I Ran this scenario yesterday. Here's what I noticed during play:
Act 4
Map on page 6
Boring encounters
Stat block nitpicking time
tier 1-2 Al Sarif has 2 skill points to spend. These should probably go to intimidate, that has only 3 ranks, while all the other skills have 5.
tier 1-2 Al-Sarif's Enforcers: Climb & jump should be +6 each.
tier 3-4 Al-Sarif's Enforcers:
initiative should be +2 instead of +3.
Open lock should be +7.
One unspent skill point.
Al-Sarif is worse at listen at Tier 6-7 than other Tiers. He also does not appear to have any ranks in listen, but still gets a mysterious +4 bonus from somewhere to his listen. He also hasn't spent all his skill points. 9 to appraise, 9 to bluff, 6 to climb, 5 to diplomacy, 6 to escape artist, 7 to gather information, 5 to forgery, 7 to intimidate, 9 to knowledge:local, 6 to move silently, 6 to search, 9 to sense motive, 6 to spot. This leaves 9 unspent skill points out of 99.
tier 1-2 Buri Buri-Ban:
Monk HD is d8.
Feats should list Improved Unarmed Strike.
4 skill points unspent.
Jump wonky, either has -2 ranks in it or speed hasn't been accounted for. Should be +8.
tier 6-7 Buri Buri-Ban:
AC should be 1 higher for monk AC bonus.
Monk HD is d8.
Feats should list Improved Unarmed Strike.
Skills: Jump has either -1 ranks in it, or increased speed hasn't been noted. If speed bonus to jump hasn't been included, the bonus should be +11.
11 Skill points unspent.
tier 1-2 Marafi's Bodyguard:
4 skill points too much. Reducing spot & listen to +1 each fixes this nicely.
Statues' effects not defined properly
That's all the bad things I have on my mind on this scenario. Let's move on to the good things.
Nonlinear encounters
Interesting faction missions
Finally, I'd like to say my players enjoyed a chase scene I added in the beginning, where they chased after Chaim through the bathhouse. I called for a couple rolls to not slip on a wet floor or to jump over a pool in order to catch up to him. They never actually had the chance to catch up to him. He always managed to run around the corner, so that characters couldn't actually catch him or use up any resources while chasing him. After a couple of rolls Chaim finally got to Grandmaster Torch, characters right behind him and the story progressed as normal.
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I was playing the only Taldan of the team.
It felt promising at first. An interactive chase was a good way to start.
We chose to go after Viraj Arpani. He was cooperative, at least it seemed so, then suddenly CENTIPEDES. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time something unexplainable happened.
There's a point to the encounter though. Our sorcerer cast Charm Person on Arpani, and according to Lehmuska almost 'broke' the scenario. I suspect it would have meant skipping the combat encounter. He got paranoid about the statue though when we asked about it.
Second encounter, well ... the Qadiran mission was very odd. A wizard goes and stabs some rather unknown man in the knee with a dagger and fails? I almost killed him by then grappling him, attempting to stop his nonsense. The darned rogue morons then started stabbing only him (because he was the only target besides me), and when it was his turn, he was at -9.
Miraculously, he rolled a 04 on his stabilization roll (10% chance). What are the odds! Anyways, violence ensued and we killed them all (except Nasir Tandir, of course).
Third encounter started to be a tad annoying now. A monk turning invisible the second he sees us? Sure, we had made a ruckus somewhere in the area, but must they *ALL* run away? This encounter was just frustrating and it showed.
The last one was likely as frustrated. "Let's take all your equipment... AND THEN AN INEVITABLE COMBAT!" Our sorcerer once again tried to ask about the statue in a civil way, yet the scenario doesn't really give chance for that. Good thing we had a 5th level ranger with a riding dog, although the rolls were bad.
Anyway, we got the blasted statues. My taldan Bard/ranger (Alestair Bleakrock) vowed never to set foot again to Qadira. Even the coffee was spoiled with some ludicrous spices! Yugh!
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The Qadira faction mission was weird. "Okay, we need you to poison this guy with SCORPION VENOM so he dies in an extremely painful way!" Very good, except that it happens within a regular combat encounter, so what it really means is "scratch that guy with an envenomed weapon so the last rounds of his life will be really, really painful." (in my case it was more like that last turn before he died)
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It could have just been how this played out, but I had some problems with this adventure. It wasn't so much that there was a problem with running it as it was written, as it was pretty clear. Its that parts of it were repetitive and just didn't gel, and at least one faction goal was a big problem, at least when I ran this.
