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Okay, Paladins at first level get smite evil 1 per day and aura of good. Smite evil is not enough at first level and aura of good doesn't actually do anything. That means that a first level paladin needs something. My solution, why not make aura of good also act as a protection from evil spell for the paladin? Does anyone think this is game breaking in any way?
My suggestions (that i already use in my campaign) to make the Aura of Good really useful and significant :
Aura of Good (Ex) :
A paladin is surrounded by an aura of good, equal to his level.
The aura duplicates the effects of Protection from Evil.
The attacks of the paladin are considered as aligned (good and axiomatic) against the damage reduction of evil creatures.
This happen to go in the direction of the thread about Smite Evil, in which some posters suggest the smite should be aligned. The difference would be that all the attacks of the paladin would be aligned, not only the smites.
You have to watch how many powers the paladin gets at first level, otherwise you encourage level-dipping. That being said, I would like to see good & axiomatic strikes for the paladin, but not till fifth or seventh level.
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My suggestions (that i already use in my campaign) to make the Aura of Good really useful and significant :
Aura of Good (Ex) :
A paladin is surrounded by an aura of good, equal to his level.
The aura duplicates the effects of Protection from Evil.
The attacks of the paladin are considered as aligned (good and axiomatic) against the damage reduction of evil creatures.This happen to go in the direction of the thread about Smite Evil, in which some posters suggest the smite should be aligned. The difference would be that all the attacks of the paladin would be aligned, not only the smites.
not bad, but he's right that would seriously have everyone taking paladin at for one level if they were lawful good.
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You have to watch how many powers the paladin gets at first level, otherwise you encourage level-dipping. That being said, I would like to see good & axiomatic strikes for the paladin, but not till fifth or seventh level.
True, but right now he gets practically bubkus at first, so either he needs 1+cha smites per day (which wouldn't encourage level dipping) or the protection from evil effect of arua of good, which you're right could encourage it. But then again so could the good and axiomatic strikes. So I guess I'll just go back to pushing for 1+cha smites per day.
I vote Aura of Good = "attacks are good-aligned."
Right now, Aura of Good is actually more a of a weakness than a power, since it undermines any attempts at subterfuge and can make the paladin easier to detect/locate in many instances. Heretofore the only benefits of this "power" have been invented by merciful GMs.
Just making the attacks good aligned is great for a first level power, and it makes a revised smite rule one line shorter. 95% of paladins would pick up a good-aligned weapon anyway, now we can free them up to wield something with elemental damage or whatnot a few levels earlier.
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I vote Aura of Good = "attacks are good-aligned."
Right now, Aura of Good is actually more a of a weakness than a power, since it undermines any attempts at subterfuge and can make the paladin easier to detect/locate in many instances. Heretofore the only benefits of this "power" have been invented by merciful GMs.
Just making the attacks good aligned is great for a first level power, and it makes a revised smite rule one line shorter. 95% of paladins would pick up a good-aligned weapon anyway, now we can free them up to wield something with elemental damage or whatnot a few levels earlier.
Yeah I can see just good aligned attacks and then maybe at level 10 he gains lawful alligned as a boost, you just don't want to top load it at first level. Good call toy robots, glad to see we finally have a fix we aren't fighting back and forth over :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah I can see just good aligned attacks and then maybe at level 10 he gains lawful alligned as a boost, you just don't want to top load it at first level. Good call toy robots, glad to see we finally have a fix we aren't fighting back and forth over :)I vote Aura of Good = "attacks are good-aligned."
Right now, Aura of Good is actually more a of a weakness than a power, since it undermines any attempts at subterfuge and can make the paladin easier to detect/locate in many instances. Heretofore the only benefits of this "power" have been invented by merciful GMs.
Just making the attacks good aligned is great for a first level power, and it makes a revised smite rule one line shorter. 95% of paladins would pick up a good-aligned weapon anyway, now we can free them up to wield something with elemental damage or whatnot a few levels earlier.
The question is:
Since clerics also get the "aura" power, should the same rule apply to them?
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Yeah I can see just good aligned attacks and then maybe at level 10 he gains lawful alligned as a boost, you just don't want to top load it at first level. Good call toy robots, glad to see we finally have a fix we aren't fighting back and forth over :)I vote Aura of Good = "attacks are good-aligned."
