So...everyone likes sex. More or less. So why is anyone still surprised when it's used as a marketing tool? Oodles of studies have proven its effectiveness.
So why not just get over it already?
My wife picks out most of the fantasy art around our house and aside from about a gazillion dragons her other favorites are hot fantasy chicks. Especially by Royo. The picture she drew of her first elf character (AD&D) was a hot chick.
I think hot sexy art rocks. Whether it be hot chicks, dragons, hot guys, or beholders in swimsuits.
Bring it on!
Kudos to all the Paizo staffers. Consistenly great quality in all things including art.
This was a rant. Thank you for your time.
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I thought this was going to be about what is and is not acceptable in Golarion culture.
I support treant/dryad marriage by the way. Just throwing that out there.
Seriously though, I only get irked by fanservice when it becomes the main attraction or the only game in town for female representation. I like some fanservice, but I like practically attired and built female adventurers too. That is, when there are nothing but breast-plate bras and barely any prominent females in full, functional armor, it bugs me.
I don't see fanservice and genuinely tough looking women as mutually exclusive either(for the record, I really do prefer Amiri over Seoni), but there are enough who do that leads to painful amounts of Chickification sometimes). Those problems haven't been the case with Paizo though. They've struck a great balance thus far, and I really appreciate them for that.
That and I dig the art director's ban on pigtails.
I also agree with the two above posts. "Sex Sales" as the saying goes and it does so for a good reason. We are naturally attracted to things that we find appealing. This applies to the things that we buy as well. I also agree that the art team with the PFRPG have done a great job in balancing "what looks good" and "what will keep me in as close to one piece as possible". I've enjoyed everything that I've seen so far, and maybe one day they will have me add some of my artwork to their impressive gallery! ;-)
second note: Mikaze - dryad/treant marriage....that's freaky-yet-awesome, I love it!
Treants and dryads. That's a lot of wood. ;p
Talk about starting a fire.
Treants and dryads. That's a lot of wood. ;p
Talk about starting a fire.
Gah! Mental images abound. "Mommy, where do flowers come from?" There are just some things we shouldn't know!
....I have mentally gone down a path that is long and dark ... time to call my therapist again. :-D
How 'bout earth elementals? Rock 'n roll!
How 'bout earth elementals? Rock 'n roll!
I thought elementals were into that whole alternative planar lifestyles thing....?
Don't waste time on water elementals. They're a bunch of wet behind the ears novices.
But talk about mixing bodily fluids.
Please don't flag me.
But...but...I like to push the pram a lot.
So...how 'bout them drow dominatrices? Talk about whipped.
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So...how 'bout them drow dominatrices? Talk about whipped.
Ah yes, D&D, the game that brought us a society where the women ruthlessly dominate the men, and where the artwork occasionally portrays women whipping (with terribly phallic snake-headed whips, even), beating or stabbing men! It's like fantasy-genre gender subversion.
I blame Erol Otus for that picture in the 1st edition Dieties & Demigods of a half-clothed drow priestess sacrificing a nude human (or possibly elven) male. Such terrible exploitation of the menfolk! Look how naked he was! I call Misandry! Also Shenanigans! And the Justice League! Superman will put a stop to this wrongdoing!
Assuming Bondage Woman doesn't have him all tied up in the lasso of truth again...
But...but...I like to push the pram a lot.
Wait...Set's set up this joke before...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't mind a little cheesecake in my fantasy. Women have the advantage over men in that they don't have those dangly bits. (I like my dangly bit, don't need to look at anyone else's)
That said, I do wonder how open minded people are in Golarion, I'd think Absalom is more diverse than, say, Cheliax.
I also agree with the two above posts. "Sex Sales" as the saying goes and it does so for a good reason.
I wouldn't always say sex always sells. I intentionally avoid alot of books/products that I feel relies too much on fanservice in order to be viable.
Truthfully, Paizo don't need gratuitous fanservice to sell their products, so I'd much rather they didn't.
Don't waste time on water elementals. They're a bunch of wet behind the ears novices.Yes, but they never complain about having to sleep in the wet spot.
ROFL!
I can see Cheliax being very prude, proper, and sexually repressed in public and no holds barred behind closed doors. I can see anit-immorality inquisitions breaking down doors of those out of favor while the nobles are throwing orgies on the other end of town.
Lawful Evil: have your cake and eat it too. In private.
What is this "fanservice" crap everyone keeps throwing out there? Bleah...makes me feel like I'm being solicited or pandered to. I think such a terminology as applied to Paizo is doing them a grave diservice.
So why don't we just dispense with the term?
Fire elementals may be hot, but air elementals both blow and...
and earth elementals get down and dirty
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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What is this "fanservice" crap everyone keeps throwing out there? Bleah...makes me feel like I'm being solicited or pandered to. I think such a terminology as applied to Paizo is doing them a grave diservice.
