From the PFRD:
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
and
You can strike out at every foe within reach.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
1) With Lunge do you threaten at both 5'-10' during the round?
2) If you do does that mean you can whirlwind all those within reach, so everyone at 5'-10' from you?
Please advise.
Yup, it's spiffy. Especially with a polearm, you can hit everything 10'-15' away.
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Not only that, but the 5 ft step rules say you can interupt other actions with them. :)
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From the PFRD: ** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **
1) With Lunge do you threaten at both 5'-10' during the round?
2) If you do does that mean you can whirlwind all those within reach, so everyone at 5'-10' from you?Please advise.
With reach, you can attack a creature 10'away, but cannot attack a creature 5'away (see the reach quality in the equipment section). I believe the exception to this is natural attacks.
So with your combo you could make a wirlwind attack against everyone within 10'but not against everyone within 5'.
Lunge increases your reach by 5ft, it doesn't turn your weapon into a reach weapon. So you would then be a medium character with a 10ft reach and threaten everything within that 10ft.
I allways interpreted it as increasing yoru reach to 10', which means you cannot hit anything within 5' (again, assuming a small or medium character).
The reason is mostly the wording for the feat, which says:
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
bolding mine
Why the caveat at the end of the description if you can attack anyone within 5' anyway?
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Because your attacks could (with certain maneuvers) provoke attacks of opportunity, and penalties to AC matter for that.
That and it's (in general) a good idea to map the location the penalty/benefit starts to the way the action works, for verisimilitude.
But I agree with Scipion's interpretation: It increases your reach, but doesn't change the "reach" properties of your weapon.
I would assume the caveat is there because of the AC penalty. Attacking other foes occasionally provokes attacks.
Having a 10' reach does not mean you can't hit creatures within' 5'. This only applies to weapons with the reach attribute. Otherwise it would be ridiculously easy to kill giants with the Step Up feat.
I'm not arguing that it changes your weapon to a reach weapon, just that you use the same mechanic.
It hasn't come up in my game yet, but I would be happy to interpret in either way. It's not overly unbalanced. Especially in the hands of a few powerfull BBEG's and an unsuspecting rogue maneuvering into a flanking position.
I'm not arguing that it changes your weapon to a reach weapon, just that you use the same mechanic.
It hasn't come up in my game yet, but I would be happy to interpret in either way. It's not overly unbalanced. Especially in the hands of a few powerfull BBEG's and an unsuspecting rogue maneuvering into a flanking position.
Reach is perfectly well defined already though, you threaten spaces up to a distance equal to your reach. This feat increases your reach, whereas reach WEAPONS imitate this property with the penalty that you no longer threaten adjacent squares (with that weapon anyway).
Here's my thinking;
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.
Lunge isn't doubling your reach, it's increasing it instead. Basically bumping you up on this chart. A large creature with 10ft reach can hit adjacent creatures, so why would a medium creature with 10ft not be able to hit those nearby.
Reach is perfectly well defined already though, you threaten spaces up to a distance equal to your reach. This feat increases your reach, whereas reach WEAPONS imitate this property with the penalty that you no longer threaten adjacent squares (with that weapon anyway).
That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification everyone.
Yup, it's feasible.
Take a look at example #2 here:
LEAGUE OF THE ONE TRICK PONY
I allways interpreted it as increasing yoru reach to 10', which means you cannot hit anything within 5' (again, assuming a small or medium character).
The reason is mostly the wording for the feat, which says:
** spoiler omitted **
Why the caveat at the end of the description if you can attack anyone within 5' anyway?
because of the AC penalty?
creatures with reach can attack any creature with in reach, it is only the 'reach' ability of weapons that prohibit attacking people inside of the reach... Lunge doesn't say that it turns your weapon into a Reach Weapon, it says 'You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn'. technically you don't even need to be using a weapon.
Not only that, but the 5 ft step rules say you can interupt other actions with them. :)
And if you make sure to combine that with casting enlarge person on yourself just before combat, you end up being able to cover 45 ft by 40 ft area^^ Not bad at all! The character I play right now ( fighter 5/rogue 2/wizard 1 ) uses this exact tactic. Actually I played with my group this very day and had the fortune of laying absolute waste to a group of zombies getting as much as 9 attacks at full BAB the first two rounds before they started going down :) I love this feat chain!
I allways interpreted it as increasing yoru reach to 10', which means you cannot hit anything within 5' (again, assuming a small or medium character).
The reason is mostly the wording for the feat, which says:
** spoiler omitted **
Why the caveat at the end of the description if you can attack anyone within 5' anyway?
Because otherwise they would always be taking a -2 to AC?
I've been wanting to play a large rogue 11 for just that reason. Enlarge Person can be gained as a spell-like ability thanks to the arcana talent, which can then be quickened via the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat. Not using a reach weapon, that's still potentially 112 attacks, there...
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I've been wanting to play a large rogue 11 for just that reason. Enlarge Person can be gained as a spell-like ability thanks to the arcana talent, which can then be quickened via the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat. Not using a reach weapon, that's still potentially 112 attacks, there...
112 attacks? What are you talking about?
