Seoni may be bearing an unfair share of providing "Cheesecake" art to the fans of Paizo. I would like to ask the community, who do we need more "Fan Service" art from?
.
.
The Iconics
Amiri
Kyra
Lini (but there is a hazard with Gnomish females looking to child-like. :()
Merisiel
Seelah
Seoni (Is there such a thing as "too much" Seoni art?)
Important NPCs
Ankana
Calistra
Desna
Iomedae
Lavander Lil
Pharisma
Queen Ileosa Arabasti
Sabina Merrin
Serenrae
Shaleu Andosana
Shelyn
Trinia Sabor
(Any that I missed?)
So who do we need to see more of . . . in less clothing?
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.
Yes.
At at the same time, not nearly enough. :)
(B.T.W., IMHO these threads probibly should be moved to either "Gamer Life" or "Non-Gaming Discussion" pretty safely.)
Could this be an indication of the sign of our times, that we are more concerned with scantily dressed women than with the game or real life in general?
Just my 2 cp.
Actually, I doubt it.
The general male obsession with "Scanilty Dressed Women" goes all the way back to the Pin-Up art of the 1930s.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could this be an indication of the sign of our times, that we are more concerned with scantily dressed women than with the game or real life in general?
Just my 2 cp.
Actually, I doubt it.
The general male obsession with "Scanilty Dressed Women" goes all the way back to the Pin-Up art of the 1930s.
There is scantily clad women and sexually themed stuff from Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and pre-historic cave painting. Men like women. The less clothing the better. To deny and suppress a natural and healthy desire and make it seem dirty is the problem with society.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.
I'm really starting to agree. I'd kind of like to see all of these discussions wither on the vine. No offense to the OP or anything, I just think its run its course, and its an age old argument that goes down the exact same paths every time it comes up.
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.I'm really starting to agree. I'd kind of like to see all of these discussions wither on the vine. No offense to the OP or anything, I just think its run its course, and its an age old argument that goes down the exact same paths every time it comes up.
This is sadly true.
I just got here. I didn't even know who Seoni was before today, and now I've spent the afternoon researching the "Seoni problem." And there are still things I want to know about her.
Sexuality in RPGs is one of those topics that is almost never discussed. I got a little bit of heat on the Privateer Press forum when I deconstructed gender roles as portrayed in the Iron Kingdoms, with contemplation of how they would play out in IK societies. Fortunately, I don't know enough about Golaron to do the same thing here, yet.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.agreed
Agreed.
This thread on the other hand is getting absolutely no attention. Come on, what were your favourite posts of 2008?!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
I just got here. I didn't even know who Seoni was before today, and now I've spent the afternoon researching the "Seoni problem." And there are still things I want to know about her.
Sexuality in RPGs is one of those topics that is almost never discussed. I got a little bit of heat on the Privateer Press forum when I deconstructed gender roles as portrayed in the Iron Kingdoms, with contemplation of how they would play out in IK societies. Fortunately, I don't know enough about Golaron to do the same thing here, yet.
I'm sure there will be many conversations about sex and gender roles in Golarion for you to participate in. I've heard there's a few male tiefling prostitute-fetishists out there who will yack your ear off. Unfortunately, right now, I think the desire police are investigating and we'll have to shut you down. ;-)
|
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.agreedAgreed.
This thread on the other hand is getting absolutely no attention. Come on, what were your favourite posts of 2009?!
I don't know, 2009 hasn't come yet ;) lol
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
I don't know, 2009 hasn't come yet ;) lolTo me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.agreedAgreed.
This thread on the other hand is getting absolutely no attention. Come on, what were your favourite posts of 2009?!
I'm always thinking ahead. Okay, I edited it. Now, what were your favourite posts of 2008?
There's a problem?
I'm sure there will be many conversations about sex and gender roles in Golarion for you to participate in.
*Glances at the descriptions of the Abyssal domains of Zura, Nocticula, and Lamashtu*
Yes indeed. :D
|
|
So who do we need to see more of . . . in less clothing?
I like the druid, the rogue, and the sorcerer in that order, but I don't really care how much clothing they have on. As long as I can see their faces, I'm good.
Besides, what I've seen from PF is pretty tame...PG or PG-13...not exactly XXX...which of course I would be interested in.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I doubt it.
The general male obsession with "Scanilty Dressed Women" goes all the way back to the Pin-Up art of the 1930s.
Dude, I don't remember those fig leaves concealing much. Your estimation is off by about five millennium...
