|
Can you please come up with a better name for it? I don't feel comfortable with in-game references to an "Anti-Paladin". It's not something people in a quasi medieval society would say. At least "blackguard" had credibility as an actual Medieval/Renaissance term.
I'm fine with antipaladin. I think it ties in nicely with antipope, an actual Medieval/Renaissance term. And antipopes made quasi-cardinals.
I'm not sure why people feel Medieval/Renaissance people didn't tack on Greek and Latin prefixes to make new words. It's not like antimater is the first use of "anti"
|
I'm not sure why people feel Medieval/Renaissance people didn't tack on Greek and Latin prefixes to make new words. It's not like antimater is the first use of "anti"
Well, and can't speak for the entire anti-antipaladin group, but the reason I don't like the term is that it defines the class as simply the opposite of the paladin. I'd rather the class have some actual flavor of it's own, as opposed to simply being a paladin with the terms "lawful" and "good" search/replaced with "chaotic" and "evil". But even if it does, labeling it as the antipaladin implies that it does not.
No, he's pointedly NOT saying that. What he is saying is, "C'mon people, do you really think we haven't thought of that? Have a little faith."Sure would make sense for including rules/guidelines/instructions for converting a paladin to an antipaladin or vice-versa, wouldn't it? :)EDIT: what Ben said; I also loved the Blackguard PrC for the story options; for example, my current PF RPG campaign features a High Priest (with Paladin levels) who'll be turning to evil, and I feel a bit uneasy about simply restatting him as a full Antipaladin. Maybe APG will present instructions/rules/guidelines for such NPCs?And the blackguard is not going to be updated. We're instead presenting the antipaladin as a full 1st-20th paladin variant class; this more or less replaces the blackguard prestige class entirely.
So, are you saying that those rules will be present?
Sure seems that way.
Also, during the most recent episode of Know Direction, Ryan does an interview with Jason Bulmahn and Jason pretty flat out says that those rules will be included. The whole interview is about the APG, you should check it out if you haven't already.
Also, during the most recent episode of Know Direction, Ryan does an interview with Jason Bulmahn and Jason pretty flat out says that those rules will be included. The whole interview is about the APG, you should check it out if you haven't already.
Can u put up a link for that podcast
Can u put up a link for that podcast
Also, during the most recent episode of Know Direction, Ryan does an interview with Jason Bulmahn and Jason pretty flat out says that those rules will be included. The whole interview is about the APG, you should check it out if you haven't already.
No problem Joey. Here it is: Link
I'm not sure why people feel Medieval/Renaissance people didn't tack on Greek and Latin prefixes to make new words. It's not like antimater is the first use of "anti"Well, and can't speak for the entire anti-antipaladin group, but the reason I don't like the term is that it defines the class as simply the opposite of the paladin. I'd rather the class have some actual flavor of it's own, as opposed to simply being a paladin with the terms "lawful" and "good" search/replaced with "chaotic" and "evil". But even if it does, labeling it as the antipaladin implies that it does not.
I think "Reaver" is the word that would most describe the polar opposite of a Paladin. Think Firefly ;)
I don't like the concept of a CE Champion anyhow. Anti-paladin to me would be a LE guy, not a guy who seeks only destruction and evil, without thought.
+1 for both the Anti-Paladin being LE and for ditching the name Anti-Paladin in favor of Blackguard (or anything else more fluid sounding really)
We are stuck with the name. And really if your gonna be an ANti-paladin LE just does not cut it as you not anti much at all.
We are stuck with the name. And really if your gonna be an ANti-paladin LE just does not cut it as you not anti much at all.
I guess I just equate my view on it with Dragonlance:
Paladin = Knights of Solamnia - LG
Blackguard (Anti-Paladin, whatever) = Knights of Takhisis(Neraka) - LE
Ugh DL....anyhow yeah LE is gonna fall under Templars if I recall as do NE and everything not LG or CE.
See it as a 3 stage thing.
