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So this may be coming up in a month or so and I wanted to get advice from the Paizo community. I will be playing in an AP where there are only a couple players and the GM may go with the Gestalt option to allow us a chance to survive the adventures as written. So I am curious about some interesting gestalt combos. I thought Ranger/Rogue could be cool, definately a super hunter type character. What do you guys think? What interesting combinations have you considered? Assume that splatbooks and PFRPG will be available.
Tam
So this may be coming up in a month or so and I wanted to get advice from the Paizo community. I will be playing in an AP where there are only a couple players and the GM may go with the Gestalt option to allow us a chance to survive the adventures as written. So I am curious about some interesting gestalt combos. I thought Ranger/Rogue could be cool, definately a super hunter type character. What do you guys think? What interesting combinations have you considered? Assume that splatbooks and PFRPG will be available.
Tam
A Ranger/Rogue is fantastic as a melee combatant, especially if you follow the two-weapon path and use high threat-range weapons. I can't recall the name right now, but there is a feat in one of the Complete books that allows you to do sneak attack damage any time that you crit and another that allows you to crit/sneak attack any creature that is your favored enemy, even if otherwise uncritable. If you also take the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats from ToB you can have the Blood in the Water stance that grants a cumulative +1 att/dam for each time that you crt.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If you're looking at Ranger Rogue, maybe try Ranger Scout, as both complement each other nicely.
Fighter/Monk makes good martial.
I think Rogue will pretty much go well with anything, so making what ever class you want and splashing Rogue as your Secondary is an acceptable idea.
The Battle Dancer from the Dragon Magazine Compendium, is a good pairing for a Charisma based spellcasting class. Like monks they are unable to wear armor, but receive an AC bonus of +1/5 levels and add their Cha to AC instead of Wis. They have good reflex saves, unarmed damage progression, and various tumble/dance based movement bonuses.
For a lot of arcane spell nastiness, a Wizard/Duskblade can be a good combination. They both have the same primary casting stat, the duskblade gets an inordinate amount of spells per day (though not enough melee touch spells in my opinion) that he casts spontaneously through his melee weapon as part of his attack, and the wizard can learn any number of spells. This allows the gestalt character to memorize defensive and non-combat or just-in-case spells without minimizing his combat effectiveness.
For something completely different, a Psychic Warrior/Dragon Shaman could be an interesting pairing.
For diverse capabilities a Psion, Sorcerer, or Wizard paired with Cleric would be devastating.
Their are just so many complementary and/or interesting pairings available.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I was initially considering a Ranger/Rogue, especially since it allows me to fill two party roles nicely. I am also open to other suggestions and cool ideas though. Maybe a Warlock/something would be cool?
Tam
Well with the Errata for the Scout, they have DD as a Class Skill, so they can fill in for the Rogue.
I too have been trying to thnk of something to match with a Warlock...
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Bard/Dragon Shaman works too. The bonus you get from bardic music stacks with the bonus you can get from auras.
Monk/Rogue can be really fun. Even if you aren't flanking, once you use stunning fist(and it works), all that nice sneak attack damage can be used with flurry and your opponent is stunned.
Monk/Cleric. All those nice defensive spell combined with the monk's AC bonus and the buff spells for attack bonuses? Dangerous.
Druid/Rogue can make a extremely good theif. Anything the steal becomes part of them when they wildshape.
"Hey did you hear something from within that room?"
"Man, it's just a cat."
I was initially considering a Ranger/Rogue, especially since it allows me to fill two party roles nicely. I am also open to other suggestions and cool ideas though. Maybe a Warlock/something would be cool?
What do you want your Warlock/Whatever to do, or more specifically, do you want the Whatever part to make the Warlock part more powerful in combat?
For combat, there isn't much I can think of. After all, if you did something like Warlock/Sorcerer, it's not like you can fire off an Eldritch Blast and a Fireball in the same round. This is the limitation of gestalt. A group that has two different characters, one a warlock and one a sorcerer, can make both attacks, but a gestalt character still gets only one standard action each round. So a Combat/Combat gestalt isn't usually the strongest way to build.
Maybe a Rogue to get some sneak attack goodness on those ranged touch attacks. But with such a small group, you may not be able to get many sneak attacks.
