RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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The three core classes that offer Animal Companions as a class feature (paladin, ranger, druid) all have spellcasting abilities that allow them to buff or heal their pet. The cavalier's animal is key to getting the most out of his class features, yet the cavalier himself has no way to augment or help out his mount aside from magic items and the occasional use of negating hits via mounted combat.
I ran four 8th-level encounters against four different chromatic dragons. PCs had 3 rounds to buff and included:
Group 1: Sorcerer, Rogue, Cleric, Ranger w/ Wolf
Tactics - ranger buffed wolf with barkskin (Rgr), resist energy (Rgr), magic fang (Rgr), Haste (Sor), Prayer (Clr)
Group 2: Sorcerer, Rogue, Druid w/Ape, Fighter
Tactics - druid's ape had breastplate, prot. energy (Dru), bull's strength (Dru), bear's endurance (Dru), Haste (Sor)
Group 3: Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin w/Big Cat, Fighter
Tactics - paladin's cat had shield other (Pal), resist energy (Pal), divine favor (Pal), Courage (Brd), Haste (Sor)
Group 4: Sorcerer, Rogue, Cleric, Cavalier w/War Horse
Tactics - horse affected by prayer (Clr) and haste (Sor)
In these fights, the cavalier's horse fared terribly (cooked at range from a quickly-recharged lightning breath, dropping cavalier into the dirt more than a full move away. Got one good charge attack in) and the wolf didn't do too much better, mostly helping the rogue get sneak attacks before being knocked down by a tail slap.
My gut feeling is that the cavalier absolutely needs more ways to protect his animal. Maybe this would be negating additional hits via mounted combat, maybe it would be an "armor training" like ability that allows his mount to gain more benefits from barding.
I'm curious if others are seeing the same thing.
The horse should've had Evasion at +10 Ref.(w/ haste & prayer) That doesn't do much for physical abuse, but it helps against being fried/zapped/melted, etc.
Against a CR9 Blue Dragon you'd need an 8+, CR13 = 13+ on the d20.
EDIT: Mounted Combat(Feat) allows you to negate one hit in combat per round as a Ride skill check. I'd argue against a dragon, in melee... not impressive, but it IS something.
And not everyone should have a pet as strong as another. With being a mostly full fighter, plus challenge, I'm actually concerned about the pet aspect as yet another power. It's kinda intended to be a horse but obviously people will use combat pets instead. "I'm a halfling cavalier with a worg" will be the first words out of some players' mouths.
If PCs only get by with buffs, the same will go for Mounts.
The Cavalier IS a CHA-based class, AND has plenty of skills, so UMD is an obvious choice here... But spell-casters should still be buffing the Mount just like any of the PCs. Simple 1st-3rd level spells do fine here. It should be said that Paladin levels stack here for the Mount/Companion (allowing teleport-retrieving the Mount 1/day @5th level Paladin) as well as Channel/LoH (with appropriate Order), so is an obvious Multiclass.
And not everyone should have a pet as strong as another. With being a mostly full fighter, plus challenge, I'm actually concerned about the pet aspect as yet another power. It's kinda intended to be a horse but obviously people will use combat pets instead. "I'm a halfling cavalier with a worg" will be the first words out of some players' mouths.
this is true we have done seen it with the paladin. I do not mind the pet being a bit weak, it's a freaking horse. Pull the dragon stunt on a normal horse, see how long he lasts
And not everyone should have a pet as strong as another. With being a mostly full fighter, plus challenge, I'm actually concerned about the pet aspect as yet another power. It's kinda intended to be a horse but obviously people will use combat pets instead. "I'm a halfling cavalier with a worg" will be the first words out of some players' mouths.
I think a more restrictive list is in order, I used a horse in my playtest and he contributed at times, but not to the point where he was overpowered. Something like horse, pony, dog at level 4. I think they were leaving it open for now, but given the rangers list is restricted, I cant imagine this list not being restricted in the final version.
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And not everyone should have a pet as strong as another. With being a mostly full fighter, plus challenge, I'm actually concerned about the pet aspect as yet another power. It's kinda intended to be a horse but obviously people will use combat pets instead. "I'm a halfling cavalier with a worg" will be the first words out of some players' mouths.
Velociraptor
With the whole rest of the party (Ranger, Druid, Cleric, and Druid) also being small and by level 4 on velociraptors of their very own.
