things: Excelent Touch AC and CMD (***Dodge bonuses would apply to CMD?***), you can save the 1500 gp a full plate is worth (but it isn't important past 5-6th level). Good for Fighter/Rogues. Better speed at low levels than other armored fighters. The same AC as using a full plate when hitting 18th level.
*Singleton: Replaces Weapon Training 1, basically does the same (+1 at and damage) with one handed weapons (While having the other hand free).
HOWEVER it doesn't apply to CMD when defending against disarm and sunder, so part of what you get with Deceptive Strike is lost here.
*Timely Tip: Replaces Weapon Training 2. Basically it allows me to do the following: Perform a single disarm combat maneuver using the move action, if successful the next single attack ignores the shield bonus to AC of the enemy. You get that at 9th level, better than doing a full round attack? (and giving up the +1 to att/damage/etc.. from Weapon Training 2, for something circumstancial). Again makes Improved Disarm feat and Flail an option to consider.
*Interference: Replaces Weapon Training 3. I can make a disarm or trip maneuver as a move action to make someone flat-footed (It doesn't say it adds to the effects of disarm and trip, so I suposse that's the only thing to do). It lasts until the target takes damage from something that isn't a spell or for a round (whichever comes first). It works with almost any enemy, so isn't as circumstancial as Timely Tip. However you have it at level 13, worth giving up the iterative attacks?
*You still get Weapon Training 4 (I guess It only gives you +1 at/dam, no +4) and Weapon Mastery.
*Reversal: Replaces Armor Mastery (which would give DR 5-). I like this one, as an inmediate action (1 max. per round iirc), when someone attacks (attack, not hit) you in melee you make a disarm maneuver, if successful the attack goes against other creature. You need to be in melee with two creatures to use that, which makes it a bit circumnstancial. I guess you don't disarm the enemy too, because he has to damage the other foe with that weapon.

The abilities don't look that bad, altough the AC you get at medium levels (around 10th) doesn't seem enough for any medium level fighter.

Other considerations:
It doesn't get a bonus to damage (from Strength and Weapon Damage Dice) that someone with a two handed weapon would get, neither other advantages like better damage using Power Attack and some exclusive feats for THWs. Also you don't get the AC of a shield. You don't get the advantages of a TWF fighter.
Your hand isn't really free because you can't use it while fighting (unless you want to loose your AC, attack and damage bonuses), so your hands are almost as busy as if you were using a THW.
At least you can attack while grappled, something you can't do with a THW.

Summing up
IMHO, what I get is a fighter that deals less damage and has a worse attack bonus than any other basic build (3 Armor Training upgrades lost plus bonuses of other builds). However the Disarm CMB becomes a bit better (about +1) and It gets a nice bonus to Touch AC and CMD (+1 to +5). Finally It can perform some special Maneuvers using a move action. The AC is in line of that of a fighter using a two handed weapon, but it is low at medium levels.
May be ok for some multiclassing, Rogue/fighter or someone that uses ligth armor, but TWF is a very good choice for rogues too.

Thanks in advance

Dark Archive

This is definitely one of those optional things that's weird and not even slightly optimal but just cool enough to play for giggles. I don't think you're missing anything salient; your analysis seems pretty much exactly my own. The other fighter options seem to have a lot more going for them in terms of optimization.

I will say though that the free hander has something going for it in style. I've done the free hand thing sparring with padded weapons and if you manage to make it work you seem like the king of all sh*t for a little while. But eventually someone with a shield (hands down most advantageous style in real life IMO) is going to pummel you. But when you grab a spear haft and yank it behind you pulling some schmuck into a whoopin' you really do feel like a bad ass.

Grand Lodge

I'm actually interested in playing one of these with the Dervish Dance feat, which lets you use dex for damage instead of strength when you use a scimitar in one hand and nothing in your other hand, AND it counts as a 1h piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require one.


Thhx for the responses.

Two things I missed that would make the variant viable:

1) Mithral Breastplates! You can get those at medium levels and counts as light armor. +2 AC while being Elusive, fix the problem of the low AC for medium level characters.
Ok, you can't get an Adamantine armor (which you would take later because is more expensive), but at very high levels Adamantine doesn't stack with Armor Mastery.

