Do Humans still get a rough deal or Why play a human?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Spacelard wrote:

Some very intersting points have been put forward and somethings I have just been missing (probably due to my biased view point). I agree a floating +2 to a stat is good I was really please to see that but got disapointed when all races got an effective +2 to a stat albiet not floating. With the changes in the number of feats gained anyway from 3.5 the bonus feat seems diluted to me. Also the changes in the way skills are handled (again I do approve of this change) that extra skill point has been diluted as all races get it with their favoured class.

I come from a background where humans were special (ie they could enter certain classes where others couldn't) and the game has diluted this IMO for the sake of balance. Elves seem "king of the races" to me and I would really question that. Why would anyone (except me!) play a human wizard when an elf can do it soooo much better?

Elves make great wizards, that doesn't make them better than humans. There's not a huge difference between a wizard with 12 Con, 16 Dex, 20 Int or 14 Dex, 14 Con and 20 Int. Free stackable spell penetration is nice, but so is casting spells which SR doesn't apply. Weapon proficiencies are nice, so is an extra skill point per level. The races are balanced, one is not king, and human is a lot better choice for a lot of classes IMO, clerics and druids for instance.


Krom the Barbarian wrote:
Puny Lock No Match For Krom's Mighty Strengthiness!

The problem with that approach is that the stuff inside the chest is no match for the Krom either. Poor broken potions, they never had a chance.

Quote:
Krom Sad Innuendo No Longer Skill In Game. Him Very Good At Lost Art Of Innuendo. When Him Offer To Show Pretty Girl Him Hammer, Him Not Talking About Earthbreaker. Hur Hur Hur.

It still exists. Just a little hard to find. It got rolled into Bluff.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Weylin wrote:

Ah, Intimdation as the one and only social skill necessary. You just need enough ranks in it.

Want a date: Stare menacingly at the compteition until you are the only choice left. Dont need Innuendo.

Want to negotiate a treaty: sharpen your axe while straing menacingly at the enemy diplomat. Dont need Diplomacy.

Want to get a better price on a weapon: mention how it would be a shame to get so much blood on the wooden cases...while straing menacingly. Dont need Negotiation.

Want to take an opponent off guard: Roar your battle cry inhis face...while looking at him menacingly. Dont need Bluff for Feint.

Want to win at poker: Stare menacingly at your opponent and tell him surely that "2-4-6-8" is a Barabrian Flush and beats any hand there is. Dont need Bluff for Gambling.

-Weylin

You must be Mr Popularity in every town you visit.

It is a good strategy if you never plan on going back there again but you will brew up enemies every place you go. Enough of that kind of behavior is going to have the city watch following you whenever you are in town or just being denied entrance to the city as a trouble maker.


Older editions there was less reason to play a human. Humans really got nothing. Sure they could go up to any level, they had some restricted classes for a time a source book changed that, and they could dual class. From my experience level limits on non humans lead to one of two option when they were hit. The limits were either ignored with a possible Xp penalty applied or the game ended. For the restricted classes there was always a source book or house rule that bypassed that so Elven Paladins could exist. The Dual Class ability was cool but rare implemented due the massively high stats needed to pull it off. 17 in the prereq of the class you want to switch and 15 in the prereq of the existing class made it very difficult.

Now with Pathfinder I find the stat bonus brings Humans up to level of the non human races when it comes to stats. Their total bonus stat wise is equal though the non humans could have a higher stat in place of lower one but that's just moving the bonus around. I mean losing +1 hp per level due to constitution loss for elf so you can have a higher dex isn't any better no worse than not gaining or losing a stat. That extra feat is a great advantage. It allows humans to progress down feats that much sooner than non humans and that's quite powerful. The extra skill point can be the main reason you play a human if skills are what you need to create the character concept.

I find it quite hard not to play human. I mean that extra feat and skill point is usually something I can't pass up for few minor powers you get a first level that are static. That feat and skill point progress though all the levels. That extra feat allows you to take things you might at that level if you didn't have that bonus feat. It allows a rogue to start off with two weapon fighter and double slice if they want or dodge and mobility at first level. Now compared to the Elf rogue who has to wait till 3rd to get mobility that's quite the advantage.

I only play non humans when I want the flavor of playing a non human.


dulsin wrote:
Weylin wrote:

Ah, Intimdation as the one and only social skill necessary. You just need enough ranks in it.

Want a date: Stare menacingly at the compteition until you are the only choice left. Dont need Innuendo.

Want to negotiate a treaty: sharpen your axe while straing menacingly at the enemy diplomat. Dont need Diplomacy.

Want to get a better price on a weapon: mention how it would be a shame to get so much blood on the wooden cases...while straing menacingly. Dont need Negotiation.

