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I was woundering what everyone thinks of my character concept for a Paladin of Asmodeus. The idea is my character lost his mother at a very early age. This left him to be raised by his father who was loosing his mind. He was raised to believe Asmodeus is a Lawful Good God all about self-sacrifice and protecting the weak. The idea was either Asmodeus was allowing him to do this for reasons unknown or Sarenrae is encourging this in the hopes the paladin might provide some inspiration for Asmodeus to change his ways and turn good.
Let me know what you think.
Greg
A Paladin is directly empowered by his patron in the same way a cleric receives thier spells. And I'm pretty sure that any sampling of the divine texts of the Asmodeuian faith (I'm assuming you're playing a Chelaxian?) would pretty much spell it out what the big A is all about unless both the father and the son were truly hopeless dense morons.
Now a moronically insane person who BELIEVES he's a Paladin of Asmodeus... that's another thing entirely.
Have to agree with LazarX. It works as a backstory that the character discovered the truth and turned away to someone more in keeping with his ideals (Saerenrae if he feels the need for redemption for his past worship, Adabar if he's still more focused on the Law than the Good or Ioemdae if he goes for what he believed Asmodeus to be) but tries to redeem those who worship his ex-religion rather than smiting them. But I can't see Asmodeus being able to keep a Paladin around. I mean, the fact that pretty much every single priest he goes to sets off his spider-sense is going to clue even the most moronic character eventually.
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Nothing in the RAW says it won't work. Go for it and role-play to your heart's content(until one os Asmodeus's Clerical Demons rips it out and shows it to you! ;p) Seriously, why not play him like that? There was an entire thread a bit ago about paladins worshipping gods two steps away AL wise, and I couldn't find a decent argument that didn't break down into "My opinion is that paladins can worship X god because I have never seen any paladin do so."
Do it, enjoy it, and convert if you feel the need to.
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The character is not crazy. Very dense yes (7 Intelligence, 7 Wisdom). He stays with his faith because he believes it to be true. Others of Asmodeuse's faith that he encounters are mislead or choose to pervert the faith and he must smite them down with his patrons true might!
He is driven by his faith which was pounded into him from age 4 to 20 (human), which is how old he is now (1st level), and like I was explaining his actual patron could be Sarenrae trying to redeem Asmodeus. Im not saying Asmodeus will change, fat chance, just that she is hoping it will.
And why doesn't Saerenrae just reveal that she's providing the power to draw the noble soul away from damnation and hellfire? What does she gain by this? As Asmodeus knows this moron isn't working for him, why should he change? If anything, Saerenrae is helping Asmodeus' PR campaign.
I think it works alright, particularly with 7 Int, 7 Wis. It's highly doubtful he'd *believe* even a direct manifestation of Sarenrae, that his chosen deity isn't as holy as he'd like (do I need to point to real life for examples?)
I do think a LG god is more likely though (but Sarenrae works, redeemer and all).
ll he would not gain some powers. As your god could not grant the good based one..smite and such and it has been stated a few times in Golarion{sp?} One step is the rule.
Besides that you could not be involved with any rite at any church of your god without finding out and I can not see how you can stay LG
A few things
As a general rule, only lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good gods can have paladins, in other words.
I'm saying that a paladin has to be lawful good. That doesn't mean he's an agent of a deity, but if he DOES worship a deity, he should be devout and dedicated to said deity, which means that if he worships a deity who's too far from lawful good, he'll be drifting from his alignment as a sheer facet of his daily devotions to said deity.
A paladin who doesn't necessarily worship a specific deity and instead wants to be a representative of the ideals of Order and Good can still do that, but even then, if he regularly engages in acts that would do Cayden Cailean proud, he's NOT representing the ideals of Order and will stop being a paladin.
So if you are a good follower of your god are are not a paladin that simple
The character is not crazy. Very dense yes (7 Intelligence, 7 Wisdom). He stays with his faith because he believes it to be true. Others of Asmodeuse's faith that he encounters are mislead or choose to pervert the faith and he must smite them down with his patrons true might!
