| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yar, if WBL was anything more than a balance guideline, then just as soon as my character found an item that exeeded his WBL entry, he'd have to drop it on the ground.
Toss in a quest artifact, and all of a sudden, Frodo has to give his shirt and sword to some fool of a Took, as well as taking a part-time job, as a Mordor messenger boy.
In my game (and note I make no attempt to state this is how things should be in Pathfinder), I allow Celestial Armor to be upgraded. You can get +4 or +5 Celestial Armor. You can add glamered, fire resistance, or whatever. Only thing, you can't do is add additional +1 special properties. And, Celestial Armor can only be crafted as chain mail. So no celestial breastplates or celestial band mail or celestial full plate. I also rule that it can't be made from mithril or adamantine, the magic requires normal steel.
Hasn't been a problem for my group.
Master Arminas
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the PCs having 500,000 gp worth of gear at level 6, on top of 45 point-buy. What's wrong with that?
If it works for Monty Haul, then it works for me. Besides, somebody has to be able to roleplay a party of filthy rich nobles from Krypton.
I know this thread has died out a while ago but after all these people complaining there should never be Celestial Full Plate I just had to point out this little thing:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celest ial-plate-armor
That is a 3.5 item, not Pathfinder RPG.
That is a 3.5 item, not Pathfinder RPG.I know this thread has died out a while ago but after all these people complaining there should never be Celestial Full Plate I just had to point out this little thing:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celest ial-plate-armor
I wasn't aware Curse of the Crimson Throne was written for 3.5.
I wasn't aware Curse of the Crimson Throne was written for 3.5.
Yep, it was the 2nd Adventure Path. It wasn't until the 5th AP that it was in PFRPG.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I made a post in the thread Pricing Mithral Items with the following breakdown:
Cost: 11,350
Added value by magic: 22,400 - 11,350 = 11,050
Total value of magic: 11,050 * 2 = 22,100
Mundane cost: 22,400 - 22,100 = 300
Masterwork component: 150
Base armor: 300 - 150 = 150 = standard Chainmail armor
Cost: 12,500
Added value by magic: 25,000 - 12,500 = 12,500
Total value of magic: 12,500 * 2 = 25,000
Mundane cost: 25,000 - 25,000 = 0
Seems there is no mundane component
Cost: 6,670
Added value by magic: 13,170 - 6,670 = 6,500
Total value of magic: 6,500 * 2 = 13,000
Mundane cost: 13,170 - 13,000 = 170
Masterwork component: 150
Base armor: 170 - 150 = 20 = standard Heavy Steel Shield
Well, the plate armor looks incorrectly priced by not having a mundane cost. However, the mundane cost of the other two seem to be based off of normal steel.
ACP reduced by (-5 vs -2) 3, (-6 vs -3) 3, (-2 vs 0) 2
ASF reduced by (30% vs 15%) 15%, (35% vs 20%) 15%, (15% vs 0%) 15%
It seems it gives a Max Dex increase of 5 or 6, reduce ACP by 3 with a cap of 0, and reduce ASF by 15%
It also gives Fly, Feather Fall, or Overland flight 1/day.
They all are half normal weight.
The armors also makes the proficiency needed change.
Celestial Armor also allows you to wear it hidden.
With two of three breakdowns showing steel as the base, I think it really is steel, with the goodness giving the color.
Chainmail +3 is 9,300.
Flight 1/day is 5,400 leaving 7,700 unaccounted for.
If we take the difference of mithral chain mail (4,150) and elven chain mail (5,150) we get 1,000 gp. Taking this from 7,700 we get 6,700. This "elven" effect is for making it light armor. This is almost the price difference between +3 and +4 (7,000).
I think I got it figured out:
Celestial Armor is +3 & "Elven" & Fly 1/day & Celestial (+1 equivalent) & base masterwork chainmail.
Enchanting is:
- + 150 (Chainmail)
- + 150 (masterwork)
- + 1,000 (elven lightness)
- + 5,400 (Fly 1/day @ 5th)
- + 4*4*1,000 (+3 & Celestial)
- - 300 (random discount)
- = 22,400 gp
What this means, is that you can treat the armor as if the "Celestial" enchantment was a +1 bonus, with a required extra for the elven light feature.
Checking for Celestial Plate Armor, you have:
- + 1,500 (Full Plate)
- + 150 (masterwork)
- + 1,000 (elven lightness)
- + 8,640 (Fly 1/day @ 8th)
- + 4*4*1,000 (+3 & Celestial)
- - 2,290 (random discount)
- = 25,000 gp
Checking for the Celestial Shield:
- + 20 (Heavy Steel Shield)
- + 150 (masterwork)
- + 1,000 (elven lightness)
- + 360 (Feather Fall 1/day)
- + 10,080 (Overland Flight 1/day @ 7th)
- - 5,400 (Fly 1/day @ 5th replaced by Overland Flight)
- + 4*4*1,000 (+2 & blinding & Celestial)
- - 9,040 (major random discount)
- = 13,170 gp
OK. This breaks down on the rest. Dang. The Overland Flight for the shield really breaks it, as it is Summoner 4(CL 10) or Wizard 5(CL 9). No listing for it as a CL 7 anywhere. Still, as a +1 bonus enchantment, it comes close and scales well.
