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Why do people use Fantasy Grounds, when Maptools is free? I just don't get it. Is Fantasy Grounds superior in some way?
Ken
Honestly? It's prettier and I like the Adventure "Design" and layout details when creating a GM adventure in FG2 over Maptools.
In terms of ease of use, I think FG2 is superior.
In terms of features and capabilities, it offers a little less in some ways - (a lot less in others, especially graphics creations) -- and a little more in still others.
Practically speaking, the publisher of FG2 may want a license to make and sell PF Adventures or other PF Rules using protected content as a precondition to completing work on a Pathfinder rules set. (Or not, I have absolutely no information on this whatsoever.)
I agree with this and the rest of your post. My issue was more with certain other posts that were almost making it seem as there was nothing that could be done Fantasy Grounds without a license to use Paizo Intellectual Property.
Well, it would be kind of silly for them to use the ruleset, but not call it Pathfinder. In order to use the word "Pathfinder" to describe the Pathfinder rules, they would need Paizo's permission. The Pathfinder name is a trademark.
Right and that would be a benefit from the license, but other products have existed without saying Dungeons & Dragons.
Just a note, I have nothing against Fantasy Grounds and would be happy to see them get the license. My reaction to this was just more because I perceived a number of posts on the thread (not from Eric Tillemans) that seemed to be close to equating Paizo with schoolyard bully if they don't hand over a license to do all the adventures or describing this decision as Paizo using their sandbox as a bathroom.
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Well, looking more closely at the terms of Paizo's own compatibility license, it does not permit use in computer products (other than websites), so deciding to rely/use that license does not appear to be open either.
Whatever the case, it is regrettable that there is no FG2, easy to use and install, direct support for Pathfinder. There was some indication at some point that there was hope that this might be remedied in the future. I hope that it is.
Hero Lab is a windows only application, yet it is fully supported while Fantasy Grounds is not - why is that?
You cannot compare them. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are not one and the same thing. Hero Lab is a character creation/design application while Fantasy Grounds is a complete VTT gaming application. It is probably much easier for Paizo to support Hero Lab as they only need to worry about the classes and races being properly supported. Providing full support to a VTT would be far more complicated and might require alot more work.
Personally speaking, the support to Hero Lab is advantageous to me as I have bought Hero Lab and D20Pro (a VTT gaming application like FG). Hero Lab and D20Pro support each other which means I can load up Hero Lab Pathfinder character files I have created into D20Pro for the Rise of the Runelords campaign I am currently running.
I think Paizo have already made helpful steps in the right direction by allowing their Adventure Paths and Rulebooks to be bought online as PDFs. This certainly aids my online gaming experience with my friends. Furthermore, the forums are well supported by Pathfinder fans who have created maps and images for the Adventure Path quests that I can use in D20Pro in conjunction with the pdf's I have already bought from Pathfinder.
In saying all this, I agree that it would be nice if Paizo eventually provides official full support to the most commonly used VTT gaming applications such as Fantasy Grounds, D20Pro and Maptools. The VTT gaming community is a community that continues to grow and it is a market that shouldn't be ignored.
I understand why the adventures are unavailable as they are just loaded with material that is not OGC, but my question is why the ruleset needs Paizo's permission.Well, it would be kind of silly for them to use the ruleset, but not call it Pathfinder. In order to use the word "Pathfinder" to describe the Pathfinder rules, they would need Paizo's permission. The Pathfinder name is a trademark.
They support D&D, don't they? Did Wizards of the Coast give them permission to use the term "D&D" or do they use some other term?
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Hero Lab is a windows only application, yet it is fully supported while Fantasy Grounds is not - why is that?You cannot compare them. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are not one and the same thing. Hero Lab is a character creation/design application while Fantasy Grounds is a complete VTT gaming application. It is probably much easier for Paizo to support Hero Lab as they only need to worry about the classes and races being properly supported. Providing full support to a VTT would be far more complicated and might require alot more work.
Personally speaking, the support to Hero Lab is advantageous to me as I have bought Hero Lab and D20Pro (a VTT gaming application like FG). Hero Lab and D20Pro support each other which means I can load up Hero Lab Pathfinder character files I have created into D20Pro for the Rise of the Runelords campaign I am currently running.