2)The benefits apply only when "carrying nothing in his other hand" but it doesn't say anything about attacking with the other hand (unarmed strike). You can wear an spiked gauntlet, invest feats in TWF and increase your damage output a bit when doing full round attacks. However many of your abilities force you to do standard attack actions.
Furthermore if the point is fighting with a single hand, it is kind of ridiculous.

Well, It seems the build has enough AC and tricks to survive combats and manage well in 1vs1 combats. But his damage output may not be enough to be useful for the party, and his AC isn't enough to be the guy taking all the hits.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the "Singleton" power not scaling may be a mistake of omission, especially in light of the comparable ability of the two-weapon fighter (Twin Blades) scaling at +1 at 5th and +1/4 levels thereafter.

You could argue that Singleton (and Twin Blades) are vastly more powerful than normal weapon training, because they apply with EVERY one-handed weapon (or every combo of TWF/double weapons), rather than a handful of weapons at a time. The thing is:

1. Each has restrictions. Twin Blades only works when you're making a full attack with TWF. No full attack = no bonus. Singleton only works with a one-handed weapon with nothing in the other hand, no shield, no TWF (unless, pending errata, you're allowed to TWF with a gauntlet or unarmed strike), no two-hander bennies.

2. In regular gameplay since the concept of weapon specialization was first introduced, fighters have tended to specialize. True, you can be a combat generalist, but most fighters will be better at some weapons than others, so the benefit of being equally good with all weapons is more apparent than real.

If my thought is true, however, and Singleton should scale up in level like Twin Blades does, then that leaves us the unanswered question of what to do with Weapon Training 4. We would have a couple of choices:

1. Leave it as it is. You just get a late burst of versatility with weapon training in some non-one-handed weapon group. Modestly handy if not very exciting.

2. Eliminate it. This leaves us with an empty class ability 'slot,' though, which I would suggest could be filled by:

a. An improvement in the Interference ability, so that it affects the target until the beginning of your next turn (rather than ending the first time the target gets hit).

b. Move the Reversal ability to 17th level, replacing weapon training 4 instead of armor mastery. This, of course, creates a new 'hole' at 19th level that you could fill by restoring armor mastery to the free hand fighter, though limited to light armor (to be consonant with his Elusive ability).

None of the above is an official erratum, but just some thoughts on things you might reasonably think about with regard to this archetype.

BTW, in answer to the earlier question, yes dodge bonuses to AC do stack with your CMD (see p. 199 of the Core Rules).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

A good analysis. And I think you're right, that it's basically a musketeer kind of build--although flail or another trip/disarm weapon would make the most out of some of the abilities, when I picture a character using these abilities, I picture a swordsmaster disarming her foes, etc.

And indeed, I think this is a great Fighter variant to use to qualify for Duelist. Take 10 levels of Free Hand Fighter, and 10 levels of Duelist -- all the abilities require you to be in light armor and not do anything with your off hand for many of the abilities to work. Add the Duelist's Precise Strike to the damage provided by Singleton (and I agree, that should be damage that increases incrementally at leveling) and you've got a nice little bonus to damage even if you're wielding a seemingly undevastating weapon. The disarm abilities of the Free Hand Fighter dovetail well with the other battlefield control abilities of the Duelist (I think, at least at first glance). Canny Defense would help the AC issue. You'd have an amazingly mobile fighter there.

OTOH, the idea for a flail master would be interesting. Or even whip master, if damage isn't your goal.

There is a lot of circumstantial stuff here--but this class would be especially effective in an urban campaign, where you know you'd be facing a lot of opponents with shields and disarmable weapons, and mobility would be key. In a campaign where you know you'd be hunting dragons in the mountains, not so much.

My one change I definitely want made to the Free Hand Fighter? Acrobatics as a class skill. It's obviously supposed to be a mobile, fast moving class, Acrobatics fits it. (Plus it's always irritated the crap out of me that Acrobatics isn't a Fighter class skill, because Jump was in 3.5 and they basically lose a skill. Who wants to make fighters lose a skill?)

Dark Archive

The free-hand fighter does lean heavily toward maneuver use, which - while not a bad thing - narrows the field of viable builds. If you're using Improved Disarm, having a free hand means you can easily pick up (and pass on or cast away, next round) the weapons that you disarm. Also, as someone already said - it's a great setup for Duelist.