I've been wanting to play a large rogue 11 for just that reason. Enlarge Person can be gained as a spell-like ability thanks to the arcana talent, which can then be quickened via the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat. Not using a reach weapon, that's still potentially 112 attacks, there...
How? I can at most get to 76 attacks (which is none too shabby, I'll say!)
1) With Lunge do you threaten at both 5'-10' during the round?
No. You gain +5' reach, but the area you threaten does not actually change.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
So technically your "thread reach" is not changed by the Lunge feat.
2) If you do does that mean you can whirlwind all those within reach, so everyone at 5'-10' from you?
Clarification: if you mean opponents at 5' and at 10'; yes.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells or abilitiesEnlarged, lunging whirlwinds aren't feasible unless you read 'bonus' as only a numerical caveat. Our group assumes bonus just means 'advantage'.
"bonus or extra attacks" should be read bonus attacks or extra attacks.
Extra attacks such as from haste or Flurry of Blows.
Bonus attacks such as those from the high BAB, Cleave or Great Cleave feat.
Other "advantages" and numerical modifiers + or - apply normally on Whirlwind Attacks. Including the extra reach from Lunge.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells or abilitiesEnlarged, lunging whirlwinds aren't feasible unless you read 'bonus' as only a numerical caveat. Our group assumes bonus just means 'advantage'."bonus or extra attacks" should be read bonus attacks or extra attacks.
Extra attacks such as from haste or Flurry of Blows.
Bonus attacks such as those from the high BAB, Cleave or Great Cleave feat.Other "advantages" and numerical modifiers + or - apply normally on Whirlwind Attacks. Including the extra reach from Lunge.
Agreed. Reach with whirlwind attack is perfectly viable. Take away reach from big creatures and they often don't have much else left.
Concerning which squares a creature can (whirlwind) attack, is this right?
(open spoiler please)
X = can attack
- = can not attack
medium creature with lunge can attack those squares (24):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 - - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - - -
3 - - X X X X X - -
4 - - X X X X X - -
5 - - X X O X X - -
6 - - X X X X X - -
7 - - X X X X X - -
8 - - - - - - - - -
9 - - - - - - - - -
medium creature with lunge & reach weapon can attack those squares (40):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 - - - - - - - - -
2 - X X X X X X X -
3 - X X X X X X X -
4 - X X - - - X X -
5 - X X - O - X X -
6 - X X - - - X X -
7 - X X X X X X X -
8 - X X X X X X X -
9 - - - - - - - - -
large creature with lunge & reach weapon can attack those squares (96):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
1 X X X X X X X X X X X
2 X X X X X X X X X X X
3 X X X X X X X X X X X
4 X X X - - - - - X X X
5 X X X - - - - - X X X
6 X X X - - O - - X X X
7 X X X - - - - - X X X
8 X X X - - - - - X X X
9 X X X X X X X X X X X
0 X X X X X X X X X X X
1 X X X X X X X X X X X
Edit: damn, sorry, formatting got lost due to non-courier font in actual post. :(
medium creature with lunge can attack those squares (24):
Technically, you can't reach that second diagonal, since that's 15' away.
It's extremely common for people to rule that a medium reach (10') can hit that square. Doing otherwise means it's possible to approach someone with a polearm along a diagonal without ever leaving a threatened square.
The Space, Reach, & Threatened Area Templates at d20pfsrd.com use this house ruling.
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large creature with lunge & reach weapon can attack those squares (96):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
1 X X X X X X X X X X X
2 X X X X X X X X X X X
3 X X X X X X X X X X X
4 X X X - - - - - X X X
5 X X X - - - - - X X X
6 X X X - - O - - X X X
7 X X X - - - - - X X X
8 X X X - - - - - X X X
9 X X X X X X X X X X X
0 X X X X X X X X X X X
1 X X X X X X X X X X X
Large creatures occupy 10'x10'. You will hit considerably more squares.
15' reach
X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X
X X X . . . X X X
X X X . . . X X X
X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X
60 attackable squares
15' reach - doubled for a reach weapon
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z . . . Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z . . . Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
132 attackable squares: 60 unattackable squares
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medium creature with lunge can attack those squares (24):Technically, you can't reach that second diagonal, since that's 15' away.
It's extremely common for people to rule that a medium reach (10') can hit that square. Doing otherwise means it's possible to approach someone with a polearm along a diagonal without ever leaving a threatened square.
The Space, Reach, & Threatened Area Templates at d20pfsrd.com use this house ruling.
They use it because it is the actual ruling. The second diagnol counts as fifteen when leaving it, not entering it. Diagnols are 7.5 feet, a 10' reach weapon threatens the second diagnol. Someone else can dig up the thread.
Going back to the original lunge whirlwind question: regardless of the RAW or RAI, I am having a hard time getting my head around the biomechanics of this lunge/whirlwind attack. I am thinking of the lunge as the term used in modern fencing and i just dont see how this flows into a whirlwind attack. Am I alone in having trouble envisioning how this works. (Note: I have no problem with the subsequent discussion regarding reach weapons and whirlwind)
As others have said, which squares you threaten is a matter of weapon reach vs. natural reach. The rules on this are more clearly defined here from the SRD:
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures
Very large creatures take up more than 1 square.
