I know that the DD (Dragon Disciple) PrC probably is not going to be covered in the sneak preview. If it is, then please let me know.(All personal peeves left till later) If not I was just wondering what are they doing with it, if anything from the beta.
Thank
I hope they don't go with the casting progression like the beta had.
I know that they feel this huge push to make it work as a caster PrC due to the new sorcerer blood lines, but lets all be honest here; it was a Melee PrC.
High base attack bonus vs. Untyped Strength Bonus is questionable, as you do get a bonus to hit and an additional attack at lowest base attack, getting a bonus to hit and damage, and something that can be doubled with the strength surge barbarian feature can be very nice.
It has a D12 hit die, with a con bonus!, is a definite trait of not only a combat class but a up front melee class.
Natural Armor bonus, could go ether way, but probably more of a combat trait.
Natural Weapons: Enough said with the hit die they get.
No caster level increase: If it was meant to be a caster class it would have this.
I think what really needed to be done was dropping the caster requirement, say draconic blood line like ability and/or feat, and have some energy resistance as they progress.
I can hope all I want that this melee function will be continued in the end with the PrC, but I know that they probably will not.
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I agree, this was definitely a melee-type PrC from the start. I was yelled at, and proceeded to yell at, any straight sorcerers who took it in 3.5. A few extra spell slots and a bunch of strength does not make you a 15th level character.
I was more a fan of Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Gave a nice flavor for my Paladin of Bahumat especially since the slots were untyped. 5 paladin spells, even of 1st level, were nice to have.
The 3.X Dragon Disciple can easily be viewed as a melee oriented PrC. I think that was more of a side effect of the intent of the class, which was to gain the half-dragon template. It's attachment to Sorcerers always seemed to be more for convenience and to strengthen the Sorcerer idea of having their magic come from a touch of dragon blood in their family.
I believe that there are other PrCs that attempted something similar: Acolyte of the Skin (outsider), Alienist (pseudonatural), Elemental Savant (elemental), and Pale Master (undead). The only difference is that Dragon Disciple is the only PrC that gave you every ability of the half-template, power for power, plus a couple of nifty extras (bonus spells and wings no matter your size.)
With the 3.X versions of the classes, I see little reason to restrict most of those PrCs to spell casters with a little tweaking.
****Edit to add****
That said, from a DM point of view I think the PfRPG version of the Dragon Disciple is worlds better. Unless the Bestiary Half-Dragon is far different than the MM version you no longer become a half-dragon and your spell casting actually improves. I think they should have more PrCs like this for the other bloodlines wherein you delve deeper into your heritage, gaining greater abilities related to that heritage. It's a focusing of the character on a specific aspect of themselves to improve, which is one of the things that a PrC should be for.
As a player with a Duskblade, I loved becoming a half-dragon with the 3.X PrC. It allowed access to racially specific feats that are not accessible to the new version. With the PfRPG version, I still consider it one of my favorite PrCs and the loss of access to the racial feats and the massive strength boosts is well made up for by increased casting ability.
Dragon Disciple needs SOMETHING, since it being a melee PrC is a waste--you could just be a half-dragon and do melee better anyhow.
I'd just use the PRPG version, give it full BAB, and make its breath weapon at-will (and have it scale better).
On the subject of dragon disciple
I was looking over the blood line abilities of the sorc that advances while you advance the dragon disciple class abilities and i was wondering if the natural ac bonus from the sorc stacks with that of the dragon disciple? basically wondering if you would gain a total of +7 to your ac from natural armor?
On the subject of dragon disciple
I was looking over the blood line abilities of the sorc that advances while you advance the dragon disciple class abilities and i was wondering if the natural ac bonus from the sorc stacks with that of the dragon disciple? basically wondering if you would gain a total of +7 to your ac from natural armor?
I'd think they do stack because the Natural armor from the Dragon Disciple only adds to existing natural armor. So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.
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So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.
Wasn't stated in a core book that a lack of a natural armor bonus to your AC was treated as Natural Armor +0? Just like normal clothing provides an armor bonus of +0.
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Those kind of competitions are rarely productive IMO. Too many splatbooks and 3rd party materials to exploit. Even if you go core only, the PRPG character will tend to win because they have more abilities and better racial abilities than the 3.5 core character classes and races.