I think such a character would fall the first time he smote an entire temple full of priests of Asmodeus for being evil rather than doing evil. Wouldn't that be an evil act with regard to his code of conduct? Would the necessity to seek atonement every time he does it eventually affect the decisions of a character with sevens in both intelligence and wisdom?
As much as I like your character concept, I agree with others that I just don't think it is really plausible, especially in Cheliax. I see Paladins as being part of an order for their deity, and the Church of Asmodeus is just not going to put up with your character for very long. (unless they are using you - and letting you think you are a Paladin in order to get close to other victims)
Here is my suggestion: if you are starting your character at 1st level, create him as a 1st level fighter, finally going out on his own with his personal beliefs and intentions of joining the Church of Asmodeus and becoming a Paladin. Even if the Church is using you, I'd still only make him a Fighter (as you aren't going to get Paladin abilities thru Asmodeus)
Your character will learn very quickly that it isn't going to work and will have to re-evaluate what he is going to do. At that point, he can travel from place to place to find a LG Church of Asmodeus (good luck with that) or end up converted to a more appropriate religion (Iomedea?)
Good luck.
Jonathan
Hey, if your DM is okay with it, roll with it. Don't let these naysayers tell you that story isn't appropriate in their games. As long as it is in your group, it's street legal.
He's not asking if it is legal or appropriate for his game. He is asking what people think about the idea.
Let me know what you think.
See?
I am just curious on how the Hellknights fit into your character's world view.
Your humor detector needs tuning there, d. ^_^
What is this hugh-more you speak of?
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When I created a Paladin of Arazni and wanted people's opinions on that. Most people started going "You can't do that, Arazni's dead!"
Well, technically, she's undead. But still, I felt that an order of sacred knights devoted to saving their goddess from evil and restoring her to her original power was an intensely interesting idea, so I created a whole organization (or three) that held Arazni in high esteem (or did so at one point), despite (or because of) her Undying Corruption.
So, I say, if it makes sense for you, your character, and your DM. If its an interesting, entertaining, and enthralling idea for you, go with it. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun, and as long as you're not breaking the mechanics of the game, you can write your story anyway you want to. :P
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One thing I would suggest is coming up with a full explanation as to where his beliefs came from. This paladin is pretty unobservant and dimwitted to come up with an entire belief system on his own. Especially one so off kilter to the original. That said, a cleric/rogue of some sort that has been fleecing your family for years, might make for a good start, or whatever. Just have fun with it, but having that will help everyone else by not instantly taking them out of the setting. Otherwise, there isn't any reason it couldn't be done. At least not by the rules, strictly read.
I think this is possible. Now, PFRPG does state that paladins get their powers from "virtuous deities". In older editions it was stated that paladins (and clerics as well) did not need to revere a specific deity and still gain their powers. If you take this as starting point, the character is deluded, probably by his fathers skewed world view (whereever that comes from). Now, between his fathers strange viewpoints and his own intellectual limits, they concocted an expanation working for them, with the son playing the role of a single-minded adherent to this view taking up a crusaders mantle. It is more a case of doing the right things for the wrong reasons. In the end, he works for good, even if based upon a wrong world view. If this is sponsored by a god, then the god does not play fair, which would probably not be lawful good.
If he ever comes upon a undenialable proof that Asmodeus was, is and always will be evil, this will probably be the end of him being a paladin. Of course, the clerics of Asmodeus will try to use him as a pawn, and with him being quite simple, they could succeed for a long time.
This could make for a very interesting role-playing challenge.
Stefan
If I were Asmodeus I would absolutely empower paladins who wanted to serve me. I could come up with a million jobs for them to do that wouldn't go against their code but would still serve my purposes. :D
Okay, I can see the logic of the Asmodean Heresy that the paladin subscribes to. I can even see theologians who would see merit in it except for the fact that in D&D you actually can get the gods on the phone and ask if the theology is correct.