Right now, Aura of Good is actually more a of a weakness than a power, since it undermines any attempts at subterfuge and can make the paladin easier to detect/locate in many instances. Heretofore the only benefits of this "power" have been invented by merciful GMs.
Just making the attacks good aligned is great for a first level power, and it makes a revised smite rule one line shorter. 95% of paladins would pick up a good-aligned weapon anyway, now we can free them up to wield something with elemental damage or whatnot a few levels earlier.
The question is:
Since clerics also get the "aura" power, should the same rule apply to them?
Nope
It should only boost the paladin and say in the paladins description "in addition blah" the cleric is a full spellcaster and doesn't need the boost.
Good call toy robots, glad to see we finally have a fix we aren't fighting back and forth over :)
I never saw it as fighting, my friend. I love different perspectives!
I would like Cleric's aura to work the same way. They'll get less mileage out of it. Sure they can get through DR with a melee weapon, but rare is the cleric for whom that will change the outcome of an encounter. And if you have such a martial cleric, then fine! Some gods are more brutal than others.
It's necessary for the paladin, nice for the cleric. As the rule is now, it is nothing more than a minor irritation for both of them, that 90% of GMs forget to exploit.
Why not make Aura of Good be like a constant Protection from Evil ability for the Paladin. it would help his AC.
Or you could make it that any real powers associated with it only kick in after a couple of levels. eg: good aligned weapon @ 3rd, prot' from evil @5th, prot' from evil 5' radius @ 7th level, prot' from evil 10' radius @ 9 th level, holy sword @ 11th level, etc…
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Why not make Aura of Good be like a constant Protection from Evil ability for the Paladin. it would help his AC.
Or you could make it that any real powers associated with it only kick in after a couple of levels. eg: good aligned weapon @ 3rd, prot' from evil @5th, prot' from evil 5' radius @ 7th level, prot' from evil 10' radius @ 9 th level, holy sword @ 11th level, etc…
I like how your first sentence is suggesting that we give the paladins aura of good protection from evil qualities, where'd you get that idea? ;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Having the Aura of Good duplicate the effect of Protection from Evil is in my opinion too good. First off it would grant an permanent +2 to AC and All Saves, and more importantly grant the Paladin permanent IMMUNITY to pretty much all enchantment [charm] and enchantment [compulsion] effects. It is actually BETTER than the spell which has a limited duration and does not grant immunity to those effects but merely suppresses them for the duration of the spell.
The only part of Protection from Evil that I could see incorporating into the Aura of Good is the third effect, preventing bodily contact by summoned creatures. The effect would remain at 1 foot from the Paladin's body and would be negated if the Paladin attacks or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.
Aura of Good is in my view the foundation on which the other Auras are built. Should it have some mechanical benefit outside of this it should be less front loaded than making a spell effect permanent.
Side note: The only mention of an aligned Aura for Clerics is in the description of the Detect Alignment spells. It is NOT currently listed as a class feature. This may be an editing artifact in the spells, which now function purely off of a cleric's caster level and not an aura class ability. Clarification from Jason would be helpful.
???
Um, yeah, it is.
p. 20, column 2, paragraph 3.
It does not show up on Table 4-5 on p. 21, so maybe that's where you were looking, but it's right there in the text.
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Nope
It should only boost the paladin and say in the paladins description "in addition blah" the cleric is a full spellcaster and doesn't need the boost.
the Aura is only a characteristic denoting how close they are to their gods
either you give some extra power both clerics and paladins or you left asit is for both of them
Thanks, I missed the text above the picture. I was scanning through the PDF backward, saw the picture on the right and since the top of the page was not visible I just assumed that there was nothing above the picture. Thus I once again prove what happens when you assume.
That being cleared up, the suggestion I made of only allowing the third effect of Protection from Evil (substituting the appropriate opposed alignment) would also work just fine for a Cleric as well, but since the cleric gets Aura vs Aura of Good it need not necessarily apply as they can be viewed as two distinctively different things.
why?
why should the blessing of a god shouldbe different for one follower than another?|
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why?
why should the blessing of a god shouldbe different for one follower than another?
