From Monte Cook's Top 10 Rules of DMing:
"It's your (group's) game. It's not the game designers' game, it's not the module writer's game, it's not the message board regulars' game or the game shop owner's game. Do what you (and the players) want."
Your paladin is a highly irregular concept, yes, then again, isn't Asmodeus the lord of lies and treachery too? (a lie-by-omission is still a lie, and his contracts are full of those). Few things I think would delight him more than a self-deluded paladin paying him homage or even worse, creating -converts-, sure none of those converts could ever get cleric levels due to the one-step alignment issue, but still it would amuse him for as long as it lasted.
Still, I see a severe crisis of faith in this paladin's future if he ever gets in touch with the real clergy of Asmodeus (something highly unlikely in Varisia, but still I don't rule out the possibility) unless they decide to play smart and hide their true colors in order to manipulate him (in the best tradition of the Catholic church during the cruzades).
In fact, I agree. I just think that "in the long term" can also mean "Beyond the scope of the campaign". Speaking as a GM,I could easily imagine that I'd allow this character without doing anything to open his eyes. And at the end of the campaign, that I'd present the player an epilogue in which Asmodeus (or one of his servants) visits the hero at his deathbed showing him the future he created with his deeds, how his well-intentioned plans have led to horribly perverted outcomes, how he made the world worse, all the time thinking he'd serve a lawful good god.
Could easily serve as the seed for the next campaign, now that I think about it.
Well, there you've got a theological argument along the lines of "Brimstone and Treacle." I won't spoil the movie, except to say that the plot is this: A horribly evil and selfish young man does heinous evil acts; however, fate conspires to have each of his evils lead to a far greater good.
The question is, is the protagonist of "Brimstone and Treacle" still a blackguard, because he accomplished good in the end?
As for the paladin with the horribly perverted outcome, anyone see the season finale of this past year's "Supernatural"?
But with the paladin, I'd have to say that, theologically, if he did all his good deeds with a joyous heart, not realizing he'd been a pawn of evil, and if he were crying tears of repentance at the end, well then, the forces of goodness would still get to claim his soul, and that would be the one prize Asmodeus couldn't get.
But with the paladin, I'd have to say that, theologically, if he did all his good deeds with a joyous heart, not realizing he'd been a pawn of evil, and if he were crying tears of repentance at the end, well then, the forces of goodness would still get to claim his soul, and that would be the one prize Asmodeus couldn't get.
In the case of all that a paladin could do, I don't feel Asmodeus would mourn the loss of that one soul for long in light of being able to take credit for all the paladin's actions in life and the repercussions thereof.
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For me, I like having real gods, but I also like having real people, and people do crazy, nonsensical, BS stuff all the time.
That reminds me of a blog-type article up on Monte Cooks website where he talks about how people are so careful to have characters and NPCs not do anything that 'seems unrealistic' or 'out of character' and then he'll run into some woman at the Home Depot wearing a feather boa and realize that the real world doesn't play by the same assumptions.
Still doesn't mean that the absurd should be commonplace, 'though, unless the game is Toon. :)
But with the paladin, I'd have to say that, theologically, if he did all his good deeds with a joyous heart, not realizing he'd been a pawn of evil, and if he were crying tears of repentance at the end, well then, the forces of goodness would still get to claim his soul, and that would be the one prize Asmodeus couldn't get.In the case of all that a paladin could do, I don't feel Asmodeus would mourn the loss of that one soul for long in light of being able to take credit for all the paladin's actions in life and the repercussions thereof.
Watch "Faust." If the paladin's soul was the real prize he was playing for, then hell yeah, he's going to regret it. Causing a nice plague and a couple orgies along the way is fun, but if you don't get the prize you were aiming for, they're not much consolation.
It's like having a brilliantly played chess game except for that part where you lose in the end.
But with the paladin, I'd have to say that, theologically, if he did all his good deeds with a joyous heart, not realizing he'd been a pawn of evil, and if he were crying tears of repentance at the end, well then, the forces of goodness would still get to claim his soul, and that would be the one prize Asmodeus couldn't get.In the case of all that a paladin could do, I don't feel Asmodeus would mourn the loss of that one soul for long in light of being able to take credit for all the paladin's actions in life and the repercussions thereof.Watch "Faust." If the paladin's soul was the real prize he was playing for, then hell yeah, he's going to regret it. Causing a nice plague and a couple orgies along the way is fun, but if you don't get the prize you were aiming for, they're not much consolation.