/cevah
There is nothing wrong with athat, of course. But then peopel can just not complain if their Pcs are too strong.Personally, I see nothing wrong with the PCs having 500,000 gp worth of gear at level 6, on top of 45 point-buy. What's wrong with that?
If it works for Monty Haul, then it works for me. Besides, somebody has to be able to roleplay a party of filthy rich nobles from Krypton.
Exactly. Monty Haul games are fine, but you can't really use them as a starting point for game balance discussions. It's no surprise that balance gets a bit wonky when the party is massively over or under Wealth By Level.
If it WASN'T Mithral, I'd envision it looking like Iron Man armor. ;) Gold and red! ;)
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In 3rd ed I'd always taken it as made out of mithral, and it was just gold/silver coloured. That just left an unexplained extra +4 max Dex as an enchantment, and it was easy to adjudicate the armour in an anti-magic field or if it was dispelled: it was just mithral chainmail.
Now the PF devs say that it's not mithral at all, it's actually made of actual gold and actual silver. This is problematic. What mundane armour do you craft which is then enchanted? If it's chainmail made out of gold, then isn't this twice the weight and one less armour bonus? What stops the enchanter from using steel as the base, or mithral, or adamantine?
If, for some reason, only gold or silver is a viable target for the enchantment, then what stats does Celestial Chain have when dispelled or in an anti-magic field? This is a practical example of why the game should write this item, as well as the Sunblade etc., using the magic item creation rules that it went to such lengths to create.
If, instead of being normal gold, it's a special gold that makes armour with a max Dex six better than for steel, three less ACP etc., which is then enchanted to be Celestial Chain....then gimme some of that armour! I'll enchant it myself, thank you very much! Or just leave it unenchanted as masterwork New Gold with all those better-than-mithral stats! How much does that cost?
It's no good providing rules for creating magic items which mesh perfectly with the rest of the game engine, then give us examples that don't use those rules but are still expected to interact with those same rules.
In 3rd ed I'd always taken it as made out of mithral, and it was just gold/silver coloured. That just left an unexplained extra +4 max Dex as an enchantment, and it was easy to adjudicate the armour in an anti-magic field or if it was dispelled: it was just mithral chainmail.
Now the PF devs say that it's not mithral at all, it's actually made of actual gold and actual silver. This is problematic. What mundane armour do you craft which is then enchanted? If it's chainmail made out of gold, then isn't this twice the weight and one less armour bonus? What stops the enchanter from using steel as the base, or mithral, or adamantine?
If, for some reason, only gold or silver is a viable target for the enchantment, then what stats does Celestial Chain have when dispelled or in an anti-magic field? This is a practical example of why the game should write this item, as well as the Sunblade etc., using the magic item creation rules that it went to such lengths to create.
If, instead of being normal gold, it's a special gold that makes armour with a max Dex six better than for steel, three less ACP etc., which is then enchanted to be Celestial Chain....then gimme some of that armour! I'll enchant it myself, thank you very much! Or just leave it unenchanted as masterwork New Gold with all those better-than-mithral stats! How much does that cost?
It's no good providing rules for creating magic items which mesh perfectly with the rest of the game engine, then give us examples that don't use those rules but are still expected to interact with those same rules.
They made it gold and silver for flavor.
If it weighs the same as mithral then use the mithal rules to craft it. Don't overthink it. :)
Fly once a day is not worth all that much. A fly potion is 750 IIRC so you get one free potion a day.
The +3 dex is nice, but I would rather have the armor for the ability to fly even if I dont have a maxed out dex build.
For all of this convenience 5000 seems about right to me.
|
|
Compare it to mithril. It's got better max dex bonus, better ASF, and better armor check penalty... And since it's not a material, it stacks with those benefits from mithril.
Celestial, if it exists as an enchantment that you could put on a chain shirt rather than on full chainmail, lets you get a +4 armor bonus, plus enhancement bonuses, with no arcane spell failure or armor check penalty, and a max dex bonus of probably +11 (if it's the +5 seen with celestial full plate) or +12 (if it's the +6 from the chainmail). That's insanely good, compared to anything else you can get with no arcane spell failure or armor check penalty.
Which is another good reason to rule that it's mithral to start with.
Malachi, the stats for golden armor can be found here. For silver, either say that it's alchemical silver and involves no meaningful weight chage or use the same rules as gold.
|
Cevah, I am so glad you posted that, because I'm sitting on a large hunk of spending money in a PF game right now, looking for ways to get 0% ASF, and one suggested option was a Celestial chain shirt made out of mithril. So far as I can tell, that should cost very close to the same price as the standard Celestial armor, plus 1000gp for being mithril light armor instead of regular light armor, and weigh about 12 pounds.
