Isn't there a clear pattern of evidence?
There sure are a lot of facts along with the suspicions and strange behavior.
Michael was my best friend. Why can't you all just leave him alone.
Wow. Did not know that. That would really mean that MJ was going to hell...or would it mean that he was already in hell before he died?
My wife is watching the Martin Bashir documentary while I work. (Gee, thanks, hon.) What disturbs me about it has nothing to do with Bashir's presentation, it's MJ's behavior and statements that just freak me the hell out. Whatever he was or was not, he was deeply troubled.
...he was deeply troubled.
Check.
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I don't think the evidence is necessarily conclusive. It's definite that he was an unusual guy, but I don't think the facts prove that he was a child molester. I think he appeared to be a strange man who in a lot of ways was still a child himself. I can see how someone may believe the evidence points to him being a child molester, but I don't think it's so clear cut that you can say people who think he's not guilty are ignoring the evidence.
He touched a lot of people (yes, I know how that sounds :p) with his music, so it's understandable for there to be a fair bit of stunned people around.
Yeah, he was a genius musically (I guess, I wasn't around when his songs were popular and I switch stations whenever they come on), but he had a lot of problems. He had a real kid's mind. Kids can act like he did (i.e. molestation). It's regrettable, but he was gifted and cursed with fame. Not that any of this means we won't make fun of his child-loving actions.
Some of his problems:- Molesting children.
- Being addicted to painkillers.
- Not liking his cultural identity, and wanting to become white.
- Trying to stay in childhood.
- Having stunted (emotional) growth.
Some of his good things:
- Great singing ability.
- Great dancing ability.
- Great songwriting ability.
- Creativity.
- The mind of a child.
- Used fame to help people (especially in Africa), or those under dictatorial regimes.
One: Michael Jackson was NOT a child molester. When the prosecutions own experts were jumping ship and saying that it wasn'tpossible, the accusers suddenly took the money and ran before the trial could be concluded. It was the same during the second trial. It's why he was acquitted.
As for him trying to become white, he suffered from Vitiligo. It's a skin disease in which the skin loses it's pigmentation. Do a google search and look at the pictures. It wasn't that he was ashamed of his race, it was an incurable medical condition that made him change his "race".
As for his stunted emotional growth, you can blame his father for that. All of the Jackson's have come out and said that their father was a horrible person, especially in when it came to Michael.
His doctors didn't help him when it came to his prescription drug problem. Instead of helping him, they pretty much saw him as a cash cow.
You're right, blame it all on other people.
Were you on his legal team?
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I believe there was an admission of adiction to painkillers.
But he was exonerated from the child molestation charges (there goes your OJ comparison ;)
In regards to wanting to stay childlike and above blaming others
i) the guy had NO childhood. He was a celebrity from 9yo onwards and has NEVER had a life like you or I might know. He hasn't even had the shread of childhood that his siblings have had.
ii) I'm a 38yo man posting on a forum that I read to keep in touch with my teenage adiction to D&D. Extrapolate ;D
As to the Thread Heading ...
Do you mean circumstantial evidence and media conjecture? I'm not sure there is any other evidence.
This threads been remarkably flame retardant for something so full of accelerant. I thought it's be like a fire Genasi in the library of Candlekeep - Awesome :)
The OP means whatever you want it to mean. You come to argue MJ's culpability, not to praise him.
What do you take for evidence?
Show us where Michael touched you on this dolly, Mairkurion.
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I believe there was an admission of adiction to painkillers.
But he was exonerated from the child molestation charges (there goes your OJ comparison ;)
In regards to wanting to stay childlike and above blaming others
i) the guy had NO childhood. He was a celebrity from 9yo onwards and has NEVER had a life like you or I might know. He hasn't even had the shread of childhood that his siblings have had.
ii) I'm a 38yo man posting on a forum that I read to keep in touch with my teenage adiction to D&D. Extrapolate ;DAs to the Thread Heading ...