Paladin LG= Super good
Anti-paladin CE= Really , really evil
Templar LN-CN= shades in between
Ugh DL....anyhow yeah LE is gonna fall under Templars if I recall as do NE and everything not LG or CE.
See it as a 3 stage thing.
Paladin LG= Super good
Anti-paladin CE= Really , really evil
Templar LN-CN= shades in between
As I mentioned above, I would much rather see it handled this way:
Paladin LG, NG, CG
Templar LN, TN, CN
Blackguard (or Anti-Paladin, ugh) LE, NE, CE
Ugh DL....anyhow yeah LE is gonna fall under Templars if I recall as do NE and everything not LG or CE.
See it as a 3 stage thing.
Paladin LG= Super good
Anti-paladin CE= Really , really evil
Templar LN-CN= shades in between
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would much prefer to see it handled in this way:
Paladin LG, NG, CG
Templar LN, TN, CN
Blackguard (or Anti-Paladin, ugh) LE, NE, CE
|
I think "Reaver" is the word that would most describe the polar opposite of a Paladin. Think Firefly ;)I'm not sure why people feel Medieval/Renaissance people didn't tack on Greek and Latin prefixes to make new words. It's not like antimater is the first use of "anti"Well, and can't speak for the entire anti-antipaladin group, but the reason I don't like the term is that it defines the class as simply the opposite of the paladin. I'd rather the class have some actual flavor of it's own, as opposed to simply being a paladin with the terms "lawful" and "good" search/replaced with "chaotic" and "evil". But even if it does, labeling it as the antipaladin implies that it does not.
Reaver!? Where? Those guys give me the creeps?
I do not get it. How's a guy get so wrong; cutting on his own face, raping and murdering. Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly only when I'm getting paid. These reavers... the last ten years, they show up like the bogey man from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?
Templar LN-CN= shades in between
As I mentioned above, I would much rather see it handled this way:
Paladin LG, NG, CG
Templar LN, TN, CN
Blackguard (or Anti-Paladin, ugh) LE, NE, CE
Ugh no. Paladins are LG and nothing else. I am thinking the other two will be based off the paladin but will not be just alike save "evil" in place of good I think we will see replacement cl ass features not just evil versions
Krome think more of a champion of Rovagug or demon lords.
And wonderful quote.
Reaver!? Where? Those guys give me the creeps?
I do not get it. How's a guy get so wrong; cutting on his own face, raping and murdering. Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly only when I'm getting paid. These reavers... the last ten years, they show up like the bogey man from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?
I always thought Jayne had a practical slant on life although I think, or is that hope?, there's more Malcolm in most of us...
|
|
I always thought Jayne had a practical slant on life although I think, or is that hope?, there's more Malcolm in most of us...Reaver!? Where? Those guys give me the creeps?
I do not get it. How's a guy get so wrong; cutting on his own face, raping and murdering. Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly only when I'm getting paid. These reavers... the last ten years, they show up like the bogey man from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?
"I married me a powerful ugly woman... If I could make you prettier, I would!!!" Hahahah!
Firefly/Serenity's got the best quotables!
Ugh DL....anyhow yeah LE is gonna fall under Templars if I recall as do NE and everything not LG or CE.
See it as a 3 stage thing.
Paladin LG= Super good
Anti-paladin CE= Really , really evil
Templar LN-CN= shades in betweenAs I mentioned above, I would much rather see it handled this way:
Paladin LG, NG, CG
Templar LN, TN, CN
Blackguard (or Anti-Paladin, ugh) LE, NE, CE
For what it's worth (not much), I agree with you Gambit. Unfortunately (for us), it's not gonna go down that way.
Always remember though, house rules are your friend! :-)
|
|
Ugh DL....anyhow yeah LE is gonna fall under Templars if I recall as do NE and everything not LG or CE.
See it as a 3 stage thing.