Monk often goes well with all casters, since monks give the gestalt some melee capacity without bogging the character down in armor.
If you're satisfied that the Warlock half of your gestalt can handle the blasting, then maybe consider something that isn't all about combat for the other half. That's what I would do.
Maybe go with a divine class, something to put you back together after the fight is over. Or a leadership class to handle the RP stuff in town, get info, bargain, bluff, negotiate, etc.
Or maybe just go with Rogue for the traps and the huge skill list - which means you benefit in and out of combat.
Truth is, I dabbled with gestalt once and didn't use it long, so I don't know all the relevant rules. Can you PrC? Can you multiclass?
What if your gestalt looks like this:
Class1: Warlock 12/Hellfire Warlock 3
Class2: Rogue 6/Scout 6/Assassin 3
I'm not saying that's a great build (I just threw it together almost at random), but is all that kind of stuff allowed? If so, your options are very wide open.
A final consideration is what will the other guy play?
I really want to play a Monk Paladin that could be really cool with great survivability
Bard/Barbarian is a solid one for how the bonuses stack, though you need most stats at least at medium (you don't really need that high a Cha if you're mostly inspiring yourself). [Shoanti Totem type?]
Paladin/Sorcerer (Celestial/Destined Bloodline) could be pretty sick (two dump stats still even). Could even use Divine Bond on your Arcane Bond item if you went Arcane Bloodline. Quickened-True-Strike Smites by 10th level... *wince*. Only problem - very few feats. [Hellknight Academae graduate?]
Fighter/Monk would get weapon training bonuses to weapon-based maneuvers (trips and disarms). [This screams Osirion or Qadiran to me.]
One I don't see often is Barbarian/Rogue - extreme levels of damage, compatible armor styles too - you'll want Iron Will for sure though. Caught Off-guard and Improved Disarm (with Barb BAB & Str to CMB) could be murderous. [Ulfen Pirate!]
Edit: Or you could do what one of my players a while back did (briefly) - Bard/Sorcerer. [Varisian fortune teller - leading to Harrower off one class?]
P.S. I honestly would suggest you avoid attempting *any* additional multi-classing - attempting to figure out the saves and BAB can be nearly impossible. [Hint: If you do though, it's best to consider each "side" separate, then take the highest.]
I like the idea of a Rogue//Psychic Warrior/Slayer(with a variant to use int for manifesting)
I was initially considering a Ranger/Rogue, especially since it allows me to fill two party roles nicely. I am also open to other suggestions and cool ideas though. Maybe a Warlock/something would be cool?
I rather enjoy playing a Catfolk Warlock//Scout. The Warlock//Fighter was fun, too, esp. if he takes the Eldritch Glaive invocation from (Complete Mage, I think).
I once played a gestalt Rogue(Assassin)/Warlock. He was unstoppable. His HP were weak but it's not like anyone ever knew I was there until it was too late. With a couple of feats that upgrade your flying to perfect, you're silent, invisible, leave no tracks, can cast any spell you want from scrolls (arcane or divine), use ANY magic item, take on any disguise you want and unless you do something stupid, you can always get away if need be. I had a lot of fun with this character. He literally could have turned on the group and wiped them all out if he wanted (at higher levels).
Another interesting combo that would be fun to try out is the Fighter(Arcane Archer)/Wizard (or Sorcerer). You could fight from a great distance not to mention all of the other cool things that you could think of attaching to your arrows when you actually have spells to work with (unlike the normal AA).
There are certainly some awesome ideas here that I will have to explore further.
How about this then? How would you design the perfect 3 person gestalt party?
Would it look something like this?
Monk/Cleric
Rogue/Ranger
Sorcerer or Wizard/Fighter
If you want those 6 classes, I would switch them a bit like this:
Monk/Sorcerer or Wizard
Rogue/Ranger
Cleric/Fighter
This way the first guy doesn't need armor, and the last guy is in full plate. The way you had it your fighter would have to rely on bracers of armor and would never have a good AC, or would risk spell failure on all his spells.
