Obviously, Paizo leaves a lot of interpretation in the artist's hands. This is a good thing. Two different artists give us two different views of a character.
That said...I wish Paizo would use less of the artists who are obviously strongly influenced by comics and their art style. Comics tend to grossly emphasize attribute like boobs and biceps and whatnot and tend to turn characters into caricatures.
More realistic art is better than cartoony art. In my not so humble opinion. In fact, humble my ass. It's just my opinion.
Some people have called Wayne Reynolds' art "comic booky." If that's true, then I suppose I like comic book art an AWFUL lot.
Realistic art is still art; and being art, one person's realistic art is another person's garbage. Without providing specific examples and naming specific artists whose styles you consider to be realistic... this kind of feedback isn't really useful...
Ben Wooten, Warren Mahy, Eva Weiderman, Michael Komarck...great realistic art. More a classical painting style.
I go back and forth about WAR. The man's art is great but the "comic" exaggeration of attributes sometimes is worse than others. His pictures of the iconics are awesome.
Some of the art back in the Seeds of Sehan trilogy crossed the line into cartoony. Don't remember the artists offhand. I do remember how glossy Tyralandi's boobs were. Just never got that impression about her from your journal. I don't imagine the artists ever read that though...
I know I don't speak for everyone. But I will tell you what I do and don't like. That's feedback and that's a part of what these boards are for.
And for the record: Paizo's quality of art just gets better and better. Every new product is a cut above its predecessors.
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This forum has once again caused someone to bring up the topic of my personal outrage: "realism".
This is a game where people are throwing freaking lightning bolts and causing big damned fireballs to appear from nowhere, and they want to quibble about how realistic someone's proportions seem to be while doing these unrealistic things?
*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*
Don't worry about realism, worry about believability within the context of the game world. Within this game world, if Seoni can so all this crazy magical stuff, why can't she have a bust that rivals Barbie dolls?
I'd be more willing to believe in Golarian that Seoni is as she appears in these pictures than I would if I saw a picture of an 80-foot tall mecha piloted by a toddler doing battle with the tarrasque(but I do admit, that would be a cool picture).
Stop with all the realism!%#*
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Ben Wooten, Warren Mahy, Eva Widermann, Michael Komarck...great realistic art. More a classical painting style.
I have said this Before..
Eva Widermann, Great Artist, Nice person, easy to talk to, And wow... is she good looking.. ;-)
Maybe we should just use The Order of the Stick artist. It's very hard to make them sexified.
You say Haley's not a smoking hottie? I can't read that comic without taking a brisk run in the woods and take a cold shower afterwards. And read number 35. Mwaaaaaaa!
;-P
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Nah that's not what I mean at all. It just means I'm going to look at our art orders and see if there's anything irrelevantly gratuitous that could be changed. Priestess of Calistria trying to seduce someone = relevant sexiness. Battle scene with blood and gore that happens to have a bosom shot of Seoni = irrelevant sexiness.
God I hate posting to these things. They get out of hand and it's difficult for anyone on either side to not be offended, and yet, I feel some things could be said. Don't let yourself be completely censored here. A little cheesecake never hurt anyone. It's excess or exclusive cheesecake that tends to cause these kinds of feelings. Next christmas, maybe include the entire cast or more than just a sexpotted version of Seoni in your christmas cards. It's not a lot to ask and women do play these game. I would venture, even, that generally speaking, Pathfinder tends to be more approachable and playable than say, 4th edition for women just getting started. The entire game isn't the rules yet and I'm pleased by that personally. So, I would say that while you are free to do whatever you guys want there, it's nice for female gamers to feel that they are welcome and sex-pot Seoni tends to take away from that feeling.
Ultimately, once in awhile, it's not going to do any damage, but I think all the women would appreciate being remembered in the christmas cards, etc, wether that's a little cheesecake for us or something a little less sexually charged.
By and large, I've been extremely happy with the art direction for paizo. Even Seoni, has a place. It's not like these women don't exist, even in places that proper attire would likely be more reasonable. But she's obviously a Mary Sue and her being such a focus, and that's the rub, is a bit off-putting for many women and more so for those that are just getting into these type of games(the rest of us are kinda used to it even if we don't particularly care for it). But by and large, the portfolio of characters in the paizo iconics is amazing for both men and women and you should keep up the really amazing work your team is doing there.
On the other hand, in Jared Diamond's book _The Third Chimpanzee_, he describes something called "stotting", in which an animal will do something that seems counterproductive, in order to prove that he really, really, excells at something (such as strength or running). This is why some species of birds evolve such heavy tails to impress the ladies -- if a bird can carry that much around, he must be strong.