Because a cleric gets spells at first level and channeling. The Cleric has options and class features and doesn't need another boost. If we don't change aura of good for the paladin though all he gets for his 1st level is smite and detect evil, one of which has no utility in combat and the other that has a negligible boost to combat once per day. If we don't give him something for his Aura of Good, then we need to make up some kind of new ability to give him so that he isn't stuck waiting on fourth level to get some combat utility.
Okay maybe he doesn't need all of the boosts of protection from evil, but I think that he should definitely get the summoned creatures can't strike him. That feels very paladiny, the group gets to the BBEG who laughs and summons a swarm of demons (or whatever) the paladin wades right through them unscathed and lays the smackdown on the BBEG.
I'd also argue that the immunity from being charmed is a must have for the pally (when against evil) but could see it not kicking in till later levels (say the same level that a wizard is able to cast dominate person)
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Aura of "Good" it was not supposed to be for compbat, just to add to the mood of the character and to feel thematicall...
both auras are the same, in the paladin is called Aura of good... ebcause the paladin is Lawful Good... in the Cleric is left open because there are Evil Clerics too!
while i think the paladin needs a boost, i think giving a boost in an aura is not the right way, actually i would prefer him togain other powers instead of the spellcasting, better uses to channel the positive energy, divine protections... but changing a thematic "Aura" without changing similar ones in other classes is not the way
my good clerics would beasking why the paladin gets that nice improvement
why the paladin is better ormore in favor with theri good than the actuall clerics?
in 2nd edition i would understand... the attribute rperequisites to be a pladin made him night imposible... right now ANYONE can be a paladin... so why should he be more in favor than the cleric, both are tools of the gods, both equally blessed (that is what the aura is, a blessing of the god denoting them as their closer connection with the world)
want to changethings, you affect both auras... i do prefer that the paladin get something else instead of the spells.
what i would like to seein the paladin is something similar to Favored enemy versus evil person... not favored enemy, but yes a way in which he is more difficutl to be influenced by them
Paladins already have Divine Grace already gives paladins a boost to saving throws (if anyone complains of their paladin ahving low charisma... they should have done a fighter... paladins have been alwaus linked to charisma and wisdom)
Point taken, about the level dipping (tss, munchkins...).
What about something like this :
Aura of Good (Ex) :
A paladin is surrounded by an aura of good, equal to his level.
The aura duplicates the effects of Protection from Evil.
From the 3rd level this aura extends to a radius of 10ft, like a Magic Circle against Evil.
From the 5th level the attacks of the paladin are considered as aligned (good) against the damage reduction of evil creatures.
From the 7th level they are considered as aligned (good and axiomatic) against the damage reduction of evil and chaotic creatures.
Better ?
That's still way too good, methinks. While I like the idea of an offensive Aura of Good, constant spells and ignoring DR should not be at those low levels! At the very least, they should come a level or two after which a cleric can cast the spell in question.
I'd give up paladin spells to bypass evil or chaotic DR at appropriate levels, similar to the Complete Warrior variant.
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Okay, Paladins at first level get smite evil 1 per day and aura of good.1st level paladins also get detect evil at will, which is nothing to sneeze at.
Pardon me *sneezes at detect evil* Yeah a class feature that has no combat utility and any DM with a paladin in his group immeadiately gives any bad guy he wants to keep hidden the ability to mask. A class feature that works great as long as the DM doesn't care if it works but the second he doesn't want the group to know the guy is evil he just happens to always cast the spell that fakes his aura or a magic item that makes his undetectable just in case he happens to run into a paladin which oh he just did, good thing he was like a boyscout and always prepared. Forgive me for not thinking that its worth having 1 smite and no other useful abilities.
...aura of good doesn't actually do anything.Aura of good isn't supposed to do anything; it's a class drawback that makes paladins easier to detect, not a class benefit.
Ok, so what is the fighters drawback for first level, the sorcerer, the bard, why does the paladin get a drawback when he doesn't even have any awesome abilities to make up for it. I have no problem with the paladin having an aura of good that he can't mask up. But there is no reason not to give it some decent utility, unless you are saying that the paladin is more powerful than the druid or wizard, or even equal in power to the cleric.
