So i'm going to play my second summoner soon, finding this new class very interesting. But there are some things concerning the eidolon...
1.) The summoner and his eidolon communicate via the 'link' ability, but the eidolon has a base intelligence of 7, so he should be capable of actually speaking a language. So can the eidolon speak and if, what?
-> in my party, the eidolon had the ability to speak celestial, because the summoner was CG and so was, as by the rules, the eidolon.
2.) What does an eidolon look like, or to be more accurate, what can it look like? The rules say, the physical appearance is up to you, but it has to be fantastical in some way. My last summoners eidolon was an biped anthropomorphic more-or-less-female fox/human with blue-white fur. Not very monstrous, but fantastical and good to handle in urban areas if equipped with some robes and hood. Possible?
3.)Can i love my eidolon? That's not an ethical question but more of a general rule-thing. The Eidolon can be a rather smart, charismatic and possibly even attractive (as far as I understand the rules, your eidolon could actually look like one of the viera race from FF12 or any other more-or-less fantastical but still kind of humanoid creature, as long as you do not imitate existing creatures). And if I can designate the eidolons appearance (presence and absence of certain body parts and how they function (i.e. retractable claws like a cat), there is no reason you could not have the same kind of relationship as with other outsiders, such as the succubus.
Again, that's not a 'can I bed my futa-furry-smexy-eidolon' question (GM's choice :D). But i wonder if the eidolon can have a true own personality, feelings and such, being more like a cohort than some animal comanion or ex-animal familiar.
Your thoughts?
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I don't see why not. I mean, you CAN increase the Eidolon's intelligence score. and as far as I know, the charisma score isn't too bad. I'd rule to a player who wanted to play one that their Eidolon speaks the same languages as the Summoner, due to the "link" and that they can interact with the other party members in an equally efficient manner. I mean, the main gimmick of the class is the Eidolon, so it really should be sort of like a "Cohort" thing.
I'd actually ask my DM to make the Eidolon have a scaling intelligence score, that increases as it's bond increases to it's summoner. The reason is because I don't see the low intelligence as a "sub-human" level of reason and thinking. I see it as a clinical detachment from the Prime Material Plane that is slowly remedied as they grow used to being with their summoner. As for what the scaling is? I'd say 1 point every 2 HD, so that the base intelligence is 7, but it starts as 8. then at 3rd level, it becomes 9, etc.
Hope that helped!
It's already been said by the developers that the eidolon knows and speaks the same languages as the Summoner.
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The question of loving one's Eidolon came up shortly after the class was released. James Jacobs wrote at the time that he was just glad the question hadn't come up when they released the Druid. =) Seriously.
It seems a little dirty doesn't it? I mean, its not like the Eidolon has much control over its life. I wouldn't call it rape perhaps but certainly no better than a mail order bride from Asia or where ever...
it all depends on just what the Eidolon really is. I mean is it a race that can not normally touch the prime plan? Something from the far realms? An angel? A demon? A lost love one given new life?
Really you have alot of leeway, but as others have said morals come into play as well, as really your Eidolon only have what free will you allow it.
it all depends on just what the Eidolon really is. I mean is it a race that can not normally touch the prime plan? Something from the far realms? An angel? A demon? A lost love one given new life?
If you are familiar with the Anime/ Manga "Shaman King", their Bonded Spirits are exactly like the Summoner's Eidolon, and one of the characters (Faust VIII) has her deceased wife Eliza (this link shows her in Battle-Mode) as her Spirit !!!
So, yes, it really depends on the kind of bond between the Summoner and his/her/its Eidolon, IMHO.
It seems a little dirty doesn't it? I mean, its not like the Eidolon has much control over its life. I wouldn't call it rape perhaps but certainly no better than a mail order bride from Asia or where ever...
To me it sounds more like Frankenstein's bride.
Can't find a soulmate? Why not build your own.
Sounds interesting, but if it caught on, it would most certainly lead to summoners being looked down on by the public. ("Hey, isn't that one of the guys who make out with their weird creations?")
So i'm going to play my second summoner soon, finding this new class very interesting. But there are some things concerning the eidolon...
1.) The summoner and his eidolon communicate via the 'link' ability, but the eidolon has a base intelligence of 7, so he should be capable of actually speaking a language. So can the eidolon speak and if, what?
