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I am not sure where to put this post.
I know that many people are very happy with this product, but I will have to admit i am a little disappointment with it. Perhaps my expectations were set too high. I am a big fan of Paizo's stuff. I find most of their products extremely well written, and presented. I like the art work. For some reason this product fell short. From my understanding, Absolom is to Golaron as Waterdeep is to Faerun, or Grayhawk is to the Flanness, or Ptolas is to well the world of Ptolas. Absolom is the big cosmopolitan adventurer friendly city.
I think that Paizo had done a great job creating a fantasy campaign setting which has its "own" feel to it. This is hard to do in the limited confines of the Fantasy Genere. For me one of the distinguishing features of the Pathfinder setting is colossal archetecture. In addition to this architecture being big, it is built on a much larger then a human scale. This civilization is existing amongst the bones of previous civilizations, and those bones are visibly littered all over the place. The Varisian cities all have some defining piece of colossal architecture. Magnimar has the Irespan (great image on P65 of pathfiner #2). Korvosa has the Grand Mastaba upon which Castle Korvosa sits (great image on p6 of the guide to Korvos). Riddleport has the Cyphergate (great image 60 in Pathfinder #3 and page 47 in pathfinder # 13). Kaer Maga itself is built into the walls of a colossal structure. Oh lets not forget the Storval Stairs (great image pathfinder's players guide p12) and the Skulls Crossing dam, which holds back the Storval deep ( great maps p. 41 of pathfinder #3 and great image above the table of contents and on the cover). And last but not least there is the visage of Runelord Karzoug carved into the side of the Mhar Massif (image on P 6 of Pathfinder #6) and the Stone Dragon curled around a mountain, Eando Kline found in a mountain range (p 72 of Pathfinder #9). All of this Colossal architecture makes sense because the Thassilonian Runelords, enslaved giants to build their empire.
This theme continues in the Campaign setting book. On page 52 there is an image of what I think is the Arch of Aroden. On Page 118 there is an image of Sothis. In the middle of the city there is a big beetle. Im not sure what this beetle is all about, but it fits.
Now we get to Absalom. Perhaps i am missing something, but I havn't found any truly colossal buildings or architecture. I suppose the Starstone Cathedral might fit the bill but, from the images on pages 2 and 8 of the guide, it looks like a large cathedral, big but human scaled. I looked for other images and on p 56 of the campaign guide I think there is an image of the Cathedral which houses the Starstone in the Ascendant court. It looks big, but doesn't seem colossal. Perhaps a human figure would give it scale.
Unlike the guide to Korvosa, which had personalities which pulled me in and made me want to learn more about he city, I have yet to find such interesting people in Absolom. Perhaps i havn't looked hard enough. I also liked the city layout of Korvosa. I liked how the river curved around the peninsula to the sea, creating an island at the head of the peninsula. I liked how you could see the groth of Korvosa, from the fort on the hill on that island, to the old city to the rest of the peninsula. I haven't seen any such intregueing details in Absolom. the city just seems to be a circular sprawl with a harbor. Again Perhaps i am missing some of the finer details.
Finer details.... this brings me to my last whine. No poster map. I have said enough. I am disappointed with the product. I still like it, I still think it is a good product, just not one I want to go back devour, read every page, and wring any easter eggs from.
I liked the link between Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and a Second darkness, namely meeting Orik Vancaskerkin in Burnt offerings, his brother Verik in the Edge of Anarchy, and thier father Saul in Shadow in the Sky. I aslo enjoyed figuring out what was in the box that Eando Kline didn't open. I like most of what Paizo produces, I enjoy the characters you write. Unfortunalty I don't feel the guide to Absolom was on par with previous works like the guide to Korvosa. it was a good piece of work, just not in my opinion and excellent one. I suppose i was expecting more, because Absolom is your flagship city. Perhaps I have missed something. Perhaps I have overlooked obvious things. I hope your future work continues to be excellent. As much as i liked Varisia, I am looking forward to the Legacy of Fire, and the chance to see another part of Galoron. Good luck.
If I have missed anything, or overlooked a particularly interesting NPC in Absolom please let me know. Thanks.