I think Paizo have already made helpful steps in the right direction by allowing their Adventure Paths and Rulebooks to be bought online as PDFs. This certainly aids my online gaming experience with my friends. Furthermore, the forums are well supported by Pathfinder fans who have created maps and images for the Adventure Path quests that I can use in D20Pro in conjunction with the pdf's I have already bought from Pathfinder.
In saying all this, I agree that it would be nice if Paizo eventually provides official full support to the most commonly used VTT gaming applications such as Fantasy Grounds, D20Pro and Maptools. The VTT gaming community is a community that continues to grow and it is a market that shouldn't be ignored.
Same, I use D20pro and Herolab and it's a beautiful marriage so far, there is a post in their forums stating that for GenCon they will be releasing a official Pathfinder rulest. Here is a post in which the lead developer states Pathfinder will have official support at Gencon. Now I do not know what they mean by "official" support but it should be nice none the less.
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Hero Lab is a windows only application, yet it is fully supported while Fantasy Grounds is not - why is that?You cannot compare them. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are not one and the same thing. Hero Lab is a character creation/design application while Fantasy Grounds is a complete VTT gaming application. It is probably much easier for Paizo to support Hero Lab as they only need to worry about the classes and races being properly supported. Providing full support to a VTT would be far more complicated and might require alot more work.
There is no "support" being provided by Paizo. The support is provided by the software company; the license (if there is one) is provided by Paizo.
As for not comparing them... I'd say comparing FG2 and D20Pro is about as direct a comparison as it gets. I just wish D20Pro compared more favorably to FG2.
Ah well. We'll see.
There is no "support" being provided by Paizo. The support is provided by the software company; the license (if there is one) is provided by Paizo.
As for not comparing them... I'd say comparing FG2 and D20Pro is about as direct a comparison as it gets. I just wish D20Pro compared more favorably to FG2.
Yes, comparing FG2 and D20Pro is perfectly logical. However, a comparison between Hero Lab and FG2 should not be made.
I saw a demo for FG2 and it looked really good. Unfortunately, it was just a tad outside what I wanted to pay. D20Pro seems to do the job for me. I think both are good value for the right gamer as I like the concept of free updates with a once only upfront cost. Incidently, why do you like FG2 more?
BTW, if you are one of the guys that do the new Pathfinder podcast, you're doing a great job - don't stop. Both Pathfinder podcasts that now exist are wonderful and they complement each other well.
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BTW, if you are one of the guys that do the new Pathfinder podcast, you're doing a great job - don't stop. Both Pathfinder podcasts that now exist are wonderful and they complement each other well.
Thanks for the kind words. We're putting the next episode of the podcast together this weekend which wil be released later in the week (Wed July 6th/Thurs 7th). Amongst other segments, Episode #03 will have an interview with Joshua Frost, author of City of Golden Death.
I would buy Pathfinder products if they were available on Fantasy Grounds II. So would others. I say bring it on. It's just good business. ;)
I would buy Pathfinder products if they were available on Fantasy Grounds II. So would others. I say bring it on. It's just good business. ;)
Are there any D&D (3.5E or 4E) products available on Fantasy Grounds II?
You cannot compare them. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are not one and the same thing. Hero Lab is a character creation/design application while Fantasy Grounds is a complete VTT gaming application.
Which is so far away from the point made as to not even be within sight of it.
Why do people use Fantasy Grounds, when Maptools is free? I just don't get it. Is Fantasy Grounds superior in some way?
Ken
Because all the RPTools are crazy user unfriendly?
I would buy Pathfinder products if they were available on Fantasy Grounds II. So would others. I say bring it on. It's just good business. ;)Are there any D&D (3.5E or 4E) products available on Fantasy Grounds II?
Yes. The program comes with a 3.5 ruleset and a pretty comprehensive 4E ruleset built in. Plus, there is a 3rd party 4E parser that you can use to scan in information from just about any 4E book. But, my players don't like 4E. They like Pathfinder. C'est la vie.
