It's not so much fear as it is recognizing that the architecture of a space helps define how that space will be used. Perhaps it might be more useful to think of a politics section as an attractive nuisance that we've decided we'd be better off without.
There is already an architecture in place, and there is already a Politics Section it is called Off Topic. The CEO of Paizo has even posted a sticky thread saying please play nice in the political threads, so they must exist.
Since, Political threads already exist, we are saying just give them their own area complete with Lisa’s sticky-thread-disclaimer. With Lisa’s sticky-thread you still do not have to worry about people getting angry anymore than you do right now! Same as it ever was.
With this simple change an overall improvement is implemented, because now the Off Topic area will be less cluttered, and the Political people will have an easier time identifying their favorite of-the-moment topics.
Win-win.
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Just a thought, I'm neutral on the issue, if you don't want a politics section why not a politics subsection in the Off-Topic forums so that people can view the section without seeing the political threads if that is what they want.
Or would you consider that the same as having a Politics section?
Graywulfe
Chief Technical Officer
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Just a thought, I'm neutral on the issue, if you don't want a politics section why not a politics subsection in the Off-Topic forums so that people can view the section without seeing the political threads if that is what they want.
Or would you consider that the same as having a Politics section?
Graywulfe
It's the same thing.
Putting up a section for people to specifically discuss politics is kind of like telling the internet "Paizo has a place for anyone to discuss politics," and that's not really what we have. We have a place for gamers to discuss stuff, which may *include* politics. It's a matter of focus, really, and we do *not* want a focus on politics here.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd like my own private section of the boards where I can crush dissenters with an iron fist and ban the riff-raff.It's called your profile. Hit "Edit My Profile" and crush away, Rainbowman.
It's not the same! I want a larger fiefdom! With surfs! And hookers. And blackjack.
You know what, forget the fiefdom and the surfs.
It's not the same! I want a larger fiefdom! With surfs! And hookers. And blackjack.
You know what, forget the fiefdom and the surfs.
You forgot to ask for a steady supply of blow. And a room just to hold the containers filled with the bitter tears of those whom you've emotionally devastated.
This is actually a good idea. Though the threadjacks have won this place over, so...
Smurf!
...we do *not* want a focus on politics here.
Why? What is it about your politics that you don't want us to know about, Technical Director? Or should I say, Komrade Technical Director? HUH!? HUH!?
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I'd like my own private section of the boards where I can crush dissenters with an iron fist and ban the riff-raff.It's called your profile. Hit "Edit My Profile" and crush away, Rainbowman.It's not the same! I want a larger fiefdom! With surfs! And hookers. And blackjack.
You know what, forget the fiefdom and the surfs.
Did you say you wanted smurfs?
Can we get a thread where we can be total douches and attack people based on race/religion/sex/sexual orientation/age and stupidity.
Time to bump this thread back up to the top. It'd be great if I had a nice section I could then hide away while all the trolls flamed themselves to death.
+1
But zombeh we've been asking for this forever. The OTD has been designated the place for troll threads. Heck, we even asked for a split where we had 'Serious' OTD (i.e: pointless flamewars) and 'Silly' OTD (the good stuff) and no dice.
Meh. I've been making my Will saves lately. Just don't read the tripe and keep a list of people whose posts are annoying and avoid them. Works wonders.
People get unreasonably angry no matter what. With a politics section the unreasonable anger is appropriately labeled and properly contained. And I for one think unreasonable anger should be appropriately labeled and properly contained.
I don't see why it is an invitation for non gamers to come here and talk about politics.... any more than Movies are an invitation for non-gamers to come here and talk movies. That's complete hogwashery. I usually agree with Vic and Gary, but on this one youse guys are on the dope or something.
This_hurts_no_one, to borrow Erik's favorite emphatic mode.
Frankly, debate on Paizo is pretty calm in comparison to the rest of Gore's internets, and bringing some of that Paizo calm to political discourse is a good thing, not a bad thing. Better for the world that a few geeks can model civil political discourse at small scale and hold heads high, than hide heads in the sand.
Can we get a thread where we can be total douches and attack people based on race/religion/sex/sexual orientation/age and stupidity.Don't forget grammar. That rogue/rouge controversy can get bloody sometimes.
If I can add to this, there's nothing I hate more than douchebags can't articulate their douchebaggery with correct grammar and spelling.