I'd rather not see the Mount get amazing upgrades beyond what we see, because that would shift the class focus MORE towards to Mount, when from Jason's words on the subject, it right now IS designed as something that isn't going to always be useful. Certain options from Orders/Oaths that upgrade the Mount (granting it bonus Feats, for one) would ALLOW THE OPTION of a more powerful mount without forcing all Cavs to compromise for it. "Share Spell" and Spell Resistance just do not seem like appropriate options for a 100% non-Magical Class.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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What about something like this:
Share Defenses (Ex): While mounted, a cavalier is able to extend protective auras to his mount. Any magical effect that grants the cavalier a deflection bonus to AC, an enhancement bonus to natural armor, resistance to an energy type, or an armor or shield bonus from magical force grants that same bonus to his mount for as long as the cavalier remains mounted.
I'd probably go further and add spell resistance, concealment, and damage reduction to that list of shared effects.
It makes the cavalier's mount something other than just another buffed combat pet, but at the same time allows it to actually perform in battle alongside the cavalier against more powerful foes.
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My gut feeling is that the cavalier absolutely needs more ways to protect his animal. Maybe this would be negating additional hits via mounted combat, maybe it would be an "armor training" like ability that allows his mount to gain more benefits from barding.
I'm curious if others are seeing the same thing.
I wholeheartedly agree!
It seems the cavalier's mount was added as an afterthought. It is absolutely useless.
It seems the cavalier's mount was added as an afterthought. It is absolutely useless.
Huhwhat? It's no more "absolutely useless" than a druid's companion. The only thing druids get that cavs don't is Share Spells, which is useless to a cav anyway.
My gut feeling is that the cavalier absolutely needs more ways to protect his animal. Maybe this would be negating additional hits via mounted combat, maybe it would be an "armor training" like ability that allows his mount to gain more benefits from barding.
I'm curious if others are seeing the same thing.
I wholeheartedly agree!
It seems the cavalier's mount was added as an afterthought. It is absolutely useless.
I didnt see it as useless, I also didnt see it as particularly fragile, in fact it survived better then my cavalier did when I armored it. In a fight with a red dragon it was the only one in the party to dodge the breath weapon, and with evasion, it dodged it completely, my cavalier on the other hand was knocked out in the next round, the horse was still kicking (literally in fact).
It was also rather good in combat. Sure it didnt hit as hard as any member of the party, but when it was there it was a couple extra attacks that etched into the enemy pretty well. Trots (my mount) did a fine job of droping some goblins, and even took out a grizzly bear almost on his own in one encounter.
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I'd rather not see the Mount get amazing upgrades beyond what we see, because that would shift the class focus MORE towards to Mount, when from Jason's words on the subject, it right now IS designed as something that isn't going to always be useful. Certain options from Orders/Oaths that upgrade the Mount (granting it bonus Feats, for one) would ALLOW THE OPTION of a more powerful mount without forcing all Cavs to compromise for it. "Share Spell" and Spell Resistance just do not seem like appropriate options for a 100% non-Magical Class.
I completely disagree. A cavalier should be all about mounted combat, but in the interest of not beating a dead horse (no pun intended, 'cause you'll see a lot of dead horses in the wake of a cavalier PC), let's assume that only nonmagical options should be the option for a more powerful mount.
My recommendation, then, would be something along the lines of "The cavalier's mount does not have the share spell ability BUT the cavalier is treated as a druid that is FIVE levels higher for the purposes of determining the strength of their mount. See table X-XX for the expanded Animal Companion table for cavaliers of level 16 or higher (i.e. with equivalent druid levels of 21 to 25)."
There ya go. That's it. Voila. And you also give people a glimpse of the what an epic druid (21 - 25) would get in terms of animal companion! :)
I picture a Cavalier as being good a riding, well not just good but the best. They should be able to take any average mount and make it that much better. I don't feel a Cavalier needs special mount with special abilities. I see a Cavalier and starting with a war horse, progressing through other mounts like Griffons and on to dragons. I don't see a Cavalier with war horse cable of taking on a dragon.
I picture a Cavalier as being good a riding, well not just good but the best. They should be able to take any average mount and make it that much better. I don't feel a Cavalier needs special mount with special abilities. I see a Cavalier and starting with a war horse, progressing through other mounts like Griffons and on to dragons. I don't see a Cavalier with war horse cable of taking on a dragon.
There's a fascinating idea.
