|
Any one else miss Ki Blast from 3.5. I was wanting my monk to have a range attack and shurikens just don't do it for me, woo 1D2 sick damage... But anyways, any one have any thoughts of how Ki Blast should work in PF? I was thinking of somthing along the lines of...
Ki Blast
Prerequisites: Ki pool, Dex and Wis 13.By spending 2 Ki points the monk may make a range attack up to 60ft away as a standard action. This attack deals 1D6 per monk level + Wisdom modifier (Energy or force damage or maybe even bludgeoning) in damage.
My thinking is that at level 20 the monk would only deal 20D6 as opposed to the 7 attacks at 2D10 per hit and the Wizard/Sorcerer spell Meteor Swarm has the potential of dealing 24D6 to an area. I can't see this being too bad, if any one has any kind of critisim that would be great!
Sorry to rain on your parade but shurikens are WAY better than you give credit.
1D2+strength+deadly aim+poison+point blank shot+any other misc buffs, and you are throwing a minimum of 2 of them per round if you have the mind to.
Yeah, I can see your point but it does not seem like a lawful character should be using poisons.
So beating someone to death with your fists is lawful, but not if you add a chemical to the process? Why?
|
|
I'm pretty sure that poison use is restricted to evil characters...and you would have to carry all your poisoned shuriken out, can't just have a bag full of poisoned shuriken (or anything) just hanging out ready to go.
Anyway back to the topic, 1d6 every other level for your Ki Blast sounds a little more balanced to me. (like the cleric's channel energy or sneak attack)
In the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide there is a monk archetype titled "Ki Mystic". I'm pretty sure he'll be the answer to your Ki Blasting needs.
|
I like shuriken for close range and a light crossbow for longer range attacks. As "Themetricsystem" mentioned, I can do as much damage with 2 shuriken as with one crossbow bolt. I can throw 2 shuriken per round using FoB.
I personally eschew poison (even if it is allowed - I'm not sure) because it just doesn't seem like a lawful good thing to do. Although tripping an opponent and kicking the living daylights out of him while he is prone doesn't seem all that lawful good either.
much as I hate to rain on the "shuriken rock!" crowd - but don't forget that they have PISS POOR range compared to ... well ... everything.
10' range increment, and the changes to Far Shot = INEFFECTIVE so you might as well walk up and flurry. Seriously, IF your GM counts RI's (and I do), then shuriken, and thrown wpns by RAW suck.
Sure - if you make the Bolo Young monk his shuriken will hit like a freakin' longsword ... but they'll only hit within 10' with any reasonable *reliability* as far as I'm concerned.
So, if you want a *real* ranged weapon Ki Blast it is.
Honestly, I kind of liked the way Ki Blast worked by default, though, John. It was 2 SF uses to get 1 shot as a move action, then a standard to let it rip as a ranged touch attack. I'm not sure if you changed that ranged touch or not, but IMO it was one of the nicer features.
I'd keep the default mechanics of Ki Blast from 3.x entirely intact.
What *is* interesting, though, is that you brought up Ki Points into the mix. Now, by default, charging Ki Point (class feature) for a feat seems *really* expensive/costly. It's not even in the neighborhood of like Improved Smite where you're using a feat to improve an existing class feature - you're picking up a feat (your mechanics) to spend class features to get an effect ... which bones both the class feature AND the feat, IMO.
I *do* love the concept in general of expanding Ki Points to have a role in a Ki Blast IF you want to burn one for it.
IMO, maybe just add an option to the uses of Ki Points to include burning the Ki point to add some value to the base Ki Blast itself. Honestly, burning a ki piont to get say +1/2 monk level in damage isn't half bad for a ranged tough attack.
Bottom line effects in-play of this:
*2 daily uses of stunning fist to generate a single ki-blast
*move action to create the ki-ball/orb/whatever
*standard action to fire the ki blast (ie: only 1/round PERIOD)
*Ranged Touch Attack to hit with the ki blast
*Ki Blast (if striking) does 3d6+wis modifier in force damage
*Burn 1 Ki Point to increase damage by +1/2 monk level in d6's (ie: at 20th level it's a 13d6+wis mod ranged touch attack).