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But you all ready have an area to discuss Paizo relevent Politics...its over there in the Golarion Threads. Where you can discuss The Political future of the Setting.
I'm all for an uprising in Cheliax by the Serfs and slaves who commit mass suicide if their bid for a Peoples Republic falls through.
OTD stands for Overt Trollish Debates.
<scurries over to talk about the absurdity of not offering ice cream at planned parenthood clinics.>
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Director of Narrative
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While I still think a politics-specific section of the message boards would be a bad idea, but since this is a messageboard on a website for a roleplaying game, I do think all politics threads should be populated by "characters" and aliases. That way you can argue different points, seeing how the character you're playing might feel differently than you personally. Plus, roleplaying is real good at lessening that whole "this person is different from me" thing. If you break character too many times in a row, you're not allowed access to that subforum for 24 hours. Since it's all mostly fictional, people wouldn't get as upset. It'd keep things from getting too personal if everyone was a character. So yeah, political section; aliases only. ;)
While I still think a politics-specific section of the message boards would be a bad idea...
... because of your clear conservative bias.
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Politics forum bad..... it is simply an invitation to flame and since we play a make believe game us all talking about politics enhance all the make believe (read lies) our sides feed us...
Is it against the rules to post "blah blah your wrong. Blah blah" on every political thread I see? If not I suggest we all start doing that and then the political hacks will all stop posting here. I am a political hack by the way I just refuse to fudge myself here on my rpg forum.
Yeah, the only politics I want to see over here are Golarion politics. Otherwise, I invite people to go join political forums...cuz I hear there are places on the internet just for that. <gasp>
I'm a moderator on a political forum. Imagine every argument we've ever had about alignment, except we're talking about real life matters that affect us, and every time a post is deleted there is outrage over "free speech" and "censorship" and "discrimination" and no matter how clear the rules are or how blatantly they've been violated, anyone who gets punished accuses you of singling him out because of partisan bias.
Don't get me wrong, my participation and effort are highly rewarding or else I wouldn't have kept doing it for five years, but it isn't something I'd wish on people who are just trying to talk about games.
I'm a moderator on a political forum. Imagine every argument we've ever had about alignment, except we're talking about real life matters that affect us, and every time a post is deleted there is outrage over "free speech" and "censorship" and "discrimination" and no matter how clear the rules are or how blatantly they've been violated, anyone who gets punished accuses you of singling him out because of partisan bias.
Don't get me wrong, my participation and effort are highly rewarding or else I wouldn't have kept doing it for five years, but it isn't something I'd wish on people who are just trying to talk about games.
Viktyr, you are describing the Off Topic Discussion forum exactly. But, imagine such a forum that was originally the haven of gamers being silly being overrun with political/religious discussion to the point where it is making the original posters literally walk away from the website. I know I almost did. We are losing a long-term poster to disgust at this very moment.
When the trolls crap all over everything, all you are left with eventually is piles of troll crap.
I was gonna write something then I was, like... "crap... whatever".
Curious is there a reason one cannot hide the offtopic forum? I know that is what I do for all the sections I don't want to let myself drag myself into.....
You can hide it. The problem is, there are threads of value there. Thus, the discussion is about spinning the political/religio/RL crap into their own forum, thus allowing those of us that used to like the OTD in its pre-trollish configuration to close the new section and still have our threads.
The point is that lots of long time posters think of OT discussions as a playground for friendly, playful threads, but the whole section sometimes gets overrun by normally friendly folks posting vitriol on political topics.
For a while 4E debates poisoned it, then Paizo made a 4E section, and the situation improved.
So my theory is that you could do the same by giving political discussion their own home.
Curious is there a reason one cannot hide the offtopic forum? I know that is what I do for all the sections I don't want to let myself drag myself into.....You can hide it. The problem is, there are threads of value there. Thus, the discussion is about spinning the political/religio/RL crap into their own forum, thus allowing those of us that used to like the OTD in its pre-trollish configuration to close the new section and still have our threads.
Whoa. Ninja monkey.
Whoa. Ninja monkey.
KEEEEYAH!
