Apparently after a long time of quiet Clark has come forward to talk a little about the GSL and the future of Necromancer Games.
You can read his original post here or for the link phobic:
Sorry I have been so quiet. Things are very up in the air right now. And no one is more aggravated with that than me. It has been about a year now that we havent put out a product. The market for 3.5 is all but dried up. Maybe Pathfinder's release will help, but that is still some time off. I intend to support Pathfinder when it is finalized. I trust and respect the people at Paizo. They are gamers and brilliant designers. They love D&D and have its best interests at heart. Luckily, when Wizards first took over D&D, they put a visionary gentleman named Ryan Dancey at the helm and he was able to convince the powers that be to release D&D 3E as an Open Game, thus essentially assuring that the game we all love could exist in that iteration forever. 3E and the d20 movement was a great time for gaming. A true renaissance, in my view.
Now we have the GSL. Right now, in my view, the GSL needs some major reworking or clarification to be usable. The bottom line, in my view, is that the GSL is a total unmitigated failure. And that is a shame. I have been one of the biggest vocal proponents of Wizards and I love Scott and Linae. I still do, big time. I am hopefull that we can find a way to change or clarify some of the issues with the license so that we can use it and create 4E products. You know that philsophically I believe in supporting the current version of D&D.
Trust me that I am working hard to try to resolve the GSL issues so that we can go forward. I'm optimistic that some changes can be made. Will they be enough to make the GSL usable? I sure hope so.
Please dont take this post as bashing Wizards. I am not doing that. I support Wizards. And if there is one thing that is clear from this process it is that, while I would have done it differently, they have always been great about listening to our comments and revising things based on our comments. That is a credit to them, for sure. And Scott and Linae continue to be amazing and, in my view, working hard to make the license usable.
So what will Necro do? I'll try to break things down by relevant topic:
So are you doing 4E? Well, right now I dont see 4E products in the immediate future from Necro without some changes or clarifications to the license. My hope is that I will be able to get what I need so that we can do 4E products. But as of today we have not adopted the GSL, we have not sent in our card accepting the license. And, unless there are changes or significant clarification, we won't be adopting it.
Necro and Paizo? I still very much want to work with them and they very much want to work with me. The problem is the GSL. Necro will definately be supporting Pathfinder when it comes out. If the GSL issues are resolved, Necro and Paizo will be bringing you some amazing products that we already have lined up and in the hopper. Seriously, there are several awesome products literally ready to go just awaiting the fixing of the issues with the GSL.
Tegel Manor? Right now, in my view, in addition to the problems the GSL has in general, it has specific additonal problems for a product like Tegel. I see the risk to Judges Guild, which wants to continue to make OGL versions of JG content and distribute our old Necro/JG products as well, as being too great to jeopardize permenantly, which the GSL does. But, you may say, Judges Guild doesnt have to adopt the GSL! That is true, but the GSL has some problematic provisions that make that partnership very difficult and uncertain.
What about that free adventure, Winter's Tomb? Can't you just do a free adventure? Its not happening. There is no way to "just do a free adventure" without adopting the GSL, which we have not yet done and wont do in its current incarnation.
So now will you release all that stuff for 3E? Doubtful. The market for 3E is not there. I expect Pathfinder to revive it, but that isnt going to be a full, public supportable system for some time. 3E remains viable for many publishers. But our plan is to up the production value on our products, which means they cost alot more to make, which means our margins are so small, that the current 3E market makes those products not feasible for lots of reasons I wont get into. I know there are many fans who say they will buy that stuff and would love to have it. Well, in a perfect world, we'd love to deliver it. But this isnt a perfect world and fan demand isnt the only factor--there are distributors and retailers and others who are not so excited about generic 3E now that 4E is out.
So bottom line it for me--what are you going to do? We are working with Wizards to clarify and/or change the license. If that works, we will release 4E material. If there are no changes, I dont see us adopting the GSL (absent some significant official clarification of terms of the GSL). We will support Pathfinder. But we will not just release OGL content from this point forward until Pathfinder is viable and we can support it.
How likely do you think it is that there will be changes? I am very hopeful that some significant changes or clarifications can be accomplished with the GSL.
I hope this helps answer some questions. Sorry for the delay. I havent had anything concrete to report. Heck, I still dont. But I figured I owed everyone an update.
Necro isnt going anywhere. We are trying to work to be able to get a usable GSL or other arrangment with Wizards to bring you the awesome 4E content we have planned. If that wont work, you will see us fully supporting Pathfinder. Our time off before we start cranking out new products may just be a bit longer than planned
Clark
As I said above, this is also being discussed in the 4e forum but I don't want to pollute their thread with the 3e/ Pathfinder specific stuff.