The traditional disarming/maneuvering free-hand fighter builds aside; here are two considerations you may not be... uh, considering.

1.) A mithral-breastplated free-hand fighter who selects a shield as his weapon of choice will have a very respectable armor class (light armor, high Dexterity, Dodge, shield, and Elusive) and be highly mobile. Consider maxing out Acrobatics and going down the Vital Strike line (with Spring Attack, if you can afford the feats). Shield Slam (plus Agile Maneuvers) is an obvious choice and adds crowd control to the things-that-you-can-do list. Shield Focus / Greater Shield Focus further jack your AC up without sacrificing speed.

2.) Two-Weapon Fighting is still very viable for the free-hand fighter. Use armor spikes, use your free hand, or dip into monk and use your feet, elbows, shoulders, and knees. Armor spikes aren't a bad choice, but if you take Improved Unarmed Strike, you can grab Deflect Arrows (and Snatch Arrows, why not). Also, nothing stops you from combining a shield in your primary hand (see above) with an off-hand armor spike or unarked strike while you Two-Weapon Fight. That, plus Deflect Arrows (or Wind Stance/Lightning Stance if you go for Spring Attack) further improve your defense.


Ryu_Hitome wrote:


I'm actually interested in playing one of these with the Dervish Dance feat,[...]

Interesting, but that means converting a feat from a 3.5 Accesory to Pathfinder (and I don't like the feat btw).

DeathQuaker wrote:


And indeed, I think this is a great Fighter variant to use to qualify for Duelist. Take 10 levels of Free Hand Fighter, and 10 levels of Duelist[...]

True, however it makes the last 10 levels of the class useless, and I didn't want to take a muketeer PrC damn it! :D

Now, I wonder if the Duelist PrC has been "broken" due to the free hand fighter.

Garden Tool wrote:


A mithral-breastplated free-hand fighter who selects a shield as his weapon of choice will have a very respectable armor class[...]

That really gives a nice AC at the expense of feats, however I'm not sure how it works, because "Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy/ligth shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.[...]"

In any case, it means also less damage and Critical range, and this build has a damage issue at high levels, prolly also at medium levels. The AC without the shield is usually in line with that of THW fighter.
Vital Strike is certainly an option, many abilities require the use of a move action, altough any weapon we use doesn't benefit too much of it (+1d8 damage per feat at most).
Oh, a bastard sword (taking the Exotic Weapon feat) can be used, is listed as a One-handed weapon. It is getting better.

Garden Tool wrote:


Two-Weapon Fighting is still very viable for the free-hand fighter. Use armor spikes, use your free hand,[...]

I had doubts about what can you do with the free hand, but the armor spikes are really a solution, the problem is that THW fighters also have this option (plus other advantages). Furthermore some special abilities of the Free hand fighter prevent you from using full round attacks now and then.

I like the idea of taking deflect arrows, altough it doesn't solve the damage issue.


Jason Nelson wrote:


I think the "Singleton" power not scaling may be a mistake of omission, especially in light of the comparable ability of the two-weapon fighter (Twin Blades) scaling at +1 at 5th and +1/4 levels thereafter.

That would fix the damage issue at high levels, but I wonder if it would also get us in the opposite direction.

Jason Nelson wrote:


2. In regular gameplay since the concept of weapon specialization was first introduced, fighters have tended to specialize. True, you can be a combat generalist, but most fighters will be better at some weapons than others, so the benefit of being equally good with all weapons is more apparent than real.

Yes, once I get Weapon Focus and a masterwork weapon (which can happen at level 2), there are few reasons to use other weapons. At higher levels it gets worse (specialization, +5 Flaming Swords, Mega Greater Focus, Magic Stores where I can buy my favourite magic weapon, etc...)

_____

I have to say that It is a complex class, because it is quite different from any other, I think that It would need a lot of playtesting to make it work properly.