Hmm, yes, I can see that would be a part of appeal of eg. swashbuckling, where the point is not just to defeat the enemy but look good doing it and also follow some rules of honour. The code of honour in general would probably fall under this.
This would also apply to those Celtic warriors going to battle naked: wearing armor was "cowardly", and I guess the opponents were also a bit demoralized with this..."I will fight blindfolded with my left arm, to make this a fair fight".And I could see that some adventurers might look for a potential edge from unusual attire, either appearing so tough they don't have to care about efficiency, or luring the opponents to believe they are less dangerous than they are. But this would obviously work only against humanoids, and would probably be rare (or maybe a local cultural phenomenon, so an army of jungle babe sorceresses a la Iskandria would be reasonably acceptable...)
My friend Sean Reynolds is a brilliant art director.
And by Sean Reynolds, he means Sean Glenn. Sean Reynolds is that crazy designer who keeps drawing cartoony art in people's Ghostwalk books.
Creative Director
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And by Sean Reynolds, he means Sean Glenn. Sean Reynolds is that crazy designer who keeps drawing cartoony art in people's Ghostwalk books.
My friend Sean Reynolds is a brilliant art director.
Correct. I fixed the error. Sean (Reynolds) does indeed do neat drawings in Ghostwalk books, though! But it's Sean (Glenn) who my post upstream was supposed to be about.
This forum has once again caused someone to bring up the topic of my personal outrage: "realism".
This is a game where people are throwing freaking lightning bolts and causing big damned fireballs to appear from nowhere, and they want to quibble about how realistic someone's proportions seem to be while doing these unrealistic things?
*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*STAB!*
Don't worry about realism, worry about believability within the context of the game world. Within this game world, if Seoni can so all this crazy magical stuff, why can't she have a bust that rivals Barbie dolls?
I guess I am kind of a functionalist. A warrior with biceps the size of Rhode Island is portraying an over-the-top exaggated feature that is applicable to the world of physical combat.
There have been cultures that have felt that they can improve on the woman's natural body. The Chinese once practiced foot binding. There is a tribe in indochina where womens' necks are stretched with copper rings. The Mayans used to flatten the skulls of their children to make them more attractive. They do some really bizarre things in Africa.
On the other hand, just as the hair styles and clothing in the Star Trek series echoed the styles of the 1960s, I suppose fantasy artwork will naturally echo what is felt to be attractive in the culture in which the artist lives.
But that does not stop me from thinking "Hmmmm, I wonder what the functional explanation for this phenomenon is....."
I have said this Before..Eva Widermann, Great Artist, Nice person, easy to talk to, And wow... is she good looking.. ;-)
Seconded. I did not meet her in person yet, but I love her art. And judging from the photographs I´ve seen from her, she is indeed good looking. What´s more, she´s german.
Stefan
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I guess I am kind of a functionalist. A warrior with biceps the size of Rhode Island is portraying an over-the-top exaggated feature that is applicable to the world of physical combat.
There have been cultures that have felt that they can improve on the woman's natural body. The Chinese once practiced foot binding. There is a tribe in indochina where womens' necks are stretched with copper rings. The Mayans used to flatten the skulls of their children to make them more attractive. They do some really bizarre things in Africa.
On the other hand, just as the hair styles and clothing in the Star Trek series echoed the styles of the 1960s, I suppose fantasy artwork will naturally echo what is felt to be attractive in the culture in which the artist lives.
But that does not stop me from thinking "Hmmmm, I wonder what the functional explanation for this phenomenon is....."
Exactly my point, Functionality is like Believability's kissing cousin. The former asks how something can work within a setting where the latter asks why. Realism on the other hand tries to enforce the rules of our reality upon a setting that doesn't necessarily follow all of them.
For example, both Golarion and our world allow gravity to pull things towards the ground, but where our world's reason for it centrifugal force, that may not be so for a fictional world. It could very well be because the gods decided that is how they want things to function. In other words, the end result is the same, but the reasoning behind it is not.
Therefore, trying to force our realism on a world which already opperates by different rules is pointless.
Now, switching tracks: Whether or not Seoni's breasts are naturally large, or she happens to be wearing a Ring of DD Endowment, doesn't matter. Both are possible and believable within the game world, and that is what matters.
What is this "Seoni as Santa" pic which you're all talking about?
Confused GRU
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I have said this Before..Eva Widermann, Great Artist, Nice person, easy to talk to, And wow... is she good looking.. ;-)
Seconded. I did not meet her in person yet, but I love her art. And judging from the photographs I´ve seen from her, she is indeed good looking. What´s more, she´s german.