On Page 118 there is an image of Sothis. In the middle of the city there is a big beetle. Im not sure what this beetle is all about, but it fits.
Can't comment much on the Absolom book, haven't yet got my hands on it, but wanted to point out that the information about the beetle in Sothis can be found on page 119 of the Campaign setting.
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Lemme see if I can answer some of your questions/statements based on my own thoughts from the same books.
Firstly, I do think you've missed something in your comparison of Absalom to the cities of Varisia -- by comparing the two I can see where Absalom might feel less "grand" and more "human" in scale. It is true that it has no old Thassilonian ruins to point to and ogle over, but that is because the island didn't exist before Aroden pulled it from the depths and created the city. So in that sense, Absalom is "young" ... it doesn't have the ancient culture to build upon. However, the city is nearly 5000 years old, which I don't think any other city can claim (Korvosa is about 300 years old, and Magnimar is only 100 years old).
That said, there are, to me at least, a number of grand architectures about the city -- the Starstone Cathedral, those amazing crane/lifts on the docks, the mix of cultural elements (page 52 has a delightful quote that gives the feeling of layers of design styles stacked upon the old bones of the city Aroden built). Then there are the fun bits ... that bar where you're wading through water for a drink, the kit flying, the parks ...
I'd recommend a reread of the book, and looking at Absalom on its own merits, rather than in comparison to the cities of Varisia. To me, it's like comparing any of the sprawling cities of the US to those of Europe -- each have their own beauty, but they don't truly compare because their history is totally different.
Hope this helps some!
Creative Director
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I suppose i was expecting more, because Absolom is your flagship city. Perhaps I have missed something. Perhaps I have overlooked obvious things. I hope your future work continues to be excellent. As much as i liked Varisia, I am looking forward to the Legacy of Fire, and the chance to see another part of Galoron. Good luck.
Sorry the book didn't do it for you... but the truth is, not every product can be equally great. Hopefully, we don't produce anything that EVERYONE hates, but I doubt we'll ever produce something that EVERYONE loves either. So... it's perfectly okay if you aren't a fan of Absalom.
And while Absalom is the largest city in the Inner Sea region... I don't think it's really our "flagship" city. I'd honestly say that Korvosa's our flagship city so far, since there's been a LOT more work done on Korvosa than any other city in the campaign setting: It's had a poster map, a 64 page book, a player's introduction guide, and an entire adventure path about it. Plus there's a lot more indirect support material for Korvosa in the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.
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Creative Director
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My only complaint with this book was that it wasn't enough. A 1st/2nd edition style boxed set with poster maps, NPC picture cards, a monster book, an adventure, etc. would have been awesome. Not practical, but awesome.
Some days I miss TSR and their boxed sets of unnecessary opulence.
Same here. Of course, the fact that those boxed sets played a role in WHY there's no TSR anymore is worth remembering as well...
While it might not be gigantic in size physically, Absalom has the STARSTONE in it, and is the birthplace of 4 gods. I think that's a pretty nice feather in it's cap.
That, and it's actually been created by a god. Literally - he raised the island from out of the sea and conjured up a city. Not something many cities can boast.
I don't know about anyone else, and I've never seen a map of Waterdeep, but Absalom seems massive to me, people have to get elephants to the center city to work, and the sense of scale from the map is immense, it makes sharn look like an average sized town in comparison.
I went into the book thinking that I might find it an odd city, but I love huge fantasy metropolises, and after finishing the book I was converted! Badgers and all!
Finer details.... this brings me to my last whine. No poster map.
James is right when he says you can't please everyone. Case in point: I would have gladly traded in the poster map from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting for a full-page political map in the book. As it is, if I want to look at which countries surround the Inner Sea (say), I either need to whip out the poster map or look at the world map on the Pathfinder Wiki -- neither of which is convenient to me if I'm reading on the subway.
The inside front & back covers are the perfect place for maps, IMO.
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Same here. Of course, the fact that those boxed sets played a role in WHY there's no TSR anymore is worth remembering as well...My only complaint with this book was that it wasn't enough. A 1st/2nd edition style boxed set with poster maps, NPC picture cards, a monster book, an adventure, etc. would have been awesome. Not practical, but awesome.