Do you mean circumstantial evidence and media conjecture? I'm not sure there is any other evidence.This threads been remarkably flame retardant for something so full of accelerant. I thought it's be like a fire Genasi in the library of Candlekeep - Awesome :)
Thank you... I wasn't even thinking of flaming. I just made a bunch of off-the-bat ideas.
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Vitiligo causes the skin to lighten in patches, at least the cases I have seen do, so I ain't buyin' that excuse. He tried everything in his power to change his racial identity from his hair to his nose to his skin. which is kinda sad considering his popularity in his prime, he woulda made a helluva role model if he coulda gotten his crap together. I do find it funny that if any of us acted half as crazy as him we would of been locked up in the looney bin so fast it woulda made our heads spin.
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Vitiligo causes the skin to lighten in patches, at least the cases I have seen do, so I ain't buyin' that excuse.Same with every case I've seen, and I have actually worked with several people who have it. There is also not a gradual lightening, it is straight from dark to pale.
There is a really sweet girl that works at a BK near my house that suffers from it, and people ridicule her by calling the "jersey cow". So the fact that he pretended to have this disorder is pretty slimey to me.
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I mam not a Jackson fan, but i believe that there is just as much chance that people were trying to take advantage of him being strange that there was that he did something inappropriate. There are a few thing at play here. It is easy to believe that he was a child molester because that is easier than thinking that he really wanted to help all those children. Part of that is because there are a lot of people willing to do bad thing like that. But... What if he really was just a strange man that did nothing inappropriate. The only way to have that checked is through our legal process. We know the result. I personally have to have faith in that. I mean, what if I was just a strange person that ended up in a situation where it looked like I had done something wrong. (No officer, I was just teaching them D&D, I know we are in my basement, and I am wearing a weird costume, and calling them by pretend names, it isn't as bad as it looks). I know that I want the law there to protect me. If I am innocent, then I should have faith that no one is going to judge me, unless I am proved guilty (which I can't be if I am innocent). So, I have to go with how the case turned out. The people involved got to listen to everything, and if they didn't think there was enough to prove he did something wrong, then I am not going to say I know any better. (I believe the same about OJ).
The second part is that we all know there are people out there who are looking for the opportunity to take something that they did not earn. Some of them will go through amazing lengths, and when you have a target like MJ, that is a swindlers dream. Especially if he is what he says he is, someone just trying to make children happy. Yea, it is pretty rare (see above) but if true, then there are going to be people who try to use that, and they did. They also shut up when they got what they wanted.
So that is my opinion. The system isn't always right, but you still have to have faith in it, because one day you might need it, and you want to make sure despite how things may LOOK, you are getting a fair deal. That mean don't judge when you don;t know the facts, just as you would not want someone to judge you unless they knew all the facts.
Vitiligo causes the skin to lighten in patches, at least the cases I have seen do, so I ain't buyin' that excuse. He tried everything in his power to change his racial identity from his hair to his nose to his skin. which is kinda sad considering his popularity in his prime, he woulda made a helluva role model if he coulda gotten his crap together. I do find it funny that if any of us acted half as crazy as him we would of been locked up in the looney bin so fast it woulda made our heads spin.
Gay? Molester? Just accusations.
What a freak, though.
Hey, Clee, this is not the joke thread!
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Seriously, this is Paizo, these forums are meant for fans of Pathfinder, game mastery, and other games. Starting flash wars just because is pretty lame.
Besides, since Michael Jackson was 99% plastic he will be melted down so that kids can play with him!
Welcome to the Paizo messageboards Clee. I think you'll find things are a little different over here in the Off Topic section. Have fun!
Some of his problems:
- Molesting children.
- Being addicted to painkillers.
- Not liking his cultural identity, and wanting to become white.
- Trying to stay in childhood.
- Having stunted (emotional) growth.
Frankly, I'm not sure he didn't like his cultural identity. I suspect it has less to do with being black than being increasingly fundamentally unhappy with everything about himself, physically. The nose jobs, the chin job, the skin, the hair, the high voice. I don't think there was anything he didn't want to change in some way from what nature was going to provide.