Thanks for getting me thinking along these lines - I'd not gotten as far as integrating Ki Blast fully to PF yet, but adding a Ki burn option is a great idea, IMO.
Yeah, I can see your point but it does not seem like a lawful character should be using poisons.So beating someone to death with your fists is lawful, but not if you add a chemical to the process? Why?
Paladin to his monk cohort: "Beat him his rights, Dano."
|
|
much as I hate to rain on the "shuriken rock!" crowd - but don't forget that they have PISS POOR range compared to ... well ... everything.
10' range increment, and the changes to Far Shot = INEFFECTIVE so you might as well walk up and flurry. Seriously, IF your GM counts RI's (and I do), then shuriken, and thrown wpns by RAW suck.
Sure - if you make the Bolo Young monk his shuriken will hit like a freakin' longsword ... but they'll only hit within 10' with any reasonable *reliability* as far as I'm concerned.
There is no reason a monk with decent scores should miss more often than not with shurikens even out to 30 feet. Sure you get a -6 but monks get so many feats there is really no reason NOT to get far shot cutting that in half. Then you add point blank shot which takes one of that away. Next comes masterwork and all the other buffs you would likely have. At level 6, with the requisite feats a monk can sling out 5 shuriken a turn from the start of combat as opposed to running up to the creature and hitting it once.
Assuming a +3 dex and str (and no party buffs) at level 6 with the right feats his attacks could look like this at 30 feet
4/4/-1/4/4 at (1d2+8+poison)
Of course that is with all possible resources expended, if you took out rapid shot, you would bump each attack up by 2 and lose one of the bonus attacks on the end.
Also, don't forget about catching your opponent flat footed, that is a nice little 2 off the AC block right here in most cases.
TL:DR, I think you are underestimating the use of these nasty little buggers. The vast majority of damage dealt in combat comes from static bonuses, not rolled dice.
|
|
but monks get so many feats there is really no reason NOT to get far shotlol, what?
you're high. monks need every feat they get. they also need every bonus they can get. sure they hold their own at low levels but they get out shined at mid to high levels.
By the time you are level 10, a monk (non human) gets 9 feats. I hardly think playing to your strengths is a bad idea and ranged damage with shurikens is a MAJOR strength in my opinion. To me playing a monk as a strait up full attacking melee character is asking to get killed, you just plain out don't have enough health unless you want to invest character potential into being defensive in which case you won't be filling the very role you want to because you have to split your efforts.
The class is conflicted I will definatley agree with that and my point is trying to play them like a full attacking fighter is a bad idea, they don't work like that and I think that is the main issue with the class, it encourages you to get close and stay there when you really cant AFFORD to do that, on risk of your life.
1d2 + 8 w/a +3 str ... wtf???
That doesn't quite add up, man.
What's he doing to get this? PB shot = +1 flat. what else are you looking at? DA??? Why? to further guarantee misses?
I'm down w/the +8 of the bolo young monk (ie: the one where str = primary stat and focus and boosted RIGHT the hell up), but no ... not following that breakdown.
I still stand by it being a weak and TERRIBLE option.
Case in point: I have just played a game recently where the party was messing with a beholder - it was floating. {3.x mind you - no Ki options available}
Freakin TK's me up front, whups my butt good on a blown save (yes - it happens even when it's a good one). So I'm sitting there wondering WTF I'm gonna do 'cuz I can't hit shite!!! It was like 60' away and like 20' up. DM reminds me about shuriken, I'm like ... ok - got nothing else to help with really (as I'm thinking the 20' jump is INSANE to try at my level of 8 w/no ki boosters to help and an "ok" investment in the skill). So I start whipping shuriken ... guy's got a good Dex, too (like 20 I believe), so w/the +5 on "to hits" it's nothing but whiff except for 1 19 and 1 20 ... that's USING the flurry, too, mind you. He's not bolo-young build, though, so it's 1d2+2.