Some days I miss TSR and their boxed sets of unnecessary opulence.
The core sets were fine, they were a company which spread itself thin, think of all the "extra" games beyond core D&D. I'm sure those only sold in mediocre numbers. (Conan, Indiana Jones, Boot Hill, etc). Not to mention "The divorce".
If Paizo started making 4 or 5 different sub-products, I'm sure they'd fold also. I'm a little worried by Mongoose's expansion, they are going to be expanding upon a lot of product lines, hopefully they won't stretch themselves too thin.
As a GM, I have come to a point in roleplaying games that I don't need rules anymore.
I have enough rulebooks to play for the rest of my life. And the one after that. And maybe another one.
Beyond systems, editions, rulebooks and tables, what I am looking for now is some new ideas, concepts, flavors, vibes, atmospheres, inspiration...
As said in modern lingua : Less crunch. More fluff.
In that regard, I mostly get my inspiration from history books, novels, museums, movies, documentaries, travels, and yes, Paizo products.
I am running my own homebrew setting for 24 years now, and i don't plan to change for another one.
I don't plan either to add new things inside just because they appear in a new edition or supplement and look cool.
But I still constantly buy new books, such as Pathfinder and Golarion products.
I know that I probably won't ever use them as such, but I will certainly find some inspiration from the good ideas they are filled with.
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I thought the Absalom book was a good introduction and would make a good port of call - particularly if the Pathfinder Society headquarters are detailed.
I do agree that the material in the book feels too thin to run a campaign there due to the high-level of detail provided. I would definitely continue to buy products that provide additional detail about Absalom - and hopefully we'll see some more information as time goes on.
The Absalom book was useful in that I now feel I 'get' the city - and that's roughly what I expected from 64 pages.
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And while Absalom is the largest city in the Inner Sea region... I don't think it's really our "flagship" city. I'd honestly say that Korvosa's our flagship city so far, since there's been a LOT more work done on Korvosa than any other city in the campaign setting: It's had a poster map, a 64 page book, a player's introduction guide, and an entire adventure path about it. Plus there's a lot more indirect support material for Korvosa in the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.
Hmm, sounds like Absalom could use a few more products to gain proper flagship status. How about an AP set there? Map Pack? It's own set of magic item cards? A second chronicles book?
Isn't there a module or two set in and around the city?
Just looking for more material. Thanks.
And while Absalom is the largest city in the Inner Sea region... I don't think it's really our "flagship" city. I'd honestly say that Korvosa's our flagship city so far, since there's been a LOT more work done on Korvosa than any other city in the campaign setting: It's had a poster map, a 64 page book, a player's introduction guide, and an entire adventure path about it. Plus there's a lot more indirect support material for Korvosa in the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path.Hmm, sounds like Absalom could use a few more products to gain proper flagship status. How about an AP set there? Map Pack? It's own set of magic item cards? A second chronicles book?
Isn't there a module or two set in and around the city?
Just looking for more material. Thanks.
There is a Pathfinder Society book on the roster for later this year :) I'm guessing we'll learn more there as well. Also, several of the Modules have been set in Absalom, so they would have additional info for the inquiring mind.
Aren't the "Guides" oriented more to players than GMs? That maybe why it disappoints those of us expecting more crunch.
Crunch is for players as much as it is for GMs.
But Chronicles isn't about crunch. And I frankly don't want them to be. The amount we are getting right now is enough for me - just the occasional feat and items and so on, there to support the setting information. I don't need more generic books of feats and classes with some alibi fluff grafted on top of them.
I have plenty. And if I hunger for more of those, I'll get PF RPG line books, which will be all crunch.
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Well, I don't know about you guys, but when I read a book about Absalom, I'm looking for the one thing that really sets it apart from other cities: The Starstone Cathedral and the Test of the Starstone.
I understand it's different for each individual and DMs are supposed to make it up, but can I get some reasonable guidelines to follow from? Maybe some info on the tests the 4 gods had to take, some more juicy bits about it, etc? The whole "getting across the pit" thing to start with was cool, but then there was no other information.
Are you guys planning on fleshing out the cathedral a little bit more?
Or maybe you can give out some ideas for what could go on in there?