Montalve, sorry, not named the same, not the same ability. Just because they're similar doesn't mean they are the same. If the clerics in your party ask why their auras don't give them a benefit just tell them exactly what I told you. That their god knows that the spells and chaneling he gets are the reason his aura doesn't do the same as the paladins. Heck even if they are named the same they can work differently look at my channeling which functions 3 levels lower than the clerics. its the same ability, just because I got it later why should it be at a lower level. Or my spellcasting which has a 1/2 cleric caster level. Care to explain that, why not level -3?
In answer to the original post, yes, it could well it be over-powering if not properly handled and moderately-levelled.
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Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).
Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Lastknight, would you care to explain the differece?
aside of the "of good"?
Aura(ex) (or Aura of Good, which is the same thing) IS NOT an ability, its just a thematich characteristic... much similar to the druid's restriction of not using metal weapons and armor... there is just no way to penalize or take away an "aura" (ok you can hide it, asmuch as you can use "Iron Wood" Spell on your equipment)
it does nothing because its not supposed to thi something except pinpoint "hey big force of evil/good here, come and maul and molest her/him"
why they give positive channel to the paladin at level 3 might beto the fact that they get detect evil (if your master would never let you use it... then its the problem of your master... i prefer to hide my evil villains in public... yes please go and kill the Sheriff or the Powerful Merchant against who youhave no other proof that your powerful sight... in my campaigns is a time to capture, judge and execute PCs (or they can run fast enough, the fact is that they murdered someone)) and smite evil, which might need some upgrade
then at 2nd level they get divine grace and lay on hands, both sounds nice too me
etc
yes i would try to give them positive channeling earlier, because i see them as divine as the cleric... i don't think James will do it, because it will affect the famous backward compatibility...
that is no reason to give something to a class and not to another, when they have the same "characteristic" i do like Aura as its is in both classes... either as GM and Player, i would better see possitive channel moved down... but it will give a lot more benefit to the paladin... the paladin by nature has better charisma than the cleric, he has more special qualities that depend on that.
Not to steal LKL's thunder, but there isn't any :)
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Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.Lastknight, would you care to explain the differece?
Is your quote on the cleric the entirety of the description, then I hate to tell you, they are different. The paladins is based on his level and from the part you quoted the clerics isn't. Now if you just left off the part that says the clerics levels= their aura then mechanically they are similar, the name is still different. And even if there is no difference right now, even if all clerics got aura of good and it was called aura of good are you telling me that every class that has the same named mechanic works in the same way?
Bards and sorcerers all cast the same way as clerics and wizards, the all have the ability spells: in their descrption so how come they work differently are you pressing to unify the spellcasting mechanic because your clerics are upset that they don't cast spontaneously?
Why not just rename it Paladin Aura or Holy Aura or something like that.
It could still function as Aura of Good at first level but as you increase in levels it could get stronger by adding all the other Auras to it at level equal to the Fighters Armour Training bonus, ie:
1st: Aura of good
3rd: Aura of courage
7th: Aura of resolve
11th: Aura of justice
15th: Aura of faith
19th: Aura of righteousness
I realize that you would receive some of these powers at a later level but I don't see that as a problem.
I still like the idea of the aura working like a continuos protection of evil. I know it adds to the Paladins saving throws, but it could replace Divine Grace and Aura of Resolve at later levels. Or ust give the Paladin the same saves as a Monk in place of Divine Grace.
Paladins already get large save boosts from Divine Grace. I certainly wouldn't swap it in, just for a constant Protection from Evil. I most definitely wouldn't give them monk saves in lieu of it either.
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Why not just rename it Paladin Aura or Holy Aura or something like that.
maybe because i don't agree with his technicism of how they want to read Aura
Aura Power: An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
This spell functions like detect evil, except that it detects the auras of good creatures, clerics or paladins of good deities, good spells, and good magic items, and you are vulnerable to an overwhelming good aura if you are evil. Healing potions, antidotes, and similar beneficial items are not good.
considering that the description on tha paladin says that it depends on his level... as does the cleric according to "detect evil" and "detect good" its exactly the same
yes ITS the same ability... they just haven't worded it like that because EVIL comes before GOOD in the dictionary, if it has been the otherway around it would have surely read "(in the case of a cleric or paladin)"
dude its the same as when i was discussing about 4 skill points for the cleric and others... you see this as a need, others don't
the difference is that in the aura... the spelling is correct... same characteristic... while you are just reading whatever you want to read... and its worded exactly... copy + paste works wonder for no mistakes....
in the description of Aura and Aura of good i copied all, in the description of the spells only the important section, for the rest you can check it in your copy
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Giving the paladin a continuously emanating protection from evil ability actually comes right from 1st Ed AD&D. That was the aura that the paladin had, 10' radius. It was taken away in 3rd Ed.
