I keep seeing this word. What does it mean?
Also, is there a site somewhere that has a glossary for obscure gaming terms?
thanks.
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It means a few things. It literally means a Githyanki (or Githzari I can't remember which, they are a race) special training to be both Wizards and Fighters at the same time. In older editions, this was harder to come by properly and much more restricted.
Most of the time when people talk about a Gish/Gith, they are talking about a character build that can do both (arcane) spellcasting and melee combat effectively. Most prefer near full BaB to get at least 3 attacks a round, ability to wear the best armor without risking spell failure, and as many spellcasting levels as possible, (pth level Wizard spells).
Additionally, there is the "divine" Gish, which is less commonly used, but specifically referes to Divine Spellcasters (Cleric/Druid) that are very combat orientated (already having armor and shield, no spell failure).
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A large part of the problem is there is a term which comes from one place (Becket mentions above), but there are a dozen different modern ideas about what one is.
Essentially, it's an arcane spellcaster who uses weapons a lot. Beyond that it's anyone's guess because there are a hundred different ideas out there about what that should be.
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As for a glossary, I am sure there is, but it is usually better to just ask when you see something come up.
A few things off the top of my head
Godzilla/Codzilla (can mean slightly different things) are Divine casters that are so optimized/broken that they can overshadow all the other players classes. There are two major factors for this, DMM (Divine Metamagic, a feat that allowed clerics to spend Turning uses for Metamagic levels, most specifically Persistant Spell, which made some buffs last 24hrs), and a combination of stuff that could make a cleric kill a lot of stuff with no save (Holy Word + Prayer Beads + this and that).
TWF Two Weapon Fighting style character
THF a character using a weapon in two hands
Sword and Board a style of play where a character has a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, or sometimes where the character focuses on fighting with both the sheild and the weapon
Blaster usually a Wizard or Sorcerer, but specifically one that uses a lot of area direct damage spells. Some Clerics/Druids can also pull this off, but it is typically a (poor choice) Wizard or Sorcerer
CC Crowd Control, a (spellcaster) playstyle that involves spells that seperate enemies from each other, alter the terrain advantagiously, or sometimes enchant targets to make fights much easier over all. Various "Wall" spells, Web, Entangle, and the like are common
RAW Rules as Written, literal/specific rules as the are in the book (or SRD System Reference Document, a free open content rules)
RAI Rules as Intended, when a rule doesn't give a specific answer to a question clearly, it means using what the rule seems to imply, or through a similar example
PHB/DMG/MM/PF Players Handbook/Dungeon Master's Guide/Monster Manual (usually followed by a #)/PathFinder
APG Advanced Players Guide
CD Complete Divine
CW Complete Warrior
CAv Complete Adventurer (sometimes different abbreviations)
CAr Copmplete Arcane (sometimes different abbreviations)
Lawful Stupid usually a Paladin, but can be anyone with the Lawful Good (LN) Alignment that acts in a way that is, well hard to discribe. It is usually an insult, but not always wrong or bad. Too Lawful and too Good. In all honestly, it is usually the Party and the dm that have the real problem by not expecting the character in question to stick to their beliefs as they should, or want to do something that a Paladin obviously would not stand for and want to worm their way around it by putting all the blame on the "Lawful Stupid" character. Other times, it might mean a character that uses their LG alignment as an excuse to derail a story, but this is usually much rarer.
Anything in particular?
I keep seeing this word. What does it mean?
Also, is there a site somewhere that has a glossary for obscure gaming terms?
thanks.
Unfortunately, most gish's Ive seen tend to be focused on getting all of the benefits of a fighter and a wizard with as few of the drawbacks as possible.
Its sort of a curse word among gamers as well (like beardy or munchkin).
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A gish is a gestalt fighter/wizard, usually played in a game where no other players or NPCs are allowed gestalt characters. They also suffer no chance of spell failure regardless of armor worn.
Anything less that this usually results in howls by the corresponding player that the DM and/or other posters on the forum are quashing his concept. Apparently this concept is to be a ridiculous munchkin.
Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
To the OP, most of the time when people say gish now adays they are talking about some character that combines magic and martial abilities. There are lots of views on the subject as to what's appropriate, dont let these guys taint your views on it. It is actually possible to do it without being the wild overpowered suggestions they are pushing.
The term also has numerous non-gaming definitions, most NSFW, so be careful about using it around non-gamers.
The term also has numerous non-gaming definitions, most NSFW, so be careful about using it around non-gamers.
What.
Urban Dictionary. Don't say you weren't warned.
It's a subject which attracts a lot of threadcrapping and trolls, such as the following:
A gish is a gestalt fighter/wizard, usually played in a game where no other players or NPCs are allowed gestalt characters. They also suffer no chance of spell failure regardless of armor worn.