If that's a +1-equivalent enchantment (and it seems... unduly good for a +1, really), I can probably arrange this and have a lot of plusses left over for other armor enchantments on it.
Unfortunately, in PFS< you can only build UP to named items, but cannot then modify them further.
So, per the way Celestial Armor is written, and the rules as written, in PFS, you can never have anything but standard Celestial Armor.
I'm not playing PFS, so I'm interested in the PF rules in general, not the additional restrictions of PFS. So I can ask a GM whether a given alteration is permitted, and if it's reasonable I may be ok.
There are no rules for using unique items as something other than what they are.
As to what is reasonable? That is trickier.
Are you playing a super OP munchkiny homegame? Then stacking 'celestial' enchant on some mithril/admantine alloy fullplate seems fine. Especially if it just so happens to be an Intelligent item too. Winning.
Playing a normal WBL standard nothing wacko game? Probably best to leave it as is. Or at most allow it to get further enchanted to increase the numerical enchantment, up to +5.
Why? Well, yes, having 0% ASF is 'cool'. But, armor has a check penalty for a reason. And that's cuz mages aren't supposed to be decked out in full plate rockin higher ACs than everyone else by a long shot... Armor is specifically called out as interfering with arcane magic. There are not really any standard ways to get armor with 0% ASF, and that is 100% in line with the idea that armor interferes with arcane magic.
There are balancing reasons for this, as well as thematic reasons for this.
There are already ways around it, in a sense, in that yo can take feats to ignore some arcane spell failure %s... being able to wear Mithril Celestial Plate with a 10% ASF, and simply using the Arcane Armor Training feat would leave you at 0% ASF. So... you would have this wonky situation where Wizards can wear full plate without any issues casting their spells whatsoever. (it’s already crazy enough that it can be done at all, let along making it so that the plate is further enchantable, and requires less feats to do it)
Is that really the game you wanna play in? If so, get your DM to buy off on it.
Would be funny, when you fight an evil wizard in full plate who's pretty much impossible to hit, though.
|
|
But one of the Paizo people already explicitly rejected that.Which is another good reason to rule that it's mithral to start with.Compare it to mithril. It's got better max dex bonus, better ASF, and better armor check penalty... And since it's not a material, it stacks with those benefits from mithril.
Celestial, if it exists as an enchantment that you could put on a chain shirt rather than on full chainmail, lets you get a +4 armor bonus, plus enhancement bonuses, with no arcane spell failure or armor check penalty, and a max dex bonus of probably +11 (if it's the +5 seen with celestial full plate) or +12 (if it's the +6 from the chainmail). That's insanely good, compared to anything else you can get with no arcane spell failure or armor check penalty.
Yes they did.
Which leaves us wondering how Celestial stacks with mithral, or jumping through intellectual hoops to try to explain how the rules of the game don't apply to the rules of the game, and wondering if the dispelled armour is made of real gold or New Gold which has the amazing magical property of being just like steel...or possibly just like mithral...
We don't know! We did know, when it was mithral!
|
Here's a thought. The developer states explicitly that its made from silver and gold. The item states the same. Here's a list of things to keep in mind as I make my point.
Mithral is a super light metal that shares silver properties and is easier to move in.
Elves can craft steel to be so well fit to your character, that not only is it lighter, but it behaves as if wearing lighter similar armor for proficiency.
In 2E.x and 3E.x there was a currency type between gold and silver that is made from both gold and silver called electrum. If I am not mistaken it was lighter weight than gold and more durable than either (yay metallurgy and alloys).
In 3E.x there was a +1 property (agileness i believe it was called) that further increased your max dexterity and reduced your check penalty and stacked with mithral.
Thematically, celestial armor would be armor made from a special material made from gold and silver (electrum) that has been crafted by master elven smiths in the same way that they make elven chain. Thus creating a material component similar to mithral but invented by and worked only by master elven smiths, unlike mithral which is an armor material who's secret to creation is unique to dwarves (or whoever they sell it to because they are greedy for gold like that).
Mechanically, this would be Electrum (a new material) and would not be stackable with mithral but would have the same values as mithral except that it also reduces proficiency on top of movement speed. As a dm I would price this at 2,000gp for light armor (allowing it to be worn without armor proficiency not that it matters) and increasing it's price following the mithral chart.
With that, the Celestial property becomes worth only a +1 since it would only improve max dex by 3 and decrease check penalties by 1. Though I might recommend it as a +2 property because it's near mithral, which is 4,000 for medium. Then you can simply specify that the unique examples are priced the way they are because they are set items that cannot be altered. They are configured the way they are because they were simply made that way.
Now to quote Jack Sparrow, or pretty much any pirate regarding the Pirate codex as it pertains to magic item creation. "They're really more just guidelines anyways."
|
|
'Gold' and 'Silver' can certainly mean the metals, but they are also a common way to describe the colour of metals that are not actually made of those metals.
For me, Celestial was always made of gold and silver coloured mithral, with an extra enchantment that increased the max Dex mod by four. Therefore, making it out of mithral is moot.