I could support having the paladin regain this ability once again.
point...
mmm had forgotten that2nd edition paladin had an eternal "10' protection from evil" around him/her
mmm
i concede, they need it, nobetter savings (already divine grace) but aye a better rpotection or something differentr to detere the prescence of evil
i insit the class whould have prerequisites...
I really like the idea of a Paladin gaining the "touch not, lest ye be touched" aspect of Protection from Evil at 1st level (even if they don't get the save/ac/enchantment bonuses).
Thematically, it puts me in mind of a paladin being special from birth. i.e. The evil sorcerer-monarch cannot send their summoned fiends to gank the child who will grow up to smite them. Instead, they have to use more conventional means that are subject to failing which gives the child a chance to be rescued by some halflings...
I love that idea, Laithoron! Now all we need to do is to implement it properly, without further burdening the front end of the class.
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Hell, as long as he gets it, I'll even be willing to have it put in at first level with a different name. I just don't understand the hang up based on a naming convention when there are lots of instances of classes having abilities that have the same name but that function differently.
But if it has to be added as a different name I'm fine with it. Just as long as a first level paladin isn't shafted in the ability department.
And we have at least one point of agreement. We don't want to see divine grace changed. So if nothing else, at least we have that Montalve :) As a side note, I was posting from work where I'm not supposed to have pathfinder downloaded. so I couldn't check it myself and respond (home computer temporarily down).
Anywho, since we agree that they could at least use it and older editions give it precedent, what should we call this ability. I could see it starting out at first level as just on the paladin. Then at 5th level the ability extends to anyone adjacent, 10th level it goes out to 10 ft, then at 15th level it extends to 20ft. The +2 to AC and the immunity to charm is only against evil creatures. I know that 70% of the creatures fought will be evil, but that still leaves him with nothing when fighting nuetral creatures (in my game the bandits I've been clearing out have been 90% non-evil, I suspect they were magically compelled, but I have no proof cause there are no spellcasters around, so protection from evil wouldn't even have helped me that much). Also while a big boost for first level it would eventually be overshadowed by the fighters armor training. But the pally is all about immunities so the immunity to charm fits right in with the character.
The class isn't really that front end burdened, but I can see people dipping for two levels of cleric to get the pro evil and divine grace. Hmm, maybe we start it off with just the immunity to summons, when he hits 3rd level (same level that the fighter gets his first +1 that applies to everything instead of just evil) he can get the +2 to AC, and then at 7th he can get the immunity to charm.
So in the end, what about
Aura of Protection: At first level the Paladin is graced with an aura that prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by a summoned creature ends if the Paladin makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. At third level he gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC against all evil creatures. At 5th level this aura extends out to 5ft providing protection to any adjacent allies. At 7th level the Paladin's aura blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the
subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect If the Paladin were to loose the use of the aura before the effect granting mental control ends, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the Paladin. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force. This second effect works regardless of alignment. At 10th level the radius of the aura extends to 10ft affecting all allies in the area. At 15th level the radius extends to 20ft.
So what do you guys think, it isn't top loaded at first level, is a throwback to the paladin from previous editions, and grows in strength with the paladin to the point where at 15th level when he would be a paragon of virtue, he is gracing anyone nearby with his presence.
LKL: I like it. I'm almost wondering if it should be even stronger, by 15th-20th levels, to be more on-par with the Cleric's Holy Aura spell.
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Just as a thought rather than Prot Evil howabout perma bless or permanent divine favour (scale the favour by Paladin level rather than class level.) That way you get something on that base aura and give the permanet boost to combat potential some people have been asking for with out being as pokey as the current suggestions?
Just as a thought rather than Prot Evil howabout perma bless or permanent divine favour (scale the favour by Paladin level rather than class level.) That way you get something on that base aura and give the permanet boost to combat potential some people have been asking for with out being as pokey as the current suggestions?