Anything less that this usually results in howls by the corresponding player that the DM and/or other posters on the forum are quashing his concept. Apparently this concept is to be a ridiculous munchkin.
More practically, it's a mixed martial / spellcasting class or character concept, usually but not always arcane spellcasting, and with varying levels of emphasis on either. Sometimes the concept is stretched a bit to mean any mix of a non-spellcasting concept with a spellcasting concept (such as a bard or rogue/spellcaster).
The name is a nonsense word. Originally, gish were a caste of multiclass githyanki fighter/wizards. (Not githzerai.) The name entered generalized use on the 3.5 WOTC CharOp boards, originally to refer to build which managed +16 BAB/17th level spellcasting, but later in a more and more generalized sense.
There ARE some good Gish ideas out there. I'm not saying its a bad idea at its core.
Just that most of what I've seen bandied about as a Gish seems to focus more on the "I want it all" scenario. I've just seen a lot more unbalanced Gish than I have playable ones.
I think the "bad" gish classes are the ones with no arcane armor penalty, d10 HP, Arcane spell progression like a Wizard, and Fighter BAB.
However, that being said, I think the TOS spellblade isn't too bad. And the Eldritch Knight is a Gish. I'd allow both of those in my campaigns. (Someone even bandied about the idea of a Ranger-type class that had arcane spells instead of divine...not too bad either).
But, at least around my groups, the TERM gish is another dirty word. "That's a Gish Concept" means pretty much "that's a Munchkin move". If someone talks about an idea (or even worse ..character) as being Gish, well, "Them's Fightin' Wurds."
Urban Dictionary. Don't say you weren't warned.
Not nearly as bad as I thought. But someone just had me look up blue waffle, so I might be immune to such things for the moment.
Urban Dictionary. Don't say you weren't warned.Not nearly as bad as I thought. But someone just had me look up blue waffle, so I might be immune to such things for the moment.
Yep. Blue Waffle is worse. Excuse me, I'll be offline for awhile. I need to scrub my eyes with bleach.
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Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A great deal of the time that people want a Gish, (unless I am misreading what yo are taking about somehow), that player does want to be a badass Fighter and Arcanist, but not have to worry about the downsides. I would imagice that it is much more about powergaming than concept most of the time.
Otherwise, there is the Bard, right?
Its sort of a curse word among gamers as well (like beardy or munchkin).
The funny thing is, I've only really seen it that way on this site. Most other sites I've been to have a much more neutral or positive view of it.
Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A great deal of the time that people want a Gish, (unless I am misreading what yo are taking about somehow), that player does want to be a badass Fighter and Arcanist, but not have to worry about the downsides. I would imagice that it is much more about powergaming than concept most of the time.
Otherwise, there is the Bard, right?
No, its more about concept than powergaming. Read the many Gish threads here and you will see most people wanting something on the bard power level with a modified spell list that is not enchantment/charm focused. Many people want to play a character who wades into melee surrounded by flames, unleashing an arcane furry against their foes. Replace the bard spell list with evocations, transmutations, and buffs and you will please most of the boards from what I can tell. Though many people hat the bardic song flavor wise.
I wish, I wish, I wish I were a gish...
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That is not at all my experience, on either these boards, other boards, or in game either.
I am not saying that such things do not exist, I am sure there are people that want to just the concept, and I also don't think they are a super minority, but I still think that the powergaming side, (even smetimes inadvertantly) is a much bigger crowd.
Thinking back to some threads about how James (I think, maybe Jason) commented that they had dsigned the PF Bard to be a Gish, or the many "Please make a PG Class [or Base Class]", or the many topics about the PF Elderitch Knight (and to a point Arcane Archer or Arcane Trickster), this is just not the impression I get at all about the discussion.
Rather, like a lot of Godzilla threads, Gish is basically a "bad word".
That is not at all my experience, on either these boards, other boards, or in game either.
I am not saying that such things do not exist, I am sure there are people that want to just the concept, and I also don't think they are a super minority, but I still think that the powergaming side, (even smetimes inadvertantly) is a much bigger crowd.
Thinking back to some threads about how James (I think, maybe Jason) commented that they had dsigned the PF Bard to be a Gish, or the many "Please make a PG Class [or Base Class]", or the many topics about the PF Elderitch Knight (and to a point Arcane Archer or Arcane Trickster), this is just not the impression I get at all about the discussion.
Rather, like a lot of Godzilla threads, Gish is basically a "bad word".
The many Gish threads I have read here pretty much all say that the bard chassy is good, but it: 1. has performance associated with it that people do not want and 2. Does not integrate spell casting with the fighting in any way. 3/4 BAB and 6th lvl spells is pretty good for most people.