The cool news to me is the confirmation that Clark is planning on continuing to develop 3e stuff specifically for the Pathfinder RPG. This is great news and hopefully more 3PP will follow. Even better, I get the impression from this message that if the GSL does not change that he will be dedicating his efforts exclusively to Pathfinder RPG.
woot!
Pathfinder is the future.
Good and Bad news really, depending on your point of view. By attempting to kill the D20/OGL markent Wizards has, in effect nuked the industry. Non-D20 games will have a boom time of it as masses leave the editon wars to die hards on both sides.
I gave 4th a chance at Comiccon last weekend. I'll give my thoughts on it on an other post, I'll simply say while playable its a system that would benifit from the OGL mindset better then 3rd could have. 3PP simply have to tread far too carefully with GSL to really make it worth the time and effort. Some (Goodman) have taken the pill, others (Kenzor)are doing 4th products without the GSL (which to me is insane but I'm not a publisher and I'm just starting to understand the industry so maybe they know what they are doing.
The good news is that Pathfinder will do well with Necromacer Games doing product for them. Clark seems to understand, in a way that many other "big companies" do not that the industry can support both. The only major company doing so as far as I know is Mongoose, with the Conan/OGL which has a lot of good ideas for any fantasy setting.
The Good/Bad part of all this is of course we will see a lot less OGL product coming out. Good for are pocket books I suspect, and good in terms of quality as I thing Paizo and others will do a fine job with there products, bad that we lose a lot of creative work.
Still the bitter Iorny for fans on either side is that I think Paizo can in theory declare victory. They never had to defeat Wizards (which realisticaly wasn't going to happen, nor did they ever want that) but they did have to survive, not only have they they have thrived, and they have gained allies in the processs.
I just wished whoever said to the industry "May you live in intersting times" had just shut his mouth.
*Mouth drops open*
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WOW! Just Wow.
I really wasn't expecting this. I do admit, I hoped something like this would happen, but ... if I had to put money on it, I would have lost quite a bit today.
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This post is actually a bit depressing. Let me explain.
First off, although I have never met Clark, he comes across as a true champion of the game. He understands the business, and also understands what gamers are looking for. I have a lot of respect for him.
Clark has always made it very clear that he will support the latest version of D&D, which in his mind is 4th ed. he has always been very supportive of WotC. He seems to have a great relationship with WotC, which I think is a good thing. Now when he says that the GSL will not work for him, I take this as very bad news. If a strong supporter says this will not work, it is like a bucket of ice water, and it begs the question, where do we go from here?
I have always maintained that I think having 4th ed be successful was critical to the success of our hobby. What I mean by that is:
1) widely accepted by the fan base
2) well supported by 3P companies (like paizo, necro, etc...)
Having a restrictive GSL that no one can live with is really bad for the hobby. Ours is a small niche hobby, I do not see anything good coming from breaking up the fan base.
I do want to make a side point here. Our hobby is not just about playing, it is about creating. I think some folks in the industry miss this point entirely. When I think about how much time I spent playing vs. how much time I spent creating, well that is not even close. I have spent a lot more time designing and creating. That is part of the fun. So when a very restrictive GSL comes out, basically the enjoyment of the hobby is getting cut in half. The game exists for us to create, and I will go farther and say that that the sesire to create is in our DNA!
Ok, back to my main point. When I read Clark's post, I see him saying that to publish 3ed material is a non-starter. I agree with him on this one. It is just not feasible, end of story. It feels like he is leaning towards supporting Pathfinder, but he has some reservations, and I think there are some things to work out. I suspect his basic concern is that Pathfinder works for Paizo, but it may not work for Necro.
My wish was that Necro would be able to publish 4th ed & support Pathfinder. I am still hopefully, but it feels like the light at the end of the tunnel just got a little dimmer.
All in all, very sad news. :(
I agree with both of you. While I'm happy that he is planning on working with Paizo overall I am not happy that WotC forced this impasse. Clark, and quite a few other people in the industry seem to have a lot of faith in Linae and Scott. I don't follow the insiders in the industry closely and until 4e was announced had never really payed attention to who the 'players' were. So my only experience with Linae and Scott is a series of promises and disappointment.
I try to remain open minded but unfortunately for me WotC has made some product decisions with 4e that I just can't abide. The GSL is one of many for me. So happy in some ways that the GSL is so oppressive, otherwise Pathfinder RPG would have never been created. On the flip side it really sucks that D&D is getting fragmented.
I'm a supporter of 4e and pathfinder. No reason we can't have both. :)
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Good and Bad news really, depending on your point of view. By attempting to kill the D20/OGL market Wizards has, in effect nuked the industry. Non-D20 games will have a boom time of it as masses leave the edition wars to die hards on both sides.
Spot on...I, myself, had decided to go HARP (ICE's slick and easy answer to their old, and rather clunky, Warhorse, Role Master). I was a big-time RM guy from 1987-94 or so.
