Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Simple enough question, right?
I get that we want to have a super-strong force field, and that's cool, but one of the arguments that came up back in the fighter playtest discussion was the fact that there are certain spells that are absolutely unbeatable without a specific countermeasure. WoF is such a spell. It cannot be broken by any amount of physical strength. It cannot be damaged by anything but disintegrate, which destroys it. It doesn't matter if you are an epic paragon l33t uber-tarrasque, you cannot break through this 5th level spell. It can't be done.
To me, that's a little silly.
It's not even consistent with the rest of the force effects in the game. Every force effect except for WoF and forcecage is either dispellable and relatively small in size, not affecting movement (shield, mage's sword, spiritual weapon) or has hit points (Bigby's ... hand) and can be attacked.
One solution is to give classes like barbarians and fighters high-level capstone-type abilities that let them smash or destroy indestructible things. I suggested a few such things. The problem is that you end up with a lot of specialized idiosyncratic solutions to counter one problem. Why not go to the source and fix that?
I want WoF and FC to be super-tough and hard to break. I'm perfectly okay with having them be immune to dispelling (though I could see an argument to make them and perhaps some other spells subject only to greater dispel magic, just to give the higher-level spell a little more juice, but that's really a separate notion).
That said, there is plenty of precedent in sci-fi and fantasy for force shields getting battered down, shattered, broken through, or otherwise circumvented by constant pounding. I'd say there are more examples of this than there are of shields that are just flat-out unbeatable.
So what to do? By way of comparison:
Wall of ice is 4th level, hardness 0, 3 hit points per level.
Wall of stone is 5th level, hardness 8, 3.75 hit points per level (15/inch, 1 inch/4 levels)
Wall of iron is also 5th level, hardness 10, 7.5 hit points per level (30/inch, 1 inch/4 levels)
Wall of force is also 5th level, and unlike all the others only lasts 1 round per level. Why not make it work like so:
Hardness: 20 (so adamantine weapons don't penetrate its hardness), or perhaps even 20 +1 per caster level, or a flat hardness of 30.
Hit points: 15 per level (continuing the doubling from stone to iron)
As an object, it suffers half damage from energy attacks (1/2 damage from cold). Allow the disintegrate spell to bypass its hardness, or just make it an auto-counter spell that beats it.
This kind of barrier would still be VERY hard to break down and would block line of effect and ethereal creatures and all the rest, but it would at least give the max-power-attacking fighter or giant or dragon some theoretical chance to blast its way out of the wizard's cage.
Alternatively, leave everything as is and make WoF and forcecage have a duration of concentration. Sure, they are unbeatable, but you have to bend your will to holding them up to make sure they stay that way.
Thoughts?
(apologies if the original post ever shows up; it appears to have been postmonstered)
I'd support the Hardness 30 method, with Disintegrate getting the line 'Disintegrate counters and dispels Wall of Force.'
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I support wholeheartedly idea of all Wall spell descriptions containing DR and HP.
It's a great way to help martial characters and, at the same time, changes certain absolute abilities into relative ones (i.e. "cannot overcome" into "takes a lot of effort to overcome") thus improving scalability.
Regards,
Ruemere
That's pretty much my point. Make these things really hard to overcome, not absolute "I win, you lose" propositions. I think the game would be better for it.
To me, a wall of force is a force in the same sense that gravity is a force. You can't attack a gravity well to ignore gravitational attraction, so you can't attack a wall of force to ignore the wall's repulsiveness. It's like an infinite electrical potential versus an electron; the electron just isn't getting through (without quantum tunneling, a.k.a. teleportation).
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Grrr, I posted to the wrong duplicate thread. Reposting here....
I hate to burst your bubble, but wall of force and force cage aren't the only force spells that are unbreakable. Resilient sphere and telekinetic sphere also share that trait.
I don't like the concept of letting damage break through force effects. I think the only ones that can be damaged are the various hand spells, and if you're looking for internal consistency, I'd rather those become either a) immune to damage, or b) no longer force effects.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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To me, a wall of force is a force in the same sense that gravity is a force. You can't attack a gravity well to ignore gravitational attraction, so you can't attack a wall of force to ignore the wall's repulsiveness. It's like an infinite electrical potential versus an electron; the electron just isn't getting through (without quantum tunneling, a.k.a. teleportation).
"But captain, if we take another hit like that, the shields won't hold!"
Maybe you don't like the sci-fi comparison, perhaps because "shields" are so vaguely defined in sci-fi. How do they work anyway?
