Don't Monks get enough special stuff?
A monk's primary advantage...
They don't need nearly as much equipment as the other classes. This trumps even the Wizard who if separated from his spellbook can't memorize new spells. The Monk is almost as dangerous naked as he is fully equipped. None of the other classes can boast this ability save for Sorcerers and Druids. Try and disarm a monk without cutting his hands and feet off.
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I'm not going to start the monk argument again. Only point you to a couple places.
Why Monks? A discussion of the problems of 3.5 monks.
Treantmonk's Guide To Monks. An optimization of the Pathfinder changes. I haven't read through them, but some people are still not convinced monks are viable now.
I'm not saying a Monk is as overall effective as a Fighter or whatnot... I'm just saying he has a distinct advantage that the other classes don't have. He even has an advantage over the Druid and Sorcerer in that while their spells and Wildshaping will eventually run out, his fists and feet never will.
Boot to the Head: @Will Special Ability primarily held by Monks.
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And for the most part we're saying that it isn't as much as an advantage as it sounds. Good for dealing with mooks if the party has been captured and stripped, but not for anything of equal CR. And spells running out means the party stops until the spells are back, so the infinite fists of the monk and infinite stabs of the fighter never comes into play.
But I'll stop there, because we won't get anywhere with rehashing the arguments. For the record, a monk was my first character, and I love the concept of the class. It's the execution that disappoints me.
heh. should troll be a PC race? i think so.
So because we are disagreeing with each other one or both of us is a troll? Do I understand you right? Because I always understood an internet troll to be someone who purposefully incited others to anger.
A monk's primary advantage...
They don't need nearly as much equipment as the other classes. This trumps even the Wizard who if separated from his spellbook can't memorize new spells. The Monk is almost as dangerous naked as he is fully equipped. None of the other classes can boast this ability save for Sorcerers and Druids. Try and disarm a monk without cutting his hands and feet off.
This is true. Unfortunately, I have never seen it happen in a game to the party. In D&D so many classes are dependent on equipment that this is a real nerf-bat to the party unless you are kind enough to place their gear nearby.
My own answer to the question is that the monks major advantages are not his offensive ability but his defensive ability: they have the best saves and best touch AC and evasion, which means whatever hits the party the monk is likely to be among those left standing and able to act. This alone makes the monk handy to have around.
As for Uncanny Dodge, I think it is thematic to monks, and wouldn't be unbalancing to them, and would work OK ... but they do have a lot of abilities as it is.
Why Monks? A discussion of the problems of 3.5 monks.
This is not a rant about how I don't think that kung fu belongs in my fantasy, I live in the country that invented the fortune cookie, and kung fu has always been a part of my fantasy.
That line always makes me laugh.
In my ongoing series of questions on "Why did the 3E designers decide to do X?" Now I turn to the Monk and the curious lack of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
It fits with Rogues and Barbarians, but thematically it also fits with Monk, who'd you think, being the wisdom based classed oriented around "being present in the moment" type of flavor, would be a natural candidate for both of these class features.
Is it that the 3E designers saw all the class features the Monk was getting and thought, "we can't give them those also, it would be unfair for the Rogue and Barbarian!" or perhaps "We need to distinguish between the classes and so to make the Rogue and Barbarian more special, we'll withhold it from the Monk."
It's been a head scratcher for me for quite some time, and now after a decade it's quite clear that the Monk is a bit behind a lot of the other classes, and so now it seems even more odd that it was left off their class sheet.
They already get the wisdom bonus to their AC even when flat-footed. If they got the wis and dex bonus they would basically be immune to being flat-footed for most intents and purposes.
That is just my guess by the way.
They already get the wisdom bonus to their AC even when flat-footed. If they got the wis and dex bonus they would basically be immune to being flat-footed for most intents and purposes.
That is just my guess by the way.
You have a very good point. On the other hand, the monk's defensive abilities are actually more of a strong point than their offensive abilities, and this might be a good way to enhance them.
They technically already have Uncanny Dodge, they do keep their Wisdom bonus to AC in situations where they lose their Dexterity bonus.
Besides, the game has to encourage multiclassing as much as solo-classing. If the monk wants Uncanny Dodge and the Improved version, just multiclass as Rogue. He's still a Monk, just one with a different form of monastic training.
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are also legitimate (if not 'official') swap-outs / alternative class features for a monk's evasion and improved evasion respectively.
Besides, the game has to encourage multiclassing as much as solo-classing.
But Pathfinder does just the opposite. They've given nearly every class a really good reason to take the class to 20 (everyone except Universalist Wizards and Clerics). That should maybe have it's own thread...