Want to take an opponent off guard: Roar your battle cry inhis face...while looking at him menacingly. Dont need Bluff for Feint.

Want to win at poker: Stare menacingly at your opponent and tell him surely that "2-4-6-8" is a Barabrian Flush and beats any hand there is. Dont need Bluff for Gambling.

-Weylin

You must be Mr Popularity in every town you visit.

It is a good strategy if you never plan on going back there again but you will brew up enemies every place you go. Enough of that kind of behavior is going to have the city watch following you whenever you are in town or just being denied entrance to the city as a trouble maker.

Seemt o work for Krom and his hammer ;)


Humans got shafted in the final print of the pathfinder book. There is absolutely no reason why you should take a human over a half-elf. All the advantages humans once had have been very minimalized by the changes in the Pathfinder core rules:

Extra Skill : This is already available for everyone that sticks in their favored class. Sure humans get 2 instead of one but that "put anywhere skill" has lost some of its power.

Extra Feat : Still there but has been reduced in power. Since every gets a feat at every two instead of three levels, everyone gets many more feats than they did before. If you are going the path of fighter, a single feat barely adds anything to a class that gets a feat at every single level. Since everyone is getting more, this advantage isn't as powerful as 3.5

Favored Class : Paizo removed racial specific favored classes in the final printing. This human advantage was completely lost. On top of that, half-elves get Multitalented ability that lets them pick two favored classes. This should have been placed on the human template as well. This makes more sense for any other race to have, half-elves included.

Free Weapon Proficiency : Paizo dropped this from Beta to final print and I can't see why. Almost all the races receive bonus proficiencies for weapons, many of which are exotic and more powerful. Giving humans the single martial weapon proficiency of their choice was an awesome idea that really fit with the versatility idea of human. I can't imagine why it was dropped. It wasn't especially powerful, but it really fit the theme.

.

I'm starting another Pathfinder game soon and humans are the only race I intend to errata for my campaign. They didn't get anywhere near the list of awesome other races did to balance them out. And in a world where humans are the primary race, there should be a good reason to play them. All these changes are minimal, but really make the human a much more enticing option, without completely outpacing the other races.

Human Errata
------------

The following abilities are added to the human template.

Multitalented: Humans choose two favored classes at first level and gain +1 hit point or +1 skill point whenever they take a level in either one of those classes. See Chapter 3 for more information about favored classes.

Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one martial weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed. If the class chosen at 1st level already receives all martial and simple weapon proficiencies, then an exotic weapon may be chosen instead.

Skilled: Humans tend to spread out and learns many topics outside their main interests. At first level a human chooses a single skill that is treated as a class skill in addition to any other class skills the character already receives.

Notes
-----

Humans get the Multitalented ability which brings back the racial advantage they once had with picking classes. The fact that half-elves got this and humans didn't really seems almost like a typo were it not for the fact it got no mention in the errata.

Weapon training is brought back. While a human won't get a long list of 3-5 weapon proficiencies like you would with other races, you pick to pick from nearly anywhere that fits your character concept.

Skilled was added for the final boost of versatility for humans. Its powerful at low levels but gets weaker as characters level. Since a character keeps all his favored skills as he multiclasses and gains prestige classes, this doesn't work out to being especially powerful in the long run. In reality it lets a human pick a single skill that receives a +3 bonus. This is in line with the multiple skill bonuses that other races already receive.


Weylin wrote:
Krom the Barbarian wrote:

Krom Also Subtlest One There Is! When Him Go To Party And Make Innuendo* About Host's Fat Wife Him No Take -2 Circumstance Penalty To Bluff Check! Everybody Believe Krom When Him Hold Earthbreaker Hammer! Earthbreaker Hammer Give +2 Bonus To Everything.

To Answer OP's Question:

Many People Play Puny Human Because Puny Human Gets Bonus Feat! Krom Wish Him Have Cleave 2 Levels Sooner Than Him Did! Power Attack Lame 1st Level Feat, Cleave Useful Against Stinky Goblins!

*** spoiler omitted **

Ah, Intimdation as the one and only social skill necessary. You just need enough ranks in it.

Want a date: Stare menacingly at the compteition until you are the only choice left. Dont need Innuendo.

Want to negotiate a treaty: sharpen your axe while straing menacingly at the enemy diplomat. Dont need Diplomacy.

Want to get a better price on a weapon: mention how it would be a shame to get so much blood on the wooden cases...while straing menacingly. Dont need Negotiation.

Want to take an opponent off guard: Roar your battle cry inhis face...while looking at him menacingly. Dont need Bluff for Feint.

Want to win at poker: Stare menacingly at your opponent and tell him surely that "2-4-6-8" is a Barabrian Flush and beats any hand there is. Dont need Bluff for Gambling.