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Vitiligo causes the skin to lighten in patches, at least the cases I have seen do, so I ain't buyin' that excuse.Same with every case I've seen, and I have actually worked with several people who have it. There is also not a gradual lightening, it is straight from dark to pale.
I know a man of Arab descent with vitiligo, and while it was a gradual and "patchy" process, he's now completely white. And at various times while the condition developed, he used make-up (dark early on, light later) to attempt to cover or blend the off-color spots so it wasn't as noticeable. I think that's an entirely plausible explanation for the MJ experience, especially when you consider the guy was a little obsessed with his appearance. Not saying that's absolutely what happened, but I don't think you can just rule it out, either.
As for the child molestation and other stuff, eh, not sure I've seen enough to be persuaded either way.
Show us where Michael touched you on this dolly, Mairkurion.
I understand if you don't want to talk about it.
Michael touched me...right here.
Ahem.
Seriously, the internet is being killed by both people who hated the guy, and people who loved him.
That's why I made three separate threads! And inspired a fifth!
But don't "kill" the internet. Use it a lot, but don't kill it. Sebastian owns the internet, and, as I now own Sebastian, proceeds eventually flow to me.
Then you sure didn't try it on right.
Seriously, the internet is being killed by both people who hated the guy, and people who loved him.
I can personally attest to the fact that you, KC, yes you, are killing the internet.
Seriously, the internet is being killed by both people who hated the guy, and people who loved him.I can personally attest to the fact that you, KC, yes you, are killing the internet.
Shush! It's a secret!
The initial credit for its locking was reassigned, so I think others get the credit for that now. Still, "it never hurts to help!"
An actual, online conversation from some friends of mine. Note: Their names have been changed to protect the innocent.
George: omg I figured it out
Bob: What did you figure out?
George: I figured out what is really going on
Bob: If it's something regarding the pod people, I had that figured out weeks ago.
George: no it’s not the pod people. It’s bigger than that
Bob: It's the Amish then???
George: no it’s the Michael Jackson thing. I figured out what this really is
Bob: LOL, what did you figure out? (I don't see how it can be bigger than the pod people or the Amish conspiracy.)
George: this whole memorial thing is really just the first part of his big comeback tour he was planning
Bob: Or is it Amish?
George: he fakes his death
to raise global awareness of Michael Jackson to epic proportions
then he has this big memorial thing
then in the middle of it, he rises from the grave and performs Thriller as a zombie
Bob: That's not as big as the Amish conspiracy to take over the world by using large weather controlling computers.....
George: yes it is
because Michael Jackson has been Amish this whole time!
Bob: So how is MJ going to take over the world as a zombie?
Ah......
I would have never expected MJ as Amish.
George: so he comes back as a zombie, goes on a world tour
and everywhere he goes he infects everyone with his zombie plague
until the entire world is shuffling around endlessly doing the thriller dance
Bob: I see...but if he's Amish, then how do the weather controlling computers come into play.
The Amish are all about controlling weather through huge super computers.
George: the weather controlling computers are just to make sure there’s good weather at his outdoor concerts
see the Amish have been planning this for years
Bob: Ah.....
George: it makes perfect sense
Bob: I'm not certain you have it all correct...Something doesn't seem right with your theory.
George: theory???
Bob: Well, hypothesis as to what is really happening.
George: this is a theory only in the same sense that the "theory of gravity" and the "theory of evolution" are theories
this is so obviously what is really going on that it is basically a fact
Bob: Well, it doesn't seem right...Something doesn't fit.
You’re missing a piece of the puzzle.
George: well whatever, you can think what you want, but when Michael Jackson jumps out of his coffin and Vincent price starts his monologue then you can come apologize for doubting me
Bob: Wait, wouldn't VP also have to be a zombie then?
See...here it is...
Vincent Price has an elaborate plan to take over the world.