Creatures that take up more than 1 square typically have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, meaning that they can reach targets even if they aren't in adjacent squares.
Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
This is why large creatures threaten every square within 10 feet of them while a medium human with a polearm only threatens squares that are 10 feet from them (and not adjacent squares).
This has already been established, but this means that the real question is: Does the Lunge feat grant weapon reach or natural reach? The feat does not specify, but add me to the list who thinks it should be natural reach.
First of all, what is a lunge? It's over-extending your body. You're stretching further than normal to reach further, which is why you take a -2 penalty to AC.
Do I have a citation somewhere to back this up? No... but it is common sense. If you can present an argument better than this as to why it should be weapon reach, then I will stand corrected. But in the meantime, I really think Lunge should be ruled as natural reach.
Therefore, using Lunge WOULD allow a medium/small creature to threaten ALL squares within 10 feat using a non-reach weapon. A reach weapon COMBINED with Lunge would threaten squares 15 feet away, but not squares closer than that.
They use it because it is the actual ruling. The second diagnol counts as fifteen when leaving it, not entering it. Diagnols are 7.5 feet, a 10' reach weapon threatens the second diagnol. Someone else can dig up the thread.
I'm sure they can. In the meantime:
Measuring Distance: "As a general rule, distance is measured assuming that 1 square equals 5 feet."
Diagonals: "When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on."
1. Can you or can you not attack diagonally at a distance of 2x squares (15'=10' exception) with a reach weapon?Nope. A reach weapon gives a specific extension to your reach. When you count out squares, since every other square is doubled when you count diagonally, that means that there'll be corners where you can't reach.
Reach, in my opinion, should work into diagonal squares, though. For what that's worth.
No special diagonal rule = square fireballs. :(
The Space, Reach, & Threatened Area Templates at d20pfsrd.com use this house ruling.
Nice, thanks for the link!
Selk:
The reason WoTC added the 'bonus or extra attacks' line in 3.5 is because back in 3.0 there were a number of nasty builds that combined Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave to devastating affect. It was intended as a nerf to extra attacks.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).
As you can see, Paizo removed the example probably to save on words.
- Gauss
Selk:
The reason WoTC added the 'bonus or extra attacks' line in 3.5 is because back in 3.0 there were a number of nasty builds that combined Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave to devastating affect. It was intended as a nerf to extra attacks.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).As you can see, Paizo removed the example probably to save on words.
- Gauss
YES! The Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave and "bucket of snails" tactic.
Step one: close with bad guy and dump bucket of snails on him.
Step two: Whirlwind attack a snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Attack second snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Attack third snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Keep going until you run out of snails or the bad guy runs out of hit points. Your number of attacks are only limited by the number of snails you can fit in a bucket.
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YES! The Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave and "bucket of snails" tactic.Step one: close with bad guy and dump bucket of snails on him.
Step two: Whirlwind attack a snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Attack second snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Attack third snail, kill it, Great Cleave to bad guy. Keep going until you run out of snails or the bad guy runs out of hit points. Your number of attacks are only limited by the number of snails you can fit in a bucket.
A bucket of snails is functionally no different than a bucket of ants.
Rule it swarm that deals no damage and move on.
Not only that, but the 5 ft step rules say you can interupt other actions with them. :)
And later on, add Dazing Assault feat, too!
WWA on its own is pretty bad for all the wasted pre-reqs and how much the game rewards focus firing on one dude till he drops. But with enlarge person + reach weapon +lunge + dazing assault, it's actually pretty awesome.
For more fun w/ WWA, combine with level 11 Mobile Fighter, who can full attack and move if he forfeits his first attack. Dash around hacking at everyone like a dynasty warriors character using a musuo attack! :)
With a "Kama, double-chained", supposedly you could attack everything with-in 15ft with lung and whirlwind attack.
If you had a polearm and a bite attack would that let you cover 5-15ft with this combo.
whirlwind dosen't acutally saying anything about being limited to using one weapon just one attack per target within reach ?
If you had a polearm and a bite attack would that let you cover 5-15ft with this combo.
whirlwind dosen't acutally saying anything about being limited to using one weapon just one attack per target within reach ?
That's something similar to what I had in mind. Whirlwind Attack makes no mention of the attack being with a specific weapon (normally not an issue). But a monk's normal unarmed strike combined with a reach weapon could cover the whole range.
Add in lunge and/or enlarge person and you can get massive areas of effect. You just have to be clear on which weapon reaches which square (unarmed strike or the reach weapon), since they may not have the same attack and damage values.
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If you had a polearm and a bite attack would that let you cover 5-15ft with this combo.
whirlwind dosen't acutally saying anything about being limited to using one weapon just one attack per target within reach ?
Speaking of bite attacks.
I know somebody building a saurian shaman that should look into whirlwind + lunge + pounce + strongjaw.
20' reach on an 8d6 bite with pounce.
Something else to think about: two character built with whirlwind + lunge + enlarge.
One has butterfly sting and a 15-20 crit range. The other has a scythe.