Now ... come to find out the GM forgot about the frakkin range. At 60', that would have been like a -10 to hit on all things. ONLY that 20 would have been useful. I *was* using my 5' of step during full attack, though to try, and by my last flurry I was like 50' instead of 60 (yippee!!!), but the GM was rotf for having forgot about how BAD an option it was given range limitations. Hell - we all were.
No FREAKIN' WAY it's every a *good* option at all, IMO. If you're close enough to make the range penalties not matter - w/your crazy monk speed, you're *also* close enough to run up and standard attack while using a Stunning Fist to freakin' HAMMER the damn target senseless and let your buddies use that round to rock 'em and sock 'em while it's trying to figure out WTF happened (ie: init or not, you just MADE the thing lose dex bonus and pick up an extra -2 AC on top of it. This'll last for right up until BEFORE your next initiative, too).
Now, after 2 rounds of "OMG - what's the point?? I can't hit, and if I do, the damage's insulting." I figured that the long-shot jump couldn't *possibly* be worse than another round of whiffs w/4 MAX damage IF I land a hit. So I make the jump check, and it's good. I was able to run, jump, strike (melee), used a stunning fist, and stunned the damn thing RIGHT THERE! It freakin' falls down, weak defenses and everyone finished it off.
So I'm sitting there looking at the shuriken on my page and wondering WTF I bothered with them for when I could have just run up and used my standard to mess up the damn thing in the first place rather than trying to use shuriken.
That all said, I'm picking up Ki Blast with my VERY next feat and then I'll have some reliable damage for *at range* especially since his Wis bonus is like a +8, so 3d6+8 vs. 1d2+2 ... even in a flurry, I'll stick to my "HA-DO-KEN!!!!"
|
|
PB+ Deadly aim add up to +5 from two feats alone. While precise shot is nice I am personally not sure it is really necessary, there are usually some enemies standing off to the sidelines that could use a nailing or two.
As for the whole feat investment thing, yeah that comes with it. But I see it as a far better investment in something like toughness or dodge. Almost all of the desirable monk feats can be easily picked up with the monk bonus feats.
And in my opinion, spending anywhere from 2-4 feats on becoming a nuker from range (That can be done as long as you have shuriken on you) is more cost effective than spending a single feat that would let you do a single unreliable attack at ranged that costs the vital resource of Ki points.
Level 1- Point blank shot
Level 3- Deadly aim
Level 5- Far shot
Level 7- Precise shot(Again I said iffy)
Level 10-Idk wtf cheese?
And this is assuming you DON'T pick human, in which case yo pick up far shot at level one and have have whatever cheese feats you want to have at level 7 and 10. Could you have gotten spring attack by this time? Yeah, but is requires the same amount of feats to get and doesn't boost your DPR in any way.
I just don't like the common thread that monks are only about running up to an enemy and standing still to full attack unarmed every turn until it dies. Chalk it up to playstyle I guess, but this accomplishes the goal of diversifying the portfolio of a monk.
You've only got +2 strength? No wonder it was a bad option. I wonder how you actually built your monk.
Intuitive Strike from BoED I think (maybe CD, too). It allows me to add wis to all attacks "to hit" instead of str. My wis is through the roof (like 28 or something), so it's good on striking, good on wis saves, and good on AC.
Beyond this (most importantly) my guy's "stunning fist" is freakin' CRAZY-tough because I have such a high wis and have invested most heavily into the Wis ability. His hand damage, while only netting a +2 is good as well since he's got Imp. Natural Attack on, and a belt of monks' strength.
Beyond this, he's got Fiery Fist and can burn a SF use to add another +1d6 fire damage all attacks for the round (AoO's as well if any).
He does *fine* on dealing melee damage and he KNOCKS THE SNOT out of anyone he uses SF on.