Men have been attracted to scantily clad images of women since men could draw...
;)
|
Contributor
|
I wouldn't mind seeing some sexy Amiri or Seoni art, or some more Shelyn art if they keep with that slightly-pudgy look from Gods and Magic. Waaaaay too much pinup work is bony girls with stupidly huge breasts, so it's refreshing to seeing a woman who's proportionate to her large breasts.
Just remember that none of this would have been such a problem if they had sent it out with a second image of Sajan or Ezren. Or, you know, all of the iconics semi-nude, like a naughty Paizo family XMas card.
Edit: myself, I wish they had gotten creative with the concept of an XMas card. I'd have loved a grotesque villains XMas card, featuring like Mammy Graaul, that Half-Skeleton goddess, some goblins, and the disgusting creatures from Carnival of Tears.
I love how you think it is OK to treat men as sex objects but not women.
(That's a joke, by the way. Sheesh, I love these threads where you have to flag that.)
Gotcha.
A close reading of what I wrote would show that I said that there would not have been such a problem had they done that. I made no statement, one way or another, about whether there should not have been such a problem in such a revised scenario. I was referencing the fact that the "parity in representation" argument seems to be the crowd-pleasing compromise on Paizo's boards, as we went through this whole debate back in the summer. You'll not have me wriggling in the grasp of reason so easily, Aubrey!
And, on a tangent, I completely agree with you that the flag feature has the capability of chilling legitimate expression or making it less elegant, as you note.
Meh, you got me.
More generally, I would be interested in your more considered view on the Seoni e-card since I know this sort of thing interests you.
My main opinion on this specific example is that the card is disappointingly boring and unimaginative. I mean, of all the things you could do with a Paizo XMas card, cheesecake is the most creative solution they could come up with? You couldn't have a goblin ransacking presents under a tree, holding up a Christmas turkey about to be eaten alive? A Mammy Graul Family Christmas card? An "I'm Dreaming of a Drow Christmas" album? Have that countdown in the Egyptian-themed modules reference XMas morning? In short, it felt formulaic.
As far as the controversy goes, I posted a link to that summer debate in the relevant thread. I made a post to that d7 blog, but it's just a short re-cap of what I'd said previously. I made it largely because I don't think of Paizo's customer base as being as defensive and like-minded as it was coming across over on that guy's blog, so I thought I'd do my bit to show the diversity of the actual customers over here for one (and only one) post there or here. (Yeah. Right. Best intentions, and all of that.)
Good to hear from you though. Have a happy new year.
Let's see:
Iconics: Give me Kyra (I'd like to see how she looks like under all those priestly vestments), Lini (make sure it doesn't get "childish"), and Merisiel.
Deities: Calistria, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Serenrae, Shelyn. Especially Cal. I'm still waiting for a picture that matches her description of a lascivously smiling elven female with a dress that hits your libido like an adamantine club.
Others: Ileosa, Trinia, Shalelu (why not?), Ileosa, Sabina (early) and Ileosa.
Yes, the Queen's mentioned twice.
And you forgot the halfling woman from Hangman's Noose, unless she's mentioned and I didn't recognise her name. I can't be the only one who thinks she's a stunner.
Hm.. can I have a picture of all female iconics, and, say, the 6 hottest NPCs, all naked and kicking some hapless sap to pulp? I want the victim to have a shirt that has "PC" printed on it. Not only would we get to see 12 girls nekkid, it would also express what I think of political correctness. ;-)
And if you think that's sexist, scrap the 6 NPCs and put all 12 iconics on the picture. Our female and gay fellow fans should also get a chance to enjoy not being politically correct!
|
|
Let's see:
Iconics: Give me Kyra (I'd like to see how she looks like under all those priestly vestments), Lini (make sure it doesn't get "childish"), and Merisiel.
Deities: Calistria, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Serenrae, Shelyn. Especially Cal. I'm still waiting for a picture that matches her description of a lascivously smiling elven female with a dress that hits your libido like an adamantine club.
Others: Ileosa, Trinia, Shalelu (why not?), Ileosa, Sabina (early) and Ileosa.
Yes, the Queen's mentioned twice.
And you forgot the halfling woman from Hangman's Noose, unless she's mentioned and I didn't recognise her name. I can't be the only one who thinks she's a stunner.
