In old D&D, different races just meant that white people came in all shapes and sizes. One thing I like about the Pathfinder art is that almost none of the non-human races could truly be called "white." Merisiel is sort of lavender, Lini is kind of a greenish-yellow and I'm not sure about Harsk, but he's definitely a different color than Valeros.
Out of 5 players, two of mine are black males and two are white females. I only have 1 white male player. If the art gets overly white-male-centric, it starts to get a little embarrassing for me.
A good fantasy world understands this. Having a white and black halfling in the 4.0 PHB only makes sense if both these racial types exist and can be explained. To me, just pick one color and be happy about it. Same with the fake medieval settings we get, pick a racial identity and stick with it. There is a reason minorities exist in any culture, many were not native and were either enslaved or are part of a smaller community established as say a trade mission or from a past invasion. Pandering to any group is dangerous. It really only works in the United States anyway, in Japan, as an example, the rules are different as there’s is an established culture thousands of years old versus our which is a lot younger for a select number of Americans, not the...
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Pick one color and be happy with it?
So pockets of Half-elves living among a Human community is fine.
Pockets of Halflings living among humans is fine.
Pockets of Half Orcs living among humans is fine.
Pockets of non-whites living among humans. WRONG.
Okay, got it.
Why would there have been ethnic diversity? Travel in the time of LotR was extremely difficult. Chances are good you'd never leave your direct surroundings unless you were a trader, and if you lived in Europe (ie where the book was basically set), there'd really be no reason for you to even know other races existed unless you sat in the tavern listening to stories... or fought them in a war.
I'd been thinking about that since I read Monte's article. The thing is, D&D explicitly allows teleportation, magic carpets, and even planar travel. I'd be VERY surprised to NOT find a mixture of ethnic types in any major city of Galarion you'd care to name, except where massive cultural xenophobia is present.
Howard was always more interested in portraying the corruption of "civilized" men as the worst threat, and they were inevitably white European types, constantly betraying each other for some perceived advantage.Like most of the degenerates in this thread who plainly demonstrated how perversely they get off by "murdering the White guy" in art. Guess Howard was right about civilized people "betraying each other for some perceived advantage ($$$) as this thread amply demonstrates. Further, if people do not identify with their particular ethnicity or Gender then why do people claim to feel excluded if their particular group is not depicted on the cover art?
Not sure what point you're trying to make, I think you might have missed a word or something in there. Please redefine. It seems as if you're saying that you agree with the Capt. Whitebread idea. I'm not sure what you mean exactly, sorry. Though, it's not so much "murder the white guy as murder the pc that you were forced to include and thus by proxy the marketing guys idea.
To the poster who responded to the topic of the black male lead.
I'm sorry we misunderstood each other, and began discussing two different things.
Okay, Okay, Blade is kinda portrayed as a psycho, but again I'll give you blade. Mace is not the lead, The Rock is too vague as an example because he's done many roles so I'm not certain to which you're refering but I'm certain that he's not the "Star hero" in the majority of his role.
Further I'm not entirely sure if he's black, not saying he's not just that I'm not completly familiar with him. I would think he's hispanic or pacific islander maybe, to look at him.
Shaft is from the blaxplotiation era, reimagined by black directors and producer and thats like saying "There are black leads in all of spike lee's or any made-by-black-people movies."
Axel Foley, okay I'll reluctantly give you axel, though a part of me wants to then say were talking about hero's and there's a huge difference between my list and yours.
Genre.
Finally I dont' expect paizo to fix all the wrongs of society, I'm just pointing out that its not really diverse if you're using the same acceptable tactics as everyone esle.
Ember ~Seelah - female human paladin (black and female, bravo) rolleyes.
Black females are more acceptable than black male because they're slightly less fringten and can still be ultimately conqured sexually so thats what gets used then the get a doube thumbs up by people who don't get that White male patiarchy and white male racism historically go hand in hand. I think thats what all the lynchings were about.
However, I do applaud Paizo for what they DO, which is make cool black guy NPC's, a fair number of'em and for a design team that doesn't actually have black people working there its a huge accomplishment, thank you paizo. You live in the 2st century.
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Like most of the degenerates in this thread who plainly demonstrated how perversely they get off by "murdering the White guy" in art. Guess Howard was right about civilized people "betraying each other for some perceived advantage ($$$) as this thread amply demonstrates. Further, if people do not identify with their particular ethnicity or Gender then why do people claim to feel excluded if their particular group is not depicted on the cover art?
If you think wanting to kill an iconic because someone in marketing forced a lousy image on you as "degenerate" and "betraying", then that is how you classify it.