It's like having a brilliantly played chess game except for that part where you lose in the end.
In that case it is imperative that the paladin remain a pawn. Even if it means preventing him from reaching the opposite side of the board.
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My questioin is - And? What is the problem with this. If done right
It's exactly the last three words some of us are concerned about. Interestingly enough, while I have disagreed with Watcher in this thread about the topic, I'd also be quite hesitant to allow this concept for some of my players because they are really good at finding roleplaying excuses for what comes down to mere powergaming. One the other hand I don't like to say "No" to my players as long as their idea isn't breaking the balance of the game or the story we create together.
But as far as the setting and the underlying assumptions are concerned I don't mind to change them to fit the needs of my players.
One of the worst blows to evil is the rekindling of hope in those who are in absolute despair. An evil power would not tolerate such an act. The power would either destroy the paladin or find a way to corrupt him into a blackguard.
Yes, you are IMO right there. But why should Evil strive to do so immediately? How much sweeter is the victory of Evil and despair if there seems to be a flicker of hope, kindled to brightness, only to be destroyed completely or - even better - turned to evil in the end? If your goal is despair, this could lead to ultimate despair. If Evil can show that this was the plan right from the beginning, even better.
Stefan
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Chris I see it diffent then you do.
Your points
* generic paladins dedicated to goodness and justice
* paladins consecrated to Torag
* paladins dedicated to Ironi1.The generic paladins powers come from the powers of good and right and all that jazz...meaning that the gods grant that power as a whole.
I believe you mean to say all the good/neutral gods grant the power as a whole.
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Thank you for your input even if you hated the idea.
Please refrain from stating RAW. I could care less since it is not a Pathfinder society game and the DM is the only law.
+3
I would like to ask thoughs who seem to want to beat it into everyones head that playing a character like this would most likely result in the character loosing all faith (and paladin abilities), be force to change his god, or become something similar to a Blackguard. My questioin is - And? What is the problem with this. If done right this could give the DM material for an entire campain or material for a new one after the current one is over. If things go bad I may have to hand over the character to be placed in the NPC pile. If that is what happens so be it. I love to make character and ingrain them in the campain but I more enjoy helping to make a great stroy.
If I wanted to make a carbon copy paladin I could. This was an idea of mine to make a paladin with more complexity. As it stands I am the only player allowed to make an evil aligned character in our group. (A group that usually plays good characters) This is because dispite how odd or extream my characters tend to be I make sure to share the spotlight and play them according to the concept and alignment. Alignment is more than two letters in a box to me. I once even played a LE assassian in a group of all good characters. At one point we even had a paladin. (Thank you ring of undetectable alignment). It wasn't revieled until near the end of the campain at which point the character became an NPC working against the group.
I simply enjoy playing complex characters that have a lot of story building quality.
+10
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I have stated with any other character you could do this, not with the paladin. The very nature of the paladin is anathema to all that is evil and good. You could call the paladin a living Saint. They dont merely just follow a code of law and goodness but are incarnations of what they champion. A power of evil hates them more than anyone else, and wishes to extinguish that light. How could a power of darkness grant the holy powers that the paladin uses. It cannot. Furthermore how would a power of darkness react when he sees the paladin ding works of good and saving souls through acts of charity, hope, healing, altruism and love. Ideals that evil cannot comprehend. One of the worst blows to evil is the rekindling of hope in those who are in absolute despair. An evil power would not tolerate such an act. The power would either destroy the paladin or find a way to corrupt him into a blackguard.
Um... who ever said the powers of darkness had to be evil? Not all necromancers are evil, nor are all cleric that channel negative energy. Warlocks don't have to be evil(Complete Arcane states they can be good) and neither do hexblades.
OP, have you looked at the Greyguard prestige class?
I believe you mean to say all the good/neutral gods grant the power as a whole.Chris I see it diffent then you do.
Your points
* generic paladins dedicated to goodness and justice
* paladins consecrated to Torag
* paladins dedicated to Ironi1.The generic paladins powers come from the powers of good and right and all that jazz...meaning that the gods grant that power as a whole.
Yep that is how I meant it
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I read the first page, then decided to post. I may be treading over covered ground, but I didn't want my thoughts muddled.