So why don't we just dispense with the term?
I've never heard of it before this week. Where does it come from?
second note: Mikaze - dryad/treant marriage....that's freaky-yet-awesome, I love it!
Friend, everyone knows that it's dryad/satyr. Why do you think no one ever sees any female satyrs?
I always figured that treants just grew from seeds, like trees.
What is this "fanservice" crap everyone keeps throwing out there? Bleah...makes me feel like I'm being solicited or pandered to. I think such a terminology as applied to Paizo is doing them a grave diservice.
So why don't we just dispense with the term?
I have nothing against Fanservice , but I like good writing where everything flows from something else. It's kind of like a spice. To quote TV Tropes: "While some fanservice can increase the appeal of a show, too much fanservice can become very distracting and in some cases, put viewers off completely."
With regard to Paizo, I haven't had as much time studying their products as I would like, but I have to comment about the character Seoni, the sorceress in the tight red outfit who is always twisted in some improbable pose. I can only conclude that the Twisted Sorcerer prestige class is available in Golarion, and Seoni is practicing to qualify.
I actually like the Twisted Sorcerer PrC concept. I wrote up a class description during lunch one day, and when I get a chance I'll have to type it up. There is even precedent in literature: one of the characters in the Oz books is The Twisted Wizard, who actually has to sit down in specially made chairs.
second note: Mikaze - dryad/treant marriage....that's freaky-yet-awesome, I love it!Friend, everyone knows that it's dryad/satyr. Why do you think no one ever sees any female satyrs?
I always figured that treants just grew from seeds, like trees.
I've seen pictures of female satyrs. So somebody must have seen them.
I've also heard of male dryads, and in my homebrew, the dryads in the Kosa Plains are male.
I say if a dryad wants to marry a treant instead of a satyr, why not let her, or him?
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So...everyone likes sex. More or less. So why is anyone still surprised when it's used as a marketing tool? Oodles of studies have proven its effectiveness.
So why not just get over it already?
Two reasons:
1. A shift in societal standards for what is acceptable for people under the age of consent, particularly pre-teens, to be view, combined with the constant perception of D&D as primarily a game for 9-14 year olds.
2. Hentai, or (a)moral equivalent thereof.
For the first, I read the John Carter books when I was 10. Nowadays I need to check with parents before recommending those books to kids because everyone runs around dressed only in a fighting harness and jewelry.
For the second, ick, and everyone else's particular limit on ick. Go too far and you lose customers, simple as that.
When it's presented in a mature way that's tasteful then I've got no problem with it.
I just have bad memories of some of Mongoose quintessential books (at least the 3.0 ones), which contained badly drawn half naked chicks.
After awhile it's difficult to take any of the book seriously, plus of course I had a player that liked to look though the books and drool (which was kind of sad really seeing that he about 32 and was acting like an 8 year old).
Paizo has done a great job with both art and content on this matter.
So...everyone likes sex. More or less. So why is anyone still surprised when it's used as a marketing tool? Oodles of studies have proven its effectiveness.
So why not just get over it already?
I've been perplexed by this thread from the beginning. Just what are we supposed to "get over"? Is anybody complaining about the attire of the woman pictured on the Fortress of the Stone Giants cover? Hey! I just bought that one because of the stone giants!
My wife picks out most of the fantasy art around our house and aside from about a gazillion dragons her other favorites are hot fantasy chicks. Especially by Royo. The picture she drew of her first elf character (AD&D) was a hot chick.
The last time I've heard of fantasy art being a problem was once when Dragon was published with a cover showing an almost naked guy.
I think hot sexy art rocks. Whether it be hot chicks, dragons, hot guys, or beholders in swimsuits.Bring it on!
Um, I think we can leave out the beholders in swimsuits. They just would not fit in in Golarion. And while we're at it, let's not have a line of designer swimwear for dragons, either.
I guess one thing I have against gratuitous babe art is that it is hardly ever connected to anything other than the fan-boys' libido. The Macho Women with Guns setting is an exception. If you're going to have a bikini-clad elf chick, make it a well-drawn bikini-clad elf chick, and make it mean something.
I have to agree that there is nothing in Paizo art, one way or another, for me to "get over". Not that I have ever had a problem with anybody's artwork, except the no-talent hacks that DC Comics brings on to draw Superman or Legion of Super-Heroes just as the storyline starts to get interesting.
Kudos to all the Paizo staffers. Consistenly great quality in all things including art.This was a rant. Thank you for your time.
So what were you ranting about? I am perplexed.
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Some guy in a blog, declaring that Paizo is sexist, and most probably, racist.