Perhaps I've read too many comic books & seen movies where force fields are total blockers... until they get knocked down. The Hulk keeps pounding on the Invisible Girl's force field or Dr. Strange's 'shield of the seraphim,' sooner or later it's gonna give.
I think I would counter your argument by saying that, in D&D terms, "Force" is a game-mechanical term that refers to solid items crafted of pure magical energy.
There are spells that exert small-f "force" in the sense that you use it, and which cannot be attacked because they are a "force" and not an object - spells like repulsion, telekinesis, mage hand, and the aforementioned reverse gravity.
The distinction is that spells in D&D with the [force] descriptor aren't like that, and none of the above spells has that descriptor.
Spells of [force] create tangible solid objects (even if they are very short-lived, like magic missiles) that are crafted of a particular kind of stuff, which the game calls force. They aren't forces in the common-sense definition of the world. They are swords and shields and walls and hands and spheres and little amorphous unseen servants - in short, they are things made of force.
The question is what the properties of [force] as a material should be, since the game hasn't quite made up its mind what they should be, since some force objects (walls, cages, and resilient spheres) are indestructible and some aren't.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah, I have to agree. I would have TPKed a party in Maure Castle had they not cast Wall of Force to keep the nasty gnoll cleric chick off them (she had cast her dispel in an earlier skirmish...).
Pesky party saving spell, how I hate thee!!!
See, but that's exactly my point: It would still be a party saving spell!
WoF would have STILL kept the gnoll cleric off of them for as long as it would have taken for them to spell up and recover, while burning off duration on her super-buffs. The party would have had several rounds at least of respite from her ravages even if she was a super-deluxe power attacking machine. If she didn't have power attack, she's probably not getting through the hardness of the wall, period.
Altering the spell in this way does not turn WoF from indestructible into wet tissue paper. It is still super-hard to overcome or blast through. It just isn't impossible.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Grrr, I posted to the wrong duplicate thread. Reposting here....
I hate to burst your bubble, but wall of force and force cage aren't the only force spells that are unbreakable. Resilient sphere and telekinetic sphere also share that trait.
Good point, which makes it even worse! Now you have an indestructible FOURTH level spell that is immune to everything. Also known as the "Hi, enjoy sitting there while the rest of us play D&D" spell!
I don't like the concept of letting damage break through force effects. I think the only ones that can be damaged are the various hand spells, and if you're looking for internal consistency, I'd rather those become either a) immune to damage, or b) no longer force effects.
Unseen servant also can be damaged.
There is also a third subset of things which aren't attackable but are dispellable, things like mage armor, shield, spiritual weapon and the like, but these spells aren't "completely take someone out of the combat with no possible thing they can do about it" spells, which makes them okay in my book.
Yeah, I have to agree. I would have TPKed a party in Maure Castle had they not cast Wall of Force to keep the nasty gnoll cleric chick off them (she had cast her dispel in an earlier skirmish...).
Pesky party saving spell, how I hate thee!!!
See, but that's exactly my point: It would still be a party saving spell!
WoF would have STILL kept the gnoll cleric off of them for as long as it would have taken for them to spell up and recover, while burning off duration on her super-buffs. The party would have had several rounds at least of respite from her ravages even if she was a super-deluxe power attacking machine. If she didn't have power attack, she's probably not getting through the hardness of the wall, period.
Altering the spell in this way does not turn WoF from indestructible into wet tissue paper. It is still super-hard to overcome or blast through. It just isn't impossible.
I agree with this, I dislike effects that cannot be overcome - and it should be the same with force cube
(I think hardness 30 is too high - 20 is enough plus a bundle of hp's)
Edit: I accidentally said force cube when I meant force cage. But isnt the cube of force (wondrous item) able to be knocked down? (I have never used one)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another reason not to even need this change are walls and floors. Is there really a need to make wall of force really, really, really hard but breakable, when anyone who could break through it could break through the walls, floor, ceilings around the wall of force instead, and easier?
Yes, this doesn't work with forcecage, but that's why it's a higher level spell.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Good point, which makes it even worse! Now you have an indestructible FOURTH level spell that is immune to everything. Also known as the "Hi, enjoy sitting there while the rest of us play D&D" spell!Grrr, I posted to the wrong duplicate thread. Reposting here....
I hate to burst your bubble, but wall of force and force cage aren't the only force spells that are unbreakable. Resilient sphere and telekinetic sphere also share that trait.