Now the question here is, if we're dealing with Asmodeus as the Father of Lies, did he divinely inspire dad's heresy? Or did he just giggle and sign off on it when it came across his desk? And is he actually providing the power to the paladin, or is the power coming from some other god or goddess who's trying to help the incredibly dumb and ditzy young paladin?
There's also the question of, if the paladin feels he's sinned against his god, who exactly is going to take his confession and provide theological reassurances and/or penance and cast that Atonement spell?
If I were Asmodeus I would absolutely empower paladins who wanted to serve me. I could come up with a million jobs for them to do that wouldn't go against their code but would still serve my purposes. :DGive us three, then. I'd sincerely like to see where we can go with this.
The paladin code, as per page 63-64 of the PFRPG:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Here's three ways in which Asmodeus might use these rules to make for himself a paladin. There are, in fact, millions of other ways.
1. Breaking a lawful contract is a Chaotic act. Asmodeus, as god of contracts, needs someone to go into all of those Good societies and enforce random contracts. All those unions need negotiators, ne? After all, striking is bad for business. As the paladins of Abadar stand there and demand people get back to work for the Good of Business the paladin of Asmodeus walks up and forces people back to the table for negotiations. And now you have this whole union backing away from this Abadar guy who would work them to death in order to keep the gold flowing, instead running to the arms of the god who helped them all negotiate a better contract that serves them all.
2. The Worldwound is a Chaotic Evil blight upon the world that Iomedae is mismanaging by her haphazard tossing paladins at the problem. Any quest that helps deal with that problem helps save the world from demons, helps undermine the demons that oppose Asmodeus in his Lawful Evil glory, and most importantly helps spread the good word of Asmodeus as tales of this paladin's exploits spread in taverns via bard.
3. Take an evil dictator, one who lawfully ascended to the throne, who needs to get his evil plans done as quickly as possible. A paladin would be bound by his oath to not only heal the injured for free and make sure all the slaves got fed, but when that one old guy dramatically falls from exhaustion the paladin would then take up the slave's yoke to finish their leader's glorious plans on time. It bolsters the morale of the workers to watch their paladin and protector not only keep them safe but also help them by doing not only his own share of the work but the share of the infirm as well.
True Asmodeus could just get any of his standard followers to do many of these things. But why waste resources (valuable or otherwise) on tasks when you can dupe Good people to do it for free? Especially if they're being led by your one single solitary paladin. Because why would any of these poor Good saps ever doubt a paladin? By his own code of conduct he cannot lie!
Under Piazos stewardship, dragon printed an article on 'paladins' of other alignments, just take that article (if you can find it) and just adapt the rules. Basically it boiled down to a slightly different spell list and smite good, not evil.
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Someone asks for opinions on a character concept and people automatically quote someone else. How are someone else's words youe opinion? How are rules?
The OP was asking about a concept, aand clearly stated all the reason his character believed Asmodeus was a good god. If someone put that much work into a character, I'd allow it, and ask the player if he would like his character to learn the truth or not later on.
Another way to look at this. Liriel Banere(may have spelled that wrong). Evil or Neutral? Chaotic or Lawful? Your answer depends on how you envisioned her, and how her choices were described.
Well I was one that quoted. The issue is it goes agiest setting for one. But that is between him and his DM. However his powers are in part granted by good powers. An evil god just has no access to them. But really if his DM is allowing non good paladin(which is how this sounds to me) can hand wave that as well
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Well I was one that quoted. The issue is it goes agiest setting for one. But that is between him and his DM. However his powers are in part granted by good powers. An evil god just has no access to them. But really if his DM is allowing non good paladin(which is how this sounds to me) can hand wave that as well
Nothing I have read so far says anything about the character being evil.
If I were Asmodeus I would absolutely empower paladins who wanted to serve me. I could come up with a million jobs for them to do that wouldn't go against their code but would still serve my purposes. :DGive us three, then. I'd sincerely like to see where we can go with this.The paladin code, as per page 63-64 of the PFRPG:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.Here's three ways in which Asmodeus might use these rules to make for himself a paladin. There are, in fact, millions of other ways.
Let me put my hand to this....