I once played a gestalt Rogue(Assassin)/Warlock. He was unstoppable. His HP were weak but it's not like anyone ever knew I was there until it was too late. With a couple of feats that upgrade your flying to perfect, you're silent, invisible, leave no tracks, can cast any spell you want from scrolls (arcane or divine), use ANY magic item, take on any disguise you want and unless you do something stupid, you can always get away if need be. I had a lot of fun with this character. He literally could have turned on the group and wiped them all out if he wanted (at higher levels).
What were his invocations and where did they come from? Most of what you said seems to be from Complete Arcane, but I want to make sure(so I can make my own in the game I'm in).
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Now if you want to be a divine casting powerhouse, go with Druid/Spirit Shaman. At 6th level, all your weapons and armor are consideredghost touch, which means if you have wild armor when you wild shape, incorpereal creatures had better watch out.
For an arcane soldier, go Duskblade/Warmage. Large amounts of spells per day and you can deal damage from afar and close up. Both classes can cast in armor, and the Battle Mage feat from Complete Arcane can get you in heavier armor faster.
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Monk/Sorcerer or Wizard
Rogue/Ranger
Cleric/FighterThis way the first guy doesn't need armor, and the last guy is in full plate. The way you had it your fighter would have to rely on bracers of armor and would never have a good AC, or would risk spell failure on all his spells.
This, or you could replace ranger with bard for a more urban campaign.
You've got an uber-paladin, an arcane caster who can fight and has a load of cool tricks and immunities and a skill monkey from skill monkey heaven (the rogue ranger version is lethal, rogue bard is just full of utility).
I once played a gestalt Rogue(Assassin)/Warlock. He was unstoppable. His HP were weak but it's not like anyone ever knew I was there until it was too late. With a couple of feats that upgrade your flying to perfect, you're silent, invisible, leave no tracks, can cast any spell you want from scrolls (arcane or divine), use ANY magic item, take on any disguise you want and unless you do something stupid, you can always get away if need be. I had a lot of fun with this character. He literally could have turned on the group and wiped them all out if he wanted (at higher levels).What were his invocations and where did they come from? Most of what you said seems to be from Complete Arcane, but I want to make sure(so I can make my own in the game I'm in).
At the time, Complete Arcane was the only source that you could draw invocations from (that I knew of) so yes, they all came from there. He was primarily a Rogue/Assassin and used Warlock as a supplimentary class.
As far as I can remember, he used things like Hideous Blow (combined with sneak attack), Darkness, Devil's Sight, See the Unseen, Invisibility, Fell Flight, Flee the Seen, Voidsense, Shadow Walk and Foreshadow. He had other more offensive ones also and traded up for better versions of some as he neared 20th level. By the time that campaign had ended (I think he was level 18 or 19), he was throwing Meteor Dooms and just about any other spell he wanted to from scrolls. He was also a master of disguise. Nothing says great disguise like bustin' a white Robe of the Archmagi. He literally could do just about anything.
Check out some of the newer invocations from Complete Mage and Dragon Magic as well. There's a couple good ones that would probably make you even more sneaky and deadly. The thought of picking someone's pocket or disabling a trap from the other side of the room with a disembodied hand sounds too cool to pass up.
As far as I can remember, he used things like Hideous Blow (combined with sneak attack), Darkness, Devil's Sight, See the Unseen, Invisibility, Fell Flight, Flee the Seen, Voidsense, Shadow Walk and Foreshadow. He had other more offensive ones also and traded up for better versions of some as he neared 20th level. By the time that campaign had ended (I think he was level 18 or 19), he was throwing Meteor Dooms and just about any other spell he wanted to from scrolls. He was also a master of disguise. Nothing says great disguise like bustin' a white Robe of the Archmagi. He literally could do just about anything.
It's so simple...
Thank you.
It's so simple...
Thank you.
No problem.
The Assassin's spells eventually allow you to replace some of your Warlock abilities with others later on as well. If you're starting at a low level, Darkness/Devil's Sight is a great combo to start with for this build (for obvious reasons).
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Monk clerics really don't work all that well. Clerics need the higher AC and essentually need all good stats, except maybe int if you don't want enough skills. Unfortionatly, any armor negates many monk features, and many feats don't complement the monk and cleric well. However, on surprize rounds that you get to act on, casting a touch spell and holding the charge for a later flurry can be great.