Actually, I use the sphere all the time, and never once used it on an enemy - letting them save for no effect is for chumps! I used the sphere as a personal force bubble of safety when my wizard got in over his head (or after purposefully drawing off some of the enemies to chase me, then pop into a sphere, meanwhile letting my allies do something with a lot less opposition.) Once in, cast a buff spell or drink a healing potion, then dimension door out. The sphere can also be used similar to an immovable rod by casing it to block a hallway or door. It's got a lot more going for it than taking an enemy out of the fight for a few minutes (that's what maze is for).
Yes, this doesn't work with forcecage, but that's why it's a higher level spell.
But it also doesn't work with resilient sphere and that is a lower level spell.
I don't think wall of force is all that powerful that it needs to be changed. In our games it has generally been the "*insert 4 letter word*! we can't handle this" spell. Basically it has been used to keep them from us and either allow us to regroup or flee. At best it allows you 2 minutes of a head start (@20th level), at worst a round or 2 as the enemy teleports past or digs through their stuff to pull a potion of blink/DD/whatever to bypass it (Yes I know ethereal creatures are blocked from going through, but like it states in the spell they can go through the floor/walls to bypass).
As for the "well giving it hp/hardness doesn't change anything"... It really does. Maybe not for those who deal damage in little increments but for those who can deal lots of damage at once, the wall will fail and in a shorter amount of time then the already very short duration. And like I explained above, if your group is getting put out by this spell at 7-9th level when they can expect to see it used against them they are not using their brains at all.
"But captain, if we take another hit like that, the shields won't hold!"Maybe you don't like the sci-fi comparison, perhaps because "shields" are so vaguely defined in sci-fi. How do they work anyway?
Perhaps I've read too many comic books & seen movies where force fields are total blockers... until they get knocked down. The Hulk keeps pounding on the Invisible Girl's force field or Dr. Strange's 'shield of the seraphim,' sooner or later it's gonna give.
Well the real answer to your question is, they work that way so there is drama. If they could stay up indefinitely there wouldn't be any drama, no reason to come back and see the next show, no excitement or wonder as to how they will get out of the situation they are in. If they (forcefields, shields, etc)didn't "give up" there would be a stalemate or no sense of drama and the story would get stale because they could always "just put up the forcefield" and wait it out. I mean these are stories that someone is publishing to get you to buy the next one for all intent and purposes. Ending a story line and starting up another costs them money and time. It is better for them to stretch out the story until they can't any longer and soak you for as much as they can. Here we are talking about a game where you can up and start over without any real investment or cost. The drama of the game here is brought forth by the interaction of the PC's and the NPC's, leaving wall of force as it is isn't going to break that. If a character dies, they bring in another one. In the comics if a character dies they generally don't come back and that is the end of that particular money making scheme. (Not to mention that wall of force DOES fail, just at the end of its duration - not because of some raging green giant beating on it.)
Also we are talking about magic here, I don't see why there HAS to be a counter for every spell. I get what you are saying but there are ways around the spell if you think it through that don't require extraordinary resources or specialty items just for the "pesky wall of force", so I don't believe your changes are required.
Anyways just my scattered 2 cents as I'm posting from work!
If a Wall of Force had Hardness 30 and, say, 1000 HP per square foot, it would be so close to invulnerable as to not matter, while still making it reasonable for, say the Tarrasque or a volcano to eventually beat its way in.
Actually, I use the sphere all the time, and never once used it on an enemy - letting them save for no effect is for chumps! I used the sphere as a personal force bubble of safety when my wizard got in over his head (or after purposefully drawing off some of the enemies to chase me, then pop into a sphere, meanwhile letting my allies do something with a lot less opposition.) Once in, cast a buff spell or drink a healing potion, then dimension door out. The sphere can also be used similar to an immovable rod by casing it to block a hallway or door. It's got a lot more going for it than taking an enemy out of the fight for a few minutes (that's what maze is for).Good point, which makes it even worse! Now you have an indestructible FOURTH level spell that is immune to everything. Also known as the "Hi, enjoy sitting there while the rest of us play D&D" spell!Grrr, I posted to the wrong duplicate thread. Reposting here....
I hate to burst your bubble, but wall of force and force cage aren't the only force spells that are unbreakable. Resilient sphere and telekinetic sphere also share that trait.
Only one problem... the Resilient sphere states specifically that NOTHING can enter or leave it. So you have to dismiss it to after things around you. Most of the other force spells state specifically that teleport or what not can pass through them.
Quote from spell discription:
"Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."