Yes. The program comes with a 3.5 ruleset and a pretty comprehensive 4E ruleset built in. Plus, there is a 3rd party 4E parser that you can use to scan in information from just about any 4E book. But, my players don't like 4E. They like Pathfinder. C'est la vie.I would buy Pathfinder products if they were available on Fantasy Grounds II. So would others. I say bring it on. It's just good business. ;)Are there any D&D (3.5E or 4E) products available on Fantasy Grounds II?
No, what I mean is: Does Wizards of the Coast publish products for Fantasy Grounds II? If not, why would Paizo? And if so, colour me surprised!
I guess I'm still not getting why Paizo needs to get personally involved with Fantasy Grounds but Wizards of the Coast doesn't.
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No, what I mean is: Does Wizards of the Coast publish products for Fantasy Grounds II? If not, why would Paizo? And if so, colour me surprised!
I guess I'm still not getting why Paizo needs to get personally involved with Fantasy Grounds but Wizards of the Coast doesn't.
No, WotC/Hasbro does not. Originally they were in the process of producing their own VTT, which is currently still in Vaperware status, last I checked. (Then again, it's been a year since I checked). They were sent a Cease and Desist letter from Fantasy Grounds for their use of imagery... Really ironic, considering TSR/WotC's legal history.
Actually, what others (and myself) are wanting is not for Paizo to produce products for FGII, but allow Fantasy Grounds to produce conversions of adventures, adventure paths, and source materials of their Pathfinder books for use within Fantasy Grounds that can be sold.
I can take the PDFs I have the the Legacy of Fire and convert them for use to play on FG myself, but I'd happily pay for the simplicity of not having to.
I can code the XML and convert the Bestiary so I can open it as a book within FG II, but I don't really want to spend the several months it would take to do so (unless FG contracts me to do it for them to resell on their website, passing a bulk of the profit to Paizo, keeping some for themselves and a bit to me for my time). Hence the need for a Pathfinder license in order for FG to produce Pathfinder products.
As for the ruleset itself, I think there is enough grey area that they COULD create the Ruleset under the OGL and publish it. However, what is their incentive for taking the time to do so, when they are under license to produce Savage Worlds, Castles & Crusades, etc, etc... all of which generate them profit for spending the time to do so?
So, basically, what we're looking for is Paizo to tell FG "Yeah, you can send us the bulk of the money you make on converting and selling our IP."
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Why do people use Fantasy Grounds, when Maptools is free? I just don't get it. Is Fantasy Grounds superior in some way?
Ken
For some things, yes. For others, no. Feature by feature breakdown is elsewhere on the web.
It pretty much boils down to your gaming style and what you like more.
If combat is more your thing, Maptools is totally the way to go. For that matter, if you are on a budget and actually enjoy writing macro's, Maptools is the way to go.
Fantasy Grounds has it beat in the "Look & Feel" department for me... and I still love the rolling dice. Many feel its character sheet implementation is better, as well.
Actually, what others (and myself) are wanting is not for Paizo to produce products for FGII, but allow Fantasy Grounds to produce conversions of adventures, adventure paths, and source materials of their Pathfinder books for use within Fantasy Grounds that can be sold.
What other companies do this (i.e. allow Fantasy Grounds to convert their products)? Just curious.
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Actually, what others (and myself) are wanting is not for Paizo to produce products for FGII, but allow Fantasy Grounds to produce conversions of adventures, adventure paths, and source materials of their Pathfinder books for use within Fantasy Grounds that can be sold.What other companies do this (i.e. allow Fantasy Grounds to convert their products)? Just curious.
On a licensed basis? In no particular order:
Pinnacle Entertainment Group (Savage Worlds)Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu / Basic Roleplaying System)
Adam Winsor (Iron Heroes)
Malhavoc Press (Arcana Evolved)
Troll Lord Games (Castles & Crusades)
Iron Crown Enterprises (Rolemaster Classic)
There's also independents who've produced adventures and settings that have signed on to either convert themselves or have their material converted to FG II.
There's also several other fan-produced rulesets and extensions that allow other games to be played.