Hm.. can I have a picture of all female iconics, and, say, the 6 hottest NPCs, all naked and kicking some hapless sap to pulp? I want the victim to have a shirt that has "PC" printed on it. Not only would we get to see 12 girls nekkid, it would also express what I think of political correctness. ;-)
And if you think that's sexist, scrap the 6 NPCs and put all 12 iconics on the picture. Our female and gay fellow fans should also get a chance to enjoy not being politically correct!
When you said PC I thought it was because of the high attrition rate some of those women have caused. Darn Political Correctness to Heck for corrupting the true meaning of PC.
|
|
more Shelyn art if they keep with that slightly-pudgy look from Gods and Magic. Waaaaay too much pinup work is bony girls with stupidly huge breasts, so it's refreshing to seeing a woman who's proportionate to her large breasts.
I've decided that, in the countries were Shelyn is popular, she's portrayed as a larger woman, and the word 'Shelyn-esque' is used in the same way that modern people sometimes use 'Juno-esque.'
It's considered a sign of status to be full-figured, proof that your life (and / or marriage) is a successful one. There are even negative associations with thinner women, with assumptions that they must be poor and hobnobbing above their station (or ill).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Another thing is I think Shelyn should have that 'perfect' .8 ratio, and yes, with curves.
<-- misses curvy women in art.
As an aside, that .8 ratio seems to be a universal constant, from Reuben to Hurley.
The perception of beauty in men OTOH, has changed over time. Used to be, a belly was considered attractive as it meant he was a successful enough hunter to be fat, and belly fat metabolizes first, meaning he can go on longer hunts.
Thus my statement "I'm not fat, I'm anachronistically attractive."
|
Could this be an indication of the sign of our times, that we are more concerned with scantily dressed women than with the game or real life in general?
Just my 2 cp.
Actually, I doubt it.
The general male obsession with "Scanilty Dressed Women" goes all the way back to the Pin-Up art of the 1930s.
No, it goes back to our earliest years fighting monsters and cringing in caves when the storms came.
Whether peaople like it or not sexual desire is a real part of humanity. Now, my question really comes down to this...
Which is more acceptable to society? Sex or violence?
In America violence is more accpetable. Murder, blood and gore is just plain good fun. But allow our kids to feel an ounce of natural sexuality is THE DEVIL'S WORK!
People have their priorities mixed up.
When the Book of Erotic Fantasy came out people cried that it crossed the line. I have the book and it is really pretty darn boring and extremely tame.
But a weapon that can chop someone's head off on a crit is just cool!
|
|
While we're being politically incorrect about Seoni, may I ask why the lovely young Varisian lass, whose race is blatantly patterned on the Romany, is being depicted in fan art as having milky white skin? The young sorceress should have a more burnt sienna, or at least mocha, skin tone.
Brown is beautiful!
|
|
Another thing is I think Shelyn should have that 'perfect' .8 ratio, and yes, with curves.
<-- misses curvy women in art.
As an aside, that .8 ratio seems to be a universal constant, from Reuben to Hurley.
The perception of beauty in men OTOH, has changed over time. Used to be, a belly was considered attractive as it meant he was a successful enough hunter to be fat, and belly fat metabolizes first, meaning he can go on longer hunts.
Thus my statement "I'm not fat, I'm anachronistically attractive."
Speaking of changes to male attractiveness...
Facial and body hair (especially chest hair) are secondary sexual characteristics... in the same rough category as breasts.
It is interesting that the current idea of male attractiveness is one that lacks male secondary sexual characteristics and embraces a more feminine appearance. Essentially emasculating men.
It seems that women want men to look more like a woman, and women prefer the images of women that look more like men...
Let me defend that last part :) before you go ranting.
There is a depiction in the media of women being thin, which has led to an unhealthy self image of many women resulting in many mental disorders. However, if one looked at the women who appear in those nasty awful dirty men's magazines they would find that men are attracted to more curvy women, not the ones depicted in women's magazines.
The natural conclusion is that women find those depictions os scrawny women to be attractive, since men do not.
And while speaking about those awful dirty men's magazines I'd like to point out that there is an age requirement for them while the so-called romance novels, many of which are FAR more pornographic than a Playboy, are freely available to any age girl.
What I conclude from this is that it has become sinful for men to have sexual desires but it okay for women to have them, as long as they feel they are inadequate and unworthy of those desires.
Our society is so messed up.
|
|
While we're being politically incorrect about Seoni, may I ask why the lovely young Varisian lass, whose race is blatantly patterned on the Romany, is being depicted in fan art as having milky white skin? The young sorceress should have a more burnt sienna, or at least mocha, skin tone.