Lots of classes get pets, and using the same mechanics for them over and over has started to bore me. What if the Cavalier is just awesome on whatever mount happens to be available at the time? Skip the "specific" pet bond, and just give him on-the-fly mounted bonuses instead? This would also create more interesting multiclass options for classes that already have rideable pets.
I don't see a Cavalier with war horse cable of taking on a dragon.
Despite its classical mythological origin? St. George and the Dragon.
I don't see a Cavalier with war horse cable of taking on a dragon.Despite its classical mythological origin? St. George and the Dragon.
all in the size and age of a dragon. most woodcarvings of that place it as a small or medium dragon not a hard challange at the right level solo. sure not CR13
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Maybe i'm missing something, but a cavalier's mount doesn't seem any more fragile than a druid's companion. Sure the cav can't buff it himself, but he can ask his cleric, druid or wizard buddy to do so. It has decent hp and barding isn't that expensive. Pets can drink potions as well. So what are you going to focus on the scary man with a lance who has sworn to destroy you? Or his horsey?
So what are you going to focus on the scary man with a lance who has sworn to destroy you? Or his horsey?
The horse is an easier, larger target and makes the scary man with a lance a lot less mobile. The horse may evade a breath weapon, but will it evade a boulder being dropped on it? Hey, it works for Druids.
EDIT: Speaking of dragon mounts, you'd have to be level 15 before you'd even see a young brass dragon via Leadership AND it's a medium, so you had better be a small Cavalier. (8+ the Dragon's CR.)
The horse is an easier, larger target
No, it isn't. Actually, since companions actually have AC that scales directly with level, they're harder targets than their rider. There's also the little fact that the rider can make a Ride check to completely negate an attack a round without sacrificing any actions.
I see the Cavilier as being buffed by the mount. Call me crazy but the Damage they can dish out while mounted gets nice. Also do forget you can always Make oths to your Mount if I am not mistaken.
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The horse is an easier, larger targetNo, it isn't. Actually, since companions actually have AC that scales directly with level, they're harder targets than their rider. There's also the little fact that the rider can make a Ride check to completely negate an attack a round without sacrificing any actions.
Don't forget at 3rd level they gain evasion as well and improved at 14th
really by 14th level the horse has an natural armor of 22 and a dex of 18 making AC 26 with improved evasion.
I agree he is not easy to hit, also keep in mind he would be 14d8 +28 hp by then as well. He has more hp then some party members Fragile he is not
Now look at your mounted fighter with a 2 hd mount and tell me which one ya want
There's also the little fact that the rider can make a Ride check to completely negate an attack a round without sacrificing any actions.
Assuming he has the Mounted Combat Feat, as I mentioned in the first reply to this thread.
EDIT: I can make a 1st level Fighter with 13 DEX and a 23 AC, 26 is not a high AC for 14th level.
EDIT: I can make a 1st level Fighter with 13 DEX and a 23 AC, 26 is not a high AC for 14th level.
14th level? I can give you an animal companion that, without using ANY magic items, has 40 AC.
Ankylosaurus (12 dex, +11 natural armor, base), 14th level companion (+4 dex, +8 natural armor), full plate barding (+9 AC, max +1 dex). Now add in cheapo magic items like an amulet of natural armor, a ring of protection, changing the plate to mithril, and adding a few enhancement bonuses on the plate, and you easily and cheaply have a 45-50 AC on your animal companion. That's not counting any feats and stat increases from HD.
Even a standard horse companion would have 33 AC at level 14 without any magic items.
my numbers could be of, I did not double check em as I should have, but still all in all not fragile
OK,
My two cent's worth on a cavalier's mount. I think they should be able to buff their mounts over time. They know how to care for and train their mounts to the utmost. So, here are a few suggestions from me on it :
- A Cavalier's mount gains the Toughness feat after being under his care for 3 months (or when the Cavalier levels up, whichever happens first).
- Whenever the Cavalier's mount gains a hit-die, the mount gains maximum hit points from the hit die if the mount has been with him since the last time it received a hit die.
- At 8th level, a Cavalier qualifies for an Improved Mount, this is a standard mount with one of the following templates applied : Giant (to allow such animals as lions/tigers/wolves/boars), Advanced, Celestial, or Fiendish. Alternately, the Cavalier can obtain a non-standard mount from the following list Dire Boar, Giant Eagle, Elephant, Griffon, Bison, Dire Hyena, Dire Lion, Rhinoceros, Skeleton Horse (if alignment allows), Dire wolf, or Dire Wolverine. The GM may feel free to add other mounts who's CR's are 7 or less to this list. Additionally, the Cavalier may, if he has the Leadership feat, take a sentient mount (such as a Unicorn, Pegasus, Nightmare, or Wyvern for example) provided his alignment matches and the mounts CR is no higher than the Cavalier's level minus 1 (or his Leadership score, whichever is lower).