Complete protection unless dispelled by one of the four methods presented in the discription.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Actually, I use the sphere all the time, and never once used it on an enemy - letting them save for no effect is for chumps! I used the sphere as a personal force bubble of safety when my wizard got in over his head (or after purposefully drawing off some of the enemies to chase me, then pop into a sphere, meanwhile letting my allies do something with a lot less opposition.) Once in, cast a buff spell or drink a healing potion, then dimension door out. The sphere can also be used similar to an immovable rod by casing it to block a hallway or door. It's got a lot more going for it than taking an enemy out of the fight for a few minutes (that's what maze is for).Good point, which makes it even worse! Now you have an indestructible FOURTH level spell that is immune to everything. Also known as the "Hi, enjoy sitting there while the rest of us play D&D" spell!Grrr, I posted to the wrong duplicate thread. Reposting here....
I hate to burst your bubble, but wall of force and force cage aren't the only force spells that are unbreakable. Resilient sphere and telekinetic sphere also share that trait.
Save negates can be for chumps, unless your target has a fairly obvious bad reflex save, and then it becomes an "I win." I mostly am thinking about this from the perspective of the player of a Ftr/Brb/Pal type of a character (most spellcasters have middlin to lousy Ref saves too, but probably have access to a dispel, unless of course they've used thir prepared dispels for the day and/or are out of dispel scrolls). It woudl also apply, though, to strong/big monsters with relatively low Dex (assuming you can fit them in the force bubble).
Also, the kind of application that I mean is only partially about trapping a creature INSIDE the WoF or ResSphere or the like; it is also about trapping them WITH it. Much like your corridor-blocking application, you are not technically including them in the AoE, but blocking them into a corner, or bisecting a room with this immovable barrier. It's true, a PC could in theory burrow a hole under or around it by inflicting 900 points of damage to the surrounding stone, which would destroy a 5 x 5 section of stone and allow egress. You could do 450 points and carve a 2-1/2-foot hole and Escape Artist your way out.
This is, of course, assuming that your DM doesn't invoke the "some weapons are ineffectual against some objects" rule to stop you from using your greatsword to hack through a stone wall.
Anyway, my feeling is just that having unbeatable trumps is not ideal.
Heck, just change it to be like so:
"Objects created of magical force have the same hardness and hit points as items made of adamantine. Attacks with a disintegrate spell ignore their hardness and inflict double damage." This is hardness 20, 40 hp/inch. The standard wall spell formula is either 1 inch/level (ice) or 1 inch/4 levels (stone, iron). Split the difference with force and call it 1 inch/2 levels, so effectively 20 hp/level.
Fair enough?
Split the difference with force and call it 1 inch [wide]/2 levels...
I'm pretty sure that a wall of force is two-dimensional, and thus has no width. Hence, measures of hit points per inch do not apply. Note that this establishes a fairly consistent pattern for force effects: those that create three-dimensional solids are vulnerable to damage; those that create two-dimensional surfaces are not.
Jason, that wording has rules baggage for the old force effects that could be destroyed, like unseen servants.
It can't describe force in general, it can only describe the spell effect.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Split the difference with force and call it 1 inch [wide]/2 levels...I'm pretty sure that a wall of force is two-dimensional, and thus has no width. Hence, measures of hit points per inch do not apply. Note that this establishes a fairly consistent pattern for force effects: those that create three-dimensional solids are vulnerable to damage; those that create two-dimensional surfaces are not.
I dunno about that. Is a resilient sphere a 2D surface or a 3D solid? And an unseen servant is amusingly no-D, as it has no shape or dimensions or size.
For that matter, is a spiritual weapon or mage's sword a 2D surface or a 3D solid?
The other point, of course, is that this is the playtest. We can MAKE the wall have thickness if we want to.
Of we could just leave it 2D and assign it arbitrary hardness and HP based on caster level, not on thickness.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Jason, that wording has rules baggage for the old force effects that could be destroyed, like unseen servants.
It can't describe force in general, it can only describe the spell effect.
Since US has no dimensions, size, or thickness, it's no big deal on hit points, but it does give it hardness.
Except wait! An US isn't an object, like a wall, sphere, sword, hand, or whatever, so "treating it like an object made of adamantine" is irrelevant.
Still, it does make the various "hand" spells a lot harder to destroy, but I'm actually pretty okay with that.
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If a Wall of Force had Hardness 30 and, say, 1000 HP per square foot, it would be so close to invulnerable as to not matter, while still making it reasonable for, say the Tarrasque or a volcano to eventually beat its way in.
We house-ruled a similar thing back in GURPS, when it was demonstrated that a Force Dome spell (the GURPS version of wall of force) could kill a flying dragon outright by creating it in front of it and stopping it cold.
I'd completely support the idea of 'magical force fields' being breakable, with extreme force. I'd also support the idea that some some ritual / magic item versions of the spell are indeed indestructible, for use as plot elements.