I might call it slightly petty at worse, but note that an author's revenge is a dangerous thing to invite in the first place.As for character identification, there are two issues at work:
1. Appealing to the majority of the audience; aka "Why there is a white man on the cover"
2. Recognizing the existence of the remainder of the audience; aka "Why you can have an "ethnic" man as the star and still make a bajillion bucks at the box office"
It is not that you must have everyone depicted in every role, it is that there is more than just one "racial" type out there, and never showing anything but one of them will eventually drive people away. That is exaggerated when you wind up depicting members of others racial types in nothing but a negative manner in order to play up your main character. Years ago I stopped by the White Wolf booth at a convention and talked casually with the guy there. He noted that for all White Wolf was breaking new ground, there he was, a black guy, working for a company whose products included two groups of black vampires, both of them utterly evil. He recognized the overwhelming irony of the situation.
You can have diversity without having a quota, and you can have character identification without it always being tied to race or sex.
The metal arm critique seems pretty silly. What about Steve Austin, the various bionic women, the various terminators (those could actually use some racial diversity), Theros Ironfield, Darth Vader, Luke and pre-vader Anakin (hands only), Forge (edit: hand only), Commander Steel, Metallo, the cyborg superman, the major from Ghost in the Shell, Cable, Donald Pierce (X-man villain), and others?
Men(and women) with metal arms are a comic, fantasy and scifi staple, not a "role for the black guy".
Will Smith's character from I,robot
I forgot about him in the initial list I did get Jaxx though. Forge ahh I forgot bishop another black guy with a metal arm.Thats two more.
Okay and most of those people you listed are full conversion cyborgs and androids.
However, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they do not represent 50% of the race or gender that they belong to do they?
edit: Theros Ironfield was a black character also. Please don't as it most peoples natural inclination to dismiss what I say as out of hand. Just consider it for a second before you decide to oppose the idea or call it a silly thought.
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I'd been thinking about that since I read Monte's article. The thing is, D&D explicitly allows teleportation, magic carpets, and even planar travel. I'd be VERY surprised to NOT find a mixture of ethnic types in any major city of Galarion you'd care to name, except where massive cultural xenophobia is present.
That's a fair point for D&D, but BlaineTog was talking about LotR, which had a much lower magic level and no teleportation that I know of. Otherwise that whole trip to Mordor probably would have been a little easier...
@ Samuel - which two groups of vampires are the evil, black ones? The only one that comes to mind that would fit that mold would be the Assamites, but they seemed to have a more Middle Eastern flavor to me (though their skin did get darker as they got older IIRC).
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[@ Samuel - which two groups of vampires are the evil, black ones? The only one that comes to mind that would fit that mold would be the Assamites, but they seemed to have a more Middle Eastern flavor to me (though their skin did get darker as they got older IIRC).
It has been so long since I looked in those books . . .
I believe they were the Assamites and the Setites. There could have been another group instead of the Assamites, but I am blanking at the moment.And to note, the Setites were truly evil and then some, moreso than even the most venal "white European" vampire clan.
Why I am thinking of the convention panel from Chasing Amy right now?
"What's a Nubian?"
I'm going to risk some flame and just point out that Drizzt is black.. :)
This thread is officially MADE OF WIN!
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Anyone interested should check out Nyambe: African Adventures by Atlas Games and Svimohzia: The Ancient Isle for Kingdoms of Kalamar for some great d20 African-themed fantasy stuff. Both present lands diverse in culture and degrees of "civilization," plus varied humans and humanoids of both sexes in all roles, most of whom (but not all) have dark skin. The white folk who do show up tend to be visitors or have some other reason for being there, but they are few and far between. Both have great artwork, too.
Anyone interested should check out Nyambe: African Adventures by Atlas Games and Svimohzia: The Ancient Isle for Kingdoms of Kalamar for some great d20 African-themed fantasy stuff. Both present lands diverse in culture and degrees of "civilization," plus varied humans and humanoids of both sexes in all roles, most of whom (but not all) have dark skin. The white folk who do show up tend to be visitors or have some other reason for being there, but they are few and far between. Both have great artwork, too.
So... go back to africa in other words, right? I don't quite think thats the answer, now I'm kidding of course, and thanks but to a degree it's like the african version oriental adventures, yeah?
Interesting... but not iconic.The Drizzt thing got me thinking How many types of elf are there in pathfinder? The are 3 in fourth ed.
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Pick one color and be happy with it?
So pockets of Half-elves living among a Human community is fine.
Pockets of Halflings living among humans is fine.Pockets of Half Orcs living among humans is fine.
Pockets of non-whites living among humans. WRONG.
Okay, got it.
I don't think that's what he was saying.
If you're playing a campaign among the pale Snow Barbarians of the northern wastes, there's no point in insisting on having a dark-skinned character in your party for diversity's sake (although it might be interesting to have one).
Similarly, if you're playing a campaign among the dark-skinned warriors of the equatorial plains, there's no point in insisting on having a lily-white character in your party for diversity's sake (although again it might be interesting to have one).