Are you guys planning on fleshing out the cathedral a little bit more?
That's something we'd like to address eventually. It certainly would make a cool high-level AP at some point in the future. Unfortunately, I think we'd have a bloody battle between Wes, James, and Erik about who gets to write the whole thing....
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Creative Director
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What about an adventure that featured the Starstone Cathedral, but not the actual Quest for the Starstone? Defending the Cathedral from attack or trying to stop some evil being from breaking in to pass the test and become an evil god?
Very unlikely. If we do something with the Starstone Cathedral, it'll HAVE to be something to do with the starstone, I suspect. That's like setting an adventure in Dinosaur Valley and not having dinosaurs in the adventure... if we set an adventure in a spot that is infamous or well-known for a specific feature, that feature needs to be a part of the adventure, especially the first time that site shows up.
That's my take, at least.
That's cool. I don't see any burning need for a detailed Starstone Cathedral or the Quest. Given the splits in what people want to see as 'epic' it will be well worth the wait... if it is ever done.
There is so much in Absalom to do before that, at the very least there are ancillary things like the temple of the failed attempts at godhood that I'd like to see more about. ;-). Deities that died before they came to be are always fun to mess around with IMO.
Jared Ouimette, if your looking for suggestions on how to handle it on your own in your game I'd look to both the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods. Personally, unless I was doing it as part of a godhood story for my players, I'd set every challenge as an Epic (APL +3 or more). What I'm saying there is if my players wanted to just go off and attempt the test their characters would have to be both skilled and lucky.
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I have two major complaints about Absalom. First, the book should have been about four times its actual size! I could easily have used a book of 256 pages for Absalom! :)
And most importantly... NO FOLD OUT MAP! You have GOT to be kidding! Saying that Korvosa is going to be the flagship city of Pathfinder is like saying Peoria is the flagship city of the US! It has an AP set in it, that is about it. Don't get me wrong, it's a very cool town, but no where as important as Absalom is to the game.
NO MAP! That was a stab in the back!
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I must say Absalom definitely needs a poster map, much more so than Sandpoint did. As for the scale of it, the stuff in Varisia was built by giants, Absalom is most definitely a human city for humans. So it makes sense as is.
I'd love to see an AP centered around Absalom and the Isle of Kortos (with poster maps for both).
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Creative Director
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Okay, so no Starstone Cathedral for a long, long time. Thanks for the reply, but could you give me just a brief synopsis of what you would say would be involved in a generic, non-character specific test?
Nope. We want to do the Starstone stuff right, and that means that we don't want to haphazardly start coming up with stuff about it. For now, official Starstone Cathedral info is just going to have to remain on the hush-hush.
As for poster maps... I'd love to eventually get one done, but they're expensive and difficult to produce. I'd rather get it done right than get it done sloppy; the map we have in the book right now works fine for a full page map, but since the city itself covers about 25 times the ground as Korvosa... and since the current super-detailed map of Korvosa's on a four panel map... let's just say that we've got enough other plates spinning this year with bestiaries and RPGs that a big map of Absalom is going to have to wait for a while. We can't really afford to put poster maps into the 64 page Chronicles books, alas... but we'll be experimenting with other methods of delivering poster maps later this year with the Cities of Golarion map folio.
We're very unlikely to set an AP there too, since it's ground zero for the Pathfinder Society, and I'd rather not mix the Pathfinder Society stuff with Adventure Path stuff for various reasons.
As for poster maps... I'd love to eventually get one done, but they're expensive and difficult to produce.
At any rate, even if you do put a poster map in a book, please put in a normal-sized map as well, so that people don't give me dirty looks when I'm unfolding a big fantasy map on the subway!
As for poster maps... I'd love to eventually get one done, but they're expensive and difficult to produce.At any rate, even if you do put a poster map in a book, please put in a normal-sized map as well, so that people don't give me dirty looks when I'm unfolding a big fantasy map on the subway!
The trick is to first unfold the "Humiliation Torture Porn Weekly", so they won't have any dirty looks left for the fantasy maps, and anyway are way too scared of you to dare offending you by looking.
I, too, am disappointed in the Absalom book, but not necessarily for the same reasons as the OP.