As for Eldrich Knight, the only legitimate complaint I have seen is that from lvls 1-7, before you get into the prestige class, you are too fragile to perform the job you want to of front line fighter and are stuck as an almost pure caster.
I would hazard a guess that most people's idea of a gish, as used in this context, is something akin to Elric.
Personally, I rather like the idea of a warrior finding a weapon of staggering power, which awakens their lost arcane/aberrant/demonic/infernal/fae/destined heritage, and coming to a point where they can master the complexities of their sentient weapon with their arcane power, and command some portion of the magical heritage that was inborn.
The battle sorceror variant from the d20srd works fairly well in Pathfinder for this, although it is not, per se, core PF only.
Some people want something a little bit different. They want something like a bookish fighter, who has studied enough to gain some mastery of magic, but has not in turn neglected the practice needed to pick up a longsword, or halberd, and fight off a tribe of giants with it. This character is well read, reads and understands the arcane well, speaks many languages, but is also rough and tumble enough so that if there isn't a spell remembered for something, they can still manage a bar fight. I would hazard a guess that for many players, this is perhaps some mirroring, as IRL, you can study a martial art, and science, engineering, law, medicine, or any other fairly arcane subject, and still be able to carry some expertise in both fields.
For these people, what ends up happening is that for many levels of their characters progression, it appears that they have been letting their focus slip from their martial studies to be a wizard. They end up having to take off armor that they know how to use because they will have spells fail if they leave it on. They end up having to give up the use of a shield other than a buckler, because the rules which say they know how to use a shield tell them that haven't figured out how to hold bat guano or colored sand in their shield hand. And they end up losing "bar fights" when they don't use spells to give them enough of an advantage.
Rather, like a lot of Godzilla threads, Gish is basically a "bad word".
Much like that other icky word, "competent".
I keep seeing this word. What does it mean?
It's a githyanki fighter/magic-user.
As A Man in Black notes, "the name entered generalized use on the 3.5 WOTC CharOp boards" - so you can tell how much legitimacy it has outside of it's proper and correct githyanki meaning (regardless of what certain internet messageboarders think). :D
Creative Director
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These forums are heavily infested with trolls accusing any exploration of this space to be powergaming, largely encouraged by comments from one of the lead Paizo writers, James Jacobs. Be careful to take many of these posts, particularly the post immediately preceding this one, with a large grain of salt, especially when posters talk about their "impressions" from "other boards" which remain unspecified.
My main problem with the word has nothing to do with any implication of powergaming. It's mostly because it's a specific word that applies to a specific (closed content) race—the githyanki. Plus the fact that the word has completely DIFFERENT connotations depending upon what NSFW regions of the internet one happens to be in at any one time.
And you should probably take ALL posts to ANY messageboard with a grain of salt. Messageboards being what they are.
Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A great deal of the time that people want a Gish, (unless I am misreading what yo are taking about somehow), that player does want to be a badass Fighter and Arcanist, but not have to worry about the downsides. I would imagice that it is much more about powergaming than concept most of the time.
Otherwise, there is the Bard, right?
The Bard is cool but I'd like a little less magic and little more fight. That's just my preference. 4th level arcane spells instead of 6th and spell progression not starting till 4th level like a ranger or paladin would be nice.
I just wanted to drop a couple of links where Gish is not used as a "bad word". They all come from Giant in the Playground Forums, so I guess this would just prove at that site it is not used exclusively as a "bad word".
Drow Dragon Disciple
Duskblade spell list
Runesmith based gish [3.5,FR]
Meh. This debate will go on and on and on.
Enough 3PPs have provided alternatives, but let's face it -- nearly everyone wants a Jedi/Duskblade style arcane warrior shoehorned into a Bard chassis and wants Paizo to do it so that it can be involved in PFSP. Since most published campaigns tend to cater to the 1st to 12th level crowd and the issue behind the EK being unsatisfactory is that it takes six or seven CLs to start accomplishing what most PCs want to begin right out of the gate at 1st ... or even come to some sort of a synergistic evolution by 3rd level.
Despite the six new classes that are coming in the APG, there just seems to be some resistance for the creative staff to take this route from whatever reason that surmises. But as far as I can see it, there's some money to be made here as this seems to have a unceasing following and would probably be easier to address in the near future than say ... an Asian, Epic, or Psionic ruleset.
It would have been a riot to have seen Paizo's take on it announced in conjunction with April Fool's and the reaction to it. =)
Gosh
Gish: A word guaranteed to incite flamewars on gaming boards. See also "Katana".
You know, I haven't seen a good katana flame war in quite some time.
katana's are Bastard swords.
Happy now?