As for the adventures being produced, you can check out the Tavern Forum where the owner of FG lists the conversions currently in process (or being attempted)
Actually, what others (and myself) are wanting is not for Paizo to produce products for FGII, but allow Fantasy Grounds to produce conversions of adventures, adventure paths, and source materials of their Pathfinder books for use within Fantasy Grounds that can be sold.What other companies do this (i.e. allow Fantasy Grounds to convert their products)? Just curious.On a licensed basis? In no particular order:
Pinnacle Entertainment Group (Savage Worlds)
Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu / Basic Roleplaying System)
Adam Winsor (Iron Heroes)
Malhavoc Press (Arcana Evolved)
Troll Lord Games (Castles & Crusades)
Iron Crown Enterprises (Rolemaster Classic)There's also independents who've produced adventures and settings that have signed on to either convert themselves or have their material converted to FG II.
There's also several other fan-produced rulesets and extensions that allow other games to be played.
As for the adventures being produced, you can check out the Tavern Forum where the owner of FG lists the conversions currently in process (or being attempted)
Cool!! Where can I find a list of Malhavoc Press adventures for sale, for instance?
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Cool!! Where can I find a list of Malhavoc Press adventures for sale, for instance?
Off the Store link on their website. A direct link is Here
There's the ruleset for $12, 2 supplements at $8 each and 2 adventures by Monte Cook for $3 and $2.50|
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I've been following this topic on various boards and personally my preference is FGII over D20pro. In my book, the interface just suits me better and has much more of the feel of real table top elements. I hope the folks at Paizo take their time to make this decision and not make an exclusive deal but rather stay open to supporting all the major tools out there. That would stay more consistent to what seems to be the company philosophy around open content.
Just run the 3.5 set with some tweaks. Most of these VTT are so severely lacking you have to house-rule a lot of stuff anyway.
If FG has a problem with Paizo tell them to create a mac version.
although I agree it is dumb for Paizo not to support them. Of course I don't know if Apple is paying them to not do so.
That would be highly doubtful, and could possibly even be illegal. I'm quite sure Apple is not paying Paizo to choose only a developer who is supporting the Mac platform.
They're making that mistake on their own (sorry, Paizo, but it's true. I still love you guys).
LOL, how would it be illegal or even doubtful? It's called an exclusive, like a game coming only to Playstation 3 or XBox 360.
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Just run the 3.5 set with some tweaks. Most of these VTT are so severely lacking you have to house-rule a lot of stuff anyway.
Actually, it's even easier than that. Run the D20_JPG ruleset with the Pathfinder extensions. (links to both can be found on the message boards.)
If FG has a problem with Paizo tell them to create a mac version.although I agree it is dumb for Paizo not to support them. Of course I don't know if Apple is paying them to not do so.
Can't be done, as the program is based in DirectX. On the other hand, there's been many reports on the board that it works in an emulator.
Chief Technical Officer
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Whoa there.
Somehow this thread had failed to attract my attention until now, and I sure wish that weren't the case, because it's loaded with misinformation.
Now, I can't reveal a lot about specific ongoing confidential discussions, but I can provide some general information.
First of all, our *long-term* goals with respect to tools such as character generators and virtual tabletops do indeed involve a high degree of platform agnosticism (not just a desire for Mac OS support). We want to encourage developers to make great tools that work well for you whether you've chosen to use them on Windows, Mac, Linux, or a mobile device. And we have a lot of ideas about how we can deliver great content to users of those tools, once those tools have evolved to the point where they can support our ideas. We also know that it's going to take a while to get there.
In the meantime, we are willing to discuss *nonexclusive* licenses that will allow the makers of current electronic tools to officially support the Pathfinder RPG.
Now, there are clearly some types of licensing requests that are easy to say yes to, and there are also some things we're not prepared to give away or license out at this time, but I'm confident that we could find ways for most professional software publishers to provide some level of official Pathfinder RPG support for their tools.
Whoa there.
Somehow this thread had failed to attract my attention until now, and I sure wish that weren't the case, because it's loaded with misinformation.
Now, I can't reveal a lot about specific ongoing confidential discussions, but I can provide some general information.
First of all, our *long-term* goals with respect to tools such as character generators and virtual tabletops do indeed involve a high degree of platform agnosticism (not just a desire for Mac OS support). We want to encourage developers to make great tools that work well for you whether you've chosen to use them on Windows, Mac, Linux, or a mobile device. And we have a lot of ideas about how we can deliver great content to users of those tools, once those tools have evolved to the point where they can support our ideas. We also know that it's going to take a while to get there.