If you're playing a campaign in a country that's a crossroads of different north-south/east-west trade routes and is melting pot of cultures and races (say), it makes sense to see a party of mixed origins, naturally.
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How is that nobody has mentioned Roy Greenhilt, leader of the Order of the Stick, yet? He's black, he leads an adventuring party, and he has both hands.
But yeah, I know what dude is talking about. Outside of black created media (movies financed and created in the black community, like Spike lee's films, or John Singleton's early work), black women are definitely "safer" and get used far more often than black men. And when black men do get used, it's frequently as either a) the buddy to the real (white) hero, or b) the magical negro character.
The magical negro is a term coined by Spike Lee, it refers to a black male character who has incredible magical powers that exist only to allow him to help a white man achieve his goal. Many movies feature God portrayed as a black man but in the role of the magical negro, like Bruce Almighty and it's sequel with Morgan Freeman as a black god who uses all of his power to help white dudes figure out why their lives suck. Morgan Freeman also played a character who was essentially the magical negro in the Costner version of Robin Hood, where he played the magical moor who is devoted to Robin of Locksley for no apparent reason. it's not to be confused with just any old black character with magic powers. Storm in the X-Men, and Callisto in the Pirates movies are not examples of the magical negro, since they benefit themselves from their powers.
Frequently when you think the black guy is the hero, if you pay attention he's not. Like the Beverly Hills Cop movies. Alex Foley is basically a criminal who snuck his way onto a police force. he breaks all the rules, he cheats, he swindles, he's basically a con man and grifter. He's not a straight hero, he's a very bent hero. Black guys get shoved into that role a lot -- think of Martin Lawrence, Chris Rock, Chris Tucker.
There are a handful of major big name black actors who get cast as leading men/heroic characters in movies -- Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Will Smith -- and its easy to come up with strong black character associated with those actors. Now try to think of some NOT associated with those actors. It gets harder. So you have roles created for established actors who worked their way up the system, but far fewer movies being made that introduce newcomers as the hero.
Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.
If Paizo does do more iconics, I'd like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.
(Also: Psst, I totally get what you're saying about the black guys with metal arms thing. I've seen that trope done to death. I wonder if it's somehow connected to the John Henry myth, the man with arms that could drive steel like a machine?)
I kept meaning to mention Roy kept getting side tracked.
Thank you Gailbraithe, Amen!
I don't think that's what he was saying.
If you're playing a campaign among the pale Snow Barbarians of the northern wastes, there's no point in insisting on having a dark-skinned character in your party for diversity's sake (although it might be interesting to have one).
Similarly, if you're playing a campaign among the dark-skinned warriors of the equatorial plains, there's no point in insisting on having a lily-white character in your party for diversity's sake (although again it might be interesting to have one).
If you're playing in a country that's a crossroads of different north-south trade routes and is melting pot of cultures and races (say), it makes sense to see a party of mixed origins, naturally.
Magic. There's magic.
Thats a reason for anyone to be anywhere. Now NOT for the sake of diversity because there are things like that that actually happen.Happens with High tech too.
I was visiting some friends i Ireland, you know who I say there?
A Guy from Mexico City, what was he doing there? He was a priest. Didn't get to much into it but I didn't want to ask what a catholic priest was doing in a hot spot for religious terrorism. I just kept rolling after a few words with father gonzalez or whatever.
My point, diversity happens. It would happen more if people could be like those guys in jumper and just get there, without paying for gas
you would definately have an asian girlfriend or a norweigan buddy or two...
Think Magically. There's also a host of shape changing critters who could be anyrace they want, when they want.
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... but to a degree it's like the african version oriental adventures, yeah?
Interesting... but not iconic.
I see your point. My intention was to provide some examples of Blacks in diverse roles in fantasy, not just the stereotypical Savage, Sidekick, Reformed-Criminal, etc. But you're right, these are not mainstream nor are they iconic. Don't underestimate the value of having a well developed homeland, though. Once a person comes from a place, in particular a place with detailed history and cultures on par with any other place, it's a lot harder to ignore her. Sure Nyambe and Oriental Adventures can be niche games, but stick them in Oerth or Golarion and you Black and Asian characters just got a lot more meaningful.
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If Paizo does do more iconics, I'd like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.
I was thinking about what class would be beneficial and honestly every single one can be looked at as a stereotype.
Wizard=magical negro
Fighter=thug with weapon
Rogue=fast talking con artist
Barbarian=inferior race
Bard=Micahel Jackson
Cleric=Jeremiah Wright
Paladin=terrorists
ok maybe druid, monk, ranger, sorcerer safest I can think of.
If Paizo does do more iconics, I'd like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.I was thinking about what class would be beneficial and honestly every single one can be looked at as a stereotype.