Stefan
I met her at GenCon UK, She hung out with us and the Paizo Crew at the Bar after the Convention events during the day. Her and Wayne Reynolds
Correct. I fixed the error. Sean (Reynolds) does indeed do neat drawings in Ghostwalk books, though! But it's Sean (Glenn) who my post upstream was supposed to be about.
I was confused there. It's probably your profusion of Seans around. There's Reynolds the designer, Glenn the Art guy, and Connery who poses as a wizard.
But, argh! What IS this "Seoni as Santa" pic, which you're all talking about?
please- please, oh please tell me!
Snivelling Gru
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My Celtic ancestors fought skyclad (naked) with their wedding tackle on display to terrify and show their contempt of their enemies.
Even more terrifying were the Celtic women who stood up the back bare-breasted, wild hired, screaming and urging their men on to kill.
The Romans were scared of the Celtic warriors but the bare-breasted women terrified them. Especially when they thought that their husbands were not fighting hard enough and entered the battle to take a few heads of their own.
You forgot the lime and urine in the hair as well... You have to fear a warrior who will bleach his hair in that manner...
Besides, what do you mean your ancestors... Just last week, at the pub, I saw you...
Now, switching tracks: Whether or not Seoni's breasts are naturally large, or she happens to be wearing a Ring of DD Endowment, doesn't matter. Both are possible and believable within the game world, and that is what matters.
1} I agree.
2} The whole Seoni is totally unreal thing totally bugs me, not because I like to stand up for fictional characters but because I know a woman who is almost identical in shape to her, though I don't know Seoni's height, and this woman has coppery hair, no tattoos, some piercings. But the point stands, thats naturally her shape, there may be an argument for seoni having unnatural bouyancy, but that's a maybe exotic use of prestidigitation. If modern can use tape, why wouldnt a mage use a cantrip? Also, the 0-level pseudo bra has immediate combat benefits, i.e. sports bra but vastly superior.
3) I'm not expressing an opinion on the sexism of the matter, nor anything to do with exploitation. But I know, personally someone who looks like this, and saying Seoni has a pornstar, surgically rendered body is irritating to me on behalf of her.
People are different, maybe not many people have Seoni's body shape, or Sajan's for that matter, but some do, in reality, as a fact. And hey aren't PC's supposed to stand up for and be part of the minorities? Pretty woman can be a minority, oh and as a final note, all levels of cleavage and 'what's too much' aside, a woman with large breasts is supposed to show some cleavage according to the dictates of simple fashion knowledge, regardless of her size and shape. Covering it up makes you look bulky and much heavier and chunkier in the chest area that you actually are.
Whatever else though, this was a rant to protect at least the Wayne Reynolds image of Seoni, her physical shape, whom I based this argument off.
They also put jalapeno peppers on EVERYTHING.
Just wait until you come across the wide spread usage of green chili on everything in the southwest - like pizza ... O.o
I'd totally hit that. :p
Thanks for the e-card, and the discount too guys. Cheers to y'all!
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2} The whole Seoni is totally unreal thing totally bugs me, not because I like to stand up for fictional characters but because I know a woman who is almost identical in shape to her, though I don't know Seoni's height, and this woman has coppery hair, no tattoos, some piercings. But the point stands, thats naturally her shape, there may be an argument for seoni having unnatural bouyancy, but that's a maybe exotic use of prestidigitation. If modern can use tape, why wouldnt a mage use a cantrip? Also, the 0-level pseudo bra has immediate combat benefits, i.e. sports bra but vastly superior.
Really? Wow, I always figured Seoni's torso was way too teeny to be plausable for her to support breasts naturally that large. One of my close friends has a similar chest size to her (probably a fair few sizes larger in fact), but she's a slightly heavier build with considerably wider shoulders, and even so she has some relatively serious back problems that are only going to get worse as she gets older (if her very similarly built mother is anything to go by). I'd agree with that exotic use of an extended prestidigitation, having seen all the fun she has trying to get bras that support enough for Taekwondo sessions, let alone adventuring all day...
Why is this still being talked about?
But, argh! What IS this "Seoni as Santa" pic, which you're all talking about?
please- please, oh please tell me!
Snivelling Gru
We sent out a holiday coupon to (I think) everybody with an account for our website, and there was a picture of Seoni dressed as Santa on it. A couple of people decided it was cheesecake, and moreover, decided that they don't LIKE cheesecake, and five bajillion posts later we're all still talking about the value of cheesecake at a philosophical level. : P Depending on who you listen to, we're destroying the world by giving people unreasonable body expectations, peddling smut to those who enjoy it, or producing a fun and well-art-directed series of game books. To which I say:
1. 'Cause fantasy games are obviously the place to go to get real-world expectations for yourself.