In the meantime, we are willing to discuss *nonexclusive* licenses that will allow the makers of current electronic tools to officially support the Pathfinder RPG.
Now, there are clearly some types of licensing requests that are easy to say yes to, and there are also some things we're not prepared to give away or license out at this time, but I'm confident that we could find ways for most professional software publishers to provide some level of official Pathfinder RPG support for their tools.
Thanks Vic; I'm very glad to hear that. Like you, I'm also a strong advocate of cross-platform development, but being willing to discuss non-exclusive rights seems like a great way to go in the meantime.
Once again, you guys show that you get it when it comes to technology and digital rights. Unlike some other parties who will go unnamed. :)
Why not make it available to the tools that are made now? We hold out for Mac/cell phone all cross gaming platforms? I am sure Paizo has lawyers that can write something up that says it isn't Fantasy Ground specific and can be shared to Mac/Cell phone users when the time arises. Just doesn't make sense why you would limit your player base for it. There is a huge demand for it in the online rpg world. They are only hurting themselves in my opinion. I bought Fantasy Grounds in hopes of playing Pathfinder with a group of friends back in the days of yor. Now it looks like I have to make a template myself and that will take countless hrs.
Why not make it available to the tools that are made now? We hold out for Mac/cell phone all cross gaming platforms? I am sure Paizo has lawyers that can write something up that says it isn't Fantasy Ground specific and can be shared to Mac/Cell phone users when the time arises. Just doesn't make sense why you would limit your player base for it. There is a huge demand for it in the online rpg world. They are only hurting themselves in my opinion. I bought Fantasy Grounds in hopes of playing Pathfinder with a group of friends back in the days of yor. Now it looks like I have to make a template myself and that will take countless hrs.
There is already an extension available for the d20_JPG ruleset so you won't have to spend countless of hours to play Pathfinder through FG. If you're fine with how d20_JPG already is (w/o the extension), there aren't that many changes that needs to be done to make it more Pathfinder friendly. Mainly changing the way skills work was the most tricky one, but it can easily be exported from the extension too.
The developers also stated they would look into a PF compatible version when the 3.5 ruleset gets updated.
Excuse me?The mac users have better things to do with their time than play games anyway.
Like mow lawns for a new pc.
Heheheheh
Time to watch Holes again.
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Very serious gamers whose opinion I take very seriously on these matters have said Fantasy Grounds is the way to go for Virtual Table Tops. These are mostly guys in the military playing overseas. They know the difference between bad and awesome.
If I get into a virtual table top, it will be Fantasy Grounds.
I would prefer to play Pathfinder on Fantasy Grounds. But if it is not supported, I will probably just look for Savage Worlds games. While I do not believe it is anywhere near as good as Pathfinder, it beats the crap out of anything else.
give them the liscence. Make money. The mac users have better things to do with their time than play games anyway.
Like mow lawns for a new pc.
Last week Fantasy Grounds Released version 2.8 ( a free update) the system now has quite good pathfinder support. It is implemented as a variation of there newly updated D&D 3.5 core rules (you simply select 3.5 when creating a campaign, and then when it starts you get an option of core 3.5 or pathfinder variant).
There had been a fan made pathfinder mod that my group had been using for the last year, the new one is quite a bit better. The character sheet is great and so is the rule set implementation.
I really highly recommend pathfinder on Fantasy Grounds 2 now (An no, I am not affiliated with them, just a happy customer)
I don't quite get why a company thinks it needs official Pathfinder support when the content is all OGL.
I don't quite get why a company thinks it needs official Pathfinder support when the content is all OGL.
As noted above, not all content is OGL. For instance, the plots, art, cartography etc. in the various Adventure Path volumes are not Open Content.
I don't quite get why a company thinks it needs official Pathfinder support when the content is all OGL.As noted above, not all content is OGL. For instance, the plots, art, cartography etc. in the various Adventure Path volumes are not Open Content.
Fair enough, but all the rules and monsters are, so I can't see this as being all that big a deal.
As someone from HeroLab mentioned early in the thread, they don't yet have official Pathfinder sanction, but yet all the rules for character creation are available in the system, and are there well before PCGen gets around to offering new stuff.
This seems to be a tempest in a teapot.