He's built, specifically, to NOT be a freakin' "Bolo Young" clone of a monk. He's a spiritual, deep centered kind of guy (high wis), not a walking brick-house that *dabbles* in spirituality. He'll stun ya' six ways to sunday because he's an expert on pressure points and ki-flow in the body, etc.
I just don't like the common thread that monks are only about running up to an enemy and standing still to full attack unarmed every turn until it dies. Chalk it up to playstyle I guess, but this accomplishes the goal of diversifying the portfolio of a monk.
I'm not a fan of that either ... which is why I'm investing in Ki Blast since the mechanics of shuriken suck.
{Do note: I'm working on some house rules to make thrown weapons in general NOT suck so much, so shuriken will still be worse than Ki Blast, but at least a better option until you get it.}
|
The only suggestion I think I'd ever suggest to change is to add a class feature that allowed the monk to use shuriken as if they have the Far Shot feat.
It fits into the flavour of Monks being highly skilled in their use. You always see them being thrown much further than 10ft in all the movies.
irl shurikens accuracy does drop significantly after 10-15 feet. or at least thats my personal experience
I'm amazed at the in depth responses on this thread in regards to the OP's question about Shurikens... oh wait. Ki Blast? >.>
I'm amazed at the in depth responses on this thread in regards to the OP's question about Shurikens... oh wait. Ki Blast? >.>
that ... is strangely antagonistic, isn't it?
Hey - I'm all for it in PF, though. Even proposed some relevent tweaks for using Ki.
Hadouken!
Hadouken!
Hadouken!
Hadouken!
Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about, baby!!!
I now have this idea for a shuriken enchantment that transforms the thrown shuriken into force effects;)
There was a feat called 'Ringing the Bell' which allowed an unarmed attack at range, probably better than Ki Blast ...
I'm amazed at the in depth responses on this thread in regards to the OP's question about Shurikens... oh wait. Ki Blast? >.>that ... is strangely antagonistic, isn't it?
Wasn't my intention, sorry... :3
I just wanted to see less talk about shuriken and more about Kamehameha stuff, which is much more interesting imo, despite it not really fitting into the high fantasy setting. Then again, do monks really fit in the first place?
I now have this idea for a shuriken enchantment that transforms the thrown shuriken into force effects;)its a +2 enhancement called force in MiC
Forgot about that. Now I'll have to make a better version. If we all want Hadou Ken, well, I also want Shinkuu Hadou Ken!
Forgot about that. Now I'll have to make a better version. If we all want Hadou Ken, well, I also want Shinkuu Hadou Ken!I now have this idea for a shuriken enchantment that transforms the thrown shuriken into force effects;)its a +2 enhancement called force in MiC
Looks like a feat chain to me.
which is the "shinkuu" again?
I'm backing the "feat chain" suggestion, though.
:-D
which is the "shinkuu" again?
I'm backing the "feat chain" suggestion, though.
:-D
Super Fireball, of course. Found in the Street Fighter Alpha games as well as the VS. games. Lots of fun to combo people into the air and hit them with it. Even more fun to knock them down and blast them off the ground and across the screen with it. Ultimate fun: Ken + Ryu in Marvel vs. Street Fighter = Double Shinkuu Hadouken.
Not that I would ever do such evil things in an RPG, of course not....
Haha! you know what, while not "super" fireball, of course, but I think it'd be hella' fun to make some sort of upper level feat to mimic the Akuma aerial super where he's tossing like hundreds of fireballs down.
Maybe something like instead of generating a single ki-blast as a move action, generate several as a free action, and then let 'em rip like a Full Attack action (all ranged touch attacks, though).
Yeah ... that *could* be a lot of fun, honestly. Almost on some "air bender" trip, too ... just taking out a LOT of people at a range w/the "spiritual force" being projected.
Or, you know, take levels in a spell-casting class that can throw fireballs maybe? Just a suggestion ...