1. As a Fallen Angel, former Force of Good and all that, Asmodeus used to be in the business of sponsoring paladins, and a contract is a contract. There's likely some order chartered long before he went off the reservation who's still worshipping him the old way, and while it may rankle him, he'd never break a contract, and his contract with that order is still in force. Beside, when those paladins fall, it's a hell of a lot easier for them to be blackguards in his employ.
2. Like humans, gods can be a mixed bag of alignments. While Asmodeus is evil on the whole, he has soft spots for certain things. Certain paladins are on this list.
3. The heretical rumors are actually true: Asmodeus isn't evil. He's an angel sent down to Hell to act as warden, a cold and sacred duty, and as such is perfectly within his rights and powers to sponsor paladins. The kid's wacky-assed father was actually a divine prophet who saw the Truth, and all the demonologists in Cheliax are the real heretics. As for why a Lawful Good angelic being would deal with demonologists, well, if a bunch of criminals walked into a warden, confessed their crimes, then asked for a few trivial perks in exchange for them submitting to prison for the rest of eternity? Seems a good deal for goodness. And if a few of them are scared straight? Even better.
Someone asks for opinions on a character concept and people automatically quote someone else. How are someone else's words youe opinion? How are rules?
The OP was asking about a concept, aand clearly stated all the reason his character believed Asmodeus was a good god. If someone put that much work into a character, I'd allow it, and ask the player if he would like his character to learn the truth or not later on.
My opinion:
If I was the GM, this would be a tough sell, with a very strong likelihood that I would reject this character concept.
And you'll notice that I cite no rules whatsoever. That notwithstanding, yeah.. "NO".
As people have mentioned previously in the thread, sincere worship of one diety done in the name of another diety (the Tash versus Aslan reference, where good in the name of Tash is taken into account by Aslan), would have some merit with me. I would want the player to understand that on some Meta-level, lest they think I "messed their character concept up" at a later point.
I'm not saying it's impossible for me to accept this characer concept, but it would have to be an exceptional player. Not a casual one, or somebody I didn't know well.
As a player at the same table, I'm not sure I wouldn't buck and just walk away. Again, mitigated by my trust in the GM and the paladin player.
All my opinion, and not relying on RAW whatsoever.
Frankly, the only reason I see for Asmodeus to put up with this would be in order to corrupt the paladin. Not undermine their adherence to law, but weaken their faith in the inherent goodness of people. Because from his point of view, Law is necessary because people aren't good; and for Law to work effectively it must not hindered or fettered by altruism and moral conviction. So if this paladin suceeds, it ultimately undermines Asmodeus to some small degree. That might be an amusing intellectual pursuit or game for a while, but as the paladin rises in power there will come a time when 'enough is enough'. For me, it really depends on whether I can trust the player to be willing to role-play into that corruption of faith. If I can trust them to role-play temptation. I wouldn't require them to lose their convicition, but they might have to convert to a new religion if they don't want to change the core of their character's beliefs. There is actually some good role-playing possiblilites there, which is why I don't speak in absolutes of never considering it.
But, in my opinion, a god does not invest power in someone who will ultimately undermine them. And make no mistake, I don't care how your parse of justify the "LAW" aspect of Asmodeus, he is "EVIL" with a captial "E". He rules over "HELL". LAW does not exclude the CORRUPTION OF GOOD.
If a GM didn't question this strongly, and enforce some really challenging role-playing situations, then the GM would not be making the player be responsible for their choices and actions.
Conclusion: This had better be an exceptional player and an exceptional GM, because 95% of the time I would say this concept (in general) is unacceptable.
I'm going to refrain from direct critique of the concept of the original poster, so I'm speaking to the idea in general.
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ll he would not gain some powers. As your god could not grant the good based one..smite and such and it has been stated a few times in Golarion{sp?} One step is the rule.
Besides that you could not be involved with any rite at any church of your god without finding out and I can not see how you can stay LG
Hate to prove you wrong... but
As a general rule, only lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good gods can have paladins, in other words.
Meaning that exceptions can exist.