If we imagine Asmodeus in the classical sense as THE devil, ie the fallen archangel of God, then the idea of a LG Paladin worshiping him is not as far-fetched as it seems. At some point, presumably, Asmodeus was...good. (I do believe Fiendish Codex and other bits of lore are in line with the classical...I am unsure of Pathfinder)
Perhaps this Paladin, though of dim wit and a bit of a fool, is practicing a heresy among the greater church of Asmodeus: The heresy of Asmodeus as a God of Light, a bringer of Truth and Knowledge. I am not so keen on the Sarenrae angle personally. The great mystery is why does he receive holy blessings when he is clearly expressing his devotion to Asmodeus. It may be because he is, in fact, worshiping another deity (in this case, merely uttering Asmodeus' name instead of Sarenrae). But far more interesting is that he is, In fact, receiving his divine power from Asmodeus. The greater church of Asmodeus would seek to stamp out this heresy (plot hooks - adventure!), Other churches would be conflicted, confused, supportive, and all sorts of things. The thing to do would be to design a GOOD version of Asmodeus, assign it powers/Domains/etc. and have the Paladin follow that mechanically (ie the metagame). But in terms of roleplaying, he represents a new sect at best, or a true heresy at worst.
Is the act of worship of Asmodeus via the good tenets actually changing Asmodeus? Is a seperate entity in existence, a split of the entity of Asmodeus into two forms, one good, one evil going on? IS the Paladin simply deluded and worshiping another deity but using the wrong name? These are questions best left unanswered and revealed IN GAME via roleplaying.
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One of the worst blows to evil is the rekindling of hope in those who are in absolute despair. An evil power would not tolerate such an act. The power would either destroy the paladin or find a way to corrupt him into a blackguard.Yes, you are IMO right there. But why should Evil strive to do so immediately? How much sweeter is the victory of Evil and despair if there seems to be a flicker of hope, kindled to brightness, only to be destroyed completely or - even better - turned to evil in the end? If your goal is despair, this could lead to ultimate despair. If Evil can show that this was the plan right from the beginning, even better.
Stefan
if it was like that why would have Asmodeus worked with Sarenrae to capture Rovagug?
its about smart options... not just destroying good... Asmodeus wants profit... if giving enough hope to the people to destroy it later makes the job... well so be it...a Paladin of Asmopdeus with divine power and true goodness its an excellent tool of disruption, it would might make Asmodeus acepted in palces where he was not... then priest would come to him... first LN.. then he will become creative and get some LEor convert them...
its just a process of using the right tool... but of course... if you see evil as blind and stupid destroying every hope in way... there is no other option for you... but I believe you are confounding Asmodeus with Lamashtu or Rovagug
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Thank you for your input even if you hated the idea.
Please refrain from stating RAW. I could care less since it is not a Pathfinder society game and the DM is the only law.
...
I simply enjoy playing complex characters that have a lot of story building quality.
ok I can understand that idea, because we try to play like that, its more important the concept and to have fun than the RW or the mechanics...
that of course is why we play only with mature people (r people we consider mature...). As I said, great concept, I can identify with the desire playing something different and fun. Have fun in that chronicle, and tell us how it goes.
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mmm actually Asmodeus might not be doing it himself... but what does stop him of having made a contract eons ago with Sarenrae by the time they incarcerated Rovagug... that if someone was as foolish to revere him in the name of good for this act, then Sarenrae would compromise her to fulfill his duties of providing power to the deluded cleric or pladin... nominally extending his own portfolios by proxy :P
using other gods like this... is of course Asmodeous prerrogative
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Well if he didnt help Sarenrae he would be destroyed as well so it makes sense. asmodeus' mission to enslave all mortals. After all you cant forget the lawful component. And yes creating a False hope is the work of devils they dont represnt the blind destructivness of demons. However the paladin being mortal incarnates of good do not create false hopes and neither do they lie not even a white lie or a half truth. It is part of their nature to be open and honest.
anyone can give false hopes, speciallyif they believe they are real ones... how many politicians do it unintentionally... just to arrive to power and see that what they promised its imposible... at least a fe, i know most of them just promise knowing the can do what they say.
