Villain voting

[Mike Welham]

After going through the threads on the wondrous item submissions, a thought occurred: Will anyone's voting be influenced by how well (or poorly) they regard the wondrous item?

I am going to try to vote solely on the merits of the villain, but I can see a case for taking a holistic approach to voting ("the villain was OK, but I really, really liked the wondrous item, so I want this person to advance" or vice versa).

[Matthew Morris]

taig wrote:

After going through the threads on the wondrous item submissions, a thought occurred: Will anyone's voting be influenced by how well (or poorly) they regard the wondrous item?

I am going to try to vote solely on the merits of the villain, but I can see a case for taking a holistic approach to voting ("the villain was OK, but I really, really liked the wondrous item, so I want this person to advance" or vice versa).

Considering how few times my item appeared on the top 5 list, gods I hope not! ;-)

Seriously, assuming I can vote (never been on this side of the crosshairs) I'm staying away from the items for the most part, so I don't have preconceived notions. Though obviously I'll vote for my <redacted>.

[Vladislav Rashkovski]

Anything can influence the "villain" votes. I'm sure that the voters would read the entries of contestants they liked in the first round first. Maybe the message board behavior of contestants will also have an effect on the votes. The opinion of industry professionals will strongly influence votes. Many things will have an effect on the outcome of the second round.

[Winterwalker]

I certainly have a few favorites I want to see advance. So in some way I'd say it's influenced.

[Paul Worthen]

I'm having a hard time just remembering what person wrote each item, so I don't think it will influence my vote.

What I am worried about is the next few rounds. If someone doesn't like your villian description in round 2, they're probably not going to like it when you stat up the same villian in round 3, design his lair in round 4, or an adventure based around him in round 5. I'm making the assumption, here, that you're using the same villian throughout the process, but I think that's reasonable based on the way the way things are described on the RPG Superstar page. Anyway, a lot is riding on the villian descriptions being submitted today!

[Vladislav Rashkovski]

Paul Worthen wrote:

....

You make a very good point. I feel that these submissions are decisive for the outcome of the competition as well.

[Lanfranc]

Ideally, it shouldn't matter.

But realistically, it probably will.

[Zombieneighbours]

I wont be conciously taking it into account but i don't doubt that i will be influenced by the items as well as the villains.

[Maurice de Mare]

If any of you can 'grab' me with your villain then I'll vote for you.

If there is a tie, I will look at your item and decide who is more worthy of my vote.

And you are all absolutely correct to assume that this is when the competition truely starts. The judges think you all have that extra something, but now the community will decide if that is really true ;>

So my judging system:

1) does it 'grab' me?
2) can I use it?

2 times yes means 1 vote.

[Philip Snyder]

Paul Worthen wrote:

What I am worried about is the next few rounds. If someone doesn't like your villian description in round 2, they're probably not going to like it when you stat up the same villian in round 3, design his lair in round 4, or an adventure based around him in round 5. I'm making the assumption, here, that you're using the same villian throughout the process, but I think that's reasonable based on the way the way things are described on the RPG Superstar page. Anyway, a lot is riding on the villian descriptions being submitted today!

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains. I personally am planning to have to stat up one of the other winners' villain in round three. Granted, I've got the stats for mine set out, but I get the feeling that we're gonna have to work with some different stuff this year.

[Craig Johnston]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Considering how few times my item appeared on the top 5 list, gods I hope not! ;-)

Holy Good Gravy! I so agree with this sentiment!

[Paul Worthen]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains. I personally am planning to have to stat up one of the other winners' villain in round three.

It's possible. However, I think a lot of people are putting in homebrew stuff which they plan to expand upon in round 3.

[Philip Snyder]

Paul Worthen wrote:

It's possible. However, I think a lot of people are putting in homebrew stuff which they plan to expand upon in round 3.

And wouldn't that be a great exercise in stat building? Taking someone else's idea and creating a believable and accurate interpretation while keeping it balanced to what they started with? Sounds almost like something a Superstar would have to do... ;)

[Doyle Tavener]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

And wouldn't that be a great exercise in stat building? Taking someone else's idea and creating a believable and accurate interpretation while keeping it balanced to what they started with? Sounds almost like something a Superstar would have to do... ;)

I believe you may be right. :)

That being the case, those who make the cut probably won't get to choose which villain they stat up. :O

[Philip Snyder]

Doyle Tavener wrote:

I believe you may be right. :)

That being the case, those who make the cut probably won't get to choose which villain they stat up. :O

Indeed. Yay random number generating!

[Sue Flaherty]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

Doyle Tavener wrote:

I believe you may be right. :)

That being the case, those who make the cut probably won't get to choose which villain they stat up. :O

Indeed. Yay random number generating!

