2.) Universalist School of Magic. You get to cherry pick the best spells for your bonus spells, and your 1st and 8th level abilities are the best in the game.
2a.) Hand of the Apprentice. Spares you from memorizing mage hand (no big deal), but lets you do d8+4 or d8+5 damage every attack, with a good attack bonus. Keeps you almost on par with meleers...when you're meleeing...except that there's no threat of you actually being in melee. Fantastic.
2b.) Universalist Metamagic. Far and away the most useful. Free quickens, extends, etc...but people have already talked about this.
In general... I don't get why you would specialize, Universalist is just all around better than any of the specialization schools now and you give up nothing. Some of the specialization schools have abilities I like (Illusion is a favorite) but you have to give up 2 schools (sort of) to get it.
I'm ok with the universalist getting back to parity with the specialists... I just think it goes a little too far.
Universalists should not gain the bonus spells at levels 2,4,6,10,12,14,16, and 18. they give nothing up for them.
Well I want prohibited schools back. They gain all them spells they should not be able to cast prohibited schools at all.
Universalists should not gain the bonus spells at levels 2,4,6,10,12,14,16, and 18. they give nothing up for them.In defense of universalists: If you took away those spells, everybody might specialize, because the penalty for specializing is also tiny.
"Any day you memorize forbidden school spells, you don't get to use your abilities" is hardly a restriction. You could absolutely go days without, say, a necromancy or a divination. And then spend a whole day scrying and loving liches.
-Cross
I agree on both parts, I do however agree with seeker that the specialists have to give up something in order to gain their bonus abilities. It's a tough balancing act. As you point out in your first post though, the universalist has some of the best powers of all the wizards. I would be ok with them keeping their bonus spells but having the 1st and 8th level abilities tamed down a bit.
Well I want prohibited schools back. They gain all them spells they should not be able to cast prohibited schools at all.
Yes, prohibited schools should be prohibited, not just not taken on even numbered Tuesdays.
Really? No arguments from anybody disagreeing with either my interpretations of rules or the conclusions?
No disagreement from me.
Most of the overpowered comments I have are specific overpowered spells, so I will have to wait until the spell section opens up.
Really? No arguments from anybody disagreeing with either my interpretations of rules or the conclusions?
Ah well.
-Cross
You sound disappointed. I think it's pretty well accepted that the generalist is borked.
I think any issues with arcane bond are more manageable since they require the occasional refresh and a bit of DM discretion.
For me...
1) Remove Arcane Bond.
2) If you don't specialize you don't gain the bonus spells.
3) If you do specialize your prohibited schools can never be accessed.
Either versatility or more spells/day, not both.
1.) Arcane Bond. Being able to spontaneously pull up a spell from your book trumps any familiar bonus.
What's the benefit of having over a hundred spells spread through three spellbooks if wizards are usually forced to memorize only the same, reduced amount of spells day after day in order to stay alive? Without the "wildcard" slot that is the Arcane Bond the Wizard is reduced to a Sorcerer, but with less spell slots... in addition, it's only once per day, stop freaking out, my draconian friend.
It's infinitely better than a familiar? Yes, stupid furry animal sounds good in paper but in practice becomes nothing but a liability, particularly on tables with DMs that hate companions "because they're overpowered"... which is around 50% of tables.
1b.) Arcane Bond: Wand seems ridiculous. Inform me if I am reading this wrong: You get the ability to use the item creation feat as if you had it, for the purpose of enchanting this item.
Yes, ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PLACING THE BOND ENCHANTMENT. IT DOESN'T GRANT YOU THE CRAFT WAND FEAT FOR FREE. Not to sound rude, but you need to learn to read carefully and reason the paragraph before you start posting your nerf requests.
2.) Universalist School of Magic. You get to cherry pick the best spells for your bonus spells, and your 1st and 8th level abilities are the best in the game.
I fail to see how a glorified version of the Spectral Hand spell beats controlling 8HD/level of Undead or the Dimensional Steps ability. Metamatic Mastery is cool, ok, but only if you're devoted to metamagic feats entirely, in addition, it's limited to 1 spell for 2 caster levels, so it's not like you had an "all you can Maximize" metamagic buffette... again... take things in context instead of just taking things from "how they sound in paper".