Brown is beautiful!
Because of the hidden fact that she is a vampire.
Not good if that became known mainstream :)
By Romany I assume you mean Roman, Latin in nature, which also had a nice brown tone. Only further north did you get the milky white. Where it is always cold and the sun does not shine as much. :)
|
|
It seems that women want men to look more like a woman, and women prefer the images of women that look more like men...
Let me defend that last part :) before you go ranting.
No, that's totally true. Models have been getting thinner and thinner, having more 'boyish' haircuts and outfits, and minimized breasts and butts, to make them look 'boyish.' There are always exceptions, but fashion magazines are full of pictures of young women who look like adolescent boys, which makes me wonder who their target market is, the clergy?
|
|
It seems that women want men to look more like a woman, and women prefer the images of women that look more like men...
Let me defend that last part :) before you go ranting.
No, that's totally true. Models have been getting thinner and thinner, having more 'boyish' haircuts and outfits, and minimized breasts and butts, to make them look 'boyish.' There are always exceptions, but fashion magazines are full of pictures of young women who look like adolescent boys, which makes me wonder who their target market is, the clergy?
lol you are so right. I flip through an occasional women's magazine just to see what they are reading about so I can defend myself. And some of the models they have... I mean who wants someone that looks like they will break if you so much as touch them? And you can see their ribs and spine!?! Oh gad that is so not right and so not attractive.
|
|
I mean who wants someone that looks like they will break if you so much as touch them? And you can see their ribs and spine!?! Oh gad that is so not right and so not attractive.
Now, now, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or some PC crap like that. Apparently, the 'dying of a combination of heroin and HiV' look is really, really hot to some people.
Takes all kinds.
Then again, 70% of married Americans have an overweight spouse. One could reasonably conclude that the majority Americans are sexually attracted to fat people, based on this, if one had wanted to use the newsmedia practice of assigning random causation to unrelated statistics...
To heck with those skinny, waif-like, cocaine-addict-looking models! Size Zero is not an adult size, and for a very good reason. I prefer women who look like women, and not like an anatomy model for counting bones. While I´m at ranting, I prefer a cheesecake drawing like Seoni over a digitally remodeled photograph or movie all the time - with drawings, you know they are not realistic. And don´t get me started on all those "surgically enhanced" persons, why try to aim at standards set by those digital fakes, and fail of course, leading to all kinds of problems.
[/rant]
Stefan
|
|
To heck with those skinny, waif-like, cocaine-addict-looking models! Size Zero is not an adult size, and for a very good reason. I prefer women who look like women, and not like an anatomy model for counting bones. While I´m at ranting, I prefer a cheesecake drawing like Seoni over a digitally remodeled photograph or movie all the time - with drawings, you know they are not realistic. And don´t get me started on all those "surgically enhanced" persons, why try to aim at standards set by those digital fakes, and fail of course, leading to all kinds of problems.
[/rant]
Stefan
Here here!
Ya know I don't want to fondle a bag of silcone... if I wanted that I would just buy a blow up doll for crying out loud!
More REAL women, less fake ones! More NATURAL women, less fake ones!
More Women who WANT to be a WOMAN, less women who want to be BOYS!
OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH I get it now... penis envy... explains it all.
|
|
To heck with those skinny, waif-like, cocaine-addict-looking models! Size Zero is not an adult size, and for a very good reason. I prefer women who look like women, and not like an anatomy model for counting bones. While I´m at ranting, I prefer a cheesecake drawing like Seoni over a digitally remodeled photograph or movie all the time - with drawings, you know they are not realistic. And don´t get me started on all those "surgically enhanced" persons, why try to aim at standards set by those digital fakes, and fail of course, leading to all kinds of problems.
[/rant]
Stefan
Here here!
Ya know I don't want to fondle a bag of silcone... if I wanted that I would just buy a blow up doll for crying out loud!
More REAL women, less fake ones! More NATURAL women, less fake ones!
More Women who WANT to be a WOMAN, less women who want to be BOYS!OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH I get it now... penis envy... explains it all.
Isn't this supposed to be about who other than Seoni we'd rather see cheescake pictures of? when did this become the Dove: Campaign for real beauty, Which I coincidentally really liked.
|
|
and I don't know her name, but I would love to see some cheesecake for the drow lady from from the cover of endless night, preferably something not bondage or sado-masicism, I'm not into her because of the drow sillyness, just because she looks hot with that body and blue chicks are pretty cool.