Wizard=magical negro
Fighter=thug with weapon
Rogue=fast talking con artist
Barbarian=inferior race
Bard=Micahel Jackson
Cleric=Jeremiah Wright
Paladin=terroristsok maybe druid, monk, ranger, sorcerer safest I can think of.
Funny.
No, Paladin is pretty safe, so is fighter = Roy is never a thug with a weapon. I think it's pretty clear that it can be done, it just isn'tWizard I think is less the Magical-negro than sorcerer because at least he's somekind of "learned man" but I do see your point. However, it's pretty clear that when the term is discussed it does NOT literally mean black man who uses magic (though it seems that way I admit) it means black man as a guide basically the "npc" Dm prop.
Druid/ranger as long as you don't put them in a jungle with spears and lion animal compainons sure. And never turn the Druid into a "Gorilla" so I think thats out.
No wait. . . Ranger is safe.
Jeramiah Wright? Damn. I never thought he'd reached sterotype status.
Clerics aren't like that in Pathfinder, besides he's a villian,
JW is the slick atalking rogue, is there a demagouge prc?
Actually,
I can't tell if you're being funny or not. Still if they had made that Paladin a Black man instead of a black women instead of the double quota they'd have said goads more about thier initiative.
However, despite your implication that "you can't make anybody happy" I'm sure as long as you didn't go into the more obvious sterotypes the existance would be enough.
I read that they intended to kill barret in FF, I mean instead of tifa. Not only that but that to most of the people in the project it was a forgone conclusion. There were like "so how does barret die?" and the head creator was like "What? Barret doesn't die, tifa dies"
Rest of cast "HUH?"
Unless they did a George Lucas on FF7 since I played it, Tifa doesn't die either. Aeris does.
Granted, that was, what, 15 years ago? Amazing I still remember those names, actually...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If Paizo does do more iconics, I'd like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.I was thinking about what class would be beneficial and honestly every single one can be looked at as a stereotype.
Wizard=magical negro
Fighter=thug with weapon
Rogue=fast talking con artist
Barbarian=inferior race
Bard=Micahel Jackson
Cleric=Jeremiah Wright
Paladin=terroristsok maybe druid, monk, ranger, sorcerer safest I can think of.
Depends what you do with them. A black man who gains his power from some kind of primal blackness or connection with shamanistic animal totems kind of plays to the stereotype, sure. On the other hand, a black man who is acceptable because he has forsaken his roots and broke away from a life of poverty is a stereotype of a different kind.
I trust Paizo to give us intelligent characters that go beyond the stereotypical.
edit: Theros Ironfield was a black character also. Please don't as it most peoples natural inclination to dismiss what I say as out of hand. Just consider it for a second before you decide to oppose the idea or call it a silly thought.The metal arm critique seems pretty silly. What about Steve Austin, the various bionic women, the various terminators (those could actually use some racial diversity), Theros Ironfield, Darth Vader, Luke and pre-vader Anakin (hands only), Forge (edit: hand only), Commander Steel, Metallo, the cyborg superman, the major from Ghost in the Shell, Cable, Donald Pierce (X-man villain), and others?
Men(and women) with metal arms are a comic, fantasy and scifi staple, not a "role for the black guy".
I'm glad you caught this one, I was just about to point it out. I actually think a lot of people miss that part when they read the Dragonlance books.
I read that they intended to kill barret in FF, I mean instead of tifa. Not only that but that to most of the people in the project it was a forgone conclusion. There were like "so how does barret die?" and the head creator was like "What? Barret doesn't die, tifa dies"
Rest of cast "HUH?"
Unless they did a George Lucas on FF7 since I played it, Tifa doesn't die either. Aeris does.
Granted, that was, what, 15 years ago? Amazing I still remember those names, actually...
Thanks to the gentle giant.
to Bolongo... HEY! Yah got me. It was a long time ago wasnt' it *weep* lol
Yeah I trust paizo to do it right as well, IF THEY WERE TO DO IT,but I'm just didn't think they were aware of it. The "black woman" option is just a good way of saying the "black man" is unacceptable in these types of situations.
Its so bad to ask what I'm asking that people get infuriated when ever it gets brought up, the change the subject and avoid the issue but we do live in a "women as objects" society so making a black male there threatens the heirarchy that's why the Black sorcerer (metal arm and all) was such a shock and a pleasant one.
Its just sad is all, maybe since paizo is the new D&D they'll make a stand. *shrug* maybe I'm asking to much.
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Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.
Not a good example, people went to see the robots, not Shia.
It's funny, I see the point being made but doesn't everyone get stereotyped? How about Asian men? How many movies can you think of with an Asian lead that did not involve martial arts or samurai? My Asian friend always gripes about that.Heck, I'm sick of Irish characters always being drunks in so many shows and movies.