So if someone in his hearth believes he is doing good and giving hope, and then what he did is used for evil.. he didn't do evil, but the hope he gave will come crashing down double as fast...
there is a well known saying in my country... "el camino del infierno esta pavimentado con buenas intenciones"... which means "the road to hell is done with good intentions"
I was using darkness in its more universal form as evil. No none of these classes have to be evil, but remember none of these classes have a moral code or standards to live up to. The warlock class has to fight an everyday battle with temptation to not give in to the evil urges of his Infernal/demonic Pact. A ncromancer must have a strong will in mind not to use the evil powers. However these clases are not bound to some deity with oaths or vows like clerics are, and neither do they espouse the embodiements of good and law. Paladins are the champions of goodness and all that it entails. No evil power can grant such a paladin his power. A paladin by his very nature is selfless and self sacrificing an evil power is the exact opposite. It all revolves around itself and could care less about such ideals. Besides by granting a paladin the power to do good would be self defeating to itself
Begging to differ, but by the rules, and even the literature, evil is just as capable as good at some magics. Healing, for example. If an evil god can give an evil cleric healing spells, he can certainly, with no sense of illogic, grant anyone the ability to lay on hands. A good and saintly aura? It would be a pretty piss-poor Father of Lies who couldn't counterfeit one of those. Every miracle in the good playbook can be duplicated by evil, because one of the tenets of evil is that the ends justify the means.
Granting the power to the paladin is perfectly within the rules for evil. He may be a deluded patsy, but he's their deluded patsy, and with a little stage direction from imps dressed up as cherubs, you can send him out to smite all of the dark god's enemies, including and especially rival dark gods. Yes, he may occasionally run into other pawns of the dark god, and it may be necessary to sacrifice them to keep up the masquerade, but the dark god doesn't care, and sacrificing a pawn to keep a well positioned knight isn't that troubling. And if the dark god ever has the paladin catch on and become a problem, well then, he can immediately turn off all the faux paladin powers and leave him crippled.
asmodeus' mission to enslave all mortals. After all you cant forget the lawful component. And yes creating a False hope is the work of devils they dont represnt the blind destructivness of demons. However the paladin being mortal incarnates of good do not create false hopes and neither do they lie not even a white lie or a half truth. It is part of their nature to be open and honest.
I thought Asmodeus' mission was to one day become king of all creation, a scheme that he has been working on for eternity starting with the contract of Rovagoug's seal...
I'm almost sure I saw James saying this either here or in the chat (James, please correct me if I'm wrong): after you die Pharasma sends you to the realm of your god, and if you don't worship any, you go to the plane that most closely matches your alignment... so yeah, I can see how a paladin that goes around spreading word-through-deed and creating hopeful converts would be most useful to Asmodeus, unwittingly tricking souls into voluntarily going to hell.
I know coreonlyoholics will never agree with me on this, but as long as there isn't a re-edition of the Campaign Setting book, you can always abide by the Campaign Setting which allows for god-free paladins, so this concept can always work as a (horribly misguided) no-deity paladin.
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don't know if someone mentioned it or not... but they have put in the Store a PDF called undeFEATed: Cleric (PFRPG)... there are some interestign feats there...
most of them are useless for me since I am not using PFRPG, but there is one interesting... I don't rememebr if someone mentioned it or know about, its called Deviant Worshipper, and basically it would let you play a CG or even CN cleric of Iomedae or a LG cleric of Pharasma... it has some interesting notions and still your character should NOT behave outside HIS alignment, but you actually believe somethign entirelly different form what your min religion is... just like the OP Greg has proposed her... check it. if you can.
This saturday we had our first day of gaming with my paladin. Unfortunately I had a very bad allergy attack and was unable to commit fully to playing the character. I was so worn out I had to lie down and rest half way into the game. Hopefully the next game goes better.
Hmmm.... playing a paladin of Asmodeus yields severe allergy attack. Sounds like a failed Karma check :)
Hope you feel better - I'd like to know how this experiment works out.
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Again. A Paladin could indeed place himself in service to a lord, it's even plausible that trusting in said lord's reputation he might not even bother to do a detect evil (which in many cases would not show much on an evil-aligned person who does not radiate an aura of evil the way a cleric would)
But here's the big however, if said baron or his troops perform actions that would go against the Paladin's code which is a code to whom he owes a higher responsibility, he is obligated to confront said baron one way or another to end such behavior. If he decides that loyalty to the baron is more important than loyalty to his code, eventually he will wind up leaving his paladinhood behind.
The Paladin has to embody both LAW and GOOD. Not one or the other.
This has been an interesting thread to say the least. My initial reaction was absolutely not but I no longer feel that is the case. The circumstances in the campaign would have to be there but it would work.