Despite the fact that they have consistently stood up for, and taken unnecessary flak for, having an equal male/female split of iconics, openly lesbian/gay NPCs portrayed as normal, unremarkable members of the community, and having sympathetic portrayals of a wide variety of races and cultures in their products.
Some guy in a blog, declaring that Paizo is sexist, and most probably, racist.
Despite the fact that they have consistently stood up for, and taken unnecessary flak for, having an equal male/female split of iconics, openly lesbian/gay NPCs portrayed as normal, unremarkable members of the community, and having sympathetic portrayals of a wide variety of races and cultures in their products.
Okay, I found the Seoni is Santa thread and did not realize that that was what this thread was talking about.
I went through the email and dug up the Seoni is Santa picture. It's cute. Obviously, Seoni is the sexy babe of the Pathfinder iconics. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, as long as not every woman is portrayed that way.
The one thing about that picture that I think could be regarded as sexist is the depiction of her breasts. This is perhaps a touchy subject to bring up, but do they have plastic surgeons in Golarion? Who decided that breasts should look like that in the first place? Is there some kind of magic spell that can be applied in leui of saline implants? What are the cultural effects of the availability of such enhancements?
Not that I am complaining about anything. I just like to contemplate world-building issues. And memes. I definitely like memes.
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That is what this is about?
Bleah.
Then I default to my first point.
The picture is fun, but it has a definite "leer at this" content. I expect some parents would be put out to one degree or other seeing this in their child's inbox. Of course said parent is likely also egregiously oblivious not to realize what is in other Paizo products, but it is at the fringes of possible that said child (early teen most likely) kept those books safely out of sight then made an "oopsie" and showed the coupon to said parent in an effort to get more Paizo loot.
I rate it an "arched" eyebrow, but not particularly outrageous compared to what has come before.
That picture wasn't even as bad as Sofie over at Reaper.
Maybe I'm just jaded, but I barely batted an eyelash at the picture in the e-mail.
That picture wasn't even as bad as Sofie over at Reaper.
Maybe I'm just jaded, but I barely batted an eyelash at the picture in the e-mail.
I am just disappointed that all the Good spam images go to my work account, where I have to delete it right away, instead of to my home account, where I can at least use them for drawing practice.
Seoni went to my home account, and she has been practiced upon.
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That is what this is about?
Bleah.
Then I default to my first point.
The picture is fun, but it has a definite "leer at this" content. I expect some parents would be put out to one degree or other seeing this in their child's inbox. Of course said parent is likely also egregiously oblivious not to realize what is in other Paizo products, but it is at the fringes of possible that said child (early teen most likely) kept those books safely out of sight then made an "oopsie" and showed the coupon to said parent in an effort to get more Paizo loot.I rate it an "arched" eyebrow, but not particularly outrageous compared to what has come before.
Well I suppose RED SONJA would have sold to a whole different crowd if she had been an fat ugly chick with teeth sharpened to points on account of how her barbarian tribe lives good on human flesh and stained her matted dreadlocks with the blood of babies.
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There are always people who will find reasons to get upset about this stuff. Sometims it is religious and sometimes it is "Think of the children", sometimes it's feminist, and sometimes.... And so on. I think Sam Weiss has hit the nail squarely on the head above. It is all eye of the beholder stuff to me, and there are obviously no hard and fast rules about what is a pretty picture and what is sexist and exploitative. If I though Paizo was peddling porn to under-age kids, I would probably have a problem, but it isn't, so I don't.
I always find it vaguely amusing how people get wound up by boobies in the artwork when most of the game involves hacking people to death - somehow that never sets off the Offense-o-meter. After all, sex (and liking boobies) is kind of natural - sadomasochistic religious rites, on the other hand, are somewhat off-beam for most of us. The loving depiction of Zon-Kuthon by Paizo is surely much more of an issue than Seoni's dress and cleavage (but that is, and probably has been, the subject of another thread) and even that is, I dunno, rating 12 (per the UK film ratings, may only be seen by children aged 12 and over).
(I'm not suggesting that the depiction of Zon-Kuthon is a problem, mind - just pointing out the slight absurdity of what does, and what doesn't, set off the fulminations of the cyber-sex patrol.)
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There are always people who will find reasons to get upset about this stuff. Sometims it is religious and sometimes it is "Think of the children", sometimes it's feminist, and sometimes.... And so on. I think Sam Weiss has hit the nail squarely on the head above. It is all eye of the beholder stuff to me, and there are obviously no hard and fast rules about what is a pretty picture and what is sexist and exploitative. If I though Paizo was peddling porn to under-age kids, I would probably have a problem, but it isn't, so I don't.