-> in my party, the eidolon had the ability to speak celestial, because the summoner was CG and so was, as by the rules, the eidolon.2.) What does an eidolon look like, or to be more accurate, what can it look like? The rules say, the physical appearance is up to you, but it has to be fantastical in some way. My last summoners eidolon was an biped anthropomorphic more-or-less-female fox/human with blue-white fur. Not very monstrous, but fantastical and good to handle in urban areas if equipped with some robes and hood. Possible?
3.)Can i love my eidolon? That's not an ethical question but more of a general rule-thing. The Eidolon can be a rather smart, charismatic and possibly even attractive (as far as I understand the rules, your eidolon could actually look like one of the viera race from FF12 or any other more-or-less fantastical but still kind of humanoid creature, as long as you do not imitate existing creatures). And if I can designate the eidolons appearance (presence and absence of certain body parts and how they function (i.e. retractable claws like a cat), there is no reason you could not have the same kind of relationship as with other outsiders, such as the succubus.
Again, that's not a 'can I bed my futa-furry-smexy-eidolon' question (GM's choice :D). But i wonder if the eidolon can have a true own personality, feelings and such, being more like a cohort than some animal comanion or ex-animal familiar.Your thoughts?
Makes sense to me, my summoner is a female elf and she has sex with her wolf like eidolon. i made the DM laugh his ass off and kinda grossed out the other players. ;)
Makes sense to me, my summoner is a female elf and she has sex with her wolf like eidolon. i made the DM laugh his ass off and kinda grossed out the other players. ;)
I know of one dwarf who failed his Fort save to avoid losing his lunch. Not from the bit about bestiality, but from how closely it resembled the abomination that is Twilight *shiver*
and you can change your creation all you want to fit your desires, her appearance is up to you, meaning she can change to a form you desire as you please. as often as you like. she may complain, but must succumb to your will. if that means she has to take the form of a young petite cute tian-min female and wear a really short schoolgirl uniform, she must. as she is your will incarnate and cannot live without you. your entertainment is her task. she is your eidolon, an aspect of your thoughts as a summoner.
and you can change your creation all you want to fit your desires, her appearance is up to you, meaning she can change to a form you desire as you please. as often as you like. she may complain, but must succumb to your will. if that means she has to take the form of a young petite cute tian-min female and wear a really short schoolgirl uniform, she must. as she is your will incarnate and cannot live without you. your entertainment is her task. she is your eidolon, an aspect of your thoughts as a summoner.
This is why evil (or even neutral) summoners are creepy beyond all get-out. Imagine one in his tower, playing dress-up with his "toy" day in and day out.
As I stated earlier, even if the PC's wanted to free the Eidolon from this abuse, she could very well dissolve upon his death, and so chained to his life essence...
and you can change your creation all you want to fit your desires, her appearance is up to you, meaning she can change to a form you desire as you please. as often as you like. she may complain, but must succumb to your will. if that means she has to take the form of a young petite cute tian-min female and wear a really short schoolgirl uniform, she must. as she is your will incarnate and cannot live without you. your entertainment is her task. she is your eidolon, an aspect of your thoughts as a summoner.This is why evil (or even neutral) summoners are creepy beyond all get-out. Imagine one in his tower, playing dress-up with his "toy" day in and day out.
As I stated earlier, even if the PC's wanted to free the Eidolon from this abuse, she could very well dissolve upon his death, and so chained to his life essence...
that makes me really want to play a summoner. heck yeah.
that makes me really want to play a summoner. heck yeah.This is why evil (or even neutral) summoners are creepy beyond all get-out. Imagine one in his tower, playing dress-up with his "toy" day in and day out.
As I stated earlier, even if the PC's wanted to free the Eidolon from this abuse, she could very well dissolve upon his death, and so chained to his life essence...
You disturb me, Shuriken :P
Summoner is the most exciting class out of the APG playtests. Unfortunately, for game balance purposes he may be TOO exciting. I don't know. His eidolon power can definitely fill the "tank" role, so... *shrug*
It makes you wonder. Why do summoners even go adventuring in the first place?
It makes you wonder. Why do summoners even go adventuring in the first place?
Experience begets kinky ideas?
Plus, y'know, getting totally hot from seeing your prized Eidolon goring a few orcs.