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Killing off Captain Whitebread is indeed a time-honored tradition in WotC books. I've written my fair share of art orders for those books, and have made sure to have Regdar get blasted or ruined or murdered a few times myself (such as at the end of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk). It's a fun little semi-secret D&D tradition!
If you look at the Dungeonscape book, it suggest the theorum that 'Only Lidda gets out alive.' Which makes sense when you consider the proof:
Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.Not a good example, people went to see the robots, not Shia.
It's funny, I see the point being made but doesn't everyone get stereotyped? How about Asian men? How many movies can you think of with an Asian lead that did not involve martial arts or samurai? My Asian friend always gripes about that.
Heck, I'm sick of Irish characters always being drunks in so many shows and movies.
So am I, in that case you're right. However, those things are NOT the biggest taboo, the black man is... Its not right when it happens to any ethnic group. I got sick of the black dude dying first and the irish (dwarven) drunk right about the same time actually.
However african-american are the second bigeest ethinic group in the country, and anytime they could put a black man they put a black woman. (and please don't argue about he gonzales's because that statistic included Black hispaics, people who are of african descent but were enslaved into spanish speaking countries and migrated to the u.s.) and they...Don't show the black male. Cripple the black male Kill the black male or make him the villian.Roy being the best example of what we need. Wait they killed him too didn't they. I can't wait to see how he comes back. -M
p.s. Callous Jack why are you so against the idea?
Do NOT want a black male Hero in pathfinder?
Do you think I and the people who agree with me are just reading to much into the facts? The whole armed man thing and what not?
p.p.s. Where's Eric Mona?
p.p.p.s Ethnic caucasians are ethnics too, and boy do we overlook that.
people use ethinic as "urban" or non white american and thats wrong but that hass nothing to do with the overall problem, they'd just find another word...
I also enjoy the artwork in Pathfinder quite a bit.
I honestly had not taken notice of the gender/racial bias that was taking place or the replacement of poor Tordek. I was honestly more pissed off that as an regularly active player I was being bombarded with a NEW edition (3.5) only 2 years after the 3.0 release.
Simple question, but figured I would ask...
Is the Dwarf in the race line-up also Harsk? That is my favorite piece of art in the whole book... him and his big ole grin posing in his boxers! LMAO! All the others are just kinda static like they are doing it because they have too, he is enjoying it.
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p.s. Callous Jack why are you so against the idea?
Who said I was against anything? Some of you points are not very well thought out (or typed out) as I had no idea what you were meaning in regards to Hispanic priest in Ireland or the bionic arm issue, which is a perfect case of a mountain made from a molehill btw. I do find it hypocritical that you basically dismiss the Asian stereotypes because the black man seems to have some sort of monopoly on discrimination. Not to mention that Hispanics technically are the largest ethnicity in America now and they could use the same complaints. Is there anything at all representing them in Golarion?
I have no problem with a black male iconic, just please stop acting like they and they alone deserve the spotlight.
The magical negro is a term coined by Spike Lee, it refers to a black male character who has incredible magical powers that exist only to allow him to help a white man achieve his goal.
Spike Lee is an angry angry man who goes out of his way to be in the spot light, I do my best to either ignore his one-sided rantings or to simply laugh. “Magical Negro”? LOL, so angry!
Many movies feature God portrayed as a black man but in the role of the magical negro, like Bruce Almighty and it’s sequel with Morgan Freeman as a black god who uses all of his power to help white dudes figure out why their lives suck. Morgan Freeman also played a character who was essentially the magical negro in the Costner version of Robin Hood, where he played the magical moor who is devoted to Robin of Locksley for no apparent reason. it’s not to be confused with just any old black character with magic powers. Storm in the X-Men, and Callisto in the Pirates movies are not examples of the magical negro, since they benefit themselves from their powers.Frequently when you think the black guy is the hero, if you pay attention he’s not. Like the Beverly Hills Cop movies. Alex Foley is basically a criminal who snuck his way onto a police force. he breaks all the rules, he cheats, he swindles, he’s basically a con man and grifter. He’s not a straight hero, he’s a very bent hero. Black guys get shoved into that role a lot -- think of Martin Lawrence, Chris Rock, Chris Tucker.
There are a handful of major big name black actors who get cast as leading men/heroic characters in movies -- Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Will Smith -- and its easy to come up with strong black character associated with those actors. Now try to think of some NOT associated with those actors. It gets harder. So you have roles created for established actors who worked their way up the system, but far fewer movies being made that introduce newcomers as the hero.
A few to add to the bolded list above...
You also mentioned: Morgan Freeman & Eddie Murphy(Axel Foley)Don't forget Samuel L. Jackson & Lawrence Fishbourne
I wish Djimon Hounsou would get a leading role I enjoy his support roles, he is stuck being a "magical negro". (Gladiator, Tomb Raider2, etc.)
Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It’s unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won’t identify with the character.