2a.) Hand of the Apprentice. Spares you from memorizing mage hand (no big deal), but lets you do d8+4 or d8+5 damage every attack, with a good attack bonus. Keeps you almost on par with meleers...
Quoting the book verbatim: "using your base attack bonus, plus your Intelligence modifier on both attack and damage rolls.". Unless you're thinking of people who take only one level of Universalist and then go Fighter all the way, I fail to see how a WIZARD BASE ATTACK BONUS is any "good" when once the party hits lvl 4 you won't be able to hit anything.
Please let us know of how is your playtest going once your wizard has advanced past level one, once you have an actual, hands-on perspective on the class. Thanks.
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On the HotA issue (should be playtesting it myself, soon) I am less and less convinced that it's overpowered, particularly if the damage bonus is dropped (or capped at level; I don't want the attack bonus capped, though). You're not close to as good as the meleers within a few levels and given that the HotA has to move to get there (giving up a round) and hits against the opponents actual AC (rather than touch AC as per the ray powers) I'll take some convincing that it's such a killer power. No iterative attacks or feats applied to it, either, if I remember Jason's comment in one of the other threads.
HotA needs simple explanation of what it does. At present, that's lacking. As for the bonus spells and metamagic mastery, I'd be inclined to ditch metamagic mastery (or move it up to the 20th level power) and the general Mastery of All Schools bonus that makes 20th-level universalists better than specialists at those specialities, but I'm not so sure on the bonus spells. If I have a real problem, like Hogarth, it's with the power of some spells, not that the wizard may have more of them. Also, I never liked the 'prohibited school' mechanic that forbade specialists from using spells from other schools; the school divides are so fuzzy in some cases that I don't want them to have so much importance as to forbid a wizard from learning a spell whose school association is debateable (and may have been allocated for reasons other than internal logic, such as some attempt to balance schools); the 'give up your powers' thing is more reasonable, I think (although it doesn't entirely make sense from a narrative or simulationist perspective, but I would say that that is a function of the aforementioned weakness of the spell school divisions).
I guess that, if anything, I don't like the idea of specialists because their existence is predicated on the spell schools and I don't think that they make a lot of sense from the point of view of flavour or logic (which isn't to say that the idea of having spells schools doesn't make sense, just that I don't think that the D&D schools and the spell allocations within them make a lot of sense). In fact, if I had a wishlist for spells, weakening the pernicious effects of the spell schools (including the 'conjuration immune to SR, evocations not') would be part of it. But that's perhaps too violent a change and this isn't the forum for it.
While I agree, that specialists looks unattractive for now, I'm firmly against giving them, or anyone else for that matter, free metamagic. Along with means of increasing one's caster level, this is among the easiest ways to various overpowered exlpoits. Free metamagic is the main reason why PBeta universalist is king. Extra ways to increase DCs and SR penetration also should be treated with great caution. Particularly if save progressions of PrCs are going to be lower. Save-or-lose spell aren't going anywhere without redefining the metagame to degree that makes 3.5 modules and monster manuals practically incompatible.
I've got a universalist wizard in a game I'm running, and so far as has been shown, everything Crosswind said in his OP I agree with. Except for the enchanting like a wand thing. I really don't see that as overpowered at all, since you still have to have the prereq spell to enchant with. It's not like you couldn't just purchase a lower charge wand during character creation in the first place. Maybe that's just me though.
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So: Wizards need intelligence, and all other stats are pretty useless. Meleers generally need at least strength and constitution. As a result, a wizard will probably have intelligence which is at least equal to another meleer's strength.
For the first few levels, there just isn't a huge difference in the damage - d8+4 with +4 AB for the wizard, or d8+4 with +6 AB (Weapon Focus)? Not really that big a deal.
Further, it attacks at range. It can attack flying creatures. It can be used to throw daggers, or fire oil, while you hide in the bushes.
Finally, it's better than Mage Hand. Therefore, you can memorize an extra cantrip. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've found that having another one is very useful.