Summoner is the most exciting class out of the APG playtests. Unfortunately, for game balance purposes he may be TOO exciting. I don't know. His eidolon power can definitely fill the "tank" role, so... *shrug*
We're going to have a fighter in our group with the eidlion. If he still outperforms it, then I think it's alright.
It's basically a fair to middling equipment like fighter that gets a free buff every round (and has a very weak fragile 'go the hell home' button)
It makes you wonder. Why do summoners even go adventuring in the first place?Experience begets kinky ideas?
Plus, y'know, getting totally hot from seeing your prized Eidolon goring a few orcs.
Uh... I've realized a freaky motivation...
...to add A LOT OF TENTACLES (!!!) to their creation ...
You could also rule that the Eidolon is like the djinni in 'The Bartameaus Trilogy' by Johnathon Stroud.
There are seven planes of existance of which humans only see the first and with magical lenses can see planes one through four.
The true form which is often on level seven is of some Cthuhlu type of multi-tentacle other space creature.
If you choose to make love to such a creature then you are really making love to some 'illusion' projected into the first plane to fool the human senses but the reality is the creature is some pile of goopy body parts with wierd orfices.
One sight of the 'real' creatures form (say a gate spell or a trip to the creatures true home plane should crush and disgust any human ~ at least until the creature drops a 'baby' off at the Summoners doorstep :D ).
You could also rule that the Eidolon is like the djinni in 'The Bartameaus Trilogy' by Johnathon Stroud.
There are seven planes of existance of which humans only see the first and with magical lenses can see planes one through four.
The true form which is often on level seven is of some Cthuhlu type of multi-tentacle other space creature.
If you choose to make love to such a creature then you are really making love to some 'illusion' projected into the first plane to fool the human senses but the reality is the creature is some pile of goopy body parts with wierd orfices.
One sight of the 'real' creatures form (say a gate spell or a trip to the creatures true home plane should crush and disgust any human ~ at least until the creature drops a 'baby' off at the Summoners doorstep :D ).
Well... you could always find some kind of degenerate who actually WANTS this (have you ever watched Cronenberg's 'Naked Lunch', for example? WARNING: not for the faint of heart/ stomach - and DECIDEDLY not for young people - Cronenberg is at his best/worst in this movie ...)
See my post above...
i see, so this is how in turns out when i leave things alone for a time :D
to be fair, i gave my new eidolon a +8 racial bonus on Profession(Concubine)...
gotta love the rules.
oh, one more thing: it's probably been asked before, but if the eidolon is an outsider, shouldn't it get Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiency anyway?
oh, one more thing: it's probably been asked before, but if the eidolon is an outsider, shouldn't it get Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiency anyway?
No because the Eidolon is a special case build your own outsider and there is specific Evolutions to use Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiency.
It makes you wonder. Why do summoners even go adventuring in the first place?
The more evolution points the more upgrades you get to your Cherry 2000.
It seems a little dirty doesn't it?
Uh. Yeah. (I can't believe I'm getting back into this.) To keep my feelings on this very, very brief: Love and Mind Control. These things ARE mutually exclusive.
It seems a little dirty doesn't it?Uh. Yeah. (I can't believe I'm getting back into this.) To keep my feelings on this very, very brief: Love and Mind Control. These things ARE mutually exclusive.
According to abusive boyfriends, love leads to mind control. According to summoners, mind control leads to love.
On a systematic basis, I don't see how they really differ.
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You disturb me, Shuriken
i am quite disturbing.
my eyes alone will disturb you, they are golden like a lion's and each eye has 2 slit like pupils that shift as i roll my eyes.
my face frequently defaults to creepy smiles. when no other emotion is felt.
my appearance will disturb you, though 21, most mistake me for a 12 year old girl. due to lack of endowment, the fact i'm asian, and that i am 5 foot 1 and wiegh 80 pounds
my taste in fashion will disturb you, i prefer to wear a black heavy wool kimono with matching tabi slippers, scarves, and padded bracers. it is very animesque. and i do it every day, every moment except when in the shower/bath.
the fact that i live off of my father will disturb you, he supports me, i occasionally may do filing for friends. but this is a rare occurence.
i live in northern california and have never attended a college course. but i do play d&d, i personally do not like 4th edition.
i graduated in one of the worst high schools you can attend. the benefit was work at your own pace. the other perks were fun friday and apathetic teachers that let you get away with anything, up to and including violence. it was one of the few high schools that let you whack other students upside the temple with a boken and give you postive grades for it. in fact, the harder you whacked that temple, the better the grades they gave. forcing someone into 2 hours of unconsciousness was an A+.