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Senior Software Developer
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My theory is, people could just not be jerks. But maybe I'm naive. I know my personal patience for all the political discussions is wearing thin. If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My theory is, people could just not be jerks. But maybe I'm naive. I know my personal patience for all the political discussions is wearing thin. If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
This, this, a thousand times this. It's hard enough cleaning troll crap out of actual game-based discussions. I'd hate for any Paizo staff to be having to spend time moderating political discussions instead of churning out awesome product. Activity in the game forums is good because that means they're paying attention to their customer base (us) so they can better give us what we want. Nor would I want a vitriolic cesspool of a political thread ghetto to drive away traffic, i.e. more customers. More Paizo fans = more money to Paizo = more awesome content.
My theory is, people could just not be jerks. But maybe I'm naive. I know my personal patience for all the political discussions is wearing thin. If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
I appreciate your naivete, I really do. It just seems like there are people really committed to proving it wrong. I would be very happy with banning these divisive topics and keeping things focused on what Paizo is really about. Offering a ghetto as a solution was simply a damage-control strategy premised on the assumption that such discussions would never be banned.
Darth Sidious offers his opinion on the political threads.
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Darth Sidious offers his opinion on the political threads.
That's also his philosophy on dingleberries.
My theory is, people could just not be jerks. But maybe I'm naive. I know my personal patience for all the political discussions is wearing thin. If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
This idea has merit. I mostly avoid political topics so it wouldn't change my Paizoing much... although I did enjoy some of the posts about Ron Paul.
But it's such a big part of life. And it saddens me to think we are such turds that you'd have to do this to us.
Darth Sidious offers his opinion on the political threads.
My theory is, people could just not be jerks. But maybe I'm naive. I know my personal patience for all the political discussions is wearing thin. If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.This idea has merit. I mostly avoid political topics so it wouldn't change my Paizoing much... although I did enjoy some of the posts about Ron Paul.
But it's such a big part of life. And it saddens me to think we are such turds that you'd have to do this to us.
I'd like to believe people could not be jerks. But there seems a fundamental lack of respect for other people that the communications mode of Internet posting breeds. Thus proving John Gabriel's Greater Internet F%$!wad Theory (NSFW due to naughty words.)
I for one would vote for banning all political/religious discussions, if making a separate subforum is not an option. There is trollishness enough to experience discussing game theory.
I for one would vote for banning all political/religious discussions, if making a separate subforum is not an option. There is trollishness enough to experience discussing game theory.
I'm in favor of the ban on such discussion - no subforum.
That said, I'd like to see the ban be on discussion of the topics in the 20th and 21st century. I'd like to be able to have a historical discussion on earlier events, as there's a lot of parallels in gaming fiction and the worlds we all create/play in.
Cutting out the last 111 years should negate a fairly significant portion of the vitriol that comes up on a lot of the current stuff.
I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
I never thought I would say this, but I've come to agree. Until recently, I was sure that reason, education, and patience could eventually bridge any gap. I took accusations of naivety as pessimism; now I'm not so sure. That, coupled with some rather sporadic, careless, and visibly frustrated moderation over the last few months, the section is no longer a useful forum for religious or political discussion.
Ban 'em already.
If it comes down to it I'm more likely to advocate for banning them all rather than making a "here there be poison" ghetto, though.
In a previous life, I moderated a very big set of forums for work. We had a politics section. It was the biggest rat hole of disgusting material I'd ever come across. I swear every internet blowhard who came onto that site hit that section and made it worse. I spent a large majority of time in there, deleting, warning then banning users. Then banning their new accounts 30 minutes later. It was not pretty.
If I could've realistically gotten away with deleting that "here there be poison" ghetto, I would have.
Please go the route of warn/ban or ban. Do not make a big pit of poison here please.
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And if ever there was a reason to ban political threads, we just had it.
No...I have only ever advocated a conformity to the obligations of Law. Its when there is an incapacity for Moderators to enforce the same that is the problem. There will will always be people who advocate that which is the wrong point of view and that which is a Crime. Thats a Forum rules violation and it requires Ethically Strong Moderators capable of recognizing when a Point of view advocating a crime is against the rules, not jumping on you just because the rabid dog majority feel they have the right to cheer the death squads and your POV to the contrary is dissruptive to their 'majority rule'.
I actually remember a time when it was possible to have civil, respectful discussion of politics. That's about 20 years in the past though, and the way things are now I think that Gary's idea is about the only appropriate one left anymore. So sad.
Does anyone else find it mildly ironic we're talking about talking about politics?