Paladin LG= Super good
Anti-paladin CE= Really , really evil
Templar LN-CN= shades in betweenAs I mentioned above, I would much rather see it handled this way:
Paladin LG, NG, CG
Templar LN, TN, CN
Blackguard (or Anti-Paladin, ugh) LE, NE, CEFor what it's worth (not much), I agree with you Gambit. Unfortunately (for us), it's not gonna go down that way.
Always remember though, house rules are your friend! :-)
Yep! In my games, I would use a very similar "mechanic" I've been using the Paladins of Freedom and Tyranny stuff instead, but looking for a decent alternative.
I always thought Jayne had a practical slant on life although I think, or is that hope?, there's more Malcolm in most of us...Reaver!? Where? Those guys give me the creeps?
I do not get it. How's a guy get so wrong; cutting on his own face, raping and murdering. Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly only when I'm getting paid. These reavers... the last ten years, they show up like the bogey man from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?
"I married me a powerful ugly woman... If I could make you prettier, I would!!!" Hahahah!
Firefly/Serenity's got the best quotables!
I swear by my pretty flowered bonnet, I will end you.
:-D
I always thought Jayne had a practical slant on life although I think, or is that hope?, there's more Malcolm in most of us...Reaver!? Where? Those guys give me the creeps?
I do not get it. How's a guy get so wrong; cutting on his own face, raping and murdering. Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's going to start a fair fight. If he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly only when I'm getting paid. These reavers... the last ten years, they show up like the bogey man from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?
"I married me a powerful ugly woman... If I could make you prettier, I would!!!" Hahahah!
Firefly/Serenity's got the best quotables!
I swear by my pretty flowered bonnet, I will end you.
:-D
I'll be in my bunk.
I am not sure we will every see the level of awesome quotes from one show ever again.
Sigh I still miss it
If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skin into their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky? They'll do it in that order.
I can see everyone agrees those dudes are the embodiment of Chaotic Evil. :)
How about a CE Antipaladin and a LE Blackguard and a NE something else. I personally always like the Antipaladin, and I like them being the opposite of a Paladin (pretty conventient given the name).
How about a CE Antipaladin and a LE Blackguard and a NE something else. I personally always like the Antipaladin, and I like them being the opposite of a Paladin (pretty conventient given the name).
In your game you can call them what you want I think its a 1-20 anti Paladin and 1-20 templar
I don't like the concept of a CE Champion anyhow. Anti-paladin to me would be a LE guy, not a guy who seeks only destruction and evil, without thought.
I like the idea of diferent classes for diferent alignments, I just don't see it having anything to do with the paladin. The paladin is the LG warrior of a God. Anything that is not LG and doesn't follow a LG God, should be VERY different from the paladin in my book. And by different I don't mean only oposite.
I totally agree with this - a 100% search-and-replace good-to-evil on the Paladin would end up with a LE class who is dedicated to a god of destruction. (The very idea of a CE character following a "code" violates the C part of the alignment).
Plus, I've always thought that "anti-paladin" sounds like an Italian appetizer. Blackguard was just a better name.
If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skin into their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky? They'll do it in that order.I can see everyone agrees those dudes are the embodiment of Chaotic Evil. :)
+1!
|
The very idea of a CE character following a "code" violates the C part of the alignment.
No, it doesn't. While many people like to play Lawful Evil as a character with a 'personal code', that sort of things belongs to CE.
A lawful character will follow the rules of society (or at least pretend to himself that he does in case of LE).You could easily have a CE character that refrains from killing children (also he might try to rationalize it like 'they aren't worthy to be killed by me').
Upholding a code has little to do with alignment.
Upholding a code THAT WAS GIVEN TO YOU BY SOMEONE ELSE, however, does have everything to do with alignment.
Back to topic: Can't wait. :-)
New class features, non-suckiness for all those out there in desperate need of some designer love (especially the bardaronk) PLUS feat goodness and so much more.
Please to deep-freeze me until then. Oh, wait, after I've done my appliances, that is.