It seems a little dirty doesn't it?Uh. Yeah. (I can't believe I'm getting back into this.) To keep my feelings on this very, very brief: Love and Mind Control. These things ARE mutually exclusive.According to abusive boyfriends, love leads to mind control. According to summoners, mind control leads to love.
On a systematic basis, I don't see how they really differ.
Mind control is love.
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I think there's plenty of room for interpretation on exactly what an eidolon is and the nature of their relationship with their summoner, be it a guardian spirit, imaginary friend made real, etc.
But one idea I really like that relates to the subject of the thread(and where it has wandered), is the notion that as an outsider sharing the alignment of its caller, the eidolon will be waiting on the summoner's ass on the other side when he/she finally kicks the bucket.
Treat those eidolons well, folks!
I see there's only one definition of "love" on these boards .... O.o
Genki? Ewwww.... (I blame G4 that I know that word)
So i'm going to play my second summoner soon, finding this new class very interesting. But there are some things concerning the eidolon...
1.) The summoner and his eidolon communicate via the 'link' ability, but the eidolon has a base intelligence of 7, so he should be capable of actually speaking a language. So can the eidolon speak and if, what?
-> in my party, the eidolon had the ability to speak celestial, because the summoner was CG and so was, as by the rules, the eidolon.2.) What does an eidolon look like, or to be more accurate, what can it look like? The rules say, the physical appearance is up to you, but it has to be fantastical in some way. My last summoners eidolon was an biped anthropomorphic more-or-less-female fox/human with blue-white fur. Not very monstrous, but fantastical and good to handle in urban areas if equipped with some robes and hood. Possible?
3.)Can i love my eidolon? That's not an ethical question but more of a general rule-thing. The Eidolon can be a rather smart, charismatic and possibly even attractive (as far as I understand the rules, your eidolon could actually look like one of the viera race from FF12 or any other more-or-less fantastical but still kind of humanoid creature, as long as you do not imitate existing creatures). And if I can designate the eidolons appearance (presence and absence of certain body parts and how they function (i.e. retractable claws like a cat), there is no reason you could not have the same kind of relationship as with other outsiders, such as the succubus.
Again, that's not a 'can I bed my futa-furry-smexy-eidolon' question (GM's choice :D). But i wonder if the eidolon can have a true own personality, feelings and such, being more like a cohort than some animal comanion or ex-animal familiar.Your thoughts?
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
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So i'm going to play my second summoner soon, finding this new class very interesting. But there are some things concerning the eidolon...
1.) The summoner and his eidolon communicate via the 'link' ability, but the eidolon has a base intelligence of 7, so he should be capable of actually speaking a language. So can the eidolon speak and if, what?
-> in my party, the eidolon had the ability to speak celestial, because the summoner was CG and so was, as by the rules, the eidolon.2.) What does an eidolon look like, or to be more accurate, what can it look like? The rules say, the physical appearance is up to you, but it has to be fantastical in some way. My last summoners eidolon was an biped anthropomorphic more-or-less-female fox/human with blue-white fur. Not very monstrous, but fantastical and good to handle in urban areas if equipped with some robes and hood. Possible?
3.)Can i love my eidolon? That's not an ethical question but more of a general rule-thing. The Eidolon can be a rather smart, charismatic and possibly even attractive (as far as I understand the rules, your eidolon could actually look like one of the viera race from FF12 or any other more-or-less fantastical but still kind of humanoid creature, as long as you do not imitate existing creatures). And if I can designate the eidolons appearance (presence and absence of certain body parts and how they function (i.e. retractable claws like a cat), there is no reason you could not have the same kind of relationship as with other outsiders, such as the succubus.
Again, that's not a 'can I bed my futa-furry-smexy-eidolon' question (GM's choice :D). But i wonder if the eidolon can have a true own personality, feelings and such, being more like a cohort than some animal comanion or ex-animal familiar.Your thoughts?
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
+1
And thank you Wes for tricking me into searching for this thread
i am quite disturbing.
(lot of descriptions)
...I'm almost in love already !
(well, except the 'whack other people with a boken until they are unconscious' - now THAT is quite disturbing for me...)