The fact that there are multiple people that see the PCs coming after them and then decide to duck into the nearest handy building becomes tiresome. While the encounters played out differently once the given character was inside the specific building, the fact the setup is so similar is jarring.
The fact that Viraj didn't have a stat block kind of bothered me, but it also was troublesome that Viraj and Buri-Ban both shared the same tactic, i.e. turn invisible. Buri-Ban's encounter seemed to do more with the invisibility, so I improvised that Viraj actually blew himself up when he cast his spell to summon the centipedes, because I didn't want to say "oh yeah, this one went invisible too." The scenario says that his bells scattering, meaning some should still be around for the Cheliax goal, and I just made it so that when the PCs searched the "remains," they found the box he left behind.
The Tier 1-2 Encounters were really easy for my average 2nd level party. In fact, most of the encounters didn't even go through all six players before they were over.
I was really looking forward to Grandmaster Torch showing up again, as I really liked the character in Silent Tide, but the fact that he is encountered abroad is a bit strange, as I think meeting him in his element in his own environs does a lot to reinforce his image, and also, with only one person at the table having encountered him before, most of the table thought he was just another crime lord that they were suppose to take down eventually, since it didn't seem to present him as holding all of the cards the way that Silent Tide did.
Finally, the Taldor goal caused a lot of problems.
One problem I had with the goal was a thematic problem. While the PFS guide stresses that the PCs are Pathfinders that also do side jobs for their factions, this goal sets up a party of Pathfinders as Osirion agents, which could potentially cast the whole society in a bad light, and if successful, should probably ban the whole party from being able to enter Qadira again if they are recognized. Its a bit of a disconnect.
I know some people like the more open ended goal, especially if it makes the PCs get creative, but the goal doesn't even hit at the one thing spelled out in the scenario that should trigger the goal's completion. Not to mention that the other faction goals are all pretty clear cut, while the Taldor goal is wide open, according to the handout.
I really think that the handout should point toward the spice refinery, and part if it is illustrated by the session I ran of this. The Taldan player is relatively new to PFS play, and read it to cause mayhem and destruction, and took this to mean that he should charge the people tailing the PCs and kill them in the streets, break up trade stalls, cause riots, and that is what was expected.
It really caused some problems, because either the authorities in the city have to ignore the PCs, or you have have the authorities show up and hope the PCs find some way to get out of the situation. Also, since the Taldan PC, after reading his faction goal, thinks he should be acting this way, it also kind of sent the signal to some of the other newer players that killing people in the street and threatening people left and right was par for the course for PFS play.
Eventually I had to point out the discussion about the Slave Pits adventure, wherein it was said that if a Pathfinder agent gets put in prison for causing major havoc and committing a major crime is the same as death and will result in a character being retired from play.
The Taldan player was going to torch the refinery, but I gave him the point even though he did not, because he was going to, because I needed to calm down the table from what turned into kind of a rampage through the streets. I don't really blame the players for this, as the faction goal seems to imply that it should be possible to "deal as much death and destruction neccessary."
Either the GM has to pretend that the faction goal and the Taldan acting on it have no effect on the adventure, meaning that the Taldan kind of gets a pass actions that other PCs can't take, or he is being encouraged to do things that make life harder in a real way, not an abstract long term plan way, for his fellow Pathfinders, as well as framing his fellow PCs for a crime!
If the faction goal had just been to quietly damage the spice production by burning down the warehouse and leaving a note implicating Osirion, I wouldn't have a big problem with it, although there is still a bit of a problem with that. The building blows up when set on fire, meaning that there isn't much time for people to get out. Meaning that the Taldan is probably blowing up innocent workers in the refinery. That strikes me as an evil act, not just a non lawful one, which rubs me the wrong was as well.
Perhaps others have different experiences, but this is how it played out for us, and it took a bit of corrective action to get the adventure back on track after the Taldan player (whom I don't blame, since he was fairly new and doing exactly what the faction goal said to do) tried to accomplish his goal.
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Now that you talk about it, you are right about the obscurity of the Taldor's faction quest.