I like all the ideas but I think the perma divine favor is my favorite! That would be awesome. Maybe this does not happen till 10th lvl or something, on top of all the other effects.
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Well I was kinda trying to go old school with it. That's why prot from evil. Plus I feel that it's the most appropriate fit for the pally, who else would you expect to walk around all day protected from evil?
Plus with the 5ft, 10ft durations I have this mental image of the Party fighter getting dominated and turning on his allies. Then the paladin steps up to him and he feels the warding slip away the paladin says "You've been posessed my friend, stay close to me and we shall slay this enemy together." Very cool imagery. That mainly what I want, not necessarily crazy buffs, but abilities that have a very real feel of Paladin to them.
Oh and of course I expected all scaling of this aura to be based on paladin level. If you dip into pally you don't get the extended radius or bonus effects.
Aura of Good is really intended to apply only to spells such as detect good. It says that paladins, like clerics who serve good deities, register as strongly as good outsiders with the same HD. (Note that the HD table is missing from the Pathfinder Beta; check the 3.5 SRD instead.)
Does it make them "easier" to detect? Not according to the rules as written. Any creature of good alignment has at least a faint good aura. It's just that while an 11th-level NG fighter has a moderate good aura, an 11th-level paladin has an overwhelming good aura. The only game difference is that the paladin's aura lingers after his death for 1d6 days instead of 1d6 minutes, and evil clerics of 5th level or less would be stunned for 1 round if they tried to use detect good on the paladin.
But, faint or overwhelming, you'd still show up on the radar just as easily. That's why paladins can cast undetectable alignment when they reach 7th level. The only issue I have is that paladins should have a lawful aura as strong as their good aura. They are, after all, paragons of both.
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Aura of Good is really intended to apply only to spells such as detect good. It says that paladins, like clerics who serve good deities, register as strongly as good outsiders with the same HD. (Note that the HD table is missing from the Pathfinder Beta; check the 3.5 SRD instead.)
Does it make them "easier" to detect? Not according to the rules as written. Any creature of good alignment has at least a faint good aura. It's just that while an 11th-level NG fighter has a moderate good aura, an 11th-level paladin has an overwhelming good aura. The only game difference is that the paladin's aura lingers after his death for 1d6 days instead of 1d6 minutes, and evil clerics of 5th level or less would be stunned for 1 round if they tried to use detect good on the paladin.
But, faint or overwhelming, you'd still show up on the radar just as easily. That's why paladins can cast undetectable alignment when they reach 7th level. The only issue I have is that paladins should have a lawful aura as strong as their good aura. They are, after all, paragons of both.
I know that, my point is that the ability is rather pointless and yet at first level it's part of three abilities, none of which is really enough to make the class worthwile. Just because the ability does effectively nothing now doesn't mean that it can't do something in Pathfinder. For those people hung up on the naming convention I even changed the name of the feature so you'd get it and Aura of Good can continue to be the worthless lump of words on your character sheet it is now. Still I think it's silly to have to give him two auras at first level when you could just add the abilities from aura of protection to aura of good and be done with it.
Aura of Good... I'd rather see it as having more of an out of combat effect myself. As it stands now, it has little flavor, and no substance.
Rather than turning it into a tangible field of holiness bestowed upon the paladin by his deity, I think it would be more interesting as an intangible aura, that effects beings in a psychological way. The Paladin in a sense, could have this aura of goodness surrounding him such that some beings are inspired simply being in the presence of such a good person, while others feel somewhat ashamed, and would be more likely not to lie or do ill. In effect, it could perform a couple of functions: the Aura of Good could give allies a +1 morale bonus on certain rolls (perhaps even attack rolls), as well as give penalties to individuals who would do something that the Paladin would be opposed to. Simply put, it could be "The Paladin gains a +2 diplomacy, and sense motive checks vs. individuals in his aura of good, and individuals receive a -2 to bluff and intimidate checks for instance.
Plus, I like the fact that it gets away from the SLA feel of the Protection from Evil effect and gives the Paladin a little out of combat boost.
Thoughts?
Just to piggy-back onto my previous post, maybe at higher levels, the Paladin's Aura of good could begin to take on a more supernatural feel, in the effect of a constant Protection from Evil as is being discussed?