Or, you know, take levels in a spell-casting class that can throw fireballs maybe? Just a suggestion ...
Screw that!!
There's no "spells" in Street Fighter, monk-fu! It's just ki-blast city!!
"Ha-do-ken!!"
*assumes the pose of gathering the ki-energy into the familiar ball shape*
|
|
Haha! you know what, while not "super" fireball, of course, but I think it'd be hella' fun to make some sort of upper level feat to mimic the Akuma aerial super where he's tossing like hundreds of fireballs down.
lol, i just gave a monk in my game gloves similar to that.
they give +d6 fire damage on unarmed strikes, or can be used to lob d6 orbs of fire at will (so the monk can FOB d6 fire balls at 120 ft range).
based loosely on the item http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Castlevania#Fist_of_the_Tulkus
i made it a weapon of legacy type item (the enhancement to hit and damage will add to the fire's hit damage too)
Or, you know, take levels in a spell-casting class that can throw fireballs maybe? Just a suggestion ...Screw that!!
There's no "spells" in Street Fighter, monk-fu! It's just ki-blast city!!
"Ha-do-ken!!"
*assumes the pose of gathering the ki-energy into the familiar ball shape*
<cough!>Psionics<cough!>
Haha! you know what, while not "super" fireball, of course, but I think it'd be hella' fun to make some sort of upper level feat to mimic the Akuma aerial super where he's tossing like hundreds of fireballs down.
Maybe something like instead of generating a single ki-blast as a move action, generate several as a free action, and then let 'em rip like a Full Attack action (all ranged touch attacks, though).
Yeah ... that *could* be a lot of fun, honestly. Almost on some "air bender" trip, too ... just taking out a LOT of people at a range w/the "spiritual force" being projected.
Ah yes, I remember that move. Tenma go Zankuu I believe? Fun if done at low altitudes on someone you just knocked prone. Nothing says "massage" like one of those....
And the gloves, NV, are something I've heard of before, in 2E I think, as an item our GM made up for fun. Or maybe it was me?
Hmm ... more I think of this, the more I like it.
The "super" fireball is already covered under that Ki-burn option I mentioned. Basically, it's just a fireball that hits and hurts WAY more. So ... burn the ki point and it goes from 3d6+wis mod to 3d6+1/2 monk level d6's + wis mod for damage - still the single ki-blast, though.
For the "many blasts" thing, I'm thinking that the free action is fine for generating them, and then letting them FoB to release is also fine. Damage, though ... maybe drop to 2d6+wis mod instead? Or maybe even 1d6+wis mod ... and then adding ki-burn, say 2d6 + 1/2 monk level d6's to be spread amongst the different ki-blasts as you see fit.
So, top level monk (going w/2d6+wis as base) would/could flurry for say 7 shots and burn a ki point to add 10d6 however he wants to split it amongst all of his ki-blasts. It's still much less than his unarmed hand damage, and unenhanced (like say a monk's belt type of effect).
Just on a split, adding +1 more d6 to all would be 3d6+wis for all (like the base ki-blast itself, but with multiple hits), and still leave another 3d to assign - maybe make the first one a 5d6+wis blast and the next a 4d6, leaving the others as 3d6.
It's also touch attacks ...
Hmm ... can't really burn more than just one "stunning fist" use on any given round, though (w/out rapid stunning anyway from CW). Maybe some intermediary feat needs to be factored in as well to get to this super-rain-of-ki blasts can be selected?
So, you need the Ki Blast line of feats (fiery fist, etc), rapid stunning, some improved version of rapid stunning, and THEN you can get this super-fireblast thing.
Limiting factors: works best w/ki-burn (limited resources), and WILL burn 1 stunning fist use/ki-blast when used. So, at top level, that's 7 uses all gone in one round ... I can think of *better* ways to make use of the SF myself, but if needed, it's nice to have that option for ranged attacks there for 'em, IMO.