^^
I'm curious to see how powerful the "other" paladins will be compared to the lawful good ones.
If you just give a chaotic evil paladin an equivalent power for every power the LG one has, you end up with a much more powerful class. The LG code of conduct often makes a paladin fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak.
In my opinion, a LG paladin should be able to kick a CE paladin's ass in a fair fight, every time. Because the CE paladin can resort to dirty tricks like poison, threatening to kill kidnapped innocents if the LG paladin doesn't back off, lying about his true nature to the locals, etc., he already has more options than his LB counterpart.
A CE paladin can follow laws and be kind to the locals if it suits his purposes, but can still keep his evil options open. A LG paladin can only use LG methods.
Anyway, my two cents.
I'm a big fan of "paladins" of all alignments. Be honest, the paladin is like a cleric a guy (or girl) a god channels his power through. He just has another role. Where the cleric is the preacher, healer and shepherd the paladin is the defender, slayer and champion. Why should a lawful good lesser deity be able to empower champions while chaotic good or true neutral major deities can't?
I'm a big fan of "paladins" of all alignments. Be honest, the paladin is like a cleric a guy (or girl) a god channels his power through. He just has another role. Where the cleric is the preacher, healer and shepherd the paladin is the defender, slayer and champion. Why should a lawful good lesser deity be able to empower champions while chaotic good or true neutral major deities can't?
well thats the Templar, not a PrC
I'm not a big fan of paladins of all alignments. I am, however, a fan of the notion that Neutral and Chaotic Evil should have "paladin-like" classes whose abilities represent their standing as a warrior in service of that cause. Lawful Good paladins represent martial virtue and valor, hence things like laying on of hands.
Zo
I have it on good authority that Flumph herder is in.
Ah, but what of the Giant Space Hamster Rancher?
|
|
Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Paladin should only be of one Alignment extreme. Only NG, CE, LN, or CN. Those are the alignments that serve their true purpose fully, without being compromised by a secondary, or even tertiary ideal that is not relavent.
For example a typical LG Paladin, should be striving for goodness, in all ways. But when you toss in the lawful part, that hinders the goodness. There should never be an issue when a (LG) Paladin needs to weigh the moral obligations to doing the Lawful OR the Good thing when the two are not aligned. Whereas a NG Paladin would never need to worry about this, they simply do what needs to be done (and can still be just as honorable and noble) to achieve the best "good" in any situation.
Not to mention so much of the various alignment debates would no longer matter.
Additionally, it would drop the rediculous idea that LG Paladins are against CE Outsiders, when hands down the LE ones are much more threatening. And a more sensible opponent for the champion of the light. Heck the CE Outsiders, (always forget Devil/Demons), usually wind up killing each other. :)
But that is my opinion.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Paladin should only be of one Alignment extreme. Only NG, CE, LN, or CN.
But that is my opinion.
Interesting. I assume you meant NE, not CE though?
Interesting. I assume you meant NE, not CE though?Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Paladin should only be of one Alignment extreme. Only NG, CE, LN, or CN.
But that is my opinion.
He meant Chaotic Evil (CE), Neutral Evil (NE) isn't an extreme since one part of it is neutral.
I think there should be "paladins" (the name is debatable) for every alignment. There were a lot of good ideas out there, like a true neutral paladin with "Smite Extremist" (LG, CG, LE and CE enemies), or a paladin of law (with "Smite Chaos").
However, in my opinion they should just make one paladin for each important point of the alignment axis. In short one for good, one for evil, one for law, one for chaos and one for neutrality.
The current paladin's code is more than wonky and was that way in all different incarnations. For example the "help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends". You slay an evil tyrant and the people drive out the monarchy and begin experimenting with different forms of government, resulting in a bit of non-malevolent anarchy. You just lost your class abilities. :D
Same with with the paladin of freedom. You help driving out monsters from the wilderness, and the grateful people build a lawful good society there. Bam, you lost your class abilities.