After that brainstorm I wouldn't mind playing one from 1 to 10th level. But at higher levels it doesn't seem able to deal enough damage (or conditions) per round to be useful for the party. It may have enough AC and tricks to handle enemies, but it can take a lot of time to defeat them. Difficult to balance imo.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

PathfinderEspañol wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:


And indeed, I think this is a great Fighter variant to use to qualify for Duelist. Take 10 levels of Free Hand Fighter, and 10 levels of Duelist[...]
True, however it makes the last 10 levels of the class useless, and I didn't want to take a muketeer PrC damn it! :D

I'm not saying the ONLY way to build a Free Hand Fighter is to go the Duelist route. I'm saying it's an ideal kit to start from if you want to be a Duelist. And particularly if you're thinking of creating a swordmaster with the Free Hand Fighter, the Duelist should be considered.

Your original post posed that a flailmaster would make a great Free Hand Fighter, and I agree--and they would not benefit at all from taking Duelist. Moreover, those later 10 levels would be far from useless to them, but rather, further bolster their combat maneuvers of awesome. PLUS, staying full fighter gets you all those extra bonus feats.

You CAN make an awesome musketeer with the FHF. You don't HAVE to, and you yourself have shown why.

Also, as you'd mentioned, the class would be a good combo with rogue. The levels of Fighter you don't take to take Rogue levels instead would be no more "useless"--just a different path. I think it's actually a good sign that the FHF can be taken on multiple paths; I like that possibility of flexibility, especially for a non-spellcaster.

Also, as briefly mentioned before, I'd love to see a whipmaster with this class. Yes, yes, difficult because they don't do lethal damage... but I'd still like to see it.

Quote:
Now, I wonder if the Duelist PrC has been "broken" due to the free hand fighter.

I don't think so. I was monkeying around with a 20 level build just to see what it would look like. And it looks really cool, and really mobile, but certainly is not the uber awesome.

On the upside, you have someone who can just dance through the battlefield--very unlikely to be hit by AOOs, make it very easy to get into position, flank. This is a good party member, really great melee support (even if not the dps master). And Precise Strike and Canny Defense give you a great damage boost and decent AC boost respectively.

On the downside, you lose bonus feats. And while that may not seem so bad, this build is heavy on the "feat taxing" (I don't like that phrase, mind, but it was the best I could come up with)--Duelist requires Weapon Finesse, Dodge, and Mobility. You are likely doing a disarm build, so there's Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Greater Disarm. You will likely also end up wanting or needing Agile Maneuvers. AND since the Duelist's capstone is a critical hit-based ability, you'll be wanting Improved Critical and Critical Focus down the line. And then possibly--do you want one or more of the Critical Feats? Do you want to capitalize on mobility? Do you want to boost damage via Vital Strike? You can do some of these--but you can't do all. Your build is cool, but it becomes somewhat limited in a specific way.

In the end I would say it's a tradeoff--which is what it should be.

Grand Lodge

PathfinderEspañol wrote:
Ryu_Hitome wrote:


I'm actually interested in playing one of these with the Dervish Dance feat,[...]
Interesting, but that means converting a feat from a 3.5 Accesory to Pathfinder (and I don't like the feat btw).

Dervish Dance, from p.23 of the "Qadira: Gateway to the East"? Looks PF to me. The example for the Half-Janni later in the book has skills such as Acrobatics and Stealth. Besides, the way the feat's written up, there's no conversion necessary, as it doesn't incorporate anything 3.5 specific.

It's okay if you don't like it, it's not my goal to argue that, but I was thinking you might have the wrong feat in mind, that's all.

The Exchange

reading this, I was considering the Duelist PRC and how it's not too feasible to have the free hand fighter archtype and the duelist PRC together due to mechanics

edit: the mechanics beeing, for the archtype, you need to be fighter for X amount of levels, which is more time you cannot progress on Duelist.

then it dawned on me, the archtype itself should be almost a template to lay atop the fighter/duelist progression. where it'd either replace certain feats to get those special abilities, or in addition.

anyone think this is interesting? I mean you could take some of the main feat styles TWF, THF, S&B, and fencer and have these templates adhere to your character at creation. so you could take a few levels of fighter, or for the more swashbuckler type, a level or two in rogue, go into duelist, and not lose these class abilities that combined with the PRC's abilities, may make 1 hand viable.

on a related note, I enjoyed the Professional PRC in KoDT not too long ago, which is of a finesse style as well.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Zerombr wrote:

reading this, I was considering the Duelist PRC and how it's not too feasible to have the free hand fighter archtype and the duelist PRC together due to mechanics

edit: the mechanics beeing, for the archtype, you need to be fighter for X amount of levels, which is more time you cannot progress on Duelist.

then it dawned on me, the archtype itself should be almost a template to lay atop the fighter/duelist progression. where it'd either replace certain feats to get those special abilities, or in addition.

anyone think this is interesting? I mean you could take some of the main feat styles TWF, THF, S&B, and fencer and have these templates adhere to your character at creation. so you could take a few levels of fighter, or for the more swashbuckler type, a level or two in rogue, go into duelist, and not lose these class abilities that combined with the PRC's abilities, may make 1 hand viable.

on a related note, I enjoyed the Professional PRC in KoDT not too long ago, which is of a finesse style as well.