If I were Asmodeus I would absolutely empower paladins who wanted to serve me. I could come up with a million jobs for them to do that wouldn't go against their code but would still serve my purposes. :D
This is absolutely correct in my opinion. Asmodeous has much to gain by grant powers to Paladins. Yes, he would have to do a good job of keeping them separate from his more illegitimate affairs but I can imagine a god of contracts would be more than capable of weaving such a web of deceit. Such Paladins would serve better away from the the main body of the church spreading the value of Asmodeous teachings (those teachings that don't interfere with a Lawful Good alignment).
Well I was one that quoted. The issue is it goes agiest setting for one. But that is between him and his DM. However his powers are in part granted by good powers. An evil god just has no access to them. But really if his DM is allowing non good paladin(which is how this sounds to me) can hand wave that as well
Why wouldn't an evil deity have access to them. Evil clerics can cast heal spells.
I agree that such a character should be a rarity, but at the same time it does sound like a fantastic idea to base an entire campaign around. This would be a story worth reading in my opinion. A Lawful Good Holy man tricked into believing his god is misunderstood and really is working towards the benefit of all mankind. The campaign could even build up to the point of the character finding out the truth, besides just naysayers, and choosing between his moral grounds and the good things that Asmodeous has done for the world. That choice could result in one of many scenerios including converting to some sort of Blackguard, or rising up against the church that he has promoted for so long.
My opinion,
Generally, I wouldn't allow this in a game, but, given the right campaign or circumstances, I would love to DM such a game.
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James jacobs said in another thread that officially only Neutral Good, Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral gods can have Paladins.
I would house rule that some Chaotic good gods could but I think a paladin of a LE god defeats both the spirit and the letter of the rule.
IMHO .. every alignment can have "Holy Warriors" but not all alignments have Paladins. I believe there was a dragon article about Holy Warriors of other alignments.
I would twist the concept a bit making him an Anakin Skywalker type. Believes that in what he is doing is right, that only through absolute rule can true justice be served. Enforcing an unwielding unremorseful law. etc. Now this does make the character evil because there is no compassion for either good or evil doers, etc. You could argue this is a rather neutral point of view if the character believed in the whole "balance" thing, but my concept would be someone who isnt concerned with balance so much as Might makes right.
Just a few thoughts
Trent
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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LazarX, your analysis on the nature of gods is sound; it would certainly hold up as the basis for the divinities of a role-playing setting. But I think you're overselling it as the only possible way for a role-playing game to handle the idea of a pantheon.
Your discussion isn't, well, dogma. There are other, equally reasonable, ideas about how gods might "work" in a pagan setting.
Certainly, the Norse and Greek cultures understood their gods to have the same personality foibles, virtues, jealousies, and emotions as humans. For example, gods like Thor and Loki could be trustworthy kin in one story, and deadly opponents at other times. Legends show gods can even changing their minds, reconsidering their courses of action, and growing wiser.
Edit: Without taking the risk of blaspheming, the same could be said of the God of the Israelites. He grows wroth at the stubbornness of sinful men, takes action against them, and then vows to never do so again. You mention that a mythological god of the cities couldn't destroy a city, but the God of Israel is more than ready at various times to do great damage to His people, even threatening at one point to wipe them all out and start over again with Moses. Moses' reply, "Why, O Lord, is Your indignation kindled 'gainst Your people? Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to whom You swore to give a land flowing with milk and honey." convinces God to turn away from the evil He had threatened.
And, in Golarion in particular, the gods have a myriad of origins and backgrounds. I wouldn't expect Admodeus to be wishy-washy about his alignment (because he used to be a devil, and I think it's been established that their alignments are indeed hard-wired), but I could imagine having a debate with Zon-Kuthon or Norgorber. Even Saranrae seems to keep different counsel under different circumstances.
In the Forgotten Realms Avatar followupUm I hate to tell you this, but the forgotten realms isn't golarion, and isn't the myriad of campaign settings out there. so saying that something worked this way for gods in this setting doesn't equal an argument.Do yourself a favor...go get a book on literature or a dictionary and look up the word Analogy sometime.
The point I was making was that the person I was replying to was treating a god as nothing more than a super powered player character who could do something because "Hey that's what I'd do" He was missing the point as to why Gods need or are frequently defeated by mortals.. Mortals despite thier weakness have the gift of true free will, they're not bounded by absolute qualities of good, evil, or bonded to a concept. They can choose to ally with these causes but that's a function of choice... not the essence of thier being.
A god of Cities for instance won't raise a volcano to destroy one because Cities are tied into it's very being. Now a God of Volcanos on the other hand could for that same reason.