Productive? No. Fun? Yes.
So maybe we shouldn't have a competition to see which is better.
We need someone to make a (3.5)20th level character and a (PFRPG)20th level character(PFRPG). Then have them fight. Which ever DD wins will be the better PrC.
Check me out.
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We need someone to make a (3.5)20th level character and a (PFRPG)20th level character(PFRPG). Then have them fight. Which ever DD wins will be the better PrC.Check me out.
Okay, that is a bit more than what I suggested. I think the pfrpg DD only boosts your spells per day, your 21st level and a demigod.
Thats a bit much.
So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.Wasn't stated in a core book that a lack of a natural armor bonus to your AC was treated as Natural Armor +0? Just like normal clothing provides an armor bonus of +0.
I believe you are correct. At least that's how I'd treat it.
Still what I'm getting at is 3rd level Sorcerer Blood line set you Natural Armor to +1 at 3rd, +2 at 9th and +4 at 15th as it says you gain natural armor +X. The dragon disciple on the other hand says you get a Natural armor increase as you level up. So one gives you a natural armor and the other increases it.
So if you become a Dragon Disciple at 2nd Level which is the earliest you'd have a Natural AC bonus of 0 and 1st level DD give you +1 to that for +1 Natural Armor.
That's how I read at least.
We need someone to make a (3.5)20th level character and a (PFRPG)20th level character(PFRPG). Then have them fight. Which ever DD wins will be the better PrC.Check me out.
What's that Epic Destiny feat do?
So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.Wasn't stated in a core book that a lack of a natural armor bonus to your AC was treated as Natural Armor +0? Just like normal clothing provides an armor bonus of +0.I believe you are correct. At least that's how I'd treat it.
Still what I'm getting at is 3rd level Sorcerer Blood line set you Natural Armor to +1 at 3rd, +2 at 9th and +4 at 15th as it says you gain natural armor +X. The dragon disciple on the other hand says you get a Natural armor increase as you level up. So one gives you a natural armor and the other increases it.
So if you become a Dragon Disciple at 2nd Level which is the earliest you'd have a Natural AC bonus of 0 and 1st level DD give you +1 to that for +1 Natural Armor.
That's how I read at least.
May I suggest looking at the wording for Amulet of Natural Armor?
This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.
It seems to me that it is assumed that if you don't have a bonus to natural armor, then you are considered having a +0 natural armor.
This was covered somewhere? Maybe the MIC?
Backs to the DD, I just hope they create a variant that will let you get the template.
So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.Wasn't stated in a core book that a lack of a natural armor bonus to your AC was treated as Natural Armor +0? Just like normal clothing provides an armor bonus of +0.
Basically, yes, every creature that does not have a natural armor bonus has a "+0" natural armor just as characters wearing outfits (or being skyclad) have a "+0" armor bonus. Otherwise barkskin and amulets of natural armor are worthless to most normal player characters, only wild shaped druids along with various mounts, pets, familiars, animal companions and so forth get any benefit at all from the spell / item.
If you notice, both the spell and the item provide enhancement bonuses to natural armor, so the spell / item translates into an 'enhanced natural armor bonus' of + (number) for creatures and characters with +0 natural armor.
So technically the Dragon Disciple natural armor needs you to have natural armor already. The Sorc blood line gives you natural armor at 3rd level and Dragon Disciple augments that.Wasn't stated in a core book that a lack of a natural armor bonus to your AC was treated as Natural Armor +0? Just like normal clothing provides an armor bonus of +0.Basically, yes, every creature that does not have a natural armor bonus has a "+0" natural armor just as characters wearing outfits (or being skyclad) have a "+0" armor bonus. Otherwise barkskin and amulets of natural armor are worthless to most normal player characters, only wild shaped druids along with various mounts, pets, familiars, animal companions and so forth get any benefit at all from the spell / item.
If you notice, both the spell and the item provide enhancement bonuses to natural armor, so the spell / item translates into an 'enhanced natural armor bonus' of + (number) for creatures and characters with +0 natural armor.
Actually my understanding is that all bonuses default to +0 unless otherwise stated. Increases and adjustments to those bonuses follow the same rules for all other bonuses.
Specifically, multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack, but adjustments and increases are typeless (e.g. the familiar's bonus to Natural Armor).