I won't go around arguing that it's hugely overpowered. But I do think that it is solidly the best 1st level ability. And so are the other 2 universalist powers. This makes the universalist better than everybody else. =)
Actually, I think that my wizard players, particularly at early levels, would prefer a ray; it's a ranged touch and you don't have to wait a round for it to get there before it can go to work. As I say, I'm OK with a reduction to the damage bonus, though (and I agree that the Wiz will have the same Int bonus as the meleer does attack-stat bonus (presumably Str, although it could be Dex for a finesse-based fighter, I guess). The meleer, of course, will probably be using two hands for a larger bonus (although sword-and-board is somewhat likely at lower levels).
But I agree with your general point that if there's an issue, it's with the other higher-level powers (I just find that my bigger issue is with the spells themselves, rather than bonus spells or even the powers, although I'd be OK with the Universalist captstone getting replaced).
I think to better differntiaite the wizard from the sorceror (since the sorceror gets bloodline bonuses) The wizard #1 should be REQUIRED to be a specialist and boost the bonuses from being a specialist a little.
Also need better, and more numerous undead/necromantic spells for a necromancer character.
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Hand of the Apprentice (or Acolyte, for Magic Domain Clerics) is bad in two directions, being too good at 1st level, and utter crap at about 8th. The power should be something that is useful at all levels, but not overpowering at any of them.
*If* the power is going to be kept, one option would be changing the wording so that the weapon only gains a +1 to attack and damage for each level of spells that you've mastered (making it work kinda/sorta like a Reserve Feat). So it would still a +1 to attack and damage at 1st level, and +3 to attack and damage at 5th level (when you gain 3rd level spells), etc. up to +9 to attack and damage by the time you're learning meteor swarm and fondly remembering it being worth using as an action once.
In addition to it's potential 'too goodness' at 1st level, it's also a Spell-like Ability, meaning that a 1st level Human Generalist with an Intelligence of 16 could run around wearing (non-proficiently) a chain shirt and heavy shield, using a longsword (which he's become proficient in thanks to his bonus Human weapon proficiency) at a +3 to attack and damage as his 'attack.' He can prepare spells like feather fall and true strike that require no Somatic components, long-casting out of combat spells like identify, or long-lasting precast spells like mount or unseen servant or floating disk. Once he gets out of the 'danger zone' of 1st through 4th level Wizard-dom, he can throw out the chain shirt and shield and start chucking fireballs with the rest of them.
And the threads that this power alone has spawned, with their dozens of rules questions regarding it taking up a space or how it interacts with AoOs or whether or not it can move and attack or whatever is just yet more fodder for axing this power with extreme predjudice and replacing it with something less problematic.
my two cents,
I play a universalist mage. Both myself and my DM agree that he is not overpowered at all. I have just made second lvl after killing more zombies than I care to count. We were facing CR4+ encounters and the DM has us on the slow EXP track. If you feel that a class is really overpowered look at how your players are reacting to it. Right now they love the fact I'm a mage so I can enchant stuff for them and they ALL took their second lvls in cleric. so now my party has a fighter/cleric, a theif/cleric and a 2nd lvl cleric and a 2nd lvl mage.
In response to an earlier post about human mages wielding longswords and the like. My DM addressed this earlier when my mage had the same str. score as the fighter, a better con score and I was going to be using a double headed great axe just cause I'm human. He said no way not happening, he gave me the feat but said it only applied to combat options related to my CLASS weapons, thus a mage with two weapon fighting is very useful after he runs outta spells.
I personally dislike spec mages because I hate,and I do mean Hate the thought of giving up any school of magic so I am a uni all the way but I will agree with the arcane bond being vastly superior to some dumb fuzzy hostage. I chose the ring option for my mage, can we say ring of pro+1 as soon as I get the gold!
In closing I love the BETA version of mages and dont think they should change a thing.
arcane bond is broken and unbalanced compared to familiars. universal wizards are BY FAR better than specialist. this should not be a debate, just a fact that needs to be addressed in the beta. (hand of the apprentice is too good, and too unspecified)
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Hand of the Apprentice is balanced against the other abilities because it requires a normal attack instead of a ranged touch attack. It does more damage but hits less often.
Am I the only one that views +2 on nearly every skill I have high ranks in and a +3 bonus on another skill along with a sentry, scout, and general extra set of eyes as useful? This ignoring the fact that familiars open up a whole range of roleplaying opportunity.