2. Trust me, when I peddle smut, you *know* it's smut.
3. Hey - thanks, folks! :)
...and that about brings us up to today!
Why is this still being talked about?
Because we're geeks and obsessing about small immaterial details is what we do best, especially when its involving an iconic character (and a GREAT company) that many have come to recognize and love
You forgot the lime and urine in the hair as well... You have to fear a warrior who will bleach his hair in that manner...Besides, what do you mean your ancestors... Just last week, at the pub, I saw you...
I prefer lemon and lime bitters it tastes better but it does make your hair sticky.
Well they were playing Eagle Rock and everybody "nudes up" for that song.
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Chief Technical Officer
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A couple of people decided it was cheesecake, and moreover, decided that they don't LIKE cheesecake...
Clearly they haven't tried White Chocolate Raspberry Truffle.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I still havn't gotten one and I don't even have a spam filter for it to be hiding behind :(
We sent out a holiday coupon to (I think) everybody with an account for our website, and there was a picture of Seoni dressed as Santa on it.
We did send it to everybody—honest!
You can get yourself a copy here.
For example, both Golarion and our world allow gravity to pull things towards the ground, but where our world's reason for it centrifugal force, that may not be so for a fictional world.
Centrifugal "force" in no way causes gravity, nor is it an effect thereof.
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We did send it to everybody—honest!
You can get yourself a copy here.
Thanks, The pic in the store blog was really small and I'm trying to figure out what it would take to print out a 'random cool art' B&W off the wall calender for myself for 2010... So, I'm collecting art throughout the year for that project.... playing with laser printers is fun!
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For example, both Golarion and our world allow gravity to pull things towards the ground, but where our world's reason for it centrifugal force, that may not be so for a fictional world.Centrifugal "force" in no way causes gravity, nor is it an effect thereof.
And, as suggested by your scare quotes, is not actually any sort of force at all.
And, as suggested by your scare quotes, is not actually any sort of force at all.
Scare quotes? (Not familiar with that term.)
While I'm on the questioning, what's Seoni's penalty to Perform(Dance) for having two of the same feet?
And... is she a master of some sort of special kung-fu because of them?
Paizo has done many things for us the people, reimagined and awesomeisized goblins and ogres, created the greatest of adventures and an amazing world to place them, provided consistantely amazing customer service and attention to fans.
And now, made me hungry and returned the term cheesecake to its true and alighty meaning!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Paizo Bellevue, Washington wgah'nagl fhtagn!
And, as suggested by your scare quotes, is not actually any sort of force at all.Scare quotes? (Not familiar with that term.)
While I'm on the questioning, what's Seoni's penalty to Perform(Dance) for having two of the same feet?
And... is she a master of some sort of special kung-fu because of them?
Okay, the Seoni breast issue has been explained. If she was born with exotically large breasts, she might want to invest in some magical support to keep them in place. The only question is whether cosmetic magical surgery is widely available to Varisians.
As for the two right feet, I've said before that that was just an unfortunate mishap from getting her foot caught in a dimensional rift on her way to pose for the Christmas card. She was able to fix it as soon as she get her spells refreshed for the day and was able to stick her foot back into the astral plan to restore it.
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And, as suggested by your scare quotes, is not actually any sort of force at all.For example, both Golarion and our world allow gravity to pull things towards the ground, but where our world's reason for it centrifugal force, that may not be so for a fictional world.Centrifugal "force" in no way causes gravity, nor is it an effect thereof.
Okay, MASS. I'm sorry. I've been posting here for a year, and I guess I'm still used to speaking in layterms which while innacurate, get the general concept across to non-geeks.
You should have seen me trying to explain a Faraday Cage to my coworkers as the reason why many of the rooms in our hotel are virtually inaccessible to our wireless network(although, to be fair, those rooms in question are like incomplete Faraday Cages).
1. 'Cause fantasy games are obviously the place to go to get real-world expectations for yourself.
Well, they are part of the information stream we are being bombarded with and unless you are putting only shoggoths and like in the pics, they do give signals related to gender roles in our society. One might argue that fantasy art is even more subversive than "real" pictures, as it is often strongly exaggerated and idealised, "this is what you should want to be" is a subtext when you present iconic characters performing heroic deeds...being a powerful sorceress has not "liberated" Seoni from being defined by male perception so it must be ok then, one IS supposed to be defined by male perception.
For the record, I am fine with occasional cheesecake and pinup pics, I am just pointing some of the philosophical issues behind for everyone's conversation. And I still consider it great that we can have long conversations in reasonably civilized manner in these boards...