- At 14th level, a cavalier qualifies for a Greater Mount. This is a standard mount with one of the following templates applied : Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend, Half-Celestial. Alternately, it is a mount from the 8th level advanced list with one of the following templates applied : Advanced, Giant, Celestial or Fiendish. At this level, even if the Cavalier does not have the leadership feat, he may take a cohort mount that is a sentient mount (per the restrictions listed at 8th level with the leadership feat). When using this ability, the Cavalier calculates a Leadership score, but only applies it to his cohort mount.
What do you think? This makes his mounts much better, and different, than a Paladin's, and better than any animal companion. But, they are also THE preimminent mounted combatant, and an expert on mounts.
it also makes them magic, which is not the point.
it also makes them magic, which is not the point.
Not necessarily. Some of those are magic, some are not. It opens up the door to magic, but doesn't force it. The GM is the final arbiter.
But the paladin is the magic knight hand of god class. The caviler should not be at all, his ability should not be magic, he is a non magic class like a fighter and should stay such
But the paladin is the magic knight hand of god class. The caviler should not be at all, his ability should not be magic, he is a non magic class like a fighter and should stay such
He is not magic. In no way did any of my suggestions make him magic. What it said was he was such a mount expert that he could handle non-standard mounts, be they rhino's (which are not magic), elephants, giant or dire boars (again, non-magical), Bison, Dire Lions, etc. Remember, a Dire animal is not magical, they are prehistoric versions of animals you find around every day. Or at least that is what they have always been, primordial animals.
Did I put a few 'magical' ones in? Yes, but all are fairly standard in fantasy settings, giant eagles (arguably a pure animal), hippogriffs/griffons, skeletal horses (which, by the way, I LOVE for an evil Cavalier, the ultimate sort of twisted version of his own class, abusing an animal to death then having it raised as his new mount, how twisted and evil is that?). As to the really magical ones, like pegasi (which by the way are ALL OVER fantasy for mounted knights), nightmares (again, a really really evil cavalier), unicorns (again, also in fantasy for the chosen few good knights) or wyverns (dragon mounted). The half's are also not necessarily magical in and of themselves. Imagine a half-dragon horse. A winged scaly horse with a 3 INT, still an animal, but powerful and controlled by the Cavalier.
I really don't see your objection, almost every animal I suggested was either inherently not a magical mount, or if they were magical, required a cohort feat and are sentient.
As someone who has played a fighter specializing in mounted combat in D&D 3.5, I have no gripes about the cavalier's mount. The extra hit dice that your mount gets for being an animal companion alone give it a huge boost in durability when compared to a normal horse or riding dog. In my experience with non-animal companion mounts, higher level mounted combat characters have to hire an NPC herder to manage the half dozen extra mounts you have to take with you when you go on an extended quest. The cost of riding dogs can also really add up after a while.
There have been other threads where it has been discussed, but I'll repeat it here: I hope to see some clearification on the interaction of mounts / animal companions / familiars and the leadership feat in the Advanced Players Handbook. Additional Feats like "Improved Mount" etc. would also be nice to have.
This way a cavalier who thinks his mount to be too fragile could "upgrade" it within the rules.
all in the size and age of a dragon. most woodcarvings of that place it as a small or medium dragon not a hard challange at the right level solo. sure not CR13I don't see a Cavalier with war horse cable of taking on a dragon.Despite its classical mythological origin? St. George and the Dragon.
I just mean the flying vs a horse being stuck on the ground. The only place you really see a dragon not flying is indoors such as it's lair and chance are the horse won't fit in the cave in a manner that allow it to be used as mount. You could lead the horse in but charging with a lance I just don't see it.
Now if your party can use spells and tactics to get the dragon on the ground out side well charge away.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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actually, I'd like to see something like 'A cavalier with Mounted Combat may use his Ride check in place of a Reflex save for his mount once per round'. It's the same sort of thing, really: directing a creature you're riding to move in such a way as to avoid damage/duck behind a shield/whatever. Makes for a bit better time against that dragon, to boot.
(speaking of shameless plugs)
Check out Cities of Golarion in the Vigil section for a couple of nice mounted combat feats, including one similar to this one.