A paladin, for instance, could not complete this mission. It's against almost every article of the code of conduct. Then again it shouldn't be a surprise a paladin couldn't complete all, if any.
As for the note, we all knew the allegiances of our characters. In-game too. The drug-dealing gnome illusionist was an apparent Qadiran, so I thought "couldn't I give this document to him as well?". I just ended up dropping it into the "Qadiran FBI HQ" mailbox.
I also know from experience I need not to start such a spectacle myself. The time will come and the scenario will have a neon sign pointing at what I must do. Besides this quest is easy to do after the statue retrieving mission.
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I found something contradictory.
The statues state what happens when they activate. Furthermore, they have this line in their description:
"If held or in the naked presence of an arcane caster while he casts a spell, the statues absorb that spell (effectively countering it) and activate. So long as the statue is inside something at least as thick as a cloth bag, it cannot be activated."
And then what about Viraj Arpani?
"Under his arm he casually carries an item wrapped in shipping linens but by its shape it is almost surely a statue."
Some would deduct the statue is wholly covered with cloth, thus shouldn't activate. This is probably the thing I find most contradicting about the scenario.
"His eyes widen as his body resolidifies and the statue bursts out of its wrappings, seemingly absorbing the arcane energy from Viraj's failed spell. Linen, strings, and little bells skitter across the pavingstones. On the ground now, the statue continues to grow, taking on the form of writhing, giant centipedes."
Wait, the statue becomes a centipede? Does it revert to its original form after being 'destroyed' then? Besides the activation describes it just summoning three centipedes, not becoming one (although it would fit the description of the statue itself).
Also having the Iron Eagle possibly summon 16 rat swarms is a bit harsh on Tier 1-2 especially. It practically means a huge load of chaos and overall ruckus, possibly forcing the pathfinders to escape the city abruptly, abandoning their mission altogether.
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A paladin, for instance, could not complete this mission. It's against almost every article of the code of conduct. Then again it shouldn't be a surprise a paladin couldn't complete all, if any.
I also know from experience I need not to start such a spectacle myself. The time will come and the scenario will have a neon sign pointing at what I must do. Besides this quest is easy to do after the statue retrieving mission.
Very true. This time around the faction missions required:
* Stealing a Vudran wizard's robe
* Assasination using a method described as painful
* Vandalism/terrorism (the scenario strongly suggests grand arson)
Any one of these would be nigh impossible for a Lawful Good character to accomplish and completely impossible for a Paladin.
I have to say I agree with Deussu about the neon arrows pointing at the McGuffin of said quest. The signs ("warning - very flammable") clearly indicate a writer's intent "This place will burn!"
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I fully expect that there will be faction goals that paladins will have a hard time with. They aren't just Lawful good, they also cannot work with evil beings and can't explicitly lie. Any intrigue based goal becomes a problem for them, and its a unique issue for paladins, that paladin players should know going in.
My problem is that, especially when you take the Qadiran and Taldan goals at face value, its almost to the point to where you couldn't have any good characters complete the faction goal, which strikes me as a bit more restrictive.
Plus, I really think the Taldan goal bugs me most because it violates the Pathfinder Society tenants by very clearly putting Taldor above the society, making the society look bad, and framing your fellow PCs for a crime even if there isn't suppose to be a consequence listed for framing them. It feels like you are actively damaging the Society's reputation and acting against your fellow PCs, which doesn't seem to "Cooperate" very well.
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From my characters perspective things were definitely more chaotic than he wanted (and at times more towards the evil spectrum than even a Chelaxian was comfortable with in public).
The open-endedness of the Taldan goal was causing him to behave quite unlawfully and in my character's opinion "off-mission". After having seen him cause havoc in the streets, when we got to the refinery my character cautioned him that we were _not_ going to burn the place to the ground, as we were not being paid to be arsonists.
I all the missions that I've been on, I haven't had any faction goals that the Chelaxian felt were contradictory to his nature (well, "Slave Pits" was close, but he justified that by believing that the "freed" slaves weren't really freed, just spirited out to be slaves where it wouldn't affect the market). I'd have trouble as a Lawful Neutral druid with the Taldan goal.
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I fully expect that there will be faction goals that paladins will have a hard time with. They aren't just Lawful good, they also cannot work with evil beings and can't explicitly lie. Any intrigue based goal becomes a problem for them, and its a unique issue for paladins, that paladin players should know going in.