In one of the Bloodstone adventures, we actually did use wall of force to stop a Tarrasque...
I like the 'hardness of adamantine' concept. That one works for me.
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Hardness: 20 (so adamantine weapons don't penetrate its hardness), or perhaps even 20 +1 per caster level, or a flat hardness of 30.
Hit points: 15 per level (continuing the doubling from stone to iron)
I totally agree that they should not be "unbreakable - period."
Difficult, yes; but not impossible.
The intervention to ensure adamantite cannot pass through it is a good start.
Wall of Stone has 1 inch per 4 levels - meaning at 12th level it would be 3 inches thick. Each inch if 15 hit points (so 45 hit points); and an 8 hardness.
I don't see a problem with WoF having the 20 hardness;
Quick comparison with 10 hit points per caster level - that would be 120 hit points at 12th level (after overcoming the 20 hardness - vs the 8 for same level spell Wall of Stone and only 45 hit points).
Is that a fair comparison?
I mean a big 12th level barbarian with greataxe and a 26 str while raging and powerattacking would do 1d12+28 (plus any magic - say +3) Thats an avg of about 38 points of damage - 20 = 18. That would take 7 attacks (3 rounds) of pounding on it!
So 10 / level might be too low for some - so use this as a guage to figure out a more appropriate amount; but I wouldn't suggest more than 20 per caster level.
Robert
So what do we use then for those cool adventures that are set in the side of a mountain.. with a volcano running along the corridor, held back by a permanent wall of force.
Or any number of old material that uses wall of force as "indestructable" as a crucial element to the reason it's there in the campaign/adventure/encounter.
..
I dunno. If it's going to be nigh indestructable for the average party anyways... then who really cares of a hypothetical tarrasque or volcano can't bust through it?
I like the idea that you need to break through the rock around a force wall instead. I like the idea of a two dimensional wall of force being the only thing between you and utter doom (lava, space, etc).
This kind of change might break backward compatibility a bit much simply to make it breakable by tarrasques.
Fine as a houserule, but I don't see this needing to be changed in core rules.
I was thinking about this, and it makes sense that perhaps you cannot actually damage or destory a Wall of Force. It, after all, has no substance. The acid/lava/whatever will never burn through because there is nothing to burn. There is only a very stong, very concentrated magical 'wind' (a 'force' if you will) pushing the stuff back.
However, that doesn't mean you can't get through. Perhaps with a sufficient Strength check (I recall this being an Apic use for Escape artist, actually), you can simply shove directly through the Wall, because you pushed harder than the force. There is no damage, and no gap, because once you're through, the force simply rexerts itself.
You could say it has hardness 30, 1000hp, AND it heals all damage at the end of every round. That way, you would have to deal enough damage IN ONE ROUND to get through it. An entire army of giants beating on it at the same time might get through, the heat of the sun would get through etc, but otherwise it is virtually invulnerable.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I was thinking about this, and it makes sense that perhaps you cannot actually damage or destory a Wall of Force. It, after all, has no substance. The acid/lava/whatever will never burn through because there is nothing to burn. There is only a very stong, very concentrated magical 'wind' (a 'force' if you will) pushing the stuff back.
However, that doesn't mean you can't get through. Perhaps with a sufficient Strength check (I recall this being an Apic use for Escape artist, actually), you can simply shove directly through the Wall, because you pushed harder than the force. There is no damage, and no gap, because once you're through, the force simply rexerts itself.
I like this a lot. Having a way for extreme strength to burst through is okay, I was just against the hardness/hp model that would wind up letting any 15th level fighter beat through the wall automatically in 1-3 rounds.
I'd suggest DC 30 or 35 strength check.
I'd suggest DC 30 or 35 strength check.
At least 35. An iron door is DC 28 to bust in, and shoving yourself bodily through a Wall of Force should be way harder than that.
Edit: How about DC 25 + Caster Level? That way it scales.
Also, the Wall of Force description says that if it is somehow broken, it fails, so it really does become a break DC.
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I'd suggest DC 30 or 35 strength check.At least 35. An iron door is DC 28 to bust in, and shoving yourself bodily through a Wall of Force should be way harder than that.
Edit: How about DC 25 + Caster Level? That way it scales.
Also, the Wall of Force description says that if it is somehow broken, it fails, so it really does become a break DC.
The Eldritch Wall Spells from Aracna Unearthed/Evolved (Which is OGL) Solve this. The lesser wall has a flat 10 hp/level. The higher level one has I think 20 per level. They have the Sphere spells as well.