While this would be a lot of fun to do with friends, I hope they don't pull this on you for the contest. With only three days, and if folks are doing stuff that is "homebrew", I think that would be a bit harsh for the contestants, especially if any of the submissions are a bit on the weak side concept wise (Not saying they are! But I noticed that from my perusals of last year's entries, some were just weaker than others).

But a hearty good luck to all and can't wait for the voting to begin :)

[The_Minstrel_Wyrm]

Doyle Tavener wrote:

Golarion Goblin wrote:

And wouldn't that be a great exercise in stat building? Taking someone else's idea and creating a believable and accurate interpretation while keeping it balanced to what they started with? Sounds almost like something a Superstar would have to do... ;)

I believe you may be right. :)

That being the case, those who make the cut probably won't get to choose which villain they stat up. :O

Heh heh... this reminds me of something a friend of mine once said would be fun to do... the players all make up a character (whatever the level) but they are creating the character for someone else to play. Kinda like, "Okay here is a 4th level fighter and I hand it to the player on my right..."

This indeed would be an interesting twist for the Top 16 from the Villain Concept round. Hmmm.

[Vladislav Rashkovski]

While this idea seems plausible, it could lead to dissatisfaction. Imagine person B statting the villain of person A, and not doing a good job at it. If I was person A, I would be very uncomfortable with that; I would feel that *my* creation was not done justice and would want to re-stat the villain to present him according to my vision, etc.

It would be an awkward situation. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

[Paul Worthen]

Another thing they could do is give us all the same description and see what we all could do with it stat-wise.

I think the safe money is on statting up the guys we just wrote descriptions for.

[Eric Morton]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains.

Great minds must think alike, Goblin, because I've been suspecting something along those lines all along.

Though I hope the Top 8 get to design lairs for villains of their choice, and the Top 4 get to write adventures featuring lairs of their choice. Either that, or the winner gets write a second adventure module, this one featuring his own villain. I'm sure we all have really solid ideas of what final confrontations with our own villains should entail. (I know I do.)

As for the topic of this thread, (assuming finalists are even allowed to vote,) I'll be voting for villains based on their own merits. The only possible exception for me would be an otherwise good entry that made one or two silly mistakes. In that case, I'll go back and look at the contestant's previous work to make sure those silly mistakes are a one-time thing, not evidence of ongoing bad habits.

(Well... I also have to admit I'll vote once for myself if that's allowed. It would be disingenuous of me to claim otherwise.)

But for the most part, I'm not going to eliminate someone just because I didn't like their item (maybe they had a bad day, and are only going to get better from here on out). And I'm not going to advance someone just because they had a good item (maybe they just got lucky in Round 1). If I don't win this thing, I want to know that I lost to someone who was consistent, or consistently improving, not a one-hit wonder or a risky proposition.

[Eric Morton]

Paul Worthen wrote:

Another thing they could do is give us all the same description and see what we all could do with it stat-wise.

I sincerely hope they don't pick the villain with the most complicated stat block and make us all write that up.

But then again, what if one of the Top 16 submitted a flavorful but straightforward CR 1 villain and another submitted a complex, mutli-layered CR 20 villain. The finalist with the CR 20 villain is at a distinct disadvantage in Round 3 if everyone stats up their own villain.

Then again, we're all assuming that that the Top 16 will have to write stats for a villain who appeared in Round 2. Maybe there's an entirely unrelated villain sitting on someone's desk over at the Paizo office, and that's the villain we'll all have to stat up. And maybe we'll all have to create a new prestige class in which that villain has levels. Or something.

[Paul Worthen]

Epic Meepo wrote:

The finalist with the CR 20 villain is at a distinct disadvantage in Round 3 if everyone stats up their own villain.

Actually, they're at a huge advantage. There's a lot more you can get creative with at CR20 than CR1.

[Ryan Marsh]

Well I fully intend on reading each villian seperately. I remember the items I liked, but not the names of the creators of said items. So I suppose it will not influence me.

Also I know several people whom are good at making up imaginative villians but come up some lame ideas in other areas.

[Mark Thomas]

Paul Worthen wrote:

Epic Meepo wrote:

The finalist with the CR 20 villain is at a distinct disadvantage in Round 3 if everyone stats up their own villain.

Actually, they're at a huge advantage. There's a lot more you can get creative with at CR20 than CR1.

There's also a lot more places for the math to go wonky.

[roguerouge]

Last year, the judges talked about prior entries when they made their decisions, talking about potential and growth over the contest. Whether Paizoans choose to do the same is presumably up to them.

[roguerouge]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains. I personally am planning to have to stat up one of the other winners' villain in round three. Granted, I've got the stats for mine set out, but I get the feeling that we're gonna have to work with some different stuff this year.

Did you never learn the lesson about talking about what might go wrong in front of your DM? This is surely one of those times....