The problem with this is that it's quite unfair to Paladin players and furthermore, from an in-game point of view, it leads to situations where Paladins won't be able to rack up Prestige Points for their faction, meaning that a Paladin character will actually be a liability and not an asset to their faction. Not even Andoran, the supposedly LG nation, seems to require its agents to perform acts that undermine local law, honesty and generally being a good sport.
Based on the scenarios I've read the only faction that comes clean is Osirion. They even seem to go out of their way to provide missions that are fully in line with a Paladin's code. What could be more lawful than returning ancient religious relics to their rightful owners?
If anyone creates or finds a good virtual tabletop battlemap for the Spice Refinery, please post a link to it! I'll do the same. This fight looks like it could be one of the more dynamic ones if done well...
I'm a little disappointed there wasn't a map for that in the pdf, frankly.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I ran this scenario today for a PFS group at the local game store: 3rd level cleric, 2nd level monk, 2nd level cleric, 1st level sorcerer, 1st level rogue, 1st level druid. Tier 1-2.
1) In my opening explanation, I had Yasmin explain that there had been five statues, that the possessor of one of them had already died in an explosion of scarab swarms, and that word-on-the-street was that someone very powerful and deadly as hunting the current owners. That way, I gave each of the NPCs a strong motivation for panicking when the party arrives.
2) The PCs did not feel comfortable making a deal with Grandfather Torch on behalf of the entire Pathfinder Society, so the deal in Act I fell through. But they did decide to search Chaim's personal effects and bathhouse locker, where they found the names of the buyers, and we continued on.
3) They went for Viraj Arpani first, and almost died. From there on, they insisted that non-spell-casters needed to carry the statues: that would be the monk and the rogue.
4) A map of the refinery would indeed have been much more useful than a map of the city.
5) One of the clerics made a truly spectacular Diplomacy roll (DC 30!) and leveled with Saldin Marafi, explaining that the statue was terribly dangerous. The spice merchant sold it to the PC's and volunteered to explain Grandmaster Torch's involvement in the process.
6) No Taldans in my group, thank the stars.
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1) In my opening explanation, I had Yasmin explain that there had been five statues, that the possessor of one of them had already died in an explosion of scarab swarms, and that word-on-the-street was that someone very powerful and deadly as hunting the current owners. That way, I gave each of the NPCs a strong motivation for panicking when the party arrives.
This still raises a problem. If they learn carrying the statue can lead to their ultimate demise, why do they insist on carrying them? The merchants could easily store it in some place, and yet still fear the PCs (obvious pathfinders, that is) due to rumors.
2) The PCs did not feel comfortable making a deal with Grandfather Torch on behalf of the entire Pathfinder Society, so the deal in Act I fell through. But they did decide to search Chaim's personal effects and bathhouse locker, where they found the names of the buyers, and we continued on.
I too find it odd they are practically forced into owing a favor. Then again if Chaim has the list of the buyers already at hand it makes GM Torch redundant. Would Chaim even hold any evidence of selling the statues if one of those statues caused a death?
4) A map of the refinery would indeed have been much more useful than a map of the city.
I'm planning on drawing a new one, which includes only one exit, and a staircase to the roof. Buri Buri-Ban will run the stairs though the PCs have a chance at shooting arrows/bolts at him or climbing the spice vats and pipes and whatnot. Furthermore, I'd make Buri Buri-Ban turn invisible *after* he gets to the roof.
5) One of the clerics made a truly spectacular Diplomacy roll (DC 30!) and leveled with Saldin Marafi, explaining that the statue was terribly dangerous. The spice merchant sold it to the PC's and volunteered to explain Grandmaster Torch's involvement in the process.
Now that I read the backstory, it really strikes to me as strange. The buyers would blame the Society for robbing the statues? So, they don't know they are illegal? They willingly admit they both illegal goods?!
Also I have a bad feeling the favor will result in peeing on the PC's feet. I hope Paizo makes sure playing a particular scenario (Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch) doesn't penaltize the player for playing it. This was done in Living Greyhawk's COR6-17 Something of Value which resulted in abysmal reviews.