It's the lack of a poster map that was a near-killing blow. Really? No poster map for the largest city in the Inner Sea? Wow. What a mistake.
let's just say that we've got enough other plates spinning this year with bestiaries and RPGs that a big map of Absalom is going to have to wait for a while. We can't really afford to put poster maps into the 64 page Chronicles books, alas... but we'll be experimenting with other methods of delivering poster maps later this year with the Cities of Golarion map folio.
Interesting. So... yes to an Absalom poster map in this folio, or no? [Edit: I see the product info now. That would be a no. BOOOO!] This might be a reasonable (though still very disappointing) compromise if you don't want to put the poster map in the 64-page Chronicles book (where it belongs, I'm afraid).
I'll be interested in details when they come out. Poster city maps are always important - as I'm sure you figured out from the original 3 Dungeon mag APs. Don't regress, Paizo.
Don't regress, Paizo.
Have you even read this thread before posting? I think the explanations given for the lack of poster map of Absalom are quite convincing. But if you want fast rather than proper, I can get my hand on a sheet of plotter paper (something like 4 feet wide and as long as you want it) and some crayons, I can make you a fast Absalom map.
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Don't regress, Paizo.Have you even read this thread before posting? I think the explanations given for the lack of poster map of Absalom are quite convincing. But if you want fast rather than proper, I can get my hand on a sheet of plotter paper (something like 4 feet wide and as long as you want it) and some crayons, I can make you a fast Absalom map.
Or, you could print the map posted in the Paizo Blog...
Or, you could print the map posted in the Paizo Blog...
Blowing up a tiny picture into a big map usually results in a blurry mess. For instance, the other day I was looking at the Golarion map that's in the Pathfinder Wiki. Now, maybe it's just me, but that writing is too small for me to read. But blowing up the picture doesn't really help because then it's too blurry to read.
Blowing up a tiny picture into a big map usually results in a blurry mess.
Sure, but it's better than what I could do with crayons.
And that's really the point: They could have done a map, but it would have looked like crap. So they didn't. Better proper than soon.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Or, you could print the map posted in the Paizo Blog...Blowing up a tiny picture into a big map usually results in a blurry mess. For instance, the other day I was looking at the Golarion map that's in the Pathfinder Wiki. Now, maybe it's just me, but that writing is too small for me to read. But blowing up the picture doesn't really help because then it's too blurry to read.
I am planning to redo that image map using one of the higher resolution maps Paizo released under their Community Use Policy. The current image was pretty high-res, but when scaled down to fit within the page layout, it lost some detail. It's a pretty busy map with all the geographical features, settlements, and nations all listed. I'd prefer a political map with just coastlines and national/regional borders, but for the time being this is what we have to work with. If anyone is good with graphic design, however, I'd love to chat with you about making something like this for the wiki. I think it'd help with the issue hogarth brings up.
Very unlikely. If we do something with the Starstone Cathedral, it'll HAVE to be something to do with the starstone, I suspect. That's like setting an adventure in Dinosaur Valley and not having dinosaurs in the adventure... if we set an adventure in a spot that is infamous or well-known for a specific feature, that feature needs to be a part of the adventure, especially the first time that site shows up.That's my take, at least.
Well, to be fair, in Dinosaur Valley, the dinosaurs roam freely in the wild. In the Cathedral, the Starstone is locked in a vault, behind an inpenetrable door, warded by soul searing traps, guarded by an array of elite golems and outsiders, etc, etc, rinse, lather, repeat as long as necessary. It's not like you can have a random encounter with the Starstone. In dinosaur valley, eventually, something's going to try and eat you or step on you.
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OK - let's see what I still need for my homemade Absalom boxed set (of unnecessary opulence).
Main City Book - Guide to Absalom - Check
Module - Gallery of Evil or Hangman's Noose - Check (Thanks Lord Gadigan!)
Oversized Map - Crayon Version by KayYoss - pending (I wonder if there will there be a pdf version?)