While I am a firm Pathfinder fan, it is taking a co-pilot spot next to HARP. I have been converting folks at a very astounding rate to try HARP, and I must say (With all love to Pathfinder), the -D20-ism' that has dominated my RPG mindset since the coming of 3E is gone.Not on topic at first glance, but I wanted to give folks a bit of a view from the perspective of someone who has gone the way of the above poster's statement.
-Uriel
PS:Oh yeah, try HARP, it's fun...and I'll be doing demos at Gencon.
;D
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There is a selfish part of me that just thinks - Pathfinder Tome Of Horrors, please!Although the GSL does seem to eliminate the idea of selling OGL and 4E products at the same time, one option I've never seen mentioned is that Paizo could purchase an OGL produt line, lock, stock, and barrel from another publisher who wanted to move into 4E products.
Obviously, I don't see Paizo doing that out of some desire to keep 3E alive, but it would seem to be a good way to keep products that they find critical in print - ToH is a good example.
Except for the part in his post where he refers to publishing tegal manor possibly restricting judges guild stuff.
Right now, in my view, in addition to the problems the GSL has in general, it has specific additonal problems for a product like Tegel. I see the risk to Judges Guild, which wants to continue to make OGL versions of JG content and distribute our old Necro/JG products as well, as being too great to jeopardize permenantly, which the GSL does. But, you may say, Judges Guild doesnt have to adopt the GSL! That is true, but the GSL has some problematic provisions that make that partnership very difficult and uncertain.
I'm fearing it's similar to the risks I voiced of the DCC line having a Freeport module in it. I know people have said it's not rational to assume the DCC module would suck Green Ronin into the GSL, but Clark seems to have similar fears about JG. Likely it would be the same issue with a Necromancer games 4th and a Pathfinder Tome of Horrors.
What really sucks for Clark is that he's out the $$ for teh 3.5 product he has but can't move (Slumbering Tsar pt 1, among others) and the 4/x product he was/is working on but now can't dare go forward. (ToH 4.x, Advanced player guide). Necromancer isn't his day job, but this would kill most publishers, and, marketwise, he's been off the radar for a year.
This might also doom a 4e Scarred Lands setting from Firey Dragon, for the same reason. WhiteWolf may not want their IP locked into a GSL either.
All in all, bad news all 'round.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm probably way off the mark, but it sounds like a "threat" to wizards. Change the GSL or Necro goes Pathfinder.
*In a perfect world we would have Necro making Pathfinder and 4th products.
Only if "If you don't stop trying to drive this bus off the cliff, I'm getting off!" is a threat.
Now here's an interesting thought. Paizo/Necro team is a given. How to best use that. Paizo releases the rules at GenCon '09 and Necro releases ToH Pathfinder at GenCon 09 where no SRD monster is left behind. That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.
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Now here's an interesting thought. Paizo/Necro team is a given. How to best use that. Paizo releases the rules at GenCon '09 and Necro releases ToH Pathfinder at GenCon 09 where no SRD monster is left behind. That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.
THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
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I don't think Paizo will contract out their core monster book to another company, even one as strong as Necromancer. The reason is that the PFRPG Core Monster Book is absolutely essential to the success of the PFRPG and Pathfinder AP. The core books have to be nailed at the highest level possible. I'm not saying Necromancer couldn't do that, but I would be willing to bet my bottom dollar that Paizo will do their core monster book in house. I do think tome of horrors can and will be reprinted in support of PFRPG, but Necromancer won't be doing the entire monster book. Aside from any other problems, Clark seems to want to hold off on doing any more products for either game until the problems with the GSL are resolved. I don't blame him on that one. As he points out very eloquently, the market for Necromancers products is very much 4e driven in the bigger distribution channels. So he needs the GSL to be a functional document. In the end it all comes down to WotC. They NEED to rewrite the GSL to make it usable for 3PP's. Candidly, I'm not sure why they made it so draconian in the first place. With the OGL, wasn't pretty much everyone making money on D&D? Why make it a death contract for any company that adopts it when the first OGL was so successful? I just don't get it.
I'm a supporter of 4e and pathfinder. No reason we can't have both. :)
While I'm on the Pathfinder side your are very much correct, sadly Wizards is of a differnt mind, and they are setting the terms of the Edition wars. Had GSL not been so restrictive I think Paizo would make support material, not Pathfinder mind you, but adv. and such. But with Wizards mind set I'm surprised anyone's going 4e.
I don't know if threat is the right word - Clark's attitude seems to sound more like a plead than a threat. "Don't make me go Pf only, please!" rather than "Change the GSL or else!"
I does sound like a Plead, in fact it has sounded like Clark has been pleading for some time now, for the most part to deaf ears. This is why Wizards is getting me angery. I was never going 4e, but I had no real issue with 4e because it was going to happen and that was that, but to force people who have done nothing but support Wizards the way they wanted to be supported to plead for a chance to support them in a way that does not put there bussines at risk simply stinks, sucks, or whatever other word you want to use for it.