I will admit I dont know much about FR or Golarion(sp?), but do the gods need mortal worshipers to keep their power in Golarion? I see no reason why he could not grant paladin like powers to some charismatic good guys, and convince them to do his bidding. Of course I am sure the truth will come to light every once in a while, but then Asmodeus can just reclaim his powers, and/or kill the guy off.
While the character concept would be a tough sell, I would possible allow it if it was modified somewhat.
Short version - your PC is nuts. Certifiably delusional. Not open to interpretation.
Since in the Pathfinder RPG Cleric description, the following passage is cited "a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion", the ONLY way I could see someone be LG worshipping their own version of a LE deity and remaining LG would be if the character was delusional. He would view the real Asmodean church as a heretical faith and perhaps sees himself as a prophet - who has received a vision and has made it his mission to redeem the faith.
All that said, the character's going to have a tough road ahead and if I were the GM, you wouldn't be able to handwave it away as a difference of opinion. You'd have good churches coming after you for essentially attempting to perpetuate Golarion's version of "The Devil's Greatest Trick" and you'd have the Asmodeans after you just to silence your heretical existence. You WOULD be viewed as a heretic - by both sides of the aisle.
Your companions would have to be willing to accept that they are adventuring with a severely disturbed person (even if a harmless one).
Also, if your character is ever hit with greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish, the delusion may be "cured" - the error of your ways is immediately laid bare and you lose your paladin status.
However...
IF (and it's a big IF) you went forward with the character concept with the understanding that you could be cured, and thereby lose your paladin status, I would discuss two approaches with the GM in advance:
1 - Asmodeus eventually takes a liking to this great trick. Upon losing your paladin status, Asmodeus sends a representative that, in typical Faustian fashion, offers to make the character a Blackguard on the condition that they continue to try and perpetuate the lie.
2 - One of the good deities is waiting in the wings to bring the character into their fold.
Either way, the long term viability of playing such a deluded character without ever having the lie shattered would be pretty damn slim -- say a snowball's chance in Hell. (couldn't resist)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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While the character concept would be a tough sell, I would possible allow it if it was modified somewhat.
Short version - your PC is nuts. Certifiably delusional. Not open to interpretation.
Since in the Pathfinder RPG Cleric description, the following passage is cited "a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion", the ONLY way I could see someone be LG worshipping their own version of a LE deity and remaining LG would be if the character was delusional.
BPorter, that's a cool insight. And I think it makes sense, from the point of view of a cleric, because a cleric is clearly acting as the agent of a deity, even if --in the rare case you cite-- the cleric doesn't know the deity's name. Their powers come from the god.
Do you see paladins deriving their class powers in the same way?
(For the record, I'm not sure I do. Paladins typically don't take a patron deity. And those that do, have a different kind of relationship. Clerics of Lawful Neutral gods get spells like "Protection from Chaos"; while paladins of Lawful Neutral gods are still wholly devoted to the holy service of goodness.)
If you think a paladin's powers come from her god, then your position makes complete sense. If you think a paladin's powers are a separate facet of her personality from her religion, then I still think the poor woman could be mistaken about a fact and remain true to her calling.
To my way of thinking, that's why the forces of good which created and define paladins bestow the power of detect evil right away, so that paladins might discern the truth about the people around them. That is, the forces understand that paladins can be confused and can commit honest errors.
But thank you for so clearly, articulately, and respectfully posting your position.
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To my way of thinking, that's why the forces of good which created and define paladins bestow the power of detect evil right away, so that paladins might discern the truth about the people around them. That is, the forces understand that paladins can be confused and can commit honest errors.
The explicit mention of the 'powers of good' in the Paladin write up suggests that Paladins of lawful neutral dieties, such as Abadar in Golarion, or St. Cuthbert in Greyhawk, may no longer be suitable.
While there is no rule saying 'only good gods can have Paladins,' just as there is no rule saying 'no evil gods can have Paladins,' the mention of 'powers of good' does suggest that lawful neutral gods are no longer acceptable choices.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Set, so far as I can tell, the nature of a paladin and her powers, how she gets them and where they come from, are unresolved issues, left up to the individual Game Masters, even in the Golarion Campaign Setting.
If I were pressed to take a stand, I'd be arguing that the source of the powers isn't good-aligned gods at all, but rather the angelic forces of the plane of Heaven. I'd be most likely to make a case that the same "personification" at the summit (page 38 of The Great Beyond) that even Iomedae respects, that might be the Nirvana Dragon, might be the power behind the mortal paladins.