For your consideration.
I find it pretty amusing that in the same overall forum we have "Stop the tunneling through walls by attacking them" and "Let me tunnel through forcefields by attacking them". Not started by the same people, of course, but still amusing.
I don't see why everything has to be destroyable. There are plenty of counters to a wall of force that don't involve going through it, and it loses a good deal of its value if it can be negated by having two or three guys beating on it for a round. At that point, you're better off casting grease instead. Or, even better, entangle. The only value wall of force has is that it's indestructible short of specialized magic.
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For me the issue is less 'Wall of Force' and more 'less all-or-nothing spells.'
I'm not a fan of unstoppable or irresistable effects.
If I need a magical castle inside of a volcano, with a bazillion tons of lava held back by some mystical barrier, to set a cool scene, I'm the DM, I can do that without having a 5th level spell that the party can then cast to stop Tarrasques. I'll say that it's an Incantation, and required dozens of elven high mages working in concert, and that the formula is only known to certain Efreeti Lords in the City of Brass. Sure, the PCs could quest it down and somehow fulfill the casting requirements, if they wanted to build a castle of their own inside a volcano somewhere, but it won't be a 5th level spell, it won't have a Standard Action casting time, and they won't be using it to mess up Epic level encounters.
I'm just mean that way. If they want to shut down an Epic level encounter, they better bring something bigger than Wall of Force.
It takes more than a wall of force to stop the Tarrasque. For one thing, it's 50 feet tall, and wall of force is only one 10' square per level. Even if you're level 20, you can only make at most a 40' wide x 50' high wall, which takes the Tarrasque all of half a turn to get around. If you make it any shorter, it'll just go over the wall instead of around it - think about it; humans can easily scramble over a wall that's no higher than they are, why wouldn't Big T be able to? If you try to make a wide wall instead of a tall one, it'd just WALK over it. Again, 50' tall creature.
And the Tarrasque is about as brute force as you get with epic creatures. Pretty much anything else you can think up either has an alternative form of movement (teleportation, burrow, flight...) or has spells. Or both.
So what do we use then for those cool adventures that are set in the side of a mountain.. with a volcano running along the corridor, held back by a permanent wall of force.
Permanent. Thats a good call. There's a spell called Permanency in fact.
Robert
Considering it's right in the spell description that it can be made permanent, that's not what I was talking about.
If a wall of force can be destroyed through being smacked around... that's no different for when it's made permanent.
Permanency only affects the duration of the spell. It makes it's duration turn from rounds or minutes per level, to unlimited. That doesn't change the fact that it could be hit with a Disintigrate and go "poof".
Regular spells made peramenent go "poof" when hit with a dispel magic, for instance.
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So those adventures that have permanent walls of force set up, intending to keep people out of a particular area, or keep the place from falling apart, suddenly don't work anymore because of this kind of change.
The DM will have to come up with some new reason, or come up with a different "wall of force, only indestructible" spell... at which point, we are back to square one... what if the PCs want to research said spell... what level should it be? Now the DM has to figure out things on the fly again.
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I don't see the reason for making this change if the intent isn't for players to just blast through it anyways. If it's a thematic change.. then make it for your homebrew game, and don't screw with the campaign settings and adventure paths out there that might rely on this.
Part of the idea of the change is to make the game less dependant on Spellcasters at high levels. If the ONLY countermeasure to a Wall of Force is Disintegrate, then it becomes possible to just shut a level 20 barbarian in the corner with this spell. If it's a PC, then hopefully there will be a Wizard, Sorcerer, or at least someone with Use Magic Device and the funds to buy a scroll and come back. If it's an NPC, say a villian, it's really lame that there is absolutely nothing he can do.
Why make the game less dependant on spellcasters at higher levels? I'd rather make the game have a reason to have non-spellcasters at higher levels, than make it so spellcasters aren't required.
The primary reason I see having a spellcaster around is because he's like a swiss army knife: he can, given time, get the right tool to counter a situation.
That doesn't mean he's a show stealer, or that he doesn't need anyone else. Sometimes the counter is simply to cast fly on your melee friend so HE can do all the damage to the flying creaures, etc.
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In this particular case, I don't see the need to remove the functionality of this spell. It's one single spell that happens to require a caster, or a character with UMD. It's not going to come up often, but when it does, it breaks the monotony of "deal more damage and we'll win".
I'm sorry, but I like having alternatives to "deal more damage", forcing the players to come up with alternative options.
If there's one aspect of 4e I REALLY disliked, it's the uniformity of solving problems. Everyone is able to heal to an extent, capable of doing hitpoint damage to an extent, and able to use his skills in nearly any situation (skill challenges).