Important NPC Cards - Hmm, suppose I could print pictures from pdf and glue to cardboard... - pending
Handouts - {{looks around desperately, spots Mardi Gras beads}} authentic phony necklaces from one of the markets - Check
Miniatures - {{looks around again, spots Monty Python plush rabbit}}umm, a Vorpal Starstone Guardian miniature! - Check
Box with cool art - {{finds old shipping box}} - will need to glue more art to box - I wonder if KayYoss does crayon fantasy art as well?
The above an attempt at humor. Attempting to view the above as anything other than humor is not recommended, as this can lead to a sudden increase in blood pressure, dizziness, shouting, crying, and flame wars. In some rare cases, loose stool has been reported, but this is rarely fatal. Do not taunt happy fun ball.
Unfortunately, I think we'd have a bloody battle between Wes, James, and Erik about who gets to write the whole thing....
Double take...I thought you said there'd be a bloody battle between Wee Jas and Erik...which would have been a lot cooler.
At any rate, I agree that he Absalom book could have been better, though I didn't dislike it. As others have said, a larger book with a poster map would have been more appropriate, but oh well.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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As for poster maps... I'd love to eventually get one done, but they're expensive and difficult to produce.At any rate, even if you do put a poster map in a book, please put in a normal-sized map as well, so that people don't give me dirty looks when I'm unfolding a big fantasy map on the subway!
Hehehe. Imagine someone looking over your shoulder and trying to politely offer you directions and seeing that map!
Oversized Map - Crayon Version by KayYoss - pending (I wonder if there will there be a pdf version?)
Can you tell me where I'll find a big, blank PDF to draw on? I though I had one, but when I finished painting, all the pictures on my computer looked like my painting for some reason. It only went away when I got a new screen. Weird.
Box with cool art - {{finds old shipping box}} - will need to glue more art to box - I wonder if KayYoss does crayon fantasy art as well?
Oh yes. But it's all very surreal, and not suitable for children under 23 or over 37. High rates of surreal nudity, explicit and implicit sexual acts, and violence.
By the way, what kind of name is "sow here am I now"? Who's the sow you're talking to?
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Can you tell me where I'll find a big, blank PDF to draw on? I though I had one, but when I finished painting, all the pictures on my computer looked like my painting for some reason. It only went away when I got a new screen. Weird.
Oversized Map - Crayon Version by KayYoss - pending (I wonder if there will there be a pdf version?)
You can find crayon pdf's at any computer store. They are usually sold under the name "Glare Filters".
Oh yes. But it's all very surreal, and not suitable for children under 23 or over 37. High rates of surreal nudity, explicit and implicit sexual acts, and violence.
Box with cool art - {{finds old shipping box}} - will need to glue more art to box - I wonder if KayYoss does crayon fantasy art as well?
Awesome, I'm still in the age range! Could I request real nudity and surreal violence?
By the way, what kind of name is "sow here am I now"? Who's the sow you're talking to?
Umm, you've got the W on the wrong word. It's "so where am I now?" Not the first time a W hasn't been where it was needed - see George W during late August 2005. (Apologies if you are a fan)
Could I request real nudity and surreal violence?
Wow, do you overestimate my abilities in real arts! :D
By the way, what kind of name is "sow here am I now"? Who's the sow you're talking to?
Umm, you've got the W on the wrong word.
I like my interpretation better. It's that in-your-face attitude I so like.
Plus, it rhymes. :P
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Could I request real nudity and surreal violence?Wow, do you overestimate my abilities in real arts! :D
By the way, what kind of name is "sow here am I now"? Who's the sow you're talking to?
Umm, you've got the W on the wrong word.
I like my interpretation better. It's that in-your-face attitude I so like.
Plus, it rhymes. :P
elves, sows... I can see the confusion...
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I guess the biggest disappointment now is knowing they don't wanna do much with Absalom because Society is set there. OK, I play Society too, but would REALLY like a BIG ASS map. I mean I udderstand (that's for KaeYoss and his sow obsession) and all about map quality, but it seems to me that map that was included was a nice quality map. Unless it was not created in a size suitable for enlargement it would have been wonderful as a fold out map. I will say this is one where I think Paizo failed to see the big picture and prepare. I expect that had a big map been included, Absalom would have quickly become the default homebrew city of choice. Korvosa is nice, but a flagship city, it is not.