| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
I've got a player interested in the Skirmisher Ranger, so I've been looking over the Hunter's Tricks to see what he might be able to do and one of them confused me. I don't see the usefulness of Surprise Shift.
Surprise Shift (Ex): The ranger can move 5 feet as a move action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.
Don't 5-foot steps already not provoke? Why would I want to waste my move action and one of my Tricks to do something that I can already do? Especially since I can't further take a 5-foot step that round, since that only works when you haven't taken a move action to move (which you are doing here). Anyone see what I'm missing that makes this Trick not useless?
Nope. That one didn't make any sense to me, either.
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I have to wonder if it was meant to be immediate or swift. I think either way it still keeps you from taking another 5ft. step (can only do so if you make no other movement in the round, and this is still movement) but as an immediate action you can step out of the enemies reach after they have moved up to you, wasting their attack.
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I have to wonder if it was meant to be immediate or swift. I think either way it still keeps you from taking another 5ft. step (can only do so if you make no other movement in the round, and this is still movement) but as an immediate action you can step out of the enemies reach after they have moved up to you, wasting their attack.
Hmm but it *isn't* actually a 5ft step from the text of the ability so perhaps you really are supposed to be able to 5ft step again...
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Hmm but it *isn't* actually a 5ft step from the text of the ability so perhaps you really are supposed to be able to 5ft step again...
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
I can only guess it is to allow you to 5ft step in difficult terrain, as 0gre pointed out. It should be worded differently if so.
"This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity "
I think is the relevant part of the text.
its not the 5ft part or the move action, its the abily to adjust yourself 5 feet without AoO penalty.
This would allow the person to take a "move" even adjacent to an enemy without having to withdraw or such. Useful to get into flank position or such.
-S
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"This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity "
I think is the relevant part of the text.
its not the 5ft part or the move action, its the abily to adjust yourself 5 feet without AoO penalty.This would allow the person to take a "move" even adjacent to an enemy without having to withdraw or such. Useful to get into flank position or such.
-S
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
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The Drunken Master Monk archetype has this same problem. One of the options for drunken ki points is:
As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a move action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity.
I think the intent is for these to be in addition to 5' steps. Otherwise they make absolutely no sense.
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The only thing I can think of is that their use does NOT allow enemies to use abilities like Step Up that counter 5ft steps in some manner, since it doesn't actually count as a 5ft step.
There's also the fact that you can't 5ft step in difficult terrain or if your movement speed is dropped to 5ft.
There's also the fact that you can't 5ft step in difficult terrain
You can't do that with these, either.
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There's also the fact that you can't 5ft step in difficult terrainYou can't do that with these, either.
True enough.. besides the fact that there're already feats that allow you to overcome that anyway.
So yeah, it's down to "my move speed is 5" and "the enemy has step up or a similar ability." I guess it'd be okay for casting if you're paranoid, or at least it would be if you didn't give up casting to get it...*head explodes*
There's also the fact that because this is not a 5-foot step, you are not prevented from moving in the same turn. So if you are facing an enemy with reach, you can move to the edge of his threat, and then surprise shift adjacent to avoid provoking. You can do the same thing to run away from someone without a reach weapon - surprise shift out of their threat range and then move.
That said, the ability makes a lot more sense if it does not prevent you from 5-foot stepping, and that is how I would house rule it.
I've got a player interested in the Skirmisher Ranger, so I've been looking over the Hunter's Tricks to see what he might be able to do and one of them confused me. I don't see the usefulness of Surprise Shift.
Surprise Shift (Ex): The ranger can move 5 feet as a move action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.Don't 5-foot steps already not provoke? Why would I want to waste my move action and one of my Tricks to do something that I can already do? Especially since I can't further take a 5-foot step that round, since that only works when you haven't taken a move action to move (which you are doing here). Anyone see what I'm missing that makes this Trick not useless?
IMO it only makes sense if you still can do a 5' step (by RAW you can't, because if you move you can't take the 5' step).
If you can still do the 5' step it would be quite useful in many situations that are dangerous for archers and skirmishers, like being flanked. In those cases you could move 10' without provoking AoOs and fire an arrow ( usually you can only move 5', to a place where you still provoke AoOs and perform a full round attack provoking many AoOs).
Yep, looking at drunken master I couldn't see the point either. Useless abilities bug me. Oh well.
Of course, one thing I don't think anyone has pointed out. You could take two surprise shifts in a round, sure just moving 10' without AoO for your round isn't awesome, but there are some situations where it could be handy.
How about moving up to double your speed as a full-round action without provoking AoOs? Also known as using the withdraw action.
These feats/class abilities should simply say "you may take an additional 5-ft step as a move action" if they wanted them to stack with 5-ft steps. That would read cleaner, and would actually work with the rules :)
Of course, one thing I don't think anyone has pointed out. You could take two surprise shifts in a round, sure just moving 10' without AoO for your round isn't awesome, but there are some situations where it could be handy.How about moving up to double your speed as a full-round action without provoking AoOs? Also known as using the withdraw action.
