Director of Brand Strategy
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I have found in my playtest that the seemingly simple addition of at-will cantrips has made some very large impact on how the game plays. Not in terms of balance, but it's noticeable. The main one is that having "message" as an at-will spell allows the party to effectively split up into smaller parties much more than has ever been safe in the past. My players frequently go off on their own, knowing that they can still be in constant combat, and they're not conserving the resource. It seems the days of killing PCs who go off on their own are over :(
I have found in my playtest that the seemingly simple addition of at-will cantrips has made some very large impact on how the game plays. Not in terms of balance, but it's noticeable. The main one is that having "message" as an at-will spell allows the party to effectively split up into smaller parties much more than has ever been safe in the past. My players frequently go off on their own, knowing that they can still be in constant combat, and they're not conserving the resource. It seems the days of killing PCs who go off on their own are over :(
The range on message is only 100ft + 10ft/level. I'm sure if the characters are that close they could just yell instead of using a spell if they needed to communicate.
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I'm running a game right now on these boards, where each character can speak to each other player telepathically, and at any distance.
They split up all the time. It's great.
At-will 'Message' is the least of your worries.
How does the Tinkerers Union feel about at-will 'Mending'?
Portable showers for everyone with at-will 'Create Water'.
And at-will 'Detect Magic' is actually very useful! If your PC's are constantly waiting until the end of the dungeon to cast the damn spell, they're going to miss out on a lot of interesting things along the way.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The range on message is only 100ft + 10ft/level. I'm sure if the characters are that close they could just yell instead of using a spell if they needed to communicate.
Hmm. Seems in the process of playtesting everything else, I wasn't concentrating on double-checking that the ranges my players were giving were correct. They were using it at range of 400 ft. and I never checked. Oh, they will die now!
They were using it at range of 400 ft. and I never checked.
Ahem. Perhaps you should delete this thread if the basis for it was your mistake.
Mending: Not everyone in every town has a mage on hand. And in addition, may INT based professionals are actually mages. Not just that, but in this instance, I would most certainly as a Tinker, run out and buy a Wonderous Item that reproduces the mending effect on command, and use it to make my job easier, not complain that mages ruined the economy.
Create water: Showers that last a few seconds at a time seem like a bit of an arduous task for a cleric who directly manipulates the natural order of the universe with divine power. If you can't DM past your players creating free showers by spending all day casting orisons, I suggest you play a rousing game of Sorry instead of a role playing game.
Detect Magic: My party's usage of detect magic has differed 0% from their previous usage. The thief/illusionist casts detect magic constantly and always has. But now he actually uses his 9 other cantrips despite that! Every single time any treasure of any sort was found, someone cast detect magic. If your ultimately clever dungeon designs are foiled by detect magic, see the above suggestion regarding the board game Sorry.
Oops! I landed on blue! Back to start!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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They were using it at range of 400 ft. and I never checked.Ahem. Perhaps you should delete this thread if the basis for it was your mistake.
If your ultimately clever dungeon designs are foiled by detect magic, see the above suggestion regarding the board game Sorry.
Oops! I landed on blue! Back to start!
You'll have to talk to one of the Paizo staff to delete a post, much less a thread, after a certain amount of time. Hope you can ignore the thread and move on, since it will still be here.
As for Sorry, I never much liked the game. I never claimed that my DMing was harder as a result of the spell's use, just that a major tactic that people had avoided in D&D since its earliest days seemed to my group to be missing now. I'm glad that my player was mistaken in the range, and that this error has been discovered, as it will keep that fun element of knowing you're in danger if you're alone in the game.
It's criticism like this which does not aid the playtesting process. Had I not been mistaken in the range of the spell (long vs. medium) this might have been a worthwhile thread (or it might not have been). In either case, I am only trying to provide feedback for the betterment of the development of the game, as requested. I'm sorry for wasting your time with it.
How does the Tinkerers Union feel about at-will 'Mending'?
Portable showers for everyone with at-will 'Create Water'.And at-will 'Detect Magic' is actually very useful! If your PC's are constantly waiting until the end of the dungeon to cast the damn spell, they're going to miss out on a lot of interesting things along the way.
Awesome idea about the Tinkers.
The best spell? Prestidigitation at will! Even though nobody takes ranks in Prof: Cook, everything tastes great. Everybody can get clean without having to strip for the spell caster. Clothes getting cleaned and dried in snap. Chilled drinks in the jungle and hot tea on the tundra. You can dye your hair at will.
The Laz-e-boy spell, mage hand, is always on.
Yoda, I have noticed my party's bard has been very excited about using message at will. In a few instances he used it to coordinate party members in combat without alerting the enemies they were facing, and loves using it in bars and inns to talk to people from across the room.
I personally don't like at-will Mending. Whats the point of damaging some magic weapon or suit of armour [from DM's point of view] if the PC's can just cast Mending continually until its fixed? And if you're the player you can now Sunder away and not worry about the hassle of repairing the mashed up loot.
I changed Mending so that it no longer mends anything Magical.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Mending only fixes ordinary rents and cracks in ordinary objects it will do absolutely NOTHING for magic items that have been sundered. That has always been the default ruling.I personally don't like at-will Mending. Whats the point of damaging some magic weapon or suit of armour [from DM's point of view] if the PC's can just cast Mending continually until its fixed? And if you're the player you can now Sunder away and not worry about the hassle of repairing the mashed up loot.
I changed Mending so that it no longer mends anything Magical.
I think this thread, while not necessarily what I had intended it to be, has brought to light the fact that a lot of people don't know the rules for 0-level spells. I guess many of us just never saw them in play except occasionally before the new rules came out, which I guess means that it was successful in getting these normally overlooked spells back into the game.
Mending only fixes ordinary rents and cracks in ordinary objects it will do absolutely NOTHING for magic items that have been sundered. That has always been the default ruling.I personally don't like at-will Mending. Whats the point of damaging some magic weapon or suit of armour [from DM's point of view] if the PC's can just cast Mending continually until its fixed? And if you're the player you can now Sunder away and not worry about the hassle of repairing the mashed up loot.
I changed Mending so that it no longer mends anything Magical.
Mending also only works on items that weigh 1 lb. or less, which means you'll still need Make Whole for a lot of repair tasks.
I like the concept of at-will cantrips, because they give wizards and sorcerers a touch of permanent "zing", that makes them a bit more special in a non-combat sense, and makes them something that regular joes watch out for. Such as using Open/Close on every single mundane door in town they need to walk through.
Plus Mage Hand at-will has literally hundreds of uses in home or at a dungeon.
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Yeah, but did you have to TELL them they didn't need to strip for that spell? *sighs*The best spell? Prestidigitation at will! Everybody can get clean without having to strip for the spell caster.
Yeah, don't spoil it for the rest of us!
"Why yes, you do have to take off your clothes before I can cast this spell!"
"Also, I require a pint of ice cream, um, as a Material Component, yeah, that's the ticket..."
If unlimited cantrrips are being abused, limit them. Pick some fairly high number (more than they used to get in 3.5) that allows them to be used frequently, but doesn't mean they cast one every round just to do it. Say their number of cantrips = their Intelligence, double the old number and add a bonuc for intelligence, or something like that. Whatever works. It is an Alpha afterall. Experiment. See what works / fits. And try not to get snippy with eachother people... I like my boards friendly :D
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So I had a neat post that got eated. I hate teh interweb...
Basically, almost any Cantrip, usable at will, could have significant effects, not just the 'obvious' ones like Cure Minor Wounds and Create Water.
Message? Imagine the ruler staring at you blankly, until he suddenly greets you warmly by name, his advisor across the room having just 'reminded' him of your name and the purpose of your visit, just like those politicians who stare blankly during debates, head tilted as their listen to their experts over their earpiece, and then hold forth on wonderfully detailed explanations of policy wonkery they personally known bupkiss about.
You're in the market, and the local beggars seem surprisingly well-coordinated as they move in. The guy on the roof of the local caravanserai is using message to get them all working on the same page. Are they just beggars? Pickpockets? The sultan's dreaded secret police? Rebels, in the midst of some daring plot? Cultists, hoping to kidnap a particular target for sacrifice to their dark patron?
You enter the basement below the butcher's market headquarters, and great slabs of meat hang on hooks, while clouds of fog pour down like water from barrels in the corners. The room is cold and you can see your breath. The head butcher boasts that he has a boy come around from the Academy once per day and pays him a gold sovereign to cast Ray of Frost on the barrels of water in the corners over and over until they are barrels of *ice.* They'll mostly melt over the day, but he'll be back in the evening to re-freeze them.
The stonemason is a wrinkled man, eyes perpetually watery from the harsh fumes of his work, as he uses acid to soften the stone before he shapes it into blocks or sculptures or bas reliefs. He's not much of a sorcerer, but his gift does allow him to call up Acid Splashes at will, and as a Conjuration (creation) spell with an Instantaneous duration, the acid he creates is *permanant,* affording him access to an endless supply of weak acid. It's only half as good as the stuff he could get from an Alchemist, but it's *free!* And he even does some 'acid-etching' on the side for the metalsmith down the road, in exchange for new stoneworking tools, from time to time.
The nervous young acolyte moves among the afflicted, one hand on the cloth over his face, as he tries in vain not to breath in the sickly stench of the plague victims filling the infirmary. Hearing the wracking cough of a woman to his side, he moves to her and implores his goddess to grant the woman Resistance to the contagion. He moves on quickly, as a man has started shuddering uncontrollably over by the door... [The temple has only so many Remove Disease spells available, and while a person would technically only need a single Resistance spell per day, within a minute of when they make their daily Fort save to shake the disease, the acolytes wouldn't have the slightest idea when that moment is, and would have to move among them (making Heal checks) looking for physical symptoms of the person's body being wracked by the illness.]
High Priest's Assistant. It sounded like a great position, but now he just wanted to be anywhere but following the old coot around, casting Guidance every time the curmudgeonly fart did anything. Oh, he's reading a book, cast Guidance (+1 Knowledge (arcana)). Oh, he's leading a rite, cast Guidance (+1 Knowledge (religion)). Oh, he's advising someone on a marital dispute, cast Guidance (+1 Diplomacy). Does he really think that the goddess wants him pestering her for help with *every single thing he does?* Why was he so jealous of the last assistant, always following him around, chanting prayers? If only he'd known that the poor girl was just casting Guidance over and over...
I don't think that many of those uses are devestatingly powerful. For guidance, you might as well had someone using aid another the whole day.
Resistance is good, but not really good enough to surpass the standard heal check in my opinion.
Message is good too, however you could just cast it a few times a day already with it's 10 minute/level duration. It isn't like this spell just lasts a round, you could have easily spent only a few messages during the entire day with a similar effect to having it at will.
So I don't think they are useless, I just don't thing they have a incredible boost in power by being usable all day as opposed to a small number of times per day.
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Message is good too, however you could just cast it a few times a day already with it's 10 minute/level duration.
I suspect that, like Create Water, any Cantrip that has a level-based effect should be cut down to a base effect / duration, like Guidance or Resistance. Instead of 10 minutes / level, it could just be 10 minutes. Instead of Create Water being 2 gallons / level, it could just be 2 gallons. To complete the idea, Prestidigitation would also become a flat 1 hour duration.
The 1st level druid in my first Pathfinder session used create water to get out of a pit trap. She kept failing the climb check and so just filled the pit with water until she could reach the edge and get out. I totally did not expect that.
She also was casting virtue over and over again when a battle was anticipated.
Then the wizard had trouble getting out of a chain that was attached to his foot. He used acid splash over and over again until it did enough damage to the chain for him to get away.
Also, even though the wizard had his spell component pouch and other items taken away, he was still using ray of frost on his kobold captors to good effect.
While lost in the woods, the wizard also used arcane mark often to see if he was walking in circles. The party was later able to find him by following the arcane marks using detect magic.
The 1st level druid in my first Pathfinder session used create water to get out of a pