Okay, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why does the Elf on page 8 of the Beta Core Rulebook look like a giant body builder (or a WoW Night Elf)?
The Elf takes -2 to Constitution, but looks like he's on steroids? Doesn't this art depiction go completely against the traditional Elf in D&D's long history? Aren't Elves typically shorter than humans and more graceful?
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While I will agree that D&D elves are described as being shorter than man the Tolkien elf (my preference) is actually taller. But the pic in question actually depicts Ar'Neld Shwa'Nizinger the famous elven body builder who later went on to become the ruler of the land of Kalifornia.(Little known fact) ;p
While I will agree that D&D elves are described as being shorter than man the Tolkien elf (my preference) is actually taller. But the pic in question actually depicts Ar'Neld Shwa'Nizinger the famous elven body builder who later went on to become the ruler of the land of Kalifornia.(Little known fact) ;p
I see your point about Tolkien elves, but this doesn't even really fit Tolkien's description either. The Elf on page eight looks blatantly ripped off from a WoW Night Elf. I thought 4E was the game ripping off MMOs, don't tell me that Pathfinder is falling into the same trap.
Even if this is the way elves in Pathfinder are going to appear, then why are they described as "frail" and get hit with -2 Con modifier? Either the Con modifier needs to be removed, or the art needs to be changed (the latter is preferred obviously). This is a slap in the face to 3.5.
This is only my second post (as I just discovered Pathfinder a couple days ago), and I hear the game has already gone to the printers. I sure as hell hope someone has brought this up already before I did.
Creative Director
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The elf in that illustration was among the first illustrations we ordered, well over a year ago and well before we nailed down their final look, both for elves AND for the style of art we use. We've since moved well away from the more "cartoony" look into more "painted" looking artwork, and for the final book, we've redone that artwork pretty significantly (painted by Steve Prescott, the artist who did the covers for Second Darkness and several other Pathfinder products).
Elves are still attractive and fit looking; they don't look emaciated or starving. But neither do they look like He Man.
Okay, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but why does the Elf on page 8 of the Beta Core Rulebook look like a giant body builder (or a WoW Night Elf)?
The Elf takes -2 to Constitution, but looks like he's on steroids? Doesn't this art depiction go completely against the traditional Elf in D&D's long history? Aren't Elves typically shorter than humans and more graceful?
-2 Con. Not -2 Str.
And they did away with the "shorter than humans" nonsense. Tall and graceful makes a lot more sense than short. Short is for dwarves, gnomes and halflings.
I see your point about Tolkien elves, but this doesn't even really fit Tolkien's description either. The Elf on page eight looks blatantly ripped off from a WoW Night Elf. I thought 4E was the game ripping off MMOs, don't tell me that Pathfinder is falling into the same trap.
We're talking about the illustration of one race. Just the illustration, nothing else. An early illustration to boot.
Even if this is the way elves in Pathfinder are going to appear, then why are they described as "frail" and get hit with -2 Con modifier? Either the Con modifier needs to be removed, or the art needs to be changed (the latter is preferred obviously). This is a slap in the face to 3.5.
Slap in the face? Don't you think you're overreacting a bit? Or a lot?
Again: Str and Con are two different ability scores. You can have strong elves that are still low on con.
Wow, as much as I hate the sickly elves I have to say, calling it a slap in the face of 3.5 is an insult to the good folks at Paizo and pure over reaction. Chill out, calm down, play some WoW and remember FOR THE HORDE!
P.S. If wow isn't your thing then read a nice fluffy Pathfinder supplement.
Only 2nd post and already being told by other posters to go play video games because you can't handle roleplaying games. Well done my friend, well done.
Cool it guys...
though "slap in the face" is a bit.. well, whatever, the man hasn't killed any kittens.
let's play nice.
Wow, I'm so in tune with the universe today!
Peace and sticky-pink love to all of you!
GRU
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Creative Director
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Please don't lash out at each other; everyone's opinion is as important as everyone else's. Especially newcomers to the forums; everyone's welcome here, after all!
That extends to badmouthing Warcraft, to be honest, which is a very fun game in its own right.
Again, the elf in the illustration in question is not the standard look for elves we've settled on. Our iconic rogue, Merisiel, is a lot closer to the look we're going with for elves. Tall and thin and kinda creepy looking but still pretty.
We DID make elves taller than humans, which also means half-elves are slightly taller than humans. Half-orcs are taller as well. This is by design, actually; this way, humans are truly in the middle, with three taller races and three shorter races, as a pretty subtle way to help set humans up as the median and standard for the game's races.
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Again, the elf in the illustration in question is not the standard look for elves we've settled on. Our iconic rogue, Merisiel, is a lot closer to the look we're going with for elves. Tall and thin and kinda creepy looking but still pretty.
The relevant question is, are those ears digital compatible, or do I need to get a converter box?
j/k, don't ban me ;)
If anyone misconstrued my comments as badmouthing WoW or saying people who can't handle RPG's should go play WoW I apologize. I like the game, I don't play it myself but live vicariously through my roommates (I lack the time and money to pump into an MMORPG) and my comment was meant to get the message that people were getting a little harsh and should calm down a bit. If the J-mans post had nothing to do with mine then...
*waves hand* you never read this response!
If you look at the picture of the printout of the final version of the PFRPG, you'll see that the new races page looks quite different from that of the Beta.
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Was just cracking wise with ya' Lumin, I know the pic is kinda cheesy for the steroid elf but eh, my wife seemed to like it...alot ;p
My guess is just chalk it up to an artist style, PF has done great things IMO with the fantasy staple races. Oh and from one newcomer to another welcome to the boards man.
Seeing the races lineup, a more important question comes to my mind :
Who on Golarion invented the bra ? Gnomes ?
That is indeed a question for the sages...
Ah I thought it had been regular use of the unlimited casting of supportive cantrips.
Update to Pathfinder for 24-hr comfort and support.
I see your point about Tolkien elves, but this doesn't even really fit Tolkien's description either. The Elf on page eight looks blatantly ripped off from a WoW Night Elf. I thought 4E was the game ripping off MMOs, don't tell me that Pathfinder is falling into the same trap.
Defined class roles strictly enforced because of one picture. I don't think so, no Pathfinder is D&D still not PnP WoW like the other companies product is.
Plus his knuckles aint hitting the ground, that would be full out WoW. But even if you got slight slender thin elves you could call it WoW like, the blood elves, were the women are women and so are the men....
Personally I use the Tolken Elf as my typical elf, anyway it is just a BETA picture. Chances are good they will change it to fit the discrition they gave for the release Pathfinder book.
Even MORE important: What IS Seoni's secret?Seeing the races lineup, a more important question comes to my mind :
Who on Golarion invented the bra ? Gnomes ?Carefully applied applications of Eagle's Splendor...
In other words... she is... enhanced!
She sure is....
And let's be honest if you had access to magic and it was a simple spell that enhanced your appeal to the opposite gender, wouldn't you use it?
Okay, the "slap in the face" comment was a bit harsh. I apologize.
I didn't realize that the "cartoony" art in the book would eventually be swapped out for the final print. That's a big relief.
This picture looks MUCH better and the elf looks to be only a few inches taller than the human, not an entire foot like the beta image. Also, I like that he's not blue anymore.
Can anyone site the source from Tolkien's works where it describes Elves as being taller than humans? I understood it that they were only slightly taller or of equal height to humans. The image in the final print looks closer to this representation than the beta that's for sure.
I think the art representation is pretty important, actually, in a RPG - especially of the races. Because that's the image engrained in your head from that point forward about the races. Also, if their average height is not specified in the racial description (which it is not in the beta), I can see players going strictly by the image for the height. This could lead to arguments with the GM about their character getting a height bonus for certain circumstances because the picture says so.
By the way, I'm totally excited for Pathfinder. My friends have all bought D&D 4e, but I just couldn't bring myself to do so because so many things bothered me about it. I had hoped that D&D 4e would be what Pathfinder is going to be.
I feel sorry for the artist who did the original lineup art. It seems like every time his work gets mentioned it's getting slammed.
I really liked his art. That picture and Lini made me want to play a gnome for the first time ever.
I feel sorry for the artist who did the original lineup art. It seems like every time his work gets mentioned it's getting slammed.
I really liked his art. That picture and Lini made me want to play a gnome for the first time ever.
I liked a lot of the art as well. Some of the more "painty" bits were very good. Then, some of it looks very JRPG-ish which I don't like very much.
The race part just hit a nerve because I think it's one of the most important images that just needs to be "right".
The race part just hit a nerve because I think it's one of the most important images that just needs to be "right".
"Right" is a question that's pretty subjective. I would like it to project the style the RPG designers want to project, because it will affect our visualizations, at least initially, of the characters we encounter and help set the tone for the game.
The race part just hit a nerve because I think it's one of the most important images that just needs to be "right"."Right" is a question that's pretty subjective. I would like it to project the style the RPG designers want to project, because it will affect our visualizations, at least initially, of the characters we encounter and help set the tone for the game.
"Right" meaning, it better darn well match up pretty closely to what the description of an Elf is. If it says "Frail" and takes -2 CON, it better look like it as well.
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I feel sorry for the artist who did the original lineup art. It seems like every time his work gets mentioned it's getting slammed.
I really liked his art. That picture and Lini made me want to play a gnome for the first time ever.
I know at least one other girl who wanted to play a gnome due to that picture too.
My only wish was that they had included both male and female examples for each race, like in the 3.x books, instead of choosing only one or the other. Using the short races as an example, I've seen new players choose gnomes if they're girls and halflings if they're boys just because that's how it is in the picture. I was really hoping that was just going to be an issue with the beta due to limited space but would be a full two-page spread with both genders represented in the final version.
Oh well.
"Right" meaning, it better darn well match up pretty closely to what the description of an Elf is. If it says "Frail" and takes -2 CON, it better look like it as well.
Who is more frail. Arnold like body builders or Lance Armstrong?
Arnold is, on his best day he couldn't bike one days worth of the tour de france. Now he could lift Lance over his head easily but take them both for a run, I bet Arnold (in his youth) can't run half the distance Lance can.
Strength is one thing, Endurance (Con) is another.
Compared to Lance, Arnold would have a -2 Con.
Again, the elf in the illustration in question is not the standard look for elves we've settled on. Our iconic rogue, Merisiel, is a lot closer to the look we're going with for elves. Tall and thin and kinda creepy looking but still pretty.
I generally like her look here, especially as she does not have those Manga style super boobs I´ve seen in fantasy art recently. (double F or something) I can´t stand that stuff anymore, especially in "slender" elves and the like.
Stefan
Looks like the gnomes and halflings still worship Ani as a patron goddess, however.
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FEED THEM? AT LEAST ONE OF THEM?
We have two Small races -- both of which are plump in the source material (emaciated hobbits? skinny garden gnomes?) -- and now they both have to be built like Kate Moss?
Can anyone site the source from Tolkien's works where it describes Elves as being taller than humans? I understood it that they were only slightly taller or of equal height to humans. The image in the final print looks closer to this representation than the beta that's for sure.
You'll find it in Unfinished Tales and/or the Silmarillion if I recall correctly. It'd take me a bit to dig up the specific references, but the Men of Númenor were renowned for being nearly as tall as some elves, and they were somewhere around 6'4". Elendil was nearly 8', while Elwë, Turgon, and Argon were taller still. Elwë, for instance, is speculated at 9'.
In any case, it's definite that Tolkien elves are taller than most humans, and this is one thing I've always house-ruled in D&D as I never liked the "Keebler Elf" look from standard rules.
IIRC, the Tuatha Dé Danann might have been an inspiration for Tolkien elves, but I'm not 100% sure.
IIRC, the Tuatha Dé Danann might have been an inspiration for Tolkien elves, but I'm not 100% sure.
The Tuathan were in some respects similar to the Norse Alfar (elves), which IIRC were Tolkien's direct inspiration.
IIRC, the Tuatha Dé Danann might have been an inspiration for Tolkien elves, but I'm not 100% sure.
Woo! Tuatha Dé Danaan! I'm just glad the gods of that era of Ireland weren't drawn directly as influence, or it would have been a very different lords of the rings!
I think its small country syndrome, but if Ireland or such gets mentioned in a Paizo light I get very proud and happy. Meh.
I like the art, its by Arnold Tsang, but it gets so much flak that it really had to be replaced. I too lament not having one example from each sex for each race, but I'd rather gorgeous Steve Prescott colour images than doubling up.
As I understand it, the iconic characters are basiced on class, not race. As in Merisiel is the iconic rogue and not the iconic elf, and Harsk is not the iconic dwarf, but ranger. So I just what I'm asking is are there going to be any iconic characters based on race? The iconic elf and halfling and dwarf? I sure hope so.
An interesting idea but I don't see how it stands on its own. Iconic characters are not just their class but also their race. They also have a core character personality/concept. If Merisiel was any other race she wouldn't be Merisiel. Amiri wouldn't really be Amiri if she had a greatsword and weapon focus instead of a large bastard sword and its exotic weapon proficiency.
There is room for a few more iconics, basing more on race. Unless I missed one there isn't a halfling or half-orc. What character conpcets and class would go with them? I would have no idea.
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Creative Director
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As I understand it, the iconic characters are basiced on class, not race. As in Merisiel is the iconic rogue and not the iconic elf, and Harsk is not the iconic dwarf, but ranger. So I just what I'm asking is are there going to be any iconic characters based on race? The iconic elf and halfling and dwarf? I sure hope so.
Not really; the point of showing the races in their lineup wearing underwear was to not tie any of the races specifically to a class role AND to not tie them to a specific character. They're certainly images we'll use to send to artists as reference, but there isn't going to be anything like actual characters to represent the races.
Can anyone site the source from Tolkien's works where it describes Elves as being taller than humans? I understood it that they were only slightly taller or of equal height to humans. The image in the final print looks closer to this representation than the beta that's for sure.You'll find it in Unfinished Tales and/or the Silmarillion if I recall correctly. It'd take me a bit to dig up the specific references, but the Men of Númenor were renowned for being nearly as tall as some elves, and they were somewhere around 6'4". Elendil was nearly 8', while Elwë, Turgon, and Argon were taller still. Elwë, for instance, is speculated at 9'.
In any case, it's definite that Tolkien elves are taller than most humans, and this is one thing I've always house-ruled in D&D as I never liked the "Keebler Elf" look from standard rules.
The Hobbit comments on the height of Elves, in both the story and the glossary, as does the glossary in the the Trilogy if I remember correctly.
It's in all that "dry stuff" at the end of the books.
There is room for a few more iconics, basing more on race. Unless I missed one there isn't a halfling or half-orc. What character conpcets and class would go with them? I would have no idea.
Lem? Our local Led Zepplin Bard? With soft yet furry feet??? Search the blog if you must, all iconics are under at least the wayne reynolds tag.
There is a halfling, shame on you for forgetting sir, but then, thats exactly what the halfling wanted.
There is room for a few more iconics, basing more on race. Unless I missed one there isn't a halfling or half-orc. What character conpcets and class would go with them? I would have no idea.Lem? Our local Led Zepplin Bard? With soft yet furry feet??? Search the blog if you must, all iconics are under at least the wayne reynolds tag.
There is a halfling, shame on you for forgetting sir, but then, thats exactly what the halfling wanted.
'They have a plan.'
Even MORE important: What IS Seoni's secret?It's the best mail-order lingerie catalog this side of Varisia.
Of course, I will be the only one receiving a Seoni's Secret Catalog this year, on account of my taking Seoni hostage.
That thread is dead. Let it repose in its afterlife.
Summon not practitioners of the dark arts to give it a false animation that resembles true life.
I, too, am opposed to the unthread.
And by the way: Seoni asks when she can have her simulacrum back.
I, too, am opposed to the unthread.
And by the way: Seoni asks when she can have her simulacrum back.
Umm.....what does Seoni needs a pleasure Simulacrum of her self for? And what is she doing with interface zeros tech?
*pulls on the tin foil hat.*