Not quite. Withdraw only prevents AoOs on the first square of movement. If you're withdrawing from adjacent to a creature with reach, it'll still get an AoO on you.
Right; and using this feat as a semi-withdraw for a total of 10' of movement won't do anything if you're facing a creature with reach, as it would still be able to full-attack you on its turn if you do that :)
You could use this to move 5 feet twice, using your move and standard actions. Then make a 5 foot step for a total of 15 feet of movement with provoking an attack. This could come in handy as a way to close in to/get away from a creature with reach, you lose the 1 attack you would get if you just moved in but you would also not get an AoO triggered. I think it has it's uses but overall it is a little underwhelming.
You could use this to move 5 feet twice, using your move and standard actions. Then make a 5 foot step for a total of 15 feet of movement with provoking an attack. This could come in handy as a way to close in to/get away from a creature with reach, you lose the 1 attack you would get if you just moved in but you would also not get an AoO triggered. I think it has it's uses but overall it is a little underwhelming.
You can't take a 5' step and move on your turn. You could make a double move to move five feet on difficult terrain without provoking an attack... but, again, you could use withdraw to do the same thing, so I'm still not seeing any utility here.
You can't take a 5' step and move on your turn. You could make a double move to move five feet on difficult terrain without provoking an attack... but, again, you could use withdraw to do the same thing, so I'm still not seeing any utility here.
You can make a five foot step even if you have taken a move action, provided that move action was not used to move. I believe the way this is worded to be that it is intended to be done alongside a five foot step, basically it is a five foot step that still leaves a regular five foot step as an available action. Otherwise the ability is completely useless since there are already feats and abilities that let rangers ignore difficult terrain.
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You can't take a 5' step and move on your turn. You could make a double move to move five feet on difficult terrain without provoking an attack... but, again, you could use withdraw to do the same thing, so I'm still not seeing any utility here.You can make a five foot step even if you have taken a move action, provided that move action was not used to move. I believe the way this is worded to be that it is intended to be done alongside a five foot step, basically it is a five foot step that still leaves a regular five foot step as an available action. Otherwise the ability is completely useless since there are already feats and abilities that let rangers ignore difficult terrain.
+1. I think the feat is intended to be an "additional" 5-ft. step that does *not* count as a 5-ft. step (i.e. you can move 10' per round without provoking AoOs). I think it's a pretty nice ability.
+1. I think the feat is intended to be an "additional" 5-ft. step that does *not* count as a 5-ft. step (i.e. you can move 10' per round without provoking AoOs). I think it's a pretty nice ability.
That would make some sense of it. I think the wording is unfortunately unclear.
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Honestly, I think that these should both (the Drunken Monk's and the Ranger's move action 5-foot thing) be made into swift actions. Then, it basically becomes a 5ft step that you can use with other movement. Due to the limited uses per day, I don't really see how this would be bad. It's certainly better than being useless except in a very unlikely scenario
The Drunken Master Monk archetype has this same problem. One of the options for drunken ki points is:
As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a move action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity.I think the intent is for these to be in addition to 5' steps. Otherwise they make absolutely no sense.
I notice there is no 'this is not a 5' step' line for the monk, though you could make the argument that the move action is used on spending ki, and the actual movement is a non-action and therefore still allowing a five foot step.
Anyway I agree that treating these movements as an addition 5' step was the intention and see the utility of that.
I just read this ability and have the same question/concern. Sorry to revive an old thread but I would really like to know what the designers intended on this. Any designers around want to clear this up or has this been errata'd somewhere?
+1. I think the feat is intended to be an "additional" 5-ft. step that does *not* count as a 5-ft. step (i.e. you can move 10' per round without provoking AoOs). I think it's a pretty nice ability.
This makes the most sense.
SHA-BAM! Official errata!
Page 110—In the Drunken Master archetype, in the Drunken Ki class feature, in the sixth sentence, change “as a move action” to “as a swift action.”
Page 129—In the Skirmisher archetype, in the Hunter’s Tricks class feature, in the Surprise Shift paragraph, in the first sentence, change “as a move action” to “as a swift action.”
Nice. So this 5-foot swift action counts towards your total movement in your round, right?
1) SS + 5-foot step + Full Round Action
2) SS + Move + Standard Action
3) SS + Move + Move???
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Also what about difficult terrain?
Nice. So this 5-foot swift action counts towards your total movement in your round, right?
1) SS + 5-foot step + Full Round Action
2) SS + Move + Standard Action
3) SS + Move + Move???--
Also what about difficult terrain?
#1 doesn't work since the Surprise Shift is still defined as movement, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move. The other two work just fine. You could also use SS + Withdraw to get away from an adjacent foe with reach, with no AoO.
I'd say difficult terrian prevents the Surprise Shift just like it does a 5-foot step. It still costs 10' of movement (or 15' diagonal) to move into the square, SS just gives you a 5' move so it's not enough.