I'm saying that a paladin has to be lawful good. That doesn't mean he's an agent of a deity, but if he DOES worship a deity, he should be devout and dedicated to said deity, which means that if he worships a deity who's too far from lawful good, he'll be drifting from his alignment as a sheer facet of his daily devotions to said deity.
This part is very true, however what the poster clearly stated was that his beliefs and devotions are all good, meaning that his daily devotions are keeping him lawful good. As opposed to someone who is actually worshiping the true asmodeus, in which case oh yeah, they'll fall in a heartbeat.
Let me put my hand to this....
1. As a Fallen Angel, former Force of Good and all that, Asmodeus used to be in the business of sponsoring paladins, and a contract is a contract. There's likely some order chartered long before he went off the reservation who's still worshipping him the old way, and while it may rankle him, he'd never break a contract, and his contract with that order is still in force. Beside, when those paladins fall, it's a hell of a lot easier for them to be blackguards in his employ.
2. Like humans, gods can be a mixed bag of alignments. While Asmodeus is evil on the whole, he has soft spots for certain things. Certain paladins are on this list.
3. The heretical rumors are actually true: Asmodeus isn't evil. He's an angel sent down to Hell to act as warden, a cold and sacred duty, and as such is perfectly within his rights and powers to sponsor paladins. The kid's wacky-assed father was actually a divine prophet who saw the Truth, and all the demonologists in Cheliax are the real...
These aren't bad ideas Kevin, but I see this as adjusting the God or the Cosmology to suit the character concept. That's a slippery slope.
Reviewing the previous posts, I think there's a fundamental difference in why some of us see Gods as having Paladins, and on a whole, worshippers.
If a God needs someone to run odd jobs, sure.. why not trick a paladin? I see where those posters are coming from.
But, is that what Gods are about in the strictest sense? I won't deny that in a fantasy RPG, having mortals carry out your agenda on the mortal plane does play a part.
But wherein plays the part of worship and the collection of souls? That's what starts to get lost in these discussions.
There is also the relative value of a soul.
I'd argue the soul of a truly good and noble person has more value than a handful of weak and mediocre ones.
ll he would not gain some powers. As your god could not grant the good based one..smite and such and it has been stated a few times in Golarion{sp?} One step is the rule.
Besides that you could not be involved with any rite at any church of your god without finding out and I can not see how you can stay LG
Hate to prove you wrong... but
As a general rule, only lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good gods can have paladins, in other words.Meaning that exceptions can exist.
True but James was talking of CG not LE, Not Evil as in I rules hell, I am lord of all devils I have human sacrifices and Contacts to damn mortals to Hell LE. In fact he used Amodaus as an example of just how well Imposable that gods chances of having a LG paladin was
So no I am not wrong.Besides the rules say you drawl some power from good. LN can grant good powers or negative powers. LG and NG grant good powers.
Where is your Evil god granting the good from? If you follow a god that god grants your powers. LE is incapable of doing so. Now if ya want to allow LE paladins well more power to ya. But as it stands your LE god can not have paladins
Edit: Not to be to confessional but I find the whole LG paladin of a LE God a shoddy work around to the AL restriction. I would also find LG fighter of a LE just as absurd. Every time this comes up it comes off as I don't wanna be LG! well play something else. The Ideal that a LE god has paladins where as even CG can not {normally} is just silly. No matter how you look at it , the ideal behind it just does not work unless you throw the whole AL system out the window. Even then it's a streach
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Well I was one that quoted. The issue is it goes agiest setting for one. But that is between him and his DM. However his powers are in part granted by good powers. An evil god just has no access to them. But really if his DM is allowing non good paladin(which is how this sounds to me) can hand wave that as well
dude you have got to stop saying that, it's rude as hell and rather insulting. The OP clearly said he intends the paladin to be lawful good. So you throwing in a line like that is really really bad form and insulting.