So, as I see it, the power doesn't particularly care what religion a paladin follows, so long as it doesn't conflict with her duty to be a champion of Good, to do so Lawfully, and to adhere to her Code of Conduct. And knowingly worshipping any deity who's not LG, NG, or LN is going to cause a conflict somewhere along the line.
(And in particular, if a paladin begins to worship, say, Saranrae or Shelyn, it's not the case that the goddess supplants the paladin's original power source. The same vaguely-defined powers of holiness are still acting through the paladin.)
BPorter, that's a cool insight. And I think it makes sense, from the point of view of a cleric, because a cleric is clearly acting as the agent of a deity, even if --in the rare case you cite-- the cleric doesn't know the deity's name. Their powers come from the god.
Do you see paladins deriving their class powers in the same way?
(For the record, I'm not sure I do. Paladins typically don't take a patron deity. And those that do, have a different kind of relationship. Clerics of Lawful Neutral gods get spells like "Protection from Chaos"; while paladins of Lawful Neutral gods are still wholly devoted to the holy service of goodness.)
If you think a paladin's powers come from her god, then your position makes complete sense. If you think a paladin's powers are a separate facet of her personality from her religion, then I still think the poor woman could be mistaken about a fact and remain true to her calling.
To my way of thinking, that's why the forces of good which created and define paladins bestow the power of detect evil right away, so that paladins might discern the truth about the people around them. That is, the forces understand that paladins can be confused and can commit honest errors.
But thank you for so clearly, articulately, and respectfully posting your position.
Well, if someone's going out on a limb saying "I'm a LG paladin that worships a LE god", I say let the GM make the call. Both the Pathfinder Campaign Setting and the Pathfinder RPG cite that paladins worship a variety of deities - presumably they derive their divine power from those deities. What it implies is that paladins do not have to be part of the official church - more along the lines of a militant religious order ala the Templars and Hospitalers than in the formal church heirarchy.
If a cleric can derive powers solely from belief/convictions, why not a paladin? One could argue that the paladin's a better case for it. So in my example, the delusional paladin believes he receives his powers from Asmodeus. The strength of that delusional conviction actually produces the desired effect.
Just a thought. Do with it what you will.
Oh, and thanks for the compliment!
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Someone asks for opinions on a character concept and people automatically quote someone else. How are someone else's words youe opinion? How are rules?
The OP was asking about a concept, aand clearly stated all the reason his character believed Asmodeus was a good god. If someone put that much work into a character, I'd allow it, and ask the player if he would like his character to learn the truth or not later on.
My opinion:
If I was the GM, this would be a tough sell, with a very strong likelihood that I would reject this character concept.
And you'll notice that I cite no rules whatsoever. That notwithstanding, yeah.. "NO".
As people have mentioned previously in the thread, sincere worship of one diety done in the name of another diety (the Tash versus Aslan reference, where good in the name of Tash is taken into account by Aslan), would have some merit with me. I would want the player to understand that on some Meta-level, lest they think I "messed their character concept up" at a later point.
I'm not saying it's impossible for me to accept this characer concept, but it would have to be an exceptional player. Not a casual one, or somebody I didn't know well.
As a player at the same table, I'm not sure I wouldn't buck and just walk away. Again, mitigated by my trust in the GM and the paladin player.
All my opinion, and not relying on RAW whatsoever.
Frankly, the only reason I see for Asmodeus to put up with this would be in order to corrupt the paladin. Not undermine their adherence to law, but weaken their faith in the inherent goodness of people. Because from his point of view, Law is necessary because people aren't good; and for Law to work effectively it must not hindered or fettered by altruism and moral conviction. So if this paladin suceeds, it ultimately undermines Asmodeus to some small degree. That might be an amusing intellectual pursuit or game for a while, but as the paladin rises in power there will come a time when 'enough is enough'....
I on the other hand, would allow this with the proper caveats, Asmodeus ready to bend the would-be paladin to his will into a blackguard...'enough is enough' Asmodeus gets mad, and starts sending fiends to destroy his own champion...classic.
The low intelligence aspect is great, he's too dense to realize what's wrong with the doctrine.
It's amazing what happens when you leave out a requirement like "Must worship a good or lawful god." So many threads about odd paladins...
Asmodeus is lawful, hence this debate at least.