[Philip Snyder]

roguerouge wrote:

Golarion Goblin wrote:

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains. I personally am planning to have to stat up one of the other winners' villain in round three. Granted, I've got the stats for mine set out, but I get the feeling that we're gonna have to work with some different stuff this year.

Did you never learn the lesson about talking about what might go wrong in front of your DM? This is surely one of those times....

Heh, it's only a bad idea if you haven't planned for it...

[Count_Rugen]

My voting criteria will, from top to bottom, be:
1.) Is it creative and engaging? As someone else said, does it grab me?
2.) Is it creative and engaging? As someone else said, does it grab me?
3.) Is it creative and engaging? As someone else said, does it grab me?

... (repeat the above line for some time) ...

1597.) If there is a tie between multiple entries, I will use the contestants Wondrous Item as a tie-breaker.
1598.) Is the format/math correct?

[roguerouge]

Golarion Goblin wrote:

roguerouge wrote:

Golarion Goblin wrote:

You're assuming that we'll be called on to use our villains. I personally am planning to have to stat up one of the other winners' villain in round three. Granted, I've got the stats for mine set out, but I get the feeling that we're gonna have to work with some different stuff this year.

Did you never learn the lesson about talking about what might go wrong in front of your DM? This is surely one of those times....

Heh, it's only a bad idea if you haven't planned for it...

Ah, so you've been to the Rat Bastard PC School then. Good show...

[Carl Flaherty]

Epic Meepo wrote:

If I don't win this thing, I want to know that I lost to someone who was consistent, or consistently improving, not a one-hit wonder or a risky proposition.

Darn. There goes my shot to advance. :P

[cwslyclgh]

I plan on voting for each round in isolation, not paying attention to whether the person wrote something else I liked in a previous round... that's the plan at least, whether or not I can truley stay that objective is another matter.

[Jeffrey Scott Nuttall]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Great minds must think alike, Goblin, because I've been suspecting something along those lines all along.

Me too, actually... though I also considered the possibility Paul Worthen brought up about everyone being given the same villain to stat up. I don't think that's really going to be the case--mostly because the last contest generated some material that was later used (or at least referenced) in Pathfinder products, and sixteen copies of stats for the same villain wouldn't be particularly useful--but it's possible. I think the villain-shuffling scenario is more likely.

If they do pull a villain-swap, though, I had some of the same concerns that some of the other posters in this thread have already brought up... but maybe the Paizo Powers That Be have already anticipated those issues and have thought of ways to avoid them.

Or maybe we're overthinking this and all the Round 3 contestants are just going to be statting up their own villains after all...

[roguerouge]

I'm voting based on whether I like the applicant's avatar or not. The cut of their jib will be my tie-breaker.

[Neil Spicer]

roguerouge wrote:

I'm voting based on whether I like the applicant's avatar or not. The cut of their jib will be my tie-breaker.

Interesting.

...

So...ummm...just to change subjects for a moment...ummm...

...how do you feel about silver dragons? You know, just out of curiosity and all.

--Neil

[Matthew Morris]

NSpicer wrote:

roguerouge wrote:

I'm voting based on whether I like the applicant's avatar or not. The cut of their jib will be my tie-breaker.

Interesting.

...

So...

...how do you feel about silver dragons? You know, just for curiosity's sake.

--Neil

Feh, Silver dragons just want to grow up and be blue dragons. We all know that.

[Neil Spicer]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Feh, Silver dragons just want to grow up and be blue dragons. We all know that.

Spoken like an evil, undeserving wingless drake. ;-D

[Stefan Schulz]

I think we will likely get some "foreign" villain. I am not sure if it is another contestants or some predefined one.

Having to come up with a full statblock for a "gender race level(s)" line is probably pretty common when working in a shared universe where others have provided, say, a brief 500 word outline on an NPC you are told to use in your adventure. You may not like what you are handled too much, but its your job to adequately stat it up nevertheless.

[Matthew Morris]

NSpicer wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

Feh, Silver dragons just want to grow up and be blue dragons. We all know that.

Spoken like an evil, undeserving wingless drake. ;-D

Look at these horns! The magnificient angle of these horns.

Silvers are stiff, frigid and have to resort to slanderous pictures drawing horns on the nose of we noble blues like a giant pimple.

Plus those wings are clearly enhanced. Silvers resorting to plastic surgery, again.

hmm, maybe I should have made a blue dragon villian.

[Eric Morton]

roguerouge wrote:

I'm voting based on whether I like the applicant's avatar or not.

Just remember that I actually do have an avatar. It's a head-shot of an invisible stalker.

[Elora]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Just remember that I actually do have an avatar. It's a head-shot of an invisible stalker.

Ha! Nice.

Back to the OP's question, I will definitely take the wondrous item into consideration when I vote for a villain. It won't be one of my main decision criteria, but if I really disliked an item then I'm going to have to be really impressed by the villain. And I'll probably cut a little slack to the designers of my favorite wondrous items. (Here's looking at you, Haunted Shoes and Last Leaves!)

[Curaigh]

Certainly Christine was a favorite for me early on last year (somewhere in the Anvil round I think). Just in the same way I will look twice at a Logue or Pett adventure and might breeze past a curaigh adventure (I mean c'mon how do you even say that? :) So previous items do count imho. Burden becomes for the others to knock them off my favored list.

I too thought statting another's villain would be round 3. Most of us probably have at least some idea of the stats of our villains (which level do I have to be for cure light wounds?--how many feats needed before spring attack, which page are the stats for a CR 19 blue dragon...). Though I doubt it will be one of the others here.

More likely the call will be design a villain using one of these villains or they will get a picture of Eric Mona's avatar or stat a level 12 villain including one of these. This last is actually what I think would be the funnest...

[Eric Morton]

Maybe the sixteen winners will get to provide stats for the sixteen losing entries. You know, to prove that they can spice up concepts that didn't immediately click with the intended audience. That would be an intriguing twist.

[magdalena thiriet]

How I voted last year...the current entry matters more, especially on the first rounds. I ignored the item round almost completely, and only in the last couple of rounds I started to consider previous entries as a portfolio; before that every round was separate.

That said, I voted for Christine every round (no, sorry, on encounter round I didn't as I was sure she would go ahead anyway, and I wanted to throw my weight on third-best encounter...Jason's IIRC). Otherwise I ended up switching my votes every round, as another person who hadn't impressed me that much ended up doing great work etc.

So if you slack on third round, you won't earn my vote by a great second-round entry. And if your second-round entry left me indifferent, you can still get my support on third round.

[Craig Johnston]

Paul Worthen wrote:

Another thing they could do is give us all the same description and see what we all could do with it stat-wise.

I like this idea, but then they run the risk of having too many come out the same (not exactly, but similar enough).

Paul Worthen wrote:

I think the safe money is on statting up the guys we just wrote descriptions for.

I agree.

Curaigh wrote:

Most of us probably have at least some idea of the stats of our villains (which level do I have to be for cure light wounds?--how many feats needed before spring attack, which page are the stats for a CR 19 blue dragon...).

I statted my Villain up fully (as if I were making a PC) so I knew exactly what he had to be for where I wanted the concept to sit. Obviously when the Round 3 rules come out I will alter what I've written to accomodate them (provided I advance that is and even if I don't I would probably do it anyway).

roguerouge wrote:

I'm voting based on whether I like the applicant's avatar or not.

Yay, then Matthew, Elizabeth and I are all good. ;)

Everyone knows Blue Dragons are the bestest Dragons.

Svevenka rocks and how can you not vote for Calistria.
;D

[Neil Spicer]

flash_cxxi wrote:

Everyone knows Blue Dragons are the bestest Dragons.

Ahem! You must have a much different definition for "bestest" my friend... ;-D

--Neil

[Matthew Stinson]

I was looking around, but couldn't find the answer...
Will the villain be show before the voting starts. I work a lot of crazy hours and am wondering if I will have time to read them all.

[Matthew Stinson]

I like the Purple Dragons from the Dragon Compendion Vol. 1. They're like Red Dragons but more James Dean.

[Neil Spicer]

TheTwitching King wrote:

Will the villain be show before the voting starts.

If it works like last year, the voting should start as soon as the villains are posted for everyone to see. Right now, I'd imagine they're available for the judges, Top 4 finalists, and guest judge for the villain round to see so they can be the first to comment.

TheTwitching King wrote:

I like the Purple Dragons from the Dragon Compendion Vol. 1. They're like Red Dragons but more James Dean.

Considering that blue and red make purple, I don't think I'd view Purple Dragons as any better. ;-)

[Steven Helt]

In FR I think purple dragons were neutral. They are an almost extinct race that used to be ridden by the warriors of the..erm...ancient race...that ensaved the Mulhorandi....the..Imaskari?

In my epic game, when the party was sent back in time to 'experience' the revolution against the Imaskari (meaning get wiped out in the process), I had them breathing radiant force.

I can't remember how much of this and how much I filled in on my own. But I am glad I remember Imaskar!

Back to topic: anything goes for voting criterion. Some people will vote for their friends. Some will vote based on a body of work. We all know some items get a golden ticket becuase the judge wants to see how they'll perform in later rounds. If Lillith were in she'd brivbe us with cookies.

Me, I vote current round first unless someone has basically offended me with another entry. Then who knows? If I can't decide between current round submissions, I look at who I am most curious about or whom I think has the best taste and greatest sense of adventure.

Christine got votes from me in every round because of her unique ideas and record of adrenaline building ideas. She made me want to play at her table. Do that in every round and you're a superstar.