Edit: Not to be to confessional but I find the whole LG paladin of a LE God a shoddy work around to the AL restriction. I would also find LG fighter of a LE just as absurd. Every time this comes up it comes off as I don't wanna be LG! well play something else. The Ideal that a LE god has paladins where as even CG can not {normally} is just silly. No matter how you look at it , the ideal behind it just does not work unless you throw the whole AL system out the window. Even then it's a streach.
That's fine if that's the way you want to see it. I honestly think people who take this view are being remarkably simplistic and ignoring both sentient nature and sentient gullability. I don't however follow up posts by people who think that with a line along the lines of:
Well, sounds like he plays the world like the old GIJoe cartoon.
I have not said anything insulting. The thing is he can not stay LG and be what he wishes to play at all. Unless he is willing not to play a paladin past level 1 (if he makes it that far) he just can Not stay LG at all.
So it comes down to playing a NON LG paladin or a Fighter who is not LG. I am not insulting him I am just stating what will happen if his DM plays strict. LG only paladins. You simply can not follow a LE god and stay LG
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Just to help those who think Im playing a Paladin following Asmodeus as he truly is below is part of his faith and what he believes Asmodeus represents.
The Five Point Star: Represents the five aspects a paladin should be a beakon of.
-The Great Negotiator: Arguments and conflicts should be solved by discussion and compromise when ever possible and one should never weasel out of an agreement.
-The Hand of Justice: Criminals should be punished and when the local judicial system fails to do so one should seek to smite the wicked.
-The Seeker of Truth: Always seek to find the truth of things and to never lie even if it might endanger oneself.
-The Selfless One: The strong should always be willing to do what is necessary for the greater good even laying ones life on the line.
-The Creator All: One should strive to create or nourish life such as taking up a craft or tending to a garden.Colors of Asmodeus
-Black: This represents the façade the Great One must put on. It also represents the cruelness of fate in making him a fiend.
-Red: Represents the blood he sheds for others.What Asmodeus has done for humanity:
-With the help of the other gods constructed the whole of the multivirse.
-Used all of his power to imprison Rovagug and in doing so save the world.
-When the gods needed one of their own to stay in Hell to make sure the wicked were punished and to keep the devils in line, Asmodeus volunteered because he thought no others could handle the harshness of hell.
-Created the ninth level of hell so that he could keep himself away from the fiends in the other layers because he dispised them.The philosophy of Asmodeus is “The strong shall protect the weak”.
Asmodeus is often referred to as “The Lonely One”.
Greg
great concept, sounds fun, if your DM lets run with it (i will,.. but i will have fun making it sure you worked for it) then do it...
what the dommunity think is the community... your game is between your DM and you and your others players, so have fun
of course Pathfinder society would not acept a character like this... but besides that... yeah I will beleive a goody two shoes-rack innocent-half stupid (mind you int 7, wis 7) would have a hard time believing even Asmodeus (and why the hell would he denay himself pelasure of watching this guy/gal working for him in that way?) that he is not good..
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I have not said anything insulting. The thing is he can not stay LG and be what he wishes to play at all. Unless he is willing not to play a paladin past level 1 (if he makes it that far) he just can Not stay LG at all.
So it comes down to playing a NON LG paladin or a Fighter who is not LG. I am not insulting him I am just stating what will happen if his DM plays strict. LG only paladins. You simply can not follow a LE god and stay LG
their game, their call...
it soudns to me he wants to play a LG character with a misguided idea of about a good... doing good in name of a god who is not good at all...what our kniwght friend is saying is that you simply didn't cared to understand what is the OP interest and wishes, butjust saw that paladin must be LG (which he would be playing) serving a LG god (which HIS character beleives he/her is serving)
if his DM lets him play with something like that, and they have fun... what is the problem... real life showedus that there were people believing themselves to be LG, serving a LG god... and spreading evil in the eyes of others... Inquistion for example... for a true believer it was their DUTY to save others souls... and if they were told that torture was good for their soul... how the heck would say no to it?
yes... there were also evil men taking advantage, other takking pleasure of the pain, others using it for political advantage... still some believed misguidedly... adn in the words of C.L. Moore: "in many ways it was a naiver world"