I like 3e because it has these varied situations... where sometimes just beating it to death isn't at all possible, or where having hitpoints won't matter, etc.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, there are other methods available to non-casters. As previously mentioned, a wall of force is just a single wall. If it boxes you in a corner, then you break through the wall and go around if you're a brute, go incorporeal, teleport, etc.
Also, anyone can have a rod of cancellation handy to zap the wall of force away. That's only 11K gp, which at high levels isn't very much really. You could also make a custom single shot disintigrate wondrous item for even cheaper. (BTW, shroud of disintigration seems to be missing from beta and the web enhancement - have to mention that in the magic item section when it opens up.)
Also, even if your trapped bad guy can't get out, if they can go invisible (easy through a potion), then the party won't know if he's still trapped or if he teleported away and is on his way back and that could really play some nasty mind games with them.
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Also, even if your trapped bad guy can't get out, if they can go invisible (easy through a potion), then the party won't know if he's still trapped or if he teleported away and is on his way back and that could really play some nasty mind games with them.
The wizard that cast the Wall of Force in the first place can easily make a Knowlege Arcana to identify that the effects of the potion was an Invisibility spell - and not some teleportative ability.
Robert
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Part of the idea of the change is to make the game less dependant on Spellcasters at high levels. If the ONLY countermeasure to a Wall of Force is Disintegrate, then it becomes possible to just shut a level 20 barbarian in the corner with this spell. If it's a PC, then hopefully there will be a Wizard, Sorcerer, or at least someone with Use Magic Device and the funds to buy a scroll and come back. If it's an NPC, say a villian, it's really lame that there is absolutely nothing he can do.
I feel the same way.
I've decided to try "a creature can force his way through with 3 consecutive DC 25 strength checks. The creature weakens the area just enough by his continuous assault on it, and forces his way through it - the energy of the wall of force instantly reseals behind him - only that one creature is ever able to get through."
3 consecutive STR checks of DC 25 seems to be enough of a challenge - yet attainable (albeit very infrequently).
Robert
I realized that a Cube of Force effectively has Hardness 30, so that provides precedent for the hardness of a Wall of Force!
Why make the game less dependant on spellcasters at higher levels? I'd rather make the game have a reason to have non-spellcasters at higher levels, than make it so spellcasters aren't required.
Unfortunately, the disparity in power between spellcasters and non-spellcasters right now is immense. You're going to have to nerf one group and buff the other in order to bring them into parity. I don't see any reason to play a non-spellcaster in Pathfinder right now.
The primary reason I see having a spellcaster around is because he's like a swiss army knife: he can, given time, get the right tool to counter a situation.
And non-spellcasters are much like a board with a nail in it - you might be able to use the nail to pick a lock, and it's good for bonking people over the head, but it's not a suitable tool to use in situations outside of those two roles.
That doesn't mean he's a show stealer, or that he doesn't need anyone else. Sometimes the counter is simply to cast fly on your melee friend so HE can do all the damage to the flying creaures, etc.
Non-spellcasters serve one major role in the game right now - taking care of "trash monsters". This allows spellcasters to hold their power in reserve for fights with Boss Monsters, at which point they can use their spells and abilities to their full potential. The only reason they don't do this all the time is because 1) that's the quickest route to the 15 minute adventuring day and 2) they don't want to get caught with their pants down after a battle.
If not for this fact, spellcasters wouldn't bother buffing classes that can't cast spells - they'd just handle things themselves. God knows they have enough tools on hand to do the job.
In this particular case, I don't see the need to remove the functionality of this spell. It's one single spell that happens to require a caster, or a character with UMD. It's not going to come up often, but when it does, it breaks the monotony of "deal more damage and we'll win".
Who can get rid of Wall of Force? Wizards and Sorcerers. Anyone else? Nope. No Wizard or Sorcerer in your party? Did you pick up a bag of Rods of Cancellation at the Magic Shop before you left for the adventure?
No? Well, you're boned then. Enjoy being shelled from above!
If there's one aspect of 4e I REALLY disliked, it's the uniformity of solving problems. Everyone is able to heal to an extent, capable of doing hitpoint damage to an extent, and able to use his skills in nearly any situation (skill challenges).
I don't like everyone having the same options... but I at least want them to have SOME options! If there's anything that this playtest has taught me, it's how few options non-spellcasters have at their disposal at higher level play. The game isn't balanced at all for parties with no spellcasters, and it's not even really balanced if you want to rely on alternative spellcasters like Druids and Bards. This game is balanced around Wizards and Clerics and that's about it - and that really needs to change.