Interesting. I assume you meant NE, not CE though?Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Paladin should only be of one Alignment extreme. Only NG, CE, LN, or CN.
But that is my opinion.He meant Chaotic Evil (CE), Neutral Evil (NE) isn't an extreme since one part of it is neutral.
I'd assumed he meant pure evil -- NE. Given he has pure good (NG), pure law (LN), and pure chaos (CN). CE is evil "tainted" by chaos. All the other "extremes" involved a neutral component.
I'd agree that there should be a Templar for each alignment though.
There should never be an issue when a (LG) Paladin needs to weigh the moral obligations to doing the Lawful OR the Good thing when the two are not aligned. Whereas a NG Paladin would never need to worry about this, they simply do what needs to be done (and can still be just as honorable and noble) to achieve the best "good" in any situation.
No offense meant at all, but wouldn't that be a bit boring? It seems that part of the rich experience of playing a Paladin is that tug and pull. Read "The Legend of Huma" for a great example.
I'd assumed he meant pure evil -- NE. Given he has pure good (NG), pure law (LN), and pure chaos (CN). CE is evil "tainted" by chaos. All the other "extremes" involved a neutral component.Interesting. I assume you meant NE, not CE though?Personally, I'm of the opinion that a Paladin should only be of one Alignment extreme. Only NG, CE, LN, or CN.
But that is my opinion.He meant Chaotic Evil (CE), Neutral Evil (NE) isn't an extreme since one part of it is neutral.
Woops, sorry, I didn't look exactly at what he wrote and still had the extremist definition from the true neutral paladin variant in mind. :-( Okay, then it doesn't make sense. O_o
No offense meant at all, but wouldn't that be a bit boring? It seems that part of the rich experience of playing a Paladin is that tug and pull. Read "The Legend of Huma" for a great example.
No, it wouldn't be boring. In fact it would be more interesting if paladins had different codes of conduct depending on the deities they serve.
|
|
I have it on good authority that Flumph herder is in.Ah, but what of the Giant Space Hamster Rancher?
I think that's is going into the GM's guide in a special section for NPC prestige classes. I suppose a PC could take it but one of the prereqs is you have to have at least 3 levels of commoner to qualify for the prestige class. The good news is that you get a Giant Space Hamster animal companion and the levels stack the characters druid levels.
Let's just remove the Paladin alignment req. It's ridiculous and leads to ridiculous things.
I'm hoping for the "Antimonk" class. It's all about wearing armor and using weapons. Like yeah...
Or an "Antidruid" if there are good rules for clearing land to build strip malls and parking lots.
"Anti-" class names just sound dumb to me.
Because it is.
"Lol, I'm the Anti-Paladin. I smoke in no smoking zones using pipes made of the bones of children I slew! Because that's what a Paladin wouldn't do!"Not only is it silly, but it's limiting. Congratulations, you just made two classes that are pretty much the same but with opposite alignments. What about other choices to play the class with? I preferred the Paladins of Freedom/Tyranny/Chaos from UA. Not much changed, but at least they made the effort to provide a variety. Antipaladin may change alot (which is unlikely), but there is no variety.
I'm hoping for the "Antimonk" class. It's all about wearing armor and using weapons. Like yeah...
Or an "Antidruid" if there are good rules for clearing land to build strip malls and parking lots.
"Anti-" class names just sound dumb to me.
Because it is.
"Lol, I'm the Anti-Paladin. I smoke in no smoking zones using pipes made of the bones of children I slew! Because that's what a Paladin wouldn't do!"Not only is it silly, but it's limiting. Congratulations, you just made two classes that are pretty much the same but with opposite alignments. What about other choices to play the class with? I preferred the Paladins of Freedom/Tyranny/Chaos from UA. Not much changed, but at least they made the effort to provide a variety. Antipaladin may change alot (which is unlikely), but there is no variety.
Thats what the Templar will be Paladin for all the other Alignments