Also you know, I would like to see some good cheescake pics with a more x-rated bent, I do like just nudes, but you know whatever...
|
Speaking of changes to male attractiveness...
Facial and body hair (especially chest hair) are secondary sexual characteristics... in the same rough category as breasts.
It is interesting that the current idea of male attractiveness is one that lacks male secondary sexual characteristics and embraces a more feminine appearance. Essentially emasculating men.
It seems that women want men to look more like a woman, and women prefer the images of women that look more like men...
Let me defend that last part :) before you go ranting.
There is a depiction in the media of women being thin, which has led to an unhealthy self image of many women resulting in many mental disorders. However, if one looked at the women who appear in those nasty awful dirty mens magazines they would find that men are attracted to more curvy women, not the ones depicted in womens magazines.
The natural conclusion is that women find those depictions os scrawny women to be attractive, since men do not.
And while speaking about those awful dirty mens magazines I'd like to point out that there is an age requirement for them while the so-called romance novels, many of which are FAR more pornographic than a Playboy, are freely available to any age girl.
What I conclude from this is that it has become sinful for men to have sexual desires but it okay for women to have them, as long as they feel they are inadequate and unworthy of those desires.
Our society is so messed...
Krome, you speak from the heart,and I agree about 95%...Except for the part about facial hair not being found attractive by the ladies. In conservative America, or any 'Upscale' portion of American society, sure, but not amongst the 'Hip' portion. Note: I do not wear facial hair, but in the younger 'Hipster/alternative/whatever/rocker crowd (Which is a pretty huge part of the under 30 demographic, at least with white Americans), every Tool has a beard.
I've never seen so many Wannabee Viking in all of my life, and pretty girls chasing after them. Not honest man-Beards, which are fine (I still don't like facial hair on myself, but I respect if you want it), but on the girly/emo-clothes-wearing/vinyl collecting/ bike riding set, the scruffy beard is the new Red Convertible.-Uriel
|
|
Ok, I know that this is going to sound really silly, but... I don't like Seoni because she has breast implants. Yes, yes, she is a piece of fantasy art, and not a real person, but I really do not like depictions of women with 'perfect playboy breasts'. As a few people mentioned above, can't we get some pictures with more natural looking women?
I also like hips on my girls (Are you listening Sean K. Reynolds? :D ).
As an aside, does anyone have a guess as to what her Bloodline is? Unless I am wrong (Which I may be), she predated the PFRPG, and only appears in 3.5 stats.
As well, while looking up Seoni on Google (To be 100% sure of which one she was), I found out that Seoni was a region of India. Funny, the things that you learn on these wacky computer-thingies...
-Uriel
Isn't this supposed to be about who other than Seoni we'd rather see cheescake pictures of? when did this become the Dove: Campaign for real beauty, Which I coincidentally really liked.
Because the two are interconnected. :)
|
|
While we're being politically incorrect about Seoni, may I ask why the lovely young Varisian lass, whose race is blatantly patterned on the Romany, is being depicted in fan art as having milky white skin? The young sorceress should have a more burnt sienna, or at least mocha, skin tone.
Brown is beautiful!
Because of the hidden fact that she is a vampire.
Not good if that became known mainstream :)
By Romany I assume you mean Roman, Latin in nature, which also had a nice brown tone. Only further north did you get the milky white. Where it is always cold and the sun does not shine as much. :)
Romany = Gypsy.
|
|
We gonna get a pair of 2010 paizo pin-up calendars?
Girls of Pathfinder
&
Men of Pathfinder?
Three actually.
Formless Evershifting Shoggoth of Pathfinder will appeal to that Hentai niche.
There will also be;
Forged like Flesh: Warforged Hotties of Eberron, for those mechanophiles.
The Complete Elf Calender will mostly have suggestive pictures of squirrels and trees. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Ok, I know that this is going to sound really silly, but... I don't like Seoni because she has breast implants. Yes, yes, she is a piece of fantasy art, and not a real person, but I really do not like depictions of women with 'perfect playboy breasts'. As a few people mentioned above, can't we get some pictures with more natural looking women?
I also like hips on my girls (Are you listening Sean K. Reynolds? :D ).
What, why am I being called out here?
Why are we only focusing on the women, here? There's plenty of room for scantily clad men in Golarion as well.
Wes, back me up here.