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1.)My character's Eidolon is a spirit of destruction. Like the Hindu Shiva his purpose is to wipe away the old world so as to make a clean slate for the new world yet to come. Shiva is the dancer. He is smiling while caked in the ash of funeral pyres. He sees the cycle of life from birth to death as a cycle, a movement, a dance, and he whorls in that dance destroying what exists and leaving path for the new to follow behind him.
This one could be a neat Vudran concept, and would fit well with the preference for Eidolons with multiple limbs, and even damaging energy attacks (such as fire or acid enhancements added to melee attacks).
Cool. I think mixing up all four ideas might be a bit much, 'though. Having the 'memorial to his wife' being a facade that he's imposing over a very different entity, or a facade being worn by a somewhat sinister entity that likes to taunt him with the vision of what he's lost, would be cool, but combining that with a bifurcated entity of both destruction and creation would perhaps be taking it a step too far (and the given Evolutions don't really have a lot of thematically-appropriate stuff for a life-giving entity, IMO).
Perhaps the Summoner's initiation into the art had something to do with the death of his wife?
Perhaps she gave him an ultimatum to spend more time with her and 'in the world' as opposed to sequestering himself away with his studies of the other planes and occult matters, and her death came about while they were estranged, causing him to feel that the magic was all he had left, conjuring up her likeness and only succeeding in reminding himself of how the magic resulted in his losing her.
Perhaps his first inexpert attempt at summoning was the very deed that ended her life, and now his every summoning is colored by that act, and reminds him of how his lack of control over the forces he was conjuring caused her death. He doesn't *try* to make the Eidolon take on forms that remind him of her, but his guilt causes this to occur unconsciously, as he punishes himself for choosing the magic over her. This would create a sort of love/hate relationship with the Eidolon, since it killed his wife, and he keeps it bound to him as a form of self-punishment, a constant reminder of his tragic mistake.
The Eidolon itself might be a scary combination of child-like innocence, and soulless dispassion. It knows it killed his wife (but doesn't entirely understand why she doesn't just 'come back' the way it does 24 hours after being 'killed'), and it 'tries to make him feel better' by pretending to be her, unaware of how unwise and hurtful this is.
Can anyone please cite me where it says the Summoner can directly and unilaterally control its Eidolon's actions? I can't find any such reference in the text. The Summoner can certainly tell the Eidolon what to do, but the Eidolon has the option of saying "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that". Obviously that's not going to happen often, but there's nothing to suggest that Eidolons are mindless automatons (especially since they do have Intelligence scores), nor that the Summoner has absolute authority over them.
Can anyone please cite me where it says the Summoner can directly and unilaterally control its Eidolon's actions? I can't find any such reference in the text. The Summoner can certainly tell the Eidolon what to do, but the Eidolon has the option of saying "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that". Obviously that's not going to happen often, but there's nothing to suggest that Eidolons are mindless automatons (especially since they do have Intelligence scores), nor that the Summoner has absolute authority over them.
+1 This is an incredibly important thing to remember to all the DM's out there!
This is what I was mostly referring to:
However, given the dynamic of the summoner controlling its actions at his leisure...
I've seen this same sentiment several times from several posters in multiple threads. As far as I can tell, it's unfounded. I imagine it falls into the same pitfall as thinking the Eidolon can't use teleportation Spell-Like Abilities. The text says it is treated as a summoned creature, but the catch is that only specific summoning effects restrict the summonee in that fashion. It is not an inherent property of all summoned creatures.
You can see the actual restrictions on summoned creatures in the Magic (not Spells) section of the Core Rules, under Spell Descriptions: School (Subschool): Conjuration and Conjuration: Summoning. Specifically:
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
I've bolded the clauses the directly apply to Eidolons. Note that nowhere does it say they have to obey every order their Summoner issues. Note also that they can teleport on their own, as long as they stay within range of their Summoner.
i am quite disturbing.
(lot of descriptions)
...I'm almost in love already !
(well, except the 'whack other people with a boken until they are unconscious' - now THAT is quite disturbing for me...)
i haven't done that in almost 4 years, and i only did it to bump my grades higher. they gave extra credit for a class of choice for each one knocked out, if it lasted over 2 hours, it would come with an A+. i wasn't the only one who did it, i did towards semester's end for the report card spike. bump a 3.8 to a 4.0 by knocking out an unlucky bully or few for 2 hours. this gave me the extra credits in the class i was missing.