I honestly think that would've had great possibilities. Sadly, the tone of the movie would be much much different and likely have drastically swung to extreme drama("the hood") or extreme comedy(any given Wayan's movie"), because of stereo-typical writing/casting these days. Example being, Anthony Anderson who was in the Transformers movie and *sigh* fits Spike Lee's definition as a super hacker.
If Paizo does do more iconics, I’d like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.
I have always imagined a fighter or more spcifically gladiator type being a black male. Not because they're typically slaves either *rolls eyes*, but because it would make for some amazing artwork and a character who hasn't really been in the spotlight... Trident & Net, Piece-meal Armor.
I have done an African inclined druid in the past who was primarily based on Shapeshifting (Wildshape/2nd Ed. "Shifter"). The newest incarnation of that character was American Indian (3.5 Ed. Complete ...). Both were incredibly fun to play and draw being an artist, unfortunately they would probably be categorized as modern day stereo-types of how people think tribal people look and act. I enjoy playing druids and attempting to come up with new themes.
(Also: Psst, I totally get what you’re saying about the black guys with metal arms thing. I’ve seen that trope done to death. I wonder if it’s somehow connected to the John Henry myth, the man with arms that could drive steel like a machine?)
Oh Mortal Kombat 2+ ... Jax was my favorite character. However I'm thinking it was due to the strength and slamming people about violently, similar to Zangief(favorite) in Street Fighter2. The wrestling character style just appeals to me, not so much the appearance.
SHUT THE F*#K UP!!!
<relax... just quoting!>
Why I am thinking of the convention panel from Chasing Amy right now?
"What's a Nubian?"
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Nope. Different dwarf.Simple question, but figured I would ask...
Is the Dwarf in the race line-up also Harsk?
You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.
p.s. Callous Jack why are you so against the idea?
Who said I was against anything? Some of you points are not very well thought out (or typed out) as I had no idea what you were meaning in regards to Hispanic priest in Ireland or the bionic arm issue, which is a perfect case of a mountain made from a molehill btw. I do find it hypocritical that you basically dismiss the Asian stereotypes because the black man seems to have some sort of monopoly on discrimination. Not to mention that Hispanics technically are the largest ethnicity in America now and they could use the same complaints. Is there anything at all representing them in Golarion?
I have no problem with a black male iconic, just please stop acting like they and they alone deserve the spotlight.
*sigh* Okay, maybe I haven't been clear, let me address your points, as I'm really not trying to be hostile but don't appreciate being called a hypocrite either.
1. The Mexican priest, my point was regarding hogarth I believe, not you, but my point was that in the fantasy realms we play there are things like "teleport" and "Overland flight" and thats why you run into various races in all kinds of places. The Mexican priest was not hispanic but Mexican from Mexico city, and flew there, and we don't even have things like teleport.Point: once the means exist you will meet people of all types in all places.
2. The bionic arm. It's a real fantasy stereotype for "minorities" someone pointed out to me that Chad is actually hispanic.
Point: You dismissed that as nonsense without even considering it. It is a weak argument to to say "nuh-uh" that's silly. Consider it please.
I note that Jordy had bionic eyes. btw, but still.
50% of black males in the field of the sci-fi/fantasy genre and you still think I'm making mountains out of mole hills? Seriously, you're just writing it off without thinking, been doing it the whole time.
3. Blackmans monopoly on discrimination.
I didn't dismiss it, I said I was sick of it.
I also stated that when this is brought up the racist segment of our population would use the tactics you're using to do anything but feature a black male hero.
Point: You're doing it. Doing your best to divert the issue. I even specifically referenced the hispanic census statistic, and I reiterate that that was based on having the last name gonzalez counting you as hispanc, which, means Black hispanics are absorbed into that statistic. I.e. Its a trumped up figure.
4. Callous Jack does not have a problem with a black male iconic.
Okay, stop acting like you do, then. You make that statement in the same statement as "lets use hispanics, they have a bigger claim" thats hypocritical and an attempt to cloud the issue.
5. I'm not saying Black men have a monopoly on discrimination, I'm a sociology major and a Deputy sheriff in Tx I know a LOT about the subject of discrimination from the sheer number of times I've been accused of it. I do however know right from wrong and all the things I've said are valid. They do avoid using the black male heros, and anytime you bring it up people do what you're doing to block the thought so there its on the table. I leave it in paizo's hands.
Magic. There's magic.
Thats a reason for anyone to be anywhere. Now NOT for the sake of diversity because there are things like that that actually happen.
Happens with High tech too.
I was visiting some friends i Ireland, you know who I say there?
A Guy from Mexico City, what was he doing there? He was a priest. Didn't get to much into it but I didn't want to ask what a catholic priest was doing in a hot spot for religious terrorism. I just kept rolling after a few words with father gonzalez or whatever.
Certainly. But if I were reading a book that took place in Ireland and I didn't notice any Mexican characters, I wouldn't necessarily consider that discriminatory against Mexicans; that might just mean that there aren't very many Mexicans in Ireland.
Creative Director
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You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.
I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.
The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.
SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Odd, as a side note, that the word "ethnic" seemingly only applies to non-whites nowadays.
Methought that "Caucasian" was an ethnicity.
Whiteness like maleness is made invisible when it is considered the norm. For example, a hockey player who is a woman is a female hockey player. A hockey player who is inuit is an inuit hockey player. A white, male hockey player is a hockey player. But you knew that already.
I'd been thinking about that since I read Monte's article. The thing is, D&D explicitly allows teleportation, magic carpets, and even planar travel. I'd be VERY surprised to NOT find a mixture of ethnic types in any major city of Galarion you'd care to name, except where massive cultural xenophobia is present.
I was talking about Lord of the Rings.
However, the thing you have to remember about plane shifting and teleportation is that all those sorts of fast travel are really friggin expensive. Only the very rich and the very high level could afford to use magic to travel, and even then they probably wouldn't very often. I'd estimate no more than 2% of the population even has the capability of using those methods, much less regularly. No doubt there would be slightly greater diversity, but only slightly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'd been thinking about that since I read Monte's article. The thing is, D&D explicitly allows teleportation, magic carpets, and even planar travel. I'd be VERY surprised to NOT find a mixture of ethnic types in any major city of Galarion you'd care to name, except where massive cultural xenophobia is present.Such as among the Shoanti? :P Belor Hemlock is black, but other shoanti are clearly represented as at least having caucasian features. I'm all for diversity where it makes sense, but proud, insular barbarian cultures are going to tend to have distinctive, mostly universal physical traits.
'Insular'? I thought the Shoanti had been colonized to some degree? We would expect to see greater racial diversity amongst a colonized people. I'm not familiar with all the published history of Golarion so far but to the extent that there has been massive migrations, cataclysms, war, colonization, exploration, and trade their is going to be greater genetic diversity.
You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.
The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.
SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!
James Jacobs, wow I'm so stupid, the editor in chief I should have noticed that before. I should go back and re-read your posts what do you think about it? I wasn't sure if this was in response to the Black Man or the dwarf. So I just wonder, it maybe too politically charged now... *sigh*
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My apologies, Midnight-v, I'm not trying to be hostile either.
1. Hogarth pretty much covered this in his reply.
2. The bionic arm. Cable, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Steve Austin, Ash Williams...it's not just black males. Then there is Red Falcon, Hancock, Black Panther, Morpheus, Blade, Mace Windu, Frozone, Lando, Sisko, Tuvok... I just don't see the issue.
3. I could be wrong about this but the U.S. census has the person mark a box to show their ethnicity, it doesn't just go by a last name such as Gonzalez.
4. I'm not acting like I have a problem, you're basically tagging me (and anyone else who raises a question) as against the issue.
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This is a major point of contention for some literary types. Not only does Tolkein NOT describe any ethnic variation aside from "caucasian elf" and "caucasian Numenorian", he actually goes out of his way to describe many of the more sinister human races/nations who join with Sauron as black or middle eastern (the Corsairs, the elephant riders).Why would there have been ethnic diversity? Travel in the time of LotR was extremely difficult. Chances are good you'd never leave your direct surroundings unless you were a trader, and if you lived in Europe (ie where the book was basically set), there'd really be no reason for you to even know other races existed unless you sat in the tavern listening to stories... or fought them in a war.
Because where else was Sauron going to find mercenaries? His neighbors knew he was evil (they had fallen for his lies one too many times), but the people farther off hadn't had dealings with him before, or at least not as much.
Good discussion so far, thanks everyone!
Sauron didn't need mercenaries, Tolkein made him need mercenaries. He could have summoned elementals, or simply had more orcs. And conveniently, every "evil human people" was of non-caucasion origin. He could have had rampaging hordes of pseudo-russians or something of the like. The issue is not the constructed world of Middle Earth (which has logical consistency, I agree), the issue is the man who made it they way he did and why.
I also agree, LotR is supposed to be Europe at War (and is very Euro-centric). And people in real-life Europe, his audience, did know about racial diversity. I am not saying that LotR needs ethnic diversity (it was a product of its time, where people were not as concerned with such things). What a reader today should consider is how everyone who isn't white IS portrayed when they DO appear. The elves were from far to the West, they could have been based on Amerindians as far as Tolkein was concerned. Also, consider how all the non-Euro peoples fall for Sauron's lies, even without the rings power.
"Sure, let's believe the guy with the big smoking volcano who exists as an incorporeal spirit and commands legions of orcs." By the time of LotR, Sauron had long dropped his "nice guy" routine.