I always find it vaguely amusing how people get wound up by boobies in the artwork when most of the game involves hacking people to death - somehow that never sets off the Offense-o-meter. After all, sex (and liking boobies) is kind of natural - sadomasochistic religious rites, on the other hand, are somewhat off-beam for most of us. The loving depiction of Zon-Kuthon by Paizo is surely much more of an issue than Seoni's dress and cleavage (but that is, and probably has been, the subject of another thread) and even that is, I dunno, rating 12 (per the UK film ratings, may only be seen by children aged 12 and over).
(I'm not suggesting that the depiction of Zon-Kuthon is a problem, mind - just pointing out the slight absurdity of what does, and what doesn't, set off the fulminations of the cyber-sex patrol.)
Whether this amounts to peddling Kiddie-porn or catering to the Paedophile market is never going to be down to the likes of you, Aubrey. In the end it comes down to the concept of the Commonwealth. If one finds it offensive and suspect then that is enough to condemn it.
But then again, if we were to raise the issue of outlawing the works of Aristotle for being a kiddie fiddler and start burning his books...and we would be called a Nazi.
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Consider this character: Kaiya a plague elf (Half elf-Half Human) is a 12 year old Paladin of Erastil. The Farmers of this Lawful Neutral village keep her in a cage hanging from the Tavern rafters because as a first level Paladin she has the ability to detect evil. The only reason they keep her is because she is a Paladin of the Immortal of Farmers. Normally Plague elves (1/2 elves) get exterminated because they are a disease transfer risk between human and elf.
So consider the art and inclusion in story and game of such a character. Is there a dark and dangerous aspect to the RPG by including such victims of neutrality, rather than evil? History is ripe with something far darker than fantasy. It is rancid with the truth. Popes, Kings, and Presidents molested and destroyed even babies. Perhaps in the end our Moral high ground is an illusion and lie designed to protect us from the truth. Else we would be forced to turn on each other with daggers until we were alone with those who are acceptable to our Morality.
As an educated american male with a healthy "adult" appetite, I can say that I find this sort of conversation fascinating. I wonder what sort of values I will end up trying to teach to my soon-to-arrive child, and how much of their opinions will actually be due to me, rather than the myriad of other influences.
I love the female form (and on an artistic level, the male form. I'd get in line to touch David Boreanaz), and don't mind seeing it displayed. As an avid anime/manga fan, and a copius delver in to the darker places of the internet, I've seen things that make Zon-Kuthon look absolutely tepid. Some of you will nod, thinking you know what I'm talking about. You are wrong. Some others will only look at me as if I haven't spoken; you are the ones who know what I know.
Heh, once again, its 5:30 AM, and I'm posting without really having a reason why. Maybe I just wanted to log this new alias in, and this seemed like the best thread to do it in. Which is doubly ironic, considering the nature of the source of this name.
A cookie to whoever gets the reference of the name. Here's two hints: A metamagic feat that raises the level by two, and an artist who did some work on the Gen13 comic.
Also, to get this back on track, I think you misinterpreted a smidge Yellowdingo; Aubrey was referring to the unlikely event of Paizo making pornographic material available to under-age youths, not making pornographic material OF them.
Regarding your second post, I think that by most "classic" interpretations of D&D alignments, that isn't a Lawful Neutral town, its Lawful Evil, due to the element of slavery. While the rationalization of it could go on for days, the classic alignment systems puts slavery very firmly in the evil category. If the scenario were amended to a "term of service" concept, it might be different. But this is also colored by my own perceptions, so ymmv. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
What i have a hard time grasping here is how so many forum regulars can't understand the purposed of simple analysis .
There's no need to get overly defensive because some one wants to critically examine your favorite iconic characters.
Lighten up a bit every one, you might learn something.
I suggest reading "the second sex" or "the history of sexuality" to get a better grasp on what the purpose of a review of sexuality is.
if reading two large texts is a bit much, i'll leave you with two links
http://montecook.livejournal.com/150303.html
Monte Cook's post on race and gender in gaming
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/05/05/fantasy-and-science-fictio n-bingo-no-racism-in-fiction-edition/
Alas a blog's scifi/fantasy bingo, racism addition.
if any of your arguments can be found on that bingo sheet but in the context of sexuality, you might want to re think your point.
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Whether this amounts to peddling Kiddie-porn or catering to the Paedophile market is never going to be down to the likes of you, Aubrey. In the end it comes down to the concept of the Commonwealth. If one finds it offensive and suspect then that is enough to condemn it.
But then again, if we were to raise the issue of outlawing the works of Aristotle for being a kiddie fiddler and start burning his books...and we would be called a Nazi.
Dingo, what exactly is your point? Do you even have one? I think I pointed out that this is an eye of the beholder thing. But I disagree that if a single individual finds something offensive, then it should be condemned as "offensive" generally. As you then go on to point out yourself.