As much as I'm glad that Pathfinder will get some love from Necro-games, and as much as I hope Pathfinder and Conan do well without Wizards, its also sad that companies are actually forced into the Ed.Wars. Espically the companies that supported Wizards the way Wizards wanted them to.
Then 4e players wonder why we are so angery.
I don't think Paizo will contract out their core monster book to another company, even one as strong as Necromancer. The reason is that the PFRPG Core Monster Book is absolutely essential to the success of the PFRPG and Pathfinder AP. The core books have to be nailed at the highest level possible. I'm not saying Necromancer couldn't do that, but I would be willing to bet my bottom dollar that Paizo will do their core monster book in house. I do think tome of horrors can and will be reprinted in support of PFRPG, but Necromancer won't be doing the entire monster book. Aside from any other problems, Clark seems to want to hold off on doing any more products for either game until the problems with the GSL are resolved. I don't blame him on that one. As he points out very eloquently, the market for Necromancers products is very much 4e driven in the bigger distribution channels. So he needs the GSL to be a functional document. In the end it all comes down to WotC. They NEED to rewrite the GSL to make it usable for 3PP's. Candidly, I'm not sure why they made it so draconian in the first place. With the OGL, wasn't pretty much everyone making money on D&D? Why make it a death contract for any company that adopts it when the first OGL was so successful? I just don't get it.
Its a long story, mostly Wizards fault. In short and yeah I'm skipping a lot here. Wizards makes 3rd, 3pp support in 2000. As with anything 80% was junk or the rules were a little off, but what was great was the universal system. If a monster CR was too low IYO you could adjust and move on. But 3pp were making better products then Wizards was. So 3.5 comes and kills the Industry. 3pp saw 3.5 as a warnding sales went down because no one thought that 3.0 stuff woud work with 3.5 (90% of it did work but the markent became too afraid to touch it). So the markent model began to change, before 3.5 I think only M&M had a full OGL system based on 3.0 it was an experitment, that everyone began to adopt. A good example is Mongooses B5 game which depended on 3.0 rules at first, it went OGL which only makes sense, but it was supporting D&D. Then they made a good low fantasy alternative with Conan ogl. Soon everyone was doing this except the companies that liked DnD (ie goodman, necro, paizo (though thats complicated)I'll even throw in settings like Midnight, and IK). Wizards didn't see that, they saw compies making OGL games and Pocket player guides which sold because they were laid out better then core books. Meanwhile they gave us some really boring books, well thats too mean they had some gems in there, but the edt. went to hell, and they didn't seem to handle their own system. And because 3pp made better new classes (Knight, Archer, Shaman)based off the core book, Wizards made more powerful classes, addding more and more stuff so we got Power Creep. Yeah Pathfidner is doing the same, but in response to the the final days of Wizards 3rd I think. So then we get 4e a whole new game really, and restrictive gsl, which hurts only the supporting companies as ogl companies have moved on or expand to other things. Willing to support 4e but not putting all the eggs in that baset.
In the end its all just a mess. Yeah I know you can add this or that to my little history, and there are eceptions, but basically thats what happaned. I'll be interesting in the coming years to hear stories about what the real thinking was in the halls of hasbro in 2007-2008. Of couse by the time those stories come out DnD will be a computer game.
So Necro is currently going to wait another year (assuming no change in the GSL) before releasing anymore content?
Also, assuming some Pathfinder product is the next thing Necro produces (starting next year), will Paizo be supplying them with the official final rule set long enough before Gen Con for them to get their products done and ready to go?
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Clark has always made it very clear that he will support the latest version of D&D, which in his mind is 4th ed.
And, in my mind Pathfinder is the "latest version". I will stick by my original ideals. I was sad to let my Necromancer purchases wane in the event they went with a game I don't intend to play. But I will most certainly be the first to ante up and support them again when I see the first Necromancer-Pathfinder product.
My very best wishes to Clark in keeping Necro alive and supporting what, in my opinion anyway, IS the new version of D&D.
-DM Jeff
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So Necro is currently going to wait another year (assuming no change in the GSL) before releasing anymore content?
Also, assuming some Pathfinder product is the next thing Necro produces (starting next year), will Paizo be supplying them with the official final rule set long enough before Gen Con for them to get their products done and ready to go?
I imagine the final changes to the Beta will have to be finished and off to the printers at least a couple of months ahead of Gen Con for the Hardcover to be ready by then. So they would have a little lead time if they wanted it. My guess is that since Clark has a good relationship with the Paizo guys, and since support from Necromancer for the Pathfinder RPG would be beneficial to Paizo, that they probably would try to get him a "close to finished" version of the final rules enough ahead of time that Necromancer could unveil a PFRPG support book by Gen Con.