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I’ll be running this one for the third time on Thursday and I wanted to speak up and concur with what other GMs have stated here. The combats, with the exception of the centipedes, were way too easy. I am still trying to figure out what the rule is for equipping NPCs to match their CR. Looking at past scenarios there’s quite a spread of gear (GP value) among the NPC thugs of the same levels.
My Thursday table is heavy on muscle & stealth so they won’t be hindered by the anti-magic field in the secure market. I’m also wondering if making the PCs remove their armor would before entering would make a more balanced fight. It will take some ‘adjustment’ of the NPC thugs’ equipment to make them close to a threat to a high tier party.
The centipede combat is the most interesting encounter, but the market map is scaled poorly for combat with larger than large-sized creatures. Would you rule that the huge/gargantuan centipede(s) simply crush any stalls/carts in their path or that they would be squeezing between them? I just drew a map of the market scaled large enough to accommodate the high tier fight. Another question is what Arpani is doing the whole time the fight is going on? Without stats it is difficult to utilize him, but it is unsatisfying for him to simply stand there and wait until things are in control again. I used him as a target for the centipedes to spare a PC once or twice, but I’d rather have him try to escape or cast a helpful spell (if the party is faring poorly). Also, a silly thought occurred to me when I read the statue description sidebar. “If held or in the naked presence of an arcane caster while he casts a spell, the statues absorb that spell…” So Arpani is walking around naked? I thought he wore a robe covered in bells… I guess it depends on where your mind is when you read these things.
Lastly, I have a gripe about Grandmaster Torch. The party with which I played this scenario and the two that I GMed all wanted to take Torch apart for his complicity in the crime. Based on previous interactions in other scenarios, most players have a Pavlovian response when an NPC plays coy with them. They roll initiative. Only the GM informing them out-of-character that Torch was not statted restrained them from attempting a smackdown on the Grandmaster. I recall from Silent Tide that he’s a bardic sage 6/rogue 5—and he has no equipment on him in the bathhouse. His pair of guards do not appear to be undefeatable. A lucky glitterdust, a few non-lethal hits on Torch by a high tier melee fighter and suddenly he’s the one asking the PCs for a favor. The table that I’m judging Thursday is very aggressive and overconfident from previous push-over scenarios. I haven’t yet seen an “untiered” combat in the PFS but maybe there needs to be just to keep some PCs in their place.
I did enjoy the faction missions though. It was a nice change from simply making a skill check or picking up a random item. More of these types of missions are welcome.
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The Qadira faction mission was weird. "Okay, we need you to poison this guy with SCORPION VENOM so he dies in an extremely painful way!" Very good, except that it happens within a regular combat encounter, so what it really means is "scratch that guy with an envenomed weapon so the last rounds of his life will be really, really painful." (in my case it was more like that last turn before he died)
the only Qadiran in the group I ran it for was a Paladin. The faction mission as stated would have caused him to need to seek atonement. poison use is an evil act right? i thought faction missions weren't going to cause characters to have to choose 1 prestige point or an atonement.
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With the morally gray theme of PFS I think anyone who brings a paladin to the game is out of their mind unless they like to suffer. It would take a lot of creative roleplay to pull it off, kind of like the Chelaxian druid discussion we had last year. If someone runs a paladin in PFS I hope they come to the table knowing they face an uphill battle.
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Overall paladins have a tough road to hoe. I suggest being Andoran as their missions are least dishonorable from what I've seen.
In addition Osirion tends to be fairly paladin-friendly, consisting mostly of "this thing was a piece of our national treasure, go get it back".
Taldor and Qadira are a real pain for a paladin.
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In addition Osirion tends to be fairly paladin-friendly, consisting mostly of "this thing was a piece of our national treasure, go get it back".
Taldor and Qadira are a real pain for a paladin.
I'm gonna second this. If you want to play a cheliax Paladin, crumble up your mission notes and pray another chelaxian is there.
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Some would deduct the statue is wholly covered with cloth, thus shouldn't activate. This is probably the thing I find most contradicting about the scenario.
Linen is a sheer material when compared to the cloth sacks I've seen, which tended to be burlap and in one case denim.
'Wait, the statue becomes a centipede?'
I think it's more for flavor than anything else. The statue would return to normal after a sound thrashing.
'Also having the Iron Eagle possibly summon 16 rat swarms is a bit harsh on Tier 1-2 especially.'