I'm going to risk some flame and just point out that Drizzt is black.
Taking that joke with a bit of seriousness, one could argue that Driz'zt is "safe" (I noticed he is on the cover of the new FRCS) because he is not part of his "black" culture - he gave that up to pursue a life on the surface, forsaking the way of his people (in a way, becoming more "white"). Super-duper over-analyzing, but there it is.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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However, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they do not represent 50% of the race or gender that they belong to do they?
You're claiming that half the black people in comics, scifi, and fantasy have metal arms?
Lordie.
I can't even get started on the counter examples for THAT one. But just for B5, Firefly, DS9 here's some I can recall with no robotic limbs - Sisko, Benjamin, Worf, Doctor Franklin, Book, the assassin in the movie, Jason Ironheart. Not finding any artificial-limbed black characters on those shows, but quite possible I've missed some.
I appreciate that making a list of black people with cybernetic limbs can make it SEEM like it happens all the time, but as I demonstrated with my brainstormed list (not anywhere near an exhaustive one), there's an ample number of non-black limb replacements out there too.
Interesting note on Theros - my mental picture of his art is apparently not matching the books. Can't be bothered to look for the picture I recall, tho.
I wouldn't object to the idea that scifi (and fantasy, and comics) has been very white-male centric. It's an issue I have with the genre myself. I just don't think your artifical limb thesis holds water.
I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration.
You can change the art style all you want, but you absolutely must bring back that dwarf model. He fills me with giggles. Oh, and the gnome, too, for great cuteness.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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From the RotRL player's guide:
"[The Shoanti are] a turbulent people adhering to traditions unchanged in hundreds of years...The Shoanti once held all of Varisia as their own, sharing it only with the Varisians, whom they coldly accept as distant cousins. The coming of explorers and colonists from Cheliax changed all this, though, sparking an age of bloody warfare."
Yeah, well, that's what the Shoanti say about themselves but of the major Shoanti NPCs, how many are getting a little interracial nookie?
My apologies, Midnight-v, I'm not trying to be hostile either.
1. Hogarth pretty much covered this in his reply.
2. The bionic arm. Cable, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Steve Austin, Ash Williams...it's not just black males. Then there is Red Falcon, Hancock, Black Panther, Morpheus, Blade, Mace Windu, Frozone, Lando, Sisko, Tuvok... I just don't see the issue.
3. I could be wrong about this but the U.S. census has the person mark a box to show their ethnicity, it doesn't just go by a last name such as Gonzalez.
4. I'm not acting like I have a problem, you're basically tagging me (and anyone else who raises a question) as against the issue.
Let me do this backwards as it more poignant.
4. I'm sorry for tagging you. Its not my intent, nor anyone else who disagree's I'm not a facist or anything. I don't like my idea being dismissed out of hand is all. Your orignal post came down like 30 seconds after mine. To me it seem that "it's not an issue" came out of your mouth before the issue ever got resolved.
3. About the census, the problem with that is that "MOST" people haven't actually read the census report. Have you? Most people heard a report on several news reports and the associated press that stated that Gonzales had replaced smith as the most common name in America. So we can go and pull the census reports out if you have the effort in you. Futher, in other places like Puerto rico and south america it is highly frowned upon to be considered "black" most blacks from there want to be considered "Hispanic" so thats what the mark down.
2. The bionic arm.
Okay, 1/2 of all black heroes are represented with a bionic arm or other part.
Take all white chracters. Imagine that for a second. ... ....
this might take a sec...
.... A - Z
Now make 50% them bionic. Do you see that? You turn on star trek and 50% of the crew are borg. You turn on star wars and 1/2 of everybody has cybernetic parts. Its ridiculous. And it's real.
Its not like I'm saying ONLY black people get the bionic parts but that the bionic dudes make up a disproportionate chunk of them.
Further some of those characters are side kicks and magical negros.
Hancock started all this with the whole thing in my universe with the whole "he did not kiss Charlize Theron" he even says he does but he doesn't he gets thrown through an building and a refigerator before it happens apparently.
1. How are those spells expensive? Wizards will be going everywhere doing everything at any time. Now only 2% of adventures are going to have the capability to do that but you live in that circle of people and you are going to encounter them. Especially when there are only so many ancient prophesies and super weapons out there.
To a degree I do feel like you're acting as if you have a problem. I'm not saying you do. I'd already outlined an attack for an argument you chose to use. Again I apologize I dont' think you some kinda Klansman or a nazi or anything like that. Most of your ideas I'm sure are good. However, I say are you for or against a black male non-stereotypical hero?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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My understanding from talking to James Jacobs is that the Shoanti are the descendants of the slaves of the Thassilonians, even if the passage of years have muddled things considerably. They are therefore more of a cultural group than an ethnicity, and are in fact made up of several ethnicities that have mixed over the centuries.