All of that is raw speculation on my part though, and it also assumes that WotC maintains their current stance on the GSL and doesn't revise it significantly. Personally, I think it would be in WotC's best interest to make the GSL less restrictive to get that 3PP support. That said, a lot of the things WotC has done in marketing and building 4e from the "how we plan to support and sell it" side have been baffling to me. So who knows what will happen there. Here's hoping Clark can find a way to stay viable as a company while he is forced to not put product on the shelves, and that either WotC changes the GSL or Pathfinder RPG becomes a viable option for his company. I love a lot of the work Necromancer games has done, so I want them to be able to continue as a company. I really empathize with the tough situation they are in right now though.
So Necro is currently going to wait another year (assuming no change in the GSL) before releasing anymore content?
Also, assuming some Pathfinder product is the next thing Necro produces (starting next year), will Paizo be supplying them with the official final rule set long enough before Gen Con for them to get their products done and ready to go?
I imagine the final changes to the Beta will have to be finished and off to the printers at least a couple of months ahead of Gen Con for the Hardcover to be ready by then. So they would have a little lead time if they wanted it. My guess is that since Clark has a good relationship with the Paizo guys, and since support from Necromancer for the Pathfinder RPG would be beneficial to Paizo, that they probably would try to get him a "close to finished" version of the final rules enough ahead of time that Necromancer could unveil a PFRPG support book by Gen Con.
All of that is raw speculation on my part though, and it also assumes that WotC maintains their current stance on the GSL and doesn't revise it significantly. Personally, I think it would be in WotC's best interest to make the GSL less restrictive to get that 3PP support. That said, a lot of the things WotC has done in marketing and building 4e from the "how we plan to support and sell it" side have been baffling to me. So who knows what will happen there. Here's hoping Clark can find a way to stay viable as a company while he is forced to not put product on the shelves, and that either WotC changes the GSL or Pathfinder RPG becomes a viable option for his company. I love a lot of the work Necromancer games has done, so I want them to be able to continue as a company. I really empathize with the tough situation they are in right now though.
I would also imagine given the "backwards compatibility" feature that Necro could move ahead sooner ("close to finish" ver) than later without too much in the way of changes down the pipe.
So Necro is currently going to wait another year (assuming no change in the GSL) before releasing anymore content?
Clark has made it pretty clear elsewhere that Necro is a (profitable?) hobby for him and he puts bread on the table with his law practice. I'm not sure how many people work for Necro but I don't imagine he's got a bunch of people on a weekly payroll while they aren't publishing. Consider it a leave of absence for the company.
Now here's an interesting thought. Paizo/Necro team is a given. How to best use that. Paizo releases the rules at GenCon '09 and Necro releases ToH Pathfinder at GenCon 09 where no SRD monster is left behind. That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
Lisa, Clark, you guys (or gal, as the case may be) see this?
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Lisa, Clark, you guys (or gal, as the case may be) see this?That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
Uh, uh. Paizo wants to release its own MM.
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Uh, uh. Paizo wants to release its own MM.Lisa, Clark, you guys (or gal, as the case may be) see this?That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
I think there is enough material for two books:
a) A Paizo MM - monsters from their AP's, and through Qugust they have about 100. A year from now they should be pushing 150 new monsters
b) A Necro ToH MM - This would basically be a refresh of their earlier works, specifically designed for pathfinder in full color.
I think as long as the ToH has the Paizo Pathfinder "Official Product" badge on it, it should sell very well.
Regardless of what happens to the GSL, I hope that Necro does support PF.
CEO
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Uh, uh. Paizo wants to release its own MM.Lisa, Clark, you guys (or gal, as the case may be) see this?That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
As Joela said, we are planning to release our own Monster Book to work with the Pathfinder RPG. Now, that doesn't mean that a ToH for Pathfinder isn't possible. Erik and Clark have talked about a lot of potential products, but until we have some clarity on the GSL and Clark has made a decision about which way to turn with Necro's products, there won't be anything to announce. Once there is, you can bet you will hear about it first here on paizo.com.
-Lisa
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Chief Technical Officer
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I imagine the final changes to the Beta will have to be finished and off to the printers at least a couple of months ahead of Gen Con for the Hardcover to be ready by then. So they would have a little lead time if they wanted it. My guess is that since Clark has a good relationship with the Paizo guys, and since support from Necromancer for the Pathfinder RPG would be beneficial to Paizo, that they probably would try to get him a "close to finished" version of the final rules enough ahead of time that Necromancer could unveil a PFRPG support book by Gen Con.So Necro is currently going to wait another year (assuming no change in the GSL) before releasing anymore content?
Also, assuming some Pathfinder product is the next thing Necro produces (starting next year), will Paizo be supplying them with the official final rule set long enough before Gen Con for them to get their products done and ready to go?