-Weylin

Krom Like Cut Of Your Jib! Krom Not Sure What Jib Is! But Him Sure Like The Cut Of Yours!


Humans do have it rough, however there is one key bonus to playing a human over other races. REINCARNATION!

I am playing a human that just got reincarnated into a halforc. I was a cleric so I put my +2 into wisdom, so when I became a half-orc I lost nothing really, but gained +2 str, darkvision, and half-orc ferocity.

The Exchange

I guess it is just on perspective. I like the feat choice and the floating +2 is nice. I also really like the extra skill point per level. In the pathfinder system, the extra skill point can mean a great deal since every skill costs 1 rank.


Whenever I look at building a character from a numbers point of view, I'm always deciding "Should I be race X, or human?".

Human is always an option in any build, simply because of the Feat alone.
Pathfinder made it even sweeter now that they get a floating +2... if the other races didn't have two +2's I'd probably have never chosen another race again.

That extra feat is powerful in swaying a powergamer's decision.

It's nice for the average player too. Being able to play a Barbarian with Cleave right at level 1 instead of having to wait about half a dozen game sessions is really nice.
Or playing a Fighter that can have their Improved Combat Maneuver feat right off the bat (yay! No AoO on your Trip attempts right at level 1!). Or grabbing Stand Still right at 1st level for a non-fighter based battlefield controller character (Paladin or Monk, etc).

Most of the games I've run or played in featured at least half of the characters being Human.

I don't see the Half-elf's Skill Focus feat changing that drastically.

Dark Archive

Clearly, this thread in itself proves that the races are fairly balanced (at least when trying to do what they do best). Some people think humans are über, others that they are weaklings. Truly, if they were either, most would agree...not agreeing means balance in my book.

Grand Lodge

Feat Progression has always been the make or break aspect of a character IMHO. Having an extra feat of your choice at 1st level opens up a lot of benefits to your character. This is where humans excel and is why humans have been the no. 1 played race since 3.0.

Now Pathfinder diluted them a little and since running pathfinder the half-elf has taken over as the new no. 1 played race (I have done crypt of the everflame and started council of thieves this past weekend and had a total of 4 half elves , 2 humans, 2 elves, 1 dwarf, and 1 drow out of 10 characters).

But even in pathfinder only a human can have cleave, improved trip, improved feint, improved overrun, improved disarm, stand still, die hard, mobility, improved great fortitude, defect arrows, improved grapple, scorpion style, improved iron will, improved lightning reflexes, mounted archery, ride-by attack, trample, acrobatic steps, far shot, precise shot, rapid shot, improved bull-rush, improved sunder, improved shield bash, greater spell focus, greater spell penetration, double slice, two weapon defense, or dazzling display at level 1 without relying on a bonus feat from class.

Many of these feats guarantee improved survival at the low levels or provide you with greater efficiency (compare a dwarven barbarian with power attack vs a human barbarian with power attack and cleave).


Many characters have more feats that they want, especially at lower levels, than they can have, as well as no real 'dump' stat. I'm playing a melee fighting social cleric as my PFS char...so I need strength, dex, and con to stand in the line of battle, wisdom and charisma for casting spells and channeling, and int to have any chance at skillpoints. However, using the favored class and human benefit, I was able to make int a dump stat (All the way to 7), and still have 3 skillpoints per level. And that bonus feat is _huge_. I chose to start with Endurance and Diehard, so I can sleep in my armor (Sure, not often a big deal, but when it is.....), and as a cleric with the healing domain, Diehard speaks for itself :). More feats I want: Combat Casting, any of the fighting related feats, any of the channeling related feats....even at the advanced Pathfinder feat progression, I'm never going to have 'enough' feats for everything that'd be good, so that bonus feat is not going to feel wasted.

Also, given that pathfinder starts to charge extra points in the pointbuy at 14 (instead of 15 in 3.5), having a -2 to a stat immediately caps you to either no bonus in your off stat (13 or less pointbuy, 11 or less after), or paying penalty/extra points just to buy up one of your low stats. Considering that for wizards and clerics, the races of elf and dwarf that give your spellcasting stat also includes a - to a stat you're going to want (Con, duh, and charisma is a lot more useful for a cleric in pathfinder....channeling=win, and without at least some kind of bonus, you can't even think about fitting in selective channeling)

I love the other races, don't get me wrong....but not only are human bonuses quite worth it, they're often superior for individual character builds. Like my social, melee fighting cleric (Who after 1 mod had an AC of 19...and that's only because I wanted a buckler for flexibility in a 'free hand' rather than the more typical heavy shield), 10HP, 3 skillpoints, and diehard!

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