I am really not sure what you mean here. You mean swap some of the archetype abilities for duelist class abilities so your archetype abilities that increase as you go up in fighter levels continue to increase? (So, for a possible hypothetical example, you swap the duelist's grace for boosting the fhf's elusive ability?)

IF that's the case, and again, I really don't know if I'm reading you right... I disagree. Taking a PrC is about sacrificing some base class abilities for some cool prestige abilities. I don't think you should be able to have your cake and eat it too. I think if you were to go into duelist, you'd have to accept that you're trading off some of your attack and defense bonus increases for different attack and defense bonuses (e.g., uncanny defense and precise strike).

And you could in fact only "dip" into Duelist a few levels for the first two abilites (although its other abilities and its capstone would also be very nice) if you wanted to primarily focus on being a FHF. A, say, Free Hand Fighter 16/Duelist 4 would still be pretty cool, as much (but in a different way) as a FHF 10/Duelist 10 -- and (again in a different way) for that matter a FHF 20.

As for "needing to be a fighter for x amount of levels" before progressing to duelist... you have to be in your base class for at least 6 levels before taking Duelist (or any PrC) anyway. Again, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. Sorry if I'm being dense.

The Exchange

I'm talking about something quite different, actually. I just didn't explain it very well, i believe.

What I am saying, is that it'd be interesting/useful most likely to have a template for a character, a series of abilities that the character gets as he levels, no matter what class he picks, much like with feats.

for instance, let's say I want to make a light armor duelist

so at level 1 I get that fighter ACF that was mentioned, even if I'm not playing fighter

and at lvl 6 I get the next one, etc.

What I am saying is, that these abilities would be much nicer if not necessarily confined to a single class. It's no secret that generally a player will pick a fighting style that they like, and go 100% to that style, archery, TWF, THF, as mentioned above, so you just select the TWF template, auto-get those abilities at certain levels, and that frees you up in any other feat selection. Granted that's probably best in a feat every 3 levels game, but I think it's interesting. It'd let you get that flexibility of the free hand fighter, while letting you dip into rogue or duelist without ruining progression.

it's just an idea mind you, but I find it interesting.


One note: the OP mentions that you lose out on some armor bonus to AC, getting a dodge bonus instead. This means the character is more vulnerable when flatfooted, but less vulnerable to touch attacks. Dodge bonuses apply to CMD also. This could make an interesting defensive fighter.


Zerombr wrote:

I'm talking about something quite different, actually. I just didn't explain it very well, i believe.

What I am saying, is that it'd be interesting/useful most likely to have a template for a character, a series of abilities that the character gets as he levels, no matter what class he picks, much like with feats.

for instance, let's say I want to make a light armor duelist

so at level 1 I get that fighter ACF that was mentioned, even if I'm not playing fighter

and at lvl 6 I get the next one, etc.

What I am saying is, that these abilities would be much nicer if not necessarily confined to a single class. It's no secret that generally a player will pick a fighting style that they like, and go 100% to that style, archery, TWF, THF, as mentioned above, so you just select the TWF template, auto-get those abilities at certain levels, and that frees you up in any other feat selection. Granted that's probably best in a feat every 3 levels game, but I think it's interesting. It'd let you get that flexibility of the free hand fighter, while letting you dip into rogue or duelist without ruining progression.

it's just an idea mind you, but I find it interesting.

Another subsystem? I hope not.

However what you say is already in the game, looks like the current feat trees.
The TWF tree is quite a template if you ask me, you can't play a decent fighter with two weapons without taking always the same feats that make TWF doable.
The same can be said for Archery.