With the Monk, there are no longer multi-class restrictions. There are good reasons to stick with the class, but a few levels of rogue turn a monk into a very good scout. Getting to level 20 at monk can still be done ... you just do it at level 25!
Monks are the most unfriendly class for multiclassing more than a level or 2. Everything they got is level dependent, and much of it is difficult to synergize with other classes (although sneak attack is nice for a class than can stun people).
As for why they don't get uncanny dodge? Monks tend to be quite acrobatic, so I think that was what the designers were going for. That said, I think that diversifying monks is a good way to portray different martial arts styles. Trading evasion for uncanny dodge makes sense to me.
well.. just multiclass it with rogue I suppose, if someone really really wanted it in my campaign though (I dont like monk flavour much) A monk has a few abilities that can easily be substituted.
In 3.5 there also was a feat 'Eyes in the back of your head' or something like it, it should work well enough.
I think it was a bit less impressive than uncanny dodge, negating the + 2 flanking bonus for enemies only.
No Reason you cannot import the feat Monk Training or the Ascetic {class} feats from 3.5 to help counter the problems of monks multi-classing, just as you could import Practised Caster from 3.5 for casters who also lose out from multi-classing.
A monk's primary advantage...
They don't need nearly as much equipment as the other classes. This trumps even the Wizard who if separated from his spellbook can't memorize new spells. The Monk is almost as dangerous naked as he is fully equipped. None of the other classes can boast this ability save for Sorcerers and Druids. Try and disarm a monk without cutting his hands and feet off.
Which is true if you don't pass 8th level. Once you get to the point where everyone has magic items coming out of their ears, the Monk needs just as much stuff and what he needs is far more expensive.
I've found that consistently monk is my favorite class for any gestalt idea-- Monk/druid, monk/rogue, monk/cleric, monk/ranger-- but I'd never want to play a standalone monk. They suffer heavily from "anything you can do I can do better" syndrome.
well, you also have the fact that a fighter that concentrates on unarmed strikes is actually more deadly at it than a monk, even when both are naked.
I don't agree. Imagine your fighter has Full plate (which they should) and your group go attacked when resting at night. If your unarmed fighter jumped out without armor, he can't have as much AC as a Monk and can't run as far as them. Also Monk as Ki, so they can hit things that they can't be hit with normal attacks.
If your fighter choose to put on his armor quickly, the fight would be half way over already. So monk is special and useful is his own way, just every other classes.
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I don't agree. Imagine your fighter has Full plate (which they should)
Why? He can sleep in his chain shirt, or his breastplate if he picks up Endurance. (Which isn't hard.) He only loses out on 3 to 5 points of AC.
Also, totally glad Past Me had already handled this thread long ago.
Why? He can sleep in his chain shirt, or his breastplate if he picks up Endurance. (Which isn't hard.) He only loses out on 3 to 5 points of AC.
I know what you mean. You could sleep in breastplate but Monk with +5 Wis get +5 AC and their AC bonus depends on their level. At level 20, 10 AC without armor and 90 feet movement speed. Monk has moment speed and, if your team got jumped by archers who are far apart, your fighter can't charge beyond 60 feet, but your Monk can easy. And if your team is in a keep or in different rooms, Monk and get there to help your team faster than fighter could. So if any class ever need buff, fighter should have it first. (which I think they shouldn't have to, with a good team knowing what they are doing, fighter can shine in combat easy.)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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To seriously answer the OPs question, probably because in 1e monks didn't get anything like uncanny dodge. Barbarians did get an ability to react to surprise attacks in 1e. Neither barbarians or monks were in core 2e which is why I'm using 1e as the baseline. I'm not sure why rogues got it in 3e as well, I assume because their abilities looked a little sparse. This is probably also why barbarians get it at lower levels than rogues. Level by level, ability wise, the 3e monk is very similar to the 1e monk, who was one of the few 1e classes to get a special ability each level. They likely didn't even consider that it might need more stuff.
Yikes. Since monks don't have Uncanny Dodge, it's causing some problems in my game.
A Dex monk (or Dex PCs in general) basically gets crushed in my games, if they stand in the front and lose initiative without Uncanny Dodge.
So a monk is truly NOT a front line PC, they don't have the AC (no Uncanny Dodge) or hit points to deal with it (well).
How effective is the Monk if he and the Unarmed Fighter work together and watch each other's backs?
Maybe the Monk is supposed to be a team player.
It's just one of odd artifacts with regard to the Pathfinder monk. They get full BAB for flurry and maneuvers, but not for standard attacks and they don't get d10 hit dice. They can keep their Wis bonus to AC, but not their Dex bonus and still get sneak attacked.