*maybe on a slightly less limiting pricing* 1 stunning fist use can generate up to 2 ki-blasts to be used (ie: still to get the full 7 FoB strikes you'd need to burn 4 uses vs. the 7). It's a *little* bit more forgiving as there really aren't that many resources for monks in the first place. I'm kind of partial to the 2:1 breakdown, though.
Here's an option I thought up that makes it a bit more flexible, can allow ninjas to use it, and not overpowered
Ki Blast
Requirements: Con 13, Wis 13, Ki Pool
Effect: A character with this feat may spend one point of Ki as a move action to form a ball of force energy in their hand. They may make a melee touch attack with this ball of energy and if it connects it deals 3d6+wis modifier force damage, this cannot be part of a normal attack as it requires concentration to use the energy as a weapon. If the character has either the stunning fist or elemental fist feat they may spend one use of stunning fist or elemental fist (player’s choice) to throw the ball as a standard action as a ranged touch attack that deals 3d6+wis modifier force damage against one target within 60 feet.
If the ball of force is not used for a melee or ranged touch attack it dissipates at the end of the turn and the Ki is wasted.
isn't this what ki arrow is for?
But Can't the Qinggong Monk basically do all of this with Mighty fistr of the earth as well? it has a similar range to a hadouken, does unarmed strike damage, counts as a ki strike, and only costs one ki point to use. and if the ki cost is too high, you can always take the extra ki feat.
Mighty fist of the earth and Ki Arrow don't do what I believe this feat is meant to be used for.
There are lots of ways that a Monk can attack at a range so that's not what the Ki blast is for (I call it Ki Channeling). Ki Blast is meant to be a Force attack, in other words a way to attack incorporeal creatures.
The only official item I could find that would let a monk attack incorporeal creatures without a miss chance are the Spiritualist rings (not to mention I don't know the ruling on using those for unarms strikes) so this gives a monk a melee or ranged touch force attack so they can attack incorporeal creatures without a miss chance. Yes the ki strike makes their attack magic but it still has a 50% miss chance.
Also Ki Arrow and Mighty Fist of the Earth are spells, this ability is so a pure monk can use this attack without needing to take levels in another class. If they were going to take levels in a spellcasting class they could just take magic missile.
Also Ki Arrow and Mighty Fist of the Earth are spells, this ability is so a pure monk can use this attack without needing to take levels in another class. If they were going to take levels in a spellcasting class they could just take magic missile.
um qinggong...
I would have supported this endeavor a bit more had Pummeling Style not been created.
Pummeling Style + Blood Crow Strike = Kamehame-Hadouken from 110+ Feat away in a more spectacular way, sadly, than Ki Blast from 3.5 ever did.
As it stands a Sacred Fist gets natural access to the blast (and can cast it either with Spell Perfection or a Quicken Metamagic Rod), and the Qinggong Monk in home games can take Quicken Spell-Like Ability at 17th level to be able to burn 2 Ki Points to swift-cast Blood Crow Strike.
Really late to this, but I would use something like below as a home-brew feat to give a similar access. Let me know what you think and if it could use some tweaking. I just put it together and, while it wouldn't be overpowered, it would grant monks a couple of things. Namely, force damage fairly early and a ranged attack that works seamlessly with their class. It is also a feat that others could take, although the benefit would be lesser.
You gain the power to shape your ki into ranged attacks.
Prerequisites: Ki pool, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: While you have at least 1 ki point in your ki pool, as a standard action, you can make a ranged touch attack against any foe within 50 feet. This attack deals force damage equal to your unarmed strike. Your Wisdom modifier is applied on damage rolls as bonus damage and is multiplied on a critical hit.
By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can designate one of your unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows as an Aurablast. This attack is a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. Bonus damage from your Strength modifier is not applied to this attack and your Wisdom modifier bonus damage is not applied when making a flurry of blows.
Any attack bonus that is normally applied to your unarmed strike is also applied to this ability’s ranged touch attack except your Strength modifier.
This is a supernatural ability.