I don't see anywhere that the swarms immediately attack the party. So I can see reason to say it just causes some ruckus and the city now has a few hundred more rats.
I'm gonna second this. If you want to play a cheliax Paladin, crumble up your mission notes and pray another chelaxian is there.In addition Osirion tends to be fairly paladin-friendly, consisting mostly of "this thing was a piece of our national treasure, go get it back".
Taldor and Qadira are a real pain for a paladin.
Honestly, I doubt that any Paladin would even work with Cheliax in the first place, simply because doing so would put them in violation of their alignment. Any Pally I see coming from Cheliax, I would think would likely be a rebel, possibly an Andoran faction member if they actually work with the Society.
Well this particular mission ended my wizard's promising career. A critical hit from a huge centipede for 33 damage against a level 3 wizard with 17 hp spells the end for him. I enjoyed Pathfinder Society for a while, but I do not think I can continue with something that leads to such an abrupt end when I do not think there was anything I could do to stop the outcome.
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Well this particular mission ended my wizard's promising career. A critical hit from a huge centipede for 33 damage against a level 3 wizard with 17 hp spells the end for him. I enjoyed Pathfinder Society for a while, but I do not think I can continue with something that leads to such an abrupt end when I do not think there was anything I could do to stop the outcome.
As the GM who rolled said critical hit, there WAS little you could have done. You could have fled the scene on the first round of combat leaving your companions to die. With three hugh centipedes spread out as they were you really didn't have any good choices. If you want to stay in PFS and keep the character your companions will help pay for your Raise Dead.
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I enjoyed Pathfinder Society for a while, but I do not think I can continue with something that leads to such an abrupt end when I do not think there was anything I could do to stop the outcome.
Your going to quit PFS play because you died.
Really?There will always be circumstances in games you can do nothing to stop the outcome. That's part of the game. That's the thrill of adventure, do or die!
As a third level, you had only nine runs under your belt. You haven't even experienced higher tier play yet. Do not be discouraged Guthwulf! Get back in the ring man!
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As a player, sometime writer, and DM, I am surprised there's not more of an objection about the blatantly impossible in-universe AMF in the secure market.
Why is this even permitted in the writing for any tier of play? AMF is supposed to last rounds, not permanently.
Fortunately, there's another 4 experience bearing encounters... but I'd like to know what people were THINKING about this.
Sometimes in Pathfinder it is necessary to stop scrutinizing the mechanics and engage in a role-playing game ;) With the 'no weapons' policy and the AMF, the Secure Market act forces the players to use non-combat skills to achieve their goal. I went from really hating this scenario to actually being fond of it. Really, the faction missions save the scenario from being another Skeleton Moon. There's a lot of good role-playing situations for the players to sink their teeth into, rather than the typical combat-combat-combat-combat-combat-conclusion that is so played out. Besides, this is a Season 0 scenario so there's not much that can be done about it now. The release schedule for PFS scenarios is at such a rate that the Paizo staff simply cannot move backwards.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As a player, sometime writer, and DM, I am surprised there's not more of an objection about the blatantly impossible in-universe AMF in the secure market. Why is this even permitted in the writing for any tier of play? AMF is supposed to last rounds, not permanently.
I have no problem with the game having (super)natural features that are beyond the abilities of mortal magic. Are you equally upset at the Mana Wastes?
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Now that faction missions are optional, this scenario isn't as terrible as it used to be. The original missions were terrible, especially for characters who try to avoid playing Murderhobo Society.
If you have a DM who can smooth over plot holes, come up with good maps on the fly, and will allow some fast talking to avoid (or at least flavor) the inevitable combats, then this scenario actually becomes fun.
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I've played and run this scenario now, and while it was pretty good that was mostly due to GM efforts. I really didn't know what to do with the Secure Market, as the scenario felt like it pulled a "System Error - Low Memory" on me by not even bothering to suggest what would happen if the party successfully bluffs him.
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So far, this adventure is the one PFS adventure I plan on never running again. While it had some interesting ideas, they were all fairly poorly implemented. But by far, the adventure goes so far into promoting the Murderhobo approach that it is nearly impossible for good characters to truly succeed at. I do not agree with the lessons the author appears to be trying to teach with this adventure and I have no intentions of ever teaching them again. Quite frankly, I wished they'd retire this one.