The Universalist school is by far better then all the specialist schools. The ideal change in my mind would be to move the specialists toward the Focused Specialist variant from Complete Mage. Give them extra spells (as per that variant) in exchange for losing 2-3 schools of magic. And get rid of the stupid bonus unchangeable slots you get a level later. I honestly view the pathfinder changes even with the bonus specialist features and without the generalist features as a debuff on specialists. I'd rather have the extra slot to use as I please at the right level.
Don't debuff the Generalist. It just MIGHT be tempting for a strait wizard, though I've got to say a 12 level gap between class features is a bit much. All the specialist paths should really grant a 14th level feature.
At present the only reason my wizard isn't prestige classed into something else is because the prestige classes in the Beta are worthless.
I think the basic problem here goes far beyond any given wizard option being more powerful than any other given wizard option. The basic problem is that every change that has been made to the wizard gave more power to what was already the single most powerful and broken class in the game. Except Polymorph type spells, none of the spells that were a staple of the 'Batman Wizard' seem to have been toned down, and touch range spells are somewhat more attractive to Wizards with their higher hit die. (Though on the other side of that coin, rolling Concentration into Spellcraft exacerbates a Wizard's Single Ability Dependence; they now have almost no reason to focus on any ability score besides Intelligence.) Every wizard gets extra spells per day, prohibited schools aren't actually prohibited, and at each 'tier' of levels, they get a nifty spell-like ability, most usable at will. With all these powers, what has the wizard given up? This is the level of buffing that the monk needed. The wizard, if anything, needed to be weakened. because currently, the list of overpowered Wizard options can be summed up as 'Being a Wizard.'
Hi - I've playtested a wizard in an ongoing campaign. I will define "Overpowered" as "Options that are much better than the other options available".
1.) Arcane Bond. Being able to spontaneously pull up a spell from your book trumps any familiar bonus. Further:
1b.) Arcane Bond: Wand seems ridiculous. Inform me if I am reading this wrong: You get the ability to use the item creation feat as if you had it, for the purpose of enchanting this item. Every single other bit of item creation has prohibitive restrictions on caster levels, in addition to having the feat.
Craft Wand has no such restrictions. This means that, if you want, you can spend your first 175 gold crafting yourself a 50-charge wand of grease. Or Enlarge Person, Burning Hands, whatever you like. Basically, you will always have something excellent to do during combat. Finally, when the wand runs out, you can always re-enchant on the cheap.
While I realize that this denies you certain high level options, like crafting yourself a metamagic rod of quicken, wizards don't particularly need help at high levels. They need help at low levels, and this -really- makes them kick ass.
2.) Universalist School of Magic. You get to cherry pick the best spells for your bonus spells, and your 1st and 8th level abilities are the best in the game.
2a.) Hand of the Apprentice. Spares you from memorizing mage hand (no big deal), but lets you do d8+4 or d8+5 damage every attack, with a good attack bonus. Keeps you almost on par with meleers...when you're meleeing...except that there's no threat of you actually being in melee. Fantastic.
2b.) Universalist Metamagic. Far and away the most useful. Free quickens, extends, etc...but people have already talked about this.
Anyhow, that's my short list of wizard abilities that leap above the pack in terms of usefulness.
-Cross
I agree on all of these points, but the most broken or overpowered things with wizards has been certain spells and item creation gone out of hand. I think many spells should get redone and clarified and the entire item crafting system should get looked over.
I had a low level wizard with hand of the apprentice who was the best fighter in the group in terms of attack modifiers and damage. The melee players in the group constantly pointed to this ability as overpowered, but I believe it would be less so at higher levels of play.
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Hand of the Apprentice (or Acolyte, for Magic Domain Clerics) is bad in two directions, being too good at 1st level, and utter crap at about 8th. The power should be something that is useful at all levels, but not overpowering at any of them.
I can't comment on the later levels, but in our playtesting at low levels, HotA just isn't too powerful. The fact that it takes time to get there and doesn't move very fast appear to us to entirely compensate for the power of it. However, we have mostly played with the damage bonus removed for now, as Jason suggested might happen; not because I think that it's overpowered as written, but because where possible we are moving in the direction that Jason appears to be moving, to ease the transition into the full PFRPG release.