Keep in mind that our other August 2009 releases will use the Pathfinder RPG rules, so that means that the rules actually have to be finalized well before the "ship to printer" date. We don't have a precise timeline yet, but we do intend to make the finished rules available to other publishers in a timeframe that will allow at least some of them to get compatible products to Gen Con '09.
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Wow.
That's pretty magnanimous, and I hope to see it happen.
When I read Pres Man's comments I suspected a veiled accusation - WotC didn't allow other publishers to see the material in time for Gen Con, and people were angry - if Paizo did the same, people should be equally angry with them.
Of course, Pres Man didn't say anything of the sort, but I just had that as an impression. In any case, with Paizo as the 'small fish', I wouldn't have that kind of expectation, but I'm very glad if they get the support of other companies and share the product with them.
Paizo really will be the inheritor of the D&D crown then. When I was extremely loyal to WotC, I was at least happy they were sharing their system with other companies. The fact that someone could make a product that they saw the need for (or I did) was truly inspiring, and I think that is why 3.5 was the best version of D&D so far.
I truly do believe that Pathfinder will be the spiritual inheritor of 3.5, and will be the 'real' D&D. Of course, when it supplants it, people will say Pathfinder and it won't have to be said that it is the 'true D&D'. It will just be Pathfinder and everyone will know what that means.
So, I'm pretty happy that concessions to other publishers will be made. It's hard to believe that anyone else could improve on Paizo's work - but I'm sure they can expand on it. I'm looking forward to what comes up the next three or so years. At least, I'm cautiously optimistic.
I have to say since the whole 4th/Pathfinder thing has been going on, I have taken a lot more looks at third party work. I used to just buy Wizards stuff along with and Dungeon and Dragon.
This is indeed a surprise!
The Advanced Player's Guide though is swimming free. There's a thread at ENWorld about how Ari "Mouseferatu" Marmell has the Guide materials that he wrote and is looking for a home.
I have to say since the whole 4th/Pathfinder thing has been going on, I have taken a lot more looks at third party work. I used to just buy Wizards stuff along with and Dungeon and Dragon.
Good for you! Wizards put out some excellent books for 3rd edition, but so did the 3rd party publishers. Just looking at my bookshelves, I see Tome of Horrors 1 - 3, a bunch of Dungeon Crawl Classics, Advanced Bestiary, Denizens of Avadnu, the Farscape RPG, Midnight, Blackmoore, the Babylon 5 RPG, Darwin's World, True20, Reign of Discordia, Oathbound, Necromancer Games adventures, the Book of Fiends - and that's just the creme de la creme. The 3PP stuff I have for 3rd edition outnumbers my WotC stuff 2 to 1, and I own about 2/3 of the WotC stuff released for 3rd edition.
Sure, not all of the 3PP products were wonderful in concept and design, but a number of them were superb. I'd also argue that a good amount of the innovation for the system originated outside of WotC.
I'd recommend continuing to check it out, and much of the good stuff can now be found for a low price through various retailers or on Ebay.
I have to say since the whole 4th/Pathfinder thing has been going on, I have taken a lot more looks at third party work. I used to just buy Wizards stuff along with and Dungeon and Dragon.Good for you! Wizards put out some excellent books for 3rd edition, but so did the 3rd party publishers. Just looking at my bookshelves, I see Tome of Horrors 1 - 3, a bunch of Dungeon Crawl Classics, Advanced Bestiary, Denizens of Avadnu, the Farscape RPG, Midnight, Blackmoore, the Babylon 5 RPG, Darwin's World, True20, Reign of Discordia, Oathbound, Necromancer Games adventures, the Book of Fiends - and that's just the creme de la creme. The 3PP stuff I have for 3rd edition outnumbers my WotC stuff 2 to 1, and I own about 2/3 of the WotC stuff released for 3rd edition.
Sure, not all of the 3PP products were wonderful in concept and design, but a number of them were superb. I'd also argue that a good amount of the innovation for the system originated outside of WotC.
I'd recommend continuing to check it out, and much of the good stuff can now be found for a low price through various retailers or on Ebay.
Couldn't agree more also look for R&R Excalibur. While I found that most offical wizards stuff was good, at lest in terms of feats, spells and artwork, the best classes and most interisting and well crafted material has always been 3pp.
In the end it all comes down to WotC. They NEED to rewrite the GSL to make it usable for 3PP's. Candidly, I'm not sure why they made it so draconian in the first place. With the OGL, wasn't pretty much everyone making money on D&D? Why make it a death contract for any company that adopts it when the first OGL was so successful? I just don't get it.
The OGL was good for the RPG industry as a whole, including WotC. The GSL seems to have been designed to be good for WotC, first and foremost.