Ironically, when I started playing Destiny of the Sands, Part 1: A Bitter Bargain with my LG Osirion Cleric I practically slammed my head on the table when it started to sound like it was going to be The Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch, Part II. Fortunately the author understood everything that was wrong with the previous adventure and gave good characters several ways to complete the adventure without feeling like they needed to pay for an Atonement at the end of the adventure.
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So far, this adventure is the one PFS adventure I plan on never running again. While it had some interesting ideas, they were all fairly poorly implemented. But by far, the adventure goes so far into promoting the Murderhobo approach that it is nearly impossible for good characters to truly succeed at. I do not agree with the lessons the author appears to be trying to teach with this adventure and I have no intentions of ever teaching them again. Quite frankly, I wished they'd retire this one.
Agreed. While I had fun with the group I played this with back when I did (over a year ago), I have no desire to ever GM it, and I cringe whenever it comes up on our upcoming game day schedule. I really do wish it were retired. I can't imagine any lawful or good character getting through this without an alignment shift, let alone a paladin.
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I ran this many months ago and didn't see the same problems. I see no reason why someone of a lawful or good alignment would have any problems in completing this scenario.
I'll break it down.
All in all, not a single issue for a lawful good PC.
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Seriously? You think chasing a guy for refusing to give up his item is paladin worthy behavior? The PCs are basically mugging the guy to take his possession.
And the one in the anti-magic market also refuses to give up his item, so my group stole it when I played it. Again, blatant theft doesn't strike me as something any character who is either lawful or good could participate in.
Not all of them are problems, but those two certainly are. Maybe there are some mitigating factors in the adventure that I'm not remembering - it was over a year ago when I played it, and my group was all neutral enough to just go along with "Let's steal it", but I'm really glad I wasn't playing my paladin in that one. I probably would have just walked away from the table relatively early.
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You think chasing a guy for refusing to give up his item is paladin worthy behavior?
I don't see it as non-lawful or non-good. If you knew someone had an item but did not know it was dangerous enough to accidentally murder a dozen people, and as you approached them, they looked at you and started running - wouldn't running after them yelling "Stop! That item is dangerous! I just want to talk!" be both lawful and good?
And the one in the anti-magic market also refuses to give up his item
Nothing printed in the scenario suggests he refuses to give up the item if someone explains its dangers to him. The scenario states he is friendly unless lied to.
In general, I prefer when scenarios give the GM more freedom to deal with player actions and decisions. This one, by being light on details, gives GMs a lot of leeway in how to run this, and I'll say it again - I see no reason why a lawful good paladin couldn't make his or her way through the scenario swimmingly with little angst about his or her alignment.
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Regardless, the mod just made me feel 'dirty' after running it and I have no intentions of running it again. Run the Wardstone Patrol if you want to feel clean again after running this one.
Yeah, the main mission is "go find these people and take their stuff". Since some of them might be perfectly good people (while others are clearly criminals), it just feels like you're being sent out to be muggers right off the bat.
So maybe there are details I wasn't aware of, since I played it once over a year ago and never read/GMed the scenario. But the tone I got off it when I played it just struck me as downright bad for anyone lawful OR good.
There aren't many PFS scenarios I disliked enough that I'd refuse to GM them in the future, but this one tops that list. Come to think of it, I can only think of one other that I'd refuse to run again, despite having played and GMed it once, and I like that adventure overall, but think there are certain details that kinda ruin it.
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I played through this as a Taldan cavalier, and honestly completing that faction mission was THE highlight of my entire PFS experience to date. Part of what made it was the GM made an impromptu trial when we were caught later at the Secure Market. I could "honestly" claim that my attempts to Intimidate the workers out of the refinery was for their own good.. the place was about to burn down! Now with hindsight at this trial, you can see I was right to do so! It DID burn down!
I'm GMing it for the first time soon, and I'm guessing I just need to make up a price in the event the PCs sincerely inquire about buying the statue in the secure market. I'm not sure if I should do like Torch's offer to 'sell' the information and just price it ridiculously so they're forced to resort to hook or crook like the scenario seems to intend, or price it low enough that they could potentially buy it at cost of their own bottom line.
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So there's nothing in the adventure about securing the one from the Secure Market without theft or combat? I didn't think so, which again is why I said it feels like you're being sent out to rob people.