[Kyle] You bastard! [/Kyle]
Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A great deal of the time that people want a Gish, (unless I am misreading what yo are taking about somehow), that player does want to be a badass Fighter and Arcanist, but not have to worry about the downsides. I would imagice that it is much more about powergaming than concept most of the time.
Otherwise, there is the Bard, right?
Its not out of nowhere, there was a whole stream of posts calling out all people who want to play a gish, and lumping them all together as childish power gamers.
The whole problem is the assumption that a class should have built in downsides. Classes should just work for what they are made for. Multiclassing should have downsides (such as limited progression in each specialty) but most gish advocates at this point want a base class. Which in and of it self doesnt need to have a downside, it's abilities just need to be balanced against the rest.
And I need to just save a copied response to why the bard isnt right for the gish role. It's spell list is focused on enchantment and illusion spells. In my view (and many others) transmutation, evocation, necromancy, and abjuration are more important to the 'sword mage'. Its class features are focused on it's songs. A sword mage class's features should focus on combining martial and magic abilities. Examples include the super genius archon (bard chassis), and the iron mage homebrew class(paladin chassis). Both have the magical fighter feel, but are not out of balance with the classes they are based on.
The bard is also a skillmonkey. Another feature that is not in line with being a fighter/mage. A class is a cup, filled with abilities, make the cup too big and it is overpowered. The bard's cup is full of songs, enchantment/illusion spells, and skills. The cup needs to be filled with different ingredients to make a proper fighter mage.
Alot of people agree that the bard chassis is a good one for a fighter mage, but the class itself needs to be re focused.
+1 to the previous poster, but I'm sure he already knew I would be. =)
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Its not out of nowhere, there was a whole stream of posts calling out all people who want to play a gish, and lumping them all together as childish power gamers.Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A
No there wasn't? There was 3 (Ogre, Gigglestick, and I) that gave a very neutral, defining answer about what a Gish was, and 1 (Kthulhu)single person saying something only partially negative about the Gish concept.
Anyway, though, this is kind of off.
I want a good base class blade singer.....
too bad they cant call it that
it is a cool name
Hey guys
How about that Duskblade?
Its not out of nowhere, there was a whole stream of posts calling out all people who want to play a gish, and lumping them all together as childish power gamers.Its good that all the trolls are out in force.
That seems a bit "out of nowhere".
A
No there wasn't? There was 3 (Ogre, Gigglestick, and I) that gave a very neutral, defining answer about what a Gish was, and 1 (Kthulhu)single person saying something only partially negative about the Gish concept.
Anyway, though, this is kind of off.
Um, the two posts preceding mine? Gigglestick likens the word gish to a curseword or an insult
"Its sort of a curse word among gamers as well (like beardy or munchkin)."That is definitely not a neutral defining response.
Incidentally I have never heard of "gish" used as an insult outside of this thread. I cannot imagine the length a person's neckbeard would have to be in order to think of "gish" as a bad word or insult. Seriously. You could keep other, less frothy nerds in your beard, and they could build themselves a comfortable little home out of the unwashed dreads at that point.
Dude, Calm down :) and have a little respect.My main problem with the word has nothing to do with any implication of powergaming.That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about claims like. . .
Deflecting any discussion of game design with quibbling. . .
Honestly, I am with MIB here, I think James has been irresponsible with his posts on the fighter mage subject. Dislike of the word itself aside, he has made very strong negative comments about the concept, comments that were not supported by the statements made in the threads he was posting in. The one MIB pointed out is a good one, but its not the only. Staff statements carry a lot of weight around here, and rightfully so. But by that same token, one should take care when making statements like 'it will distroy the existing roles' or 'if you dont like x[where x is some existing character option], then you must be looking for a single base class that behaves like a gestault fighter wizard.'
He has made both, and neither was well founded in the actual statements made by posters in the actual thread. And it has shaped misconceptions that have shown up in future threads on the subject.
Incidentally I have never heard of "gish" used as an insult outside of this thread. I cannot imagine the length a person's neckbeard would have to be in order to think of "gish" as a bad word or insult. Seriously. You could keep other, less frothy nerds in your beard, and they could build themselves a comfortable little home out of the unwashed dreads at that point.
eh ya may have never heard of it, but outside of gaming it's not an uncommon term for well something that has nothing to do with magic..well maybe it's magic..of a sort I guess
All in all it's a silly word, that does not make a lick of sense unless you go and explain it..and then most folks who use it really don't understand how to explain it anyhow and that is not counting the issues of explaining it to people who know what a 'Gish" is and it has NOTHING to do with gaming
I can say Fighter/mage, Arcane warrior or hell Jedi and most folks who do not game understand just what that means. Not much chance of the awkward "A what????"