Someone is going to kick me for saying so, but here I go:
The Duelist and The Free Hand Fighter are just a partial solution that impede further improvements.
Free hand fighting should have been a chain of basic feats for everyone, as TWF is. And THEN The Duelist PrC and The Free Hand Fighter would be made over those basic rules to add more flavour and special abilities.

However It didn't happen, after years of D&D nobody has developed a reliable set of feats afaik, so Paizo had no reference.

Now that's what we have:
The Duelist. A PrC.
The Free Hand Fighter. Fighters only sorry, barbarians, rangers and knigths should use the Duelist.

Now, if someone wants to make those feats, he must be careful, because there are strong synergies with the PrC and the Variant Fighter. You can't just say "it doesn't stack with the Duelist" because it only makes sense for game mechanics. You can't change what is already done.

Maybe the next Edition.


PathfinderEspañol wrote:
Zerombr wrote:

I'm talking about something quite different, actually. I just didn't explain it very well, i believe.

What I am saying, is that it'd be interesting/useful most likely to have a template for a character, a series of abilities that the character gets as he levels, no matter what class he picks, much like with feats.

for instance, let's say I want to make a light armor duelist

so at level 1 I get that fighter ACF that was mentioned, even if I'm not playing fighter

and at lvl 6 I get the next one, etc.

What I am saying is, that these abilities would be much nicer if not necessarily confined to a single class. It's no secret that generally a player will pick a fighting style that they like, and go 100% to that style, archery, TWF, THF, as mentioned above, so you just select the TWF template, auto-get those abilities at certain levels, and that frees you up in any other feat selection. Granted that's probably best in a feat every 3 levels game, but I think it's interesting. It'd let you get that flexibility of the free hand fighter, while letting you dip into rogue or duelist without ruining progression.

it's just an idea mind you, but I find it interesting.

Another subsystem? I hope not.

However what you say is already in the game, looks like the current feat trees.
The TWF tree is quite a template if you ask me, you can't play a decent fighter with two weapons without taking always the same feats that make TWF doable.
The same can be said for Archery.

Someone is going to kick me for saying so, but here I go:
The Duelist and The Free Hand Fighter are just a partial solution that impede further improvements.
Free hand fighting should have been a chain of basic feats for everyone, as TWF is. And THEN The Duelist PrC and The Free Hand Fighter would be made over those basic rules to add more flavour and special abilities.

However It didn't happen, after years of D&D nobody has developed a reliable set of feats afaik, so Paizo had no reference.

Now that's...

You know - thinking of this like a "1st attempt" is probably the only way to take it well. As a 1st attempt at validating the free-hand archetype, it's not half bad.

HOWEVER, it still fails in certain respects. So, to me, I'm going back to the drawing board and I'm going to revise and refine some feats that revolve around "free hand" types of things.


This archetype looks to have a lot more potential with the "Dervish Dance" feat and a dip into Urban Barbarian


I don't understand the OP's objection to Dervish Dance. It's in the Inner Sea World Guide (p. 286), which is definitely Pathfinder era, not 3.5. It lets you pump Dex to improve attack, damage, AC, initiative, reflex saves, and all the Dex based skills. That is a TON of improvement off just one stat.

I can easily see a free hand fighter build like this (which I'll only pursue to level 9):

Elf (20 point buy):
STR: 8
DEX: 18 (16+2 racial)
CON: 13 (15-2 racial)
INT: 16 (14+2 racial)
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

Add one point to CON at level 4 for added HP/fort saves; the others in DEX.

Feats and class abilities:
1 Toughness
1 Weapon Finesse (Fighter Bonus)
2 Dodge (Fighter bonus)
3 Dervish Dance
4 Mobility (Fighter bonus)
5 Combat Reflexes
7 Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9 Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)

The first 5 levels are FreeHand Fighter, then 2 Shadowdancer, then 2 Duelist.

The Shadowdancer sacrifices 1 point of BAB, but it gets you:

- Hide in Plain Sight (fun tactical options)
- Evasion (powered by your high Dex to avoid AoE damage)
- Uncanny Dodge

As noted by Lathiira, the PC is more vulnerable than usual when flat-footed. Well, Uncanny Dodge goes a long way towards mitigating that vulnerability.

The Duelist is a natural fit too. The entry requirements are practically identical to Shadowdancer, and the abilities complement nicely:

- Canny Defense to add Int to your AC
- Precise strike to up your damage a bit.