When saying his lines from Thriller, he is planting subliminal messages into Michael Jackson’s brain.
VP comes back from the grave as a vampire and waits for MJ to die so that he can make him a zombie.
George: lol
Bob: And we all know that Vincent price is Amish.
George: damnit that doesn’t make any sense!
Bob: See....MJ couldn't be Amish.....and he isn't bright enough to come up with such an elaborate scheme
But Vincent Price....
George: what could Vincent price possibly hope to gain by taking over Michael Jackson's brain?
Bob: He didn't need MJ's brain...He needed to plant subliminal messages into his head while he was alive so that he could access MJ once he died and turn him into a zombie.
That way, when MJ died he could come back and turn everyone else into zombies...
George: so... that Vincent price... could use the zombies.... TO SELL HIS NEW LINE OF SALAD DRESSINGS!!!
OMG WHY DIDNT I SEE THIS BEFORE???
Bob: Where was salad dressing in your theory?
George: it makes perfect sense
Bob: I thought the whole goal was to turn everyone into mindless zombies and do the Thriller dance...
George: the Amish control the weather with super computers... that’s basically a given
Bob: Yes....
We all know that...
George: but what is the point of controlling the weather?
global extortion?
no that’s been done already
by cobra
and the last thing Vincent price is to be a biter, and copy Cobra Commander's schemes
Bob: No, they control the weather so that they can control our emotions.
That is a well proven fact.
George: no no you see that’s what they want you to think
Bob: I completely agree with you about the Vincent Price not copying Cobra though.
George: they are really controlling the weather so they can decide which crops will grow and which won’t
Bob: Well of course that is true...they are Amish after all.
George: they intend to increase the worldwide supply of iceberg lettuce and radishes 100 fold
soon everyone will have no choice but to eat salads for breakfast lunch and dinner
Bob: Ah.....
George: and then Vincent price unleashes his masterstroke
Bob: But how does VP and MJ fall into this plan?
George: the unveiling of his new line of Vincent Price Signature Salad Dressings
but you see here is the reason that Vincent Price needs Michael Jackson
he needs Michael Jackson to turn all his fans into zombies
because Vincent Price knows that the market is already saturated with salad dressings
but... if Vincent Price had an army of mindless slaves to go door to door selling HIS salad dressings.... people would have no choice but to buy them!
especially if his salad dressings were being sold by ravenous zombies who eat the brains of anyone who doesn’t buy Vincent Price Signature Salad Dressing!
Bob: But wait, won't Paul Newman stop him?
George: and all this because of Vincent Price's decades long personal vendetta against Paul Newman
Bob: (Because of course, Paul Newman died and came back as a Lich)
George: lol
Bob: Wait, not a lich....what am I thinking...
George: a wight?
No, a death knight....
George: a death knight?
Bob: Not a death knight?
George: but Paul Newman was never betrayed by the woman who loved him
Bob: Hrm....
I know....
George: but he was a king of an ancient empire
of salad dressings
I think Paul Newman must be either a lich or a wight
Bob: Robert Redford brought him back as a Mummy.
George: lol
Robert Redford is a necromancer?
Bob: Of course he is....You know all about his film festivals and what they are really a front for....
George: no what?
Bob: His secret plot against the Amish....Yuppieism.
George: omg
that makes perfect sense
Bob: It's the only thing that has kept the Amish in check.
See, I don't see how Vincent Price's zombies can beat Paul Newman’s Yuppies.
George: because Vincent price knows that yuppies love salad
you think that Vincent prices salad dressings are just ordinary salad dressings?
Bob: Ah....but that is how Newman and Redford control them...How is he going to sell more salad dressing than Newman?
George: because he has door to door zombies
Bob: Of course not, but Newman has such a big lead on him.
George: they will eat the brains of anyone who doesn’t buy the salad dressings
Bob: He's been selling salad dressing for years.
George: yes but Newman has become complacent
Bob: Yes, but it's a well known fact that Yuppies don't have brains....