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Aura of Good... I'd rather see it as having more of an out of combat effect myself. As it stands now, it has little flavor, and no substance.
Rather than turning it into a tangible field of holiness bestowed upon the paladin by his deity, I think it would be more interesting as an intangible aura, that effects beings in a psychological way. The Paladin in a sense, could have this aura of goodness surrounding him such that some beings are inspired simply being in the presence of such a good person, while others feel somewhat ashamed, and would be more likely not to lie or do ill. In effect, it could perform a couple of functions: the Aura of Good could give allies a +1 morale bonus on certain rolls (perhaps even attack rolls), as well as give penalties to individuals who would do something that the Paladin would be opposed to. Simply put, it could be "The Paladin gains a +2 diplomacy, and sense motive checks vs. individuals in his aura of good, and individuals receive a -2 to bluff and intimidate checks for instance.
Plus, I like the fact that it gets away from the SLA feel of the Protection from Evil effect and gives the Paladin a little out of combat boost.
Thoughts?
Interesting, I like the idea, but for me the paladin is a martial class so if you give it something that doesn't boost his martial prowess then what you have is still a gimped fighter. Honestly even with the summoned creatures can't touch him it still leaves him lacking, but I'm counting on Smite Evil getting a major boost this time around (lord knows he needs it). Honestly though when you look at the class he needs something at first level. After your one smite per day your a warrior NPC class, and that feeling persists until level 4 as it stands.
Interesting, I like the idea, but for me the paladin is a martial class so if you give it something that doesn't boost his martial prowess then what you have is still a gimped fighter. Honestly even with the summoned creatures can't touch him it still leaves him lacking, but I'm counting on Smite Evil getting a major boost this time around (lord knows he needs it). Honestly though when you look at the class he needs something at first level. After your one smite per day your a warrior NPC class, and that feeling persists until level 4 as it stands.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think this ability (Aura of Good) needs to add to his martial prowess. That can solved by fixing the smite ability, and with spells IMO.
To add to this discussion:
Perhaps Aura of Good can be a springboard for interesting options to individualize each particular paladin much like what has been done to the barbarian with rage powers. I'd like to see some Aura Powers with mostly a defensive/enhancing flair. This is contrary to what I proposed a few posts earlier in making it more combat oriented, but again, it doesn't have to be. I see them more as always on abilities rather than once per round like rage powers, but it has the potential to make the paladin a much more interesting character to play mechanically.
Looking at the PFRPG paladin, you could take out all the Aura abilities it gains with level, and replace them with "Aura Power." Then list the them (Aura of Justice, Aura of Resolve) as powers and add a few more, thus allowing players to customize their paladin's particular Aura.
Again, I stress that they need not all be combat oriented... the options could include powers like +2 to diplomacy checks for all allies within 30', -2 to all opponents' bluff checks, etc.
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I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think this ability (Aura of Good) needs to add to his martial prowess. That can solved by fixing the smite ability, and with spells IMO.
Well unless you are saying move spellcasting to first level then no, spellcasting won't really fix the paladins problems until at least level 4
To add to this discussion:
Perhaps Aura of Good can be a springboard for interesting options to individualize each particular paladin much like what has been done to the barbarian with rage powers. I'd like to see some Aura Powers with mostly a defensive/enhancing flair. This is contrary to what I proposed a few posts earlier in making it more combat oriented, but again, it doesn't have to be. I see them more as always on abilities rather than once per round like rage powers, but it has the potential to make the paladin a much more interesting character to play mechanically.Looking at the PFRPG paladin, you could take out all the Aura abilities it gains with level, and replace them with "Aura Power." Then list the them (Aura of Justice, Aura of Resolve) as powers and add a few more, thus allowing players to customize their paladin's particular Aura.
Again, I stress that they need not all be combat oriented... the options could include powers like +2 to diplomacy checks for all allies within 30', -2 to all opponents' bluff checks, etc.
That is an interesting idea, and I support it. But the paladin does need something other that smite that applies to just his martial offensive side and not just giving others a boost. My playtesting shows that smite needs a major overhaul and I don't know if it will get it, so unless we add some more personal abilities to the paladin to attack with, he will still be woefully inadequate until at least level 5+
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!