Corporate mentality pretty much comes in two varieties: make money by selling a great product or make money by reducing competition to your product. One thing that happens when a corporation increases in size is that the second mentality tends to be more prevalent. Also, a strong "not invented here" mindset develops. So, large corporations start to spend more time attempting to force other companies out of the market or limiting their ability to sell a product (through advertizing, pressure on distributors, etc.) and modifying their product to be more proprietary and work less well with other companies' products.
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I intend to support Pathfinder when it is finalized. I trust and respect the people at Paizo. They are gamers and brilliant designers. They love D&D and have its best interests at heart. Luckily, when Wizards first took over D&D, they put a visionary gentleman named Ryan Dancey at the helm and he was able to convince the powers that be to release D&D 3E as an Open Game, thus essentially assuring that the game we all love could exist in that iteration forever. 3E and the d20 movement was a great time for gaming. A true renaissance, in my view.
After all the Pathfinder adventures and their referencing of Necro products within, I can only imagine their great respect for Clark's company to innovate and invigorate that which has long been "tried/tired and true, medicority". Pathfinder teamed with Necromancer would truly change the industry in a way WotC never envisioned, creating a new industry that puts the game as the most important focus.
WotC's vision seemed to be driven by "new ideas in medium" but has already been falling apart in the big scheme (Gleemax). WotC wants to be electronic like the game consoles have become with their ability to tap into the internet and create an environment that keeps everyone coming back as it would a home for your "id". That was their "grandiose" vision to bring the game to the electronic world. Creating a 4.0 in my opinion was more to start a base point to begin software work that would bring the gamers to the internet, and Gleemax was to become a household name like "Sony" or "Wii". Well, those companies have hundreds of millions to spend on such ventures and they would never go half-way if they can avoid a ruined reputation. The fact that WotC was attempting this on their own steam was rather naive of them. Gleemax was a titanic failure, but this insepid vision has cost everyone as the posters above have said. As WotC missteps around the electronic world, the real game continues to grow right here.
I hope Clark and Necromancer can survive this interim period. I really don't see Paizo letting them go under. It would seem that Paizo owes a lot to Necro in their usage of their products and how it facilitates their ability to tell excellent stories. That I feel ensures that Necro would benefit highly from a relationship that would augment and better Pathfinder. Without a doubt, if Necromancer came out with sources that Paizo used in Pathfinder, or if they were handed some heavy duty mechanics for lifting Pathfinder to a more fleshed out rules level, I would buy those volumes in a heartbeat. Sure, Pathfinder Tome of Horrors would be a must buy, but that would not be the only purchase I would make from Necromancer Pathfinder.
Necromancer, I salute you. May you find your niche with Pathfinder and may it be more beneficial than you thought possible.
Cheers,
Zuxius
Good and Bad news really, depending on your point of view. By attempting to kill the D20/OGL market Wizards has, in effect nuked the industry. Non-D20 games will have a boom time of it as masses leave the edition wars to die hards on both sides.
While I am a firm Pathfinder fan, it is taking a co-pilot spot next to HARP. I have been converting folks at a very astounding rate to try HARP, and I must say (With all love to Pathfinder), the -D20-ism' that has dominated my RPG mindset since the coming of 3E is gone.
I can somewhat agree with the above, I do like the pathfinder adventures, but I just don't want to play DnD anymore, mostly due to DM burn-out ;<
As replacement games we've been playing Dark Heresy and last week we tried Traveller, both games have no use for the D20 ;>
Tomorrow, 4e is on the menu..... (Can't say I can approach it with an open mind though).
I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.
I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.
Per his posts, Clark has always seen Necromancer as a "Judges Guild"-like clone that supports the current version of D&D.
For him to come over to Pathfinder whole cloth is likely not something that he's willing to do - at least not right now.
However, if the execs at WotC are too blind (or simply don't care) to see the value that he can bring them, then they deserve his abandonment, IMO.
I love Necro's stuff, so anything we can get for Pathfinder is a big plus to me.
I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.
Give it some time. Did you see the part about "Erik and Clark are talking" in Lisa's post? This isn't about commitment. This is about finding ways to work together when two companies produce similar products (adventures).
I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.
It is not that WotC doesn't want to do business with him, it is that they want to do it on their terms. There is a difference. He is free to do business with them right now, like Goodman Games is doing. But he has certain things he want in the relationship that conflict with what WotC wants, thus the problem.
Keep in mind that our other August 2009 releases will use the Pathfinder RPG rules, so that means that the rules actually have to be finalized well before the "ship to printer" date. We don't have a precise timeline yet, but we do intend to make the finished rules available to other publishers in a timeframe that will allow at least some of them to get compatible products to Gen Con '09.
Since GenCon items have to be to the publisher in June, I'd assume the RPG rules need to be finalized in March or so.
Also, how does one qualify as one of these 'other publishers'?