At level 9 with this progression, assuming that you:

- have spent 1 point on a Con increase and 1 point on Dex
- acquired a +4 Dex belt
- and have a +2 scimitar

... your attack bonus would look like

8 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 weapon focus + 2 enhancement = +17/+12 (1d6+10/18-20x3).

Assuming you have a +2 mithral breastplate, your AC would be:

10 + 6 armor + 5 Dex + 1 Dodge feat + 2 Int + 1 dodge (elusive) = 25/19 touch/16 flat-footed.

But of course Uncanny Dodge (from Shadowdancer) specifies that you can't be caught flat-footed unless somebody successfully uses feint on you. One more level of Free-hand fighter would increase that by +1, as would another level of Duelist (up to your INT bonus, so an Int headband would be a good purchase). And all of that doesn't count thinks like Haste (+1), an Amulet of Natural Armor, the ioun stone that gives you a +1 insight bonus to AC, or a Ring of Deflection.

This is probably not "optimal" in the sense of dishing out huge amounts of damage. And the first 2 or 3 levels might be a little rough. But it's certainly playable.

The major weakness of the build is Will saves, but fitting Iron Will and Improved Iron Will into the early levels didn't really work with the prestige class requirements. Those would be my next choice for feats.

Anyway, this sounds like fun to me. YMMV.

Sczarni

This thread got me thinking about what kinds of examples from movies and other fiction there are of somebody who wields a one-handed weapon and leaves the other hand empty. And you know what I thought of?

The classic slasher movie serial killer and his machete.

If the OP doesn't want to play a musketeer-wannabe, this might be an interesting way to play as well. You'd probably dump all your mental stats into the ground as far as your GM will let you, but take Intimidating Prowess and Iron Will. Of Pathfinder's one-handers, the sickle seems most suited as the weapon a slasher might use-- possibly the hand axe. I don't know if Freddy Krueger's spiked glove has a PF equivalent, but the cestus might count. Your Dazzling Display would just be you raising the weapon threateningly and glaring.

I don't know how well this works with the Free Hand archetype, but it is a one-handed build that isn't psuedo-musketeer!


or Zorro

Shadow Lodge

you can make a very powerful character by mixing in monk, using a temple sword, and focusing on disarming.

it will let your monk function better at that goal. they have better archetypes that can do that same thing, but this could be powerful also. its a pretty awesome concept that disarms a target then beats its ass with its own weapon.

dervish is pretty good also, but then why not play a rogue?


ew lawful...yuck


Sirlink wrote:
ew lawful...yuck

Re-read the alignment descriptions in the Core Rulebook, I bet most people skim over them if they even glance at them at all. They aren't nearly as rigid as 3.5 and earlier...

Sovereign Court

PathfinderEspañol wrote:
Any comment just saying that I should believe in Paizo as I believe in God won't be welcomed, useful answers please everything else will be of great help.

I don't know... I believe firmly in both Pathfinder and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I've never had problems.

I second the motion for Dervish Dance. It meshes perfectly with the archetype and almost brings it up to par. I'd recommend a few other ways to play a one-handed character, but I have no clue what the OP means by "pseudo-musketeer"; I can at least guarantee you that most one-handed builds do not, in fact, rely on having a musket.


If the lawful aspect of being a monk is a problem then look at the Martial Artist archetype (which can be any alignment but does give up many monk things)


PathfinderEspañol wrote:

If there is something you can't do in D&D is a fighter with a one handed weapon, unless you take levels in some pseudo-musketeer PrC.

When I saw the variant class "Free Hand Fighter" in the APG (pag 105 of APG) I tough "finally", but It seems far worse than any other fighter build.
Furthermore, the "free hand" isn't really free, and if all you want is a viable fighter that can use a one-handed weapon without a shield, this variant class is more about doing special maneuvers, which brings us to the pseudo-musketeer class again. Maybe it works ok, but doesn't look like a class a player would want to test.

Know what can make it work well? Crane Style. A nice mix is Free Hand Fighter 5/Master of Many Styles 2/Duelist {the rest}. Works like a charm.

Grand Lodge

To those that do not understand the OP's comments, remember, this is a 2 year old thread.


Damn, this is one zombie...

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