Monk/sorcerers are very awesome, however. High and low levels. At low levels, look at spells like shocking grasp, that allow you to make multiple attacks with it after the first round. Mage armor + Shield + Dex + Wis + Greater Magic Vestment (mage Armor) gets rediculous.
The ultimate tank combo is the Fighter/Warmage. He can wear heavy armor (before too long), carry a greatsword, greataxe or scyth in hand and can blast the living daylights out of everything. I played one for about two adventures but got terribly bored with him. I don't really enjoy playing that type of character but I imagine that a lot of people probably would.
Other good ones:
Fighter (Order of the Bow Initiate)/Rogue
Warlock (Mindbender)/Beguiler
Scout/Wizard (who takes Mobile Spellcasting)
Swashbuckler/Wizard
Sorcerer/Favored Soul
Hexblade/Paladin of Slaughter (from Unearthed Arcana?)
Warlock/Dragonfire Adept
* Just thought of this one. Might need an okay from the DM to allow the Eldrich Blast and Breath Weapon to stack by taking a feat or something.
Battledancer//Bard is incredibly fun. I'm playing one in our Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. You get unarmed attacks as a Monk (minus flurry of misses, plus full BAB), Charisma to AC, AC that improves with levels, a few special acrobatics-based abilities (including Pounce!), combined with all the Bard goodness. Take the Combat Panache tactical feat from PHB2 for even more fun. It's tank-ish with the high AC and d10 hit points (thanks to the Battledancer's full BAB), a good buffer with the bardic abilities, has a good offense once you start Inspiring Courage, and can even fill in as a secondary healer if you take a few healing spells. A very solid all-around character and there are so many interesting ways to RP it.
I'm currently toying with the idea of a Warlock/Paladin of Tyranny character (sort of a champion of Gargauth in FR). It looks good on paper but I haven't test it yet.
From past experience, I love the half-elf ranger/bard combination. Mechanically it can be interesting but I was in a campaign where fey played a heavy part of the story and I could advance certain areas of the story by using bardic performances and then hunting certain creatures (or evading hunting parties of dark fey).
Paladin/sorcerer was also fun.
Absolute most successful, githzerai monk/psychic warrior. Take weapon finesse and then the appropriate powers and he was nearly unstopable.
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So I think I have settled on a Monk/Spearsage, or at least what is what I am going to call the swordsage. I am aware of and can take the Kung Fu Genius feat from Dragon Compendium. My DM will let me use a spear as a Shadow Hand Weapon.
I think this character could be a blast. Very mobile. The image of the martial artist spinning and flipping using both ends of the spear as a weapon is pretty cool. The background I am coming up with for him is pretty awesome.
So then, my question changes to advice about this particular combination of classes in a gestalt build. I am waiting eagerly to see what the PFRPG Monk looks like.
There are some polearm fighting feats in Dragon Compendium that are pretty awesome. I am thinking about looking for something that will allow me to apply dex or int to damage with melee weapons. Dex and Int will certainly be my focus with the Kung Fu Genius feat allowing me to use int instead of wis for monk abilities and AC bonus, there won't be a lot of points left over for strength. Definately a finesse build.
I own every WotC book for 3.5, though they are not handy and won't be again until I return home.
My GM is pretty open as long as the cheese isn't to funky. A nice gouda is ok, but stinky feet cheese, nah. I feel the same way. This build may already seem a little min/max munchkin, but it is really just my attempt to build a character that can survive and contribute meaningfully in a 3 character AoW game.
So what advice do you guys have? What sources should I look to for other great Monk and Swordsage material? Or just ideas about the build and how it will work in play.
Thanks,
Tam
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Swashbuckler/Duskblade. You get Weapon Finesse for free, and can later add you Int mod(the casting stat for duskblades) adding to you weapon damage. Take levels in the Duelist PrC instead of Swashbuckler so you can add your Int mod to your AC, and you can have a fun melee character.
For fun up close and far away, Swashbyckler/Warmage is a good combination too. Adding your Int mod to damage from weapons and spells can make you dangerous( especially with the Orb of Sound spells. Take Deulist levels for the same reason as above. The only thing I worry about is if you use a weapon-like spell, and you can't figure out if if you add your Int mod from both class features(insightful strike and warmage edge) for double damage. I don't think you can, but you never know...