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What really sucks for Clark is that he's out the $$ for teh 3.5 product he has but can't move (Slumbering Tsar pt 1, among others) and the 4/x product he was/is working on but now can't dare go forward. (ToH 4.x, Advanced player guide). Necromancer isn't his day job, but this would kill most publishers, and, marketwise, he's been off the radar for a year.
But you know who's to blame for that? Clark. Not WotC. All he had to do was look around at some of the criticism and "worst-case-scenarios" to realize that it wasn't all going to be sunshine and lollipops with 4e. He made what he thought was a good business decision (which, if the OGL was going to be progressed on to 4e, probably would have been... but if you couldn't see a more restrictive, exclusive licence coming then... well, you were just not really paying attention I think).
I can't believe I'm appearing to defend something WotC. I just think that it's important to realize that this was a conscious decision that Clark made without nearly enough concrete information and in the face of years of anecdotal evidence and speculation that said it was a bad idea.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What really sucks for Clark is that he's out the $$ for teh 3.5 product he has but can't move (Slumbering Tsar pt 1, among others) and the 4/x product he was/is working on but now can't dare go forward. (ToH 4.x, Advanced player guide). Necromancer isn't his day job, but this would kill most publishers, and, marketwise, he's been off the radar for a year.But you know who's to blame for that? Clark. Not WotC. <snip>
Oh I never meant to blame WotC for Clark's bad investments. He took a gamble and it didn't pay off. Thus 'sucks for Clark'. It sucks for me, because Slumbering Tsar is in limbo, ToH 3.5 only exists on PDF, and Judges Guild stuff is also idling. I don't think we need to take a collection (or request a government bailout program) to help him with his losses.
OTOH, releaseing ToH 3.5 and Slumbering Tsar trilogy as a 3.x book would allow me to, um, contribute, to his bottom line.
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What really sucks for Clark is that he's out the $$ for teh 3.5 product he has but can't move (Slumbering Tsar pt 1, among others) and the 4/x product he was/is working on but now can't dare go forward. (ToH 4.x, Advanced player guide). Necromancer isn't his day job, but this would kill most publishers, and, marketwise, he's been off the radar for a year.But you know who's to blame for that? Clark. Not WotC. <snip>Oh I never meant to blame WotC for Clark's bad investments. He took a gamble and it didn't pay off. Thus 'sucks for Clark'. It sucks for me, because Slumbering Tsar is in limbo, ToH 3.5 only exists on PDF, and Judges Guild stuff is also idling. I don't think we need to take a collection (or request a government bailout program) to help him with his losses.
OTOH, releaseing ToH 3.5 and Slumbering Tsar trilogy as a 3.x book would allow me to, um, contribute, to his bottom line.
I think the issue is that the distribution houses will not support 3.5ed material (businesses do not want dead inventory that will not move). If they will not carry it, sales out basically goes to 0, regardless of the fact that there could be fans who actually want the material. From Clark's perspective, the choices are: go to 4th ed, or get out of the business. Sticking with 3.5 is not a viable option (no distribution support). With Pathfinder, there is now an additional choice that was not present before, but that will push the release date for new products by almost a year.
Since Bill & Clark have other jobs, they have time to work through the GSL mess to see if an agreement can be worked out. Right now it is not looking good.
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Uh, uh. Paizo wants to release its own MM.Lisa, Clark, you guys (or gal, as the case may be) see this?That would be the official MM, and it takes some of the work load off the Paizians, and the players get a MM on the day the game is released.THAT would be a good synergy there.
I think that combo would be very well received, in fact. It also makes good business sense as well.
As Joela said, we are planning to release our own Monster Book to work with the Pathfinder RPG. Now, that doesn't mean that a ToH for Pathfinder isn't possible. Erik and Clark have talked about a lot of potential products, but until we have some clarity on the GSL and Clark has made a decision about which way to turn with Necro's products, there won't be anything to announce. Once there is, you can bet you will hear about it first here on paizo.com.
-Lisa
Lisa - thanks for the post. I remain optimistic that as long as Erik and Clark, and the rest of the team are engaged in conversation, good things will happen. I realize that there is still plenty of time, as next year's GenCon is a year off, and a lot of things can happen before then.
But, as a fan, the wait is brutal!
I think the issue is that the distribution houses will not support 3.5ed material (businesses do not want dead inventory that will not move). If they will not carry it, sales out basically goes to 0, regardless of the fact that there could be fans who actually want the material. From Clark's perspective, the choices are: go to 4th ed, or get out of the business. Sticking with 3.5 is not a viable option (no distribution support).
But Pathfinder products on the shelves now are 3.5 and will remain so for a year. My FLGS here in NYC says that his D&D customer base has divided with some going 4e and some staying 3.5.
With a Paizo imprint on Necromancer products, couldn't said books appear in the same channels Paizo is reaching now? Or am I misunderstanding the situation?