George: he doesn’t see any of this coming
Bob: What do you think the Newman salad dressing does?
George: but if they don’t have brains then how does Newman’s salad dressing control them?
Bob: Duh....Redford is a necromancer
George: they must have physical brains, but they are mentally controlled by the salad dressings
thereby appearing brainless
Bob: Who is using Newman's salad dressing to destroy yuppie brains so that he can control them.
George: so yuppies are already zombies?
Bob: Yes....where have you been this whole conversation?
How else can Redford possibly take on the Amish?
George: but wait.... if yuppies are already zombies... and Vincent price intends to see salad dressings to them using more zombies....
then that could only mean....
that Vincent Price...
intends to bring about....
Bob: OMG.....Vincent Price is Robert Redford?
George: lol
well I was gonna say "a zombie salad dressing Armageddon"
Bob: LOL
George: but Vincent price is Robert Redford makes so much more sense
Bob: Yes.....and he is still trying to bring about a zombie salad dressing Armageddon!!!
George: lol
so Michael Jackson's death proves that Robert Redford is Vincent Price, whom intends to bring about a zombie salad dressing Armageddon
wow I wonder why no one else has figured this out yet
it’s so totally obvious
Bob: We are now beyond the looking glass.....
George: omg
how do we know this connection is secure?
Bob: Wait...but there is still one thing missing....
George: the Amish have all our lines tapped
they could be listening
Bob: If Vincent Price is Amish and Robert Redford is trying to stop the Amish from taking over the world....
George: then what???
why would Vincent Price/Robert Redford work against himself?
Bob: Then....who is really behind it all? There has to be a mastermind that is pulling both sets of strings....
George: wait....
I think we already know
Bob: OMG....It cannot be....
George: if Vincent price and Robert Redford are the same person
and they are working against each other
towards opposite goals...
that leaves only one possibility....
VINCENT PRICE AND ROBERT REDFORD....
ARE DEMOGORGON!
Bob: Wait a second....
George: lol
Bob: that cannot be...
George: it has to be
Bob: Demogorgon is a mythical creature and has no basis in reality.
George: duh that’s what Demogorgon wants you to think
he's a demon prince, a master of deception
Bob: No no.....
George: what better way to hide than in plain sight!
Bob: You've got it wrong....
George: oh yeah? well what do you think then, Mr. smarty pants?
Bob: Vincent Price/Robert Redford is really....
George: Liza Manelli?
Bob: LOL
Liza Manelli is dead?
George: I dunno, if she had two heads she would kinda look like Demogorgon
Bob: Barbara Bush.....
George: Barbara Bush?
Bob: You see Barbara Bush is so peeved at the fact that her Husband and Son are no longer in the White House and she lost her senate seat that she has finally decided to enact her master plan to start "zombie salad dressing Armageddon"
George: lol
I dunno, I still think that Demogorgon is behind this
Bob: I think you’re crazy...Demogorgon is a mythical creature...Barbara Bush is really scary.
George: I'm crazy???
You're the one who's crazy!
Barbara Bush might be scary and evil, but she's nothing compared to Demogorgon
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Bob: If Vincent Price is Amish and Robert Redford is trying to stop the Amish from taking over the world....
George: then what???
why would Vincent Price/Robert Redford work against himself?Bob: Then....who is really behind it all? There has to be a mastermind that is pulling both sets of strings....
Obviously, he is making both sides suffer heavy casualties so that he gets more souls!
Obviously, he is making both sides suffer heavy casualties so that he gets more souls!
Of course! Michael Jackson, Robert Redford and Vincent Price are all aspects of Demogorgon! My Bob, man! Why didn't we see it before?
I'm telling ya, it's David Carradine, Undead Kung-Fu master, returning to avenge himself on all who crossed him during life. (Ed McMahon, Farrah, MJ, Billy Mays.) I predict that soon Michael will return to revenge himself on Jamie Foxx, in a real life version of Thriller.