Maybe it originally did and got left out in editing or something. In essence, it goes like: "Unless they try to buy the statue, **** goes down." It then very awkwardly doesn't say what to do if they DO try to buy the statue rather than just swiping it. I guess, it's also plausible to say the NPC is all "Ho ho ho, I wouldn't sell that for all the gold on Golarion" or such.
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So there's nothing in the adventure about securing the one from the Secure Market without theft or combat? I didn't think so, which again is why I said it feels like you're being sent out to rob people.Maybe it originally did and got left out in editing or something. In essence, it goes like: "Unless they try to buy the statue, **** goes down." It then very awkwardly doesn't say what to do if they DO try to buy the statue rather than just swiping it. I guess, it's also plausible to say the NPC is all "Ho ho ho, I wouldn't sell that for all the gold on Golarion" or such.
It's been over a year since I played it, so I could be remembering wrong, but I could swear the guy refused to sell. Our group got stealthy and stole it, with part of the group providing a distraction at the time.
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Yeah, that's a very reasonable interpretation your GM made. Why it's at the stall in the market when he doesn't want to sell it is perhaps problematic, but perhaps he just recently acquired it and is temporarily taking advantage of the security of the market to store it until he can move it elsewhere (or sell it to a certain buyer he already has lined up)
While prepping it, I did get a giggle out of the scene where the toughs are pinching the warehouse keeper for protection money. The encounter specifically spells out to dock the gold award if they DO NOT hoboloot the guy's wares. It even goes on to say "that's the price of honesty".
So, yeah. It certainly IS a thuggish adventure. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.. if you're working for Torch, it's entirely appropriate ;)
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So, yeah. It certainly IS a thuggish adventure. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.. if you're working for Torch, it's entirely appropriate ;)
But that's my point. Some people play heroic characters in Society, and this is the one adventure that doesn't seem to accommodate that play style.
I have a mix of character types with different personalities. Most of my neutral characters wouldn't have a problem with this one (though one might), but some of my good ones would. Some of my good character (possibly even a paladin, ironically enough) might be ok in this, but I'd have to think about it and examine the details, within the context of each one's personality and the group I'm working with.
It's just questionable enough that I wouldn't want to put players in that position, if they're playing a more heroic character and don't realize what they're walking into.
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As a GM, you'd have a couple options here in the Secure Market.
As long as the PCs don't lie, they aren't attacked. They can make Diplomacy checks to shift the merchant's attitude to friendly. If he's made friendly and the players explain the danger, it's reasonably that he could even turn it over without the need for a purchase. The characters could even suggest they will inform the guards, and given the events that happened earlier in the Sedeq markets, this could apply enough pressure to let it go. A Bluff check could be used to exaggerate how dangerous the item is ("The countdown has passed, its going to turn into scorpions the moment you leave the field of this market..."), which would mean either he'd expose himself to great danger, or probably murder the first person who purchases it and leaves the antimagic field with it.
Worst case, some of the gold found in the earlier act could be used. A party of six PCs at the 6-7 subtier will have a whopping 8000gp or so from the first fight with the gang, so setting a price below this would seem to be reasonable.
I believe as long as GMs are creative with the sandbox, this is a fun little sandbox for PCs of all classes and alignments... if you're on the fence staying away from this one, you might want to gamble and try it again and run it like a sandbox. You might be surprised at the mileage you get from it.
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I'm converting the chase in the refinery into a proper Chase.
My lineup for the obstacles:
Location #1:
Workers shouting about dangers: Intimidate DC:
Guards trying to stop you: Escape From Grapple CMD:
Location #2: (Buri Buri-Ban begins here, automatically moves to #3 on his 1st turn)
Chasing the disturbance in the clouds: Perception DC:
Following the footsteps: Survival DC:
Location #3:
Climb Ladder on side of vats: Climb DC:
Race up the Stairwell: Constitution DC:
Location #4:
Balance along the tops of the vats: Acrobatics DC:
Ride the overhead Crane: Intelligence DC:
Location #5:
Duck out the Ventilation duct: Escape Artist DC:
Run down the fire escape: Reflex Save DC:
FINISH LINE/Buri Buri-Ban escapes the Refinery
I'm wondering what I should set the DCs to. Maybe 14/16/18 for the three tiers, or is that too generously low?