But, argh! What IS this "Seoni as Santa" pic, which you're all talking about?
please- please, oh please tell me!
Snivelling GruWe sent out a holiday coupon to (I think) everybody with an account for our website, and there was a picture of Seoni dressed as Santa on it. A couple of people decided it was cheesecake, and moreover, decided that they don't LIKE cheesecake, and five bajillion posts later we're all still talking about the value of cheesecake at a philosophical level. : P Depending on who you listen to, we're destroying the world by giving people unreasonable body expectations, peddling smut to those who enjoy it, or producing a fun and well-art-directed series of game books. To which I say:
1. 'Cause fantasy games are obviously the place to go to get real-world expectations for yourself.
2. Trust me, when I peddle smut, you *know* it's smut.
3. Hey - thanks, folks! :)...and that about brings us up to today!
Thank you, James,
this is all very.... strange.GRU
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I have said this Before..Eva Widermann, Great Artist, Nice person, easy to talk to, And wow... is she good looking.. ;-)
Seconded. I did not meet her in person yet, but I love her art. And judging from the photographs I´ve seen from her, she is indeed good looking. What´s more, she´s german.
Stefan
The first time I saw her (at Gencon UK) I thought "gosh!", everytime after that that I saw her I thought "is Erik Mona *always* talking to her?"
Re Seoni as Santa -- I was gravely offended, mainly by the fact that it wasn't Kyra. This ongoing Kyra-hatred must stop! No more Seoni and silly-long-eared-elf-girl (who's name I can never remember how to spell). Let's have some gratuitous clericy goodness!
I for one would like to see some fiction starring Seoni and the other iconics.
Actually getting to know her might diffuse a lot of the criticism that she's just being used as a Page 3 Girl.
Because we're geeks and obsessing about small immaterial details
Excuse me? We obsess about details, both small and large, material AND immaterial.
You forgot the lime and urine in the hair as well... You have to fear a warrior who will bleach his hair in that manner...
I prefer the blood-instead-of-hair-gel thing, really. Accept no substitute!
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...being a powerful sorceress has not "liberated" Seoni from being defined by male perception so it must be ok then, one IS supposed to be defined by male perception.
Question: How are Eva Widerman's illustrations of Shelyn, Calistria, the Thrall of Malcanthet or her Pirate Chick different from Seoni? Especially with regards to your statement of the latter being defined by male perception?
...being a powerful sorceress has not "liberated" Seoni from being defined by male perception so it must be ok then, one IS supposed to be defined by male perception.Question: How are Eva Widerman's illustrations of Shelyn, Calistria, the Thrall of Malcanthet or her Pirate Chick different from Seoni? Especially with regards to your statement of the latter being defined by male perception?
Don't forget This One!!!
Why is this still being talked about?Because: THIS...IS...TAH...INTERNETS!
Seriously though, I didn't particularly care for the illustration. It isn't my cup of tea (I would have preferred a cool snow-golem fight) but I closed the e-mail and moved on.
<sings>
There's NO golems like SNOW golems there's NO golems I KNOW!</sings>
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Why is this still being talked about?Because: THIS...IS...TAH...INTERNETS!
Seriously though, I didn't particularly care for the illustration. It isn't my cup of tea (I would have preferred a cool snow-golem fight) but I closed the e-mail and moved on.
<sings>
There's NO golems like SNOW golems there's NO golems I KNOW!
</sings>
Hmm...
...being a powerful sorceress has not "liberated" Seoni from being defined by male perception so it must be ok then, one IS supposed to be defined by male perception.Question: How are Eva Widerman's illustrations of Shelyn, Calistria, the Thrall of Malcanthet or her Pirate Chick different from Seoni? Especially with regards to your statement of the latter being defined by male perception?
...they don't appear on Paizo Christmas cards. That's the only difference I note between the pics. Which then forces us to question about generic portrayal of women in Paizo art...
After reading all those reactions, I can't wait next Christmas to see what people will say when the chick on next Xmas card will be ...
Mammy Graul !!
I think the original issue was that it was perceived as being a man who drew seoni, while eva widermann is a woman.
Which sounds delightfully sexist really.
The d7 guy said on his website that its okay for women to empower women with sexuality, but if men do it their sexist, yet men are apparently obliged to stand up for and loudly denounce any sign of female sexuality, like breasts.
Which again, doesn't really seem to me a good approach to you know, actual f-ing* equality.
*doesn't indicate rage or emotion, I just grew up in a culture of swearing. I'm actually amused by the stupidity of it when rendered in simple terms.