This spell is fine as is. I've never seen it be a problem at high level play, it's more a delay tool or get out of a jam tool at that stage it seems. The duration is after all one round per level. (Forcecage however, is is downright deadly if used right, but it's appropriately compensated for IMO)
Of the examples I've seen above with martial characters getting trapped behind one and so called screwing them... if it happens every now-and-then, why is this a big deal? Is it so bad that once in a while, you're hampered? If this trick is being pulled on a consistent basis, then I can see it as a problem. But pulling this trick all the time is what's the real problem. First, it gets boring. And even if it's a common occurrence and the martial character is getting sick of becoming victim to such a tactic, there are counter-measures he can employ. (UMD, armor of etherealness, ring of spell storing, rod of cancellation, ring of blinking, cape of the mountebank, cloak of etherealness, maul of the titans, potion of fly or gaseous form [in some instances], and of course... a good 'ol readied action to attack (or move) if the caster starts casting a spell) The last assumes concentration checks get fixed, which IMO, is an example of a better way to bring parity between classes and encounters, instead of trying to fix a spell which is fine as is.
Jason Nelson, I can see your initial point, and what you and others would like to see happen to this spell... but I think it should stay the way it always has for the core rules. We've always had fun in our games the way it is written.
Who can get rid of Wall of Force? Wizards and Sorcerers. Anyone else? Nope. No Wizard or Sorcerer in your party? Did you pick up a bag of Rods of Cancellation at the Magic Shop before you left for the adventure?
No? Well, you're boned then. Enjoy being shelled from above!
What, no archers to attack the flying enemies and all the melee characters just happened to leave their potions of fly, boots of flying, and so on in their other pants?
That's a hallmark of bad players, no bad game design. Wall of Force can be overcome without requiring disintegrate, rods of cancellation, or disjunction. They can't be DESTROYED without those things, but they can be overcome.
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I would like to point your attention to:disintegrate[/i] spell (page 221)"]The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.and...wall of force[/i] spell(page 286)]Disintegrate immediately destroys itProblem solved. The old adage of "fight fire with fire" seems to apply rather nicely, I'd say.
This is by no means a broken spell due to the fact that it has a duration of 1 round/ level, it must be a vertical plain so it can't be used to make impromptu ledges or bridges, and there is a list of things that can directly "counter" it.
"But the warrior types can't hack there way through" you say? Well a mage can't drop a dragon in melee in one round either, but you don't hear them complaining about it. Oh wait, yes you can (See "mages get no love" threads).
the mage is MUCH more likely to drop a dragon in a single round (but thats a discussion for another thread) HERE HERE , walls of force as DR (makes mythic metals even cooler to have...^^)
What, no archers to attack the flying enemies and all the melee characters just happened to leave their potions of fly, boots of flying, and so on in their other pants?
Wall Of Force stops forward movement of melee characters. Then you follow up with Wind Wall to neuter the archers, and then take to the skies and use your Wand of Dispel Magic to dispel their fly effects. When you're tired of watching them waste their magic trying to reach you, then you destroy them.
But Wall Of Force is actually at its worst underground. You can use it to split the party fairly effectively. Once you split the party, you can then murder half of them at your leisure while the rest of the party tries to figure out if they can tunnel through stone to get to you before their friends are done. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Who can get rid of Wall of Force? Wizards and Sorcerers. Anyone else? Nope.
Who can create a Wall of Force? Wizards and Sorcerers. Anyone else? Nope.
If you are going to face such a threat, then you had better be ready to face something as simple as a Wall of Force. You could be facing worse (Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Baleful Polymorph, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Teleport or Telekinesis).
Keep in mind a simple potion of Jump or Levitate could bypass the wall for a Melee character too.
Other options? Passwall, Teleportation spells (Dimension Door is a commonly memorized spell and a level lower), Ethereal Jaunt (and move under or around through non-force areas), Gaseous Form to fly through any crack left (the wall has to be continuous), Flight of any kind... which, by the way, can't be dispelled if it's a magic item.
A simple running jump to grab the top of the wall, and a climb check to pull yourself over allows getting past (vertical reach is 8' on a Medium creature, +1' per 4 DC on your Jump check. Monks easily beating most wall spells).
If you are flying to have line of effect on the group, then the group has line of effect on you. There's no "shot on the run" for spellcasting.
Blocking line of effect can be as easy as an Obscuring Mist spell too.
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The point is, the wall isn't unbeatable. You still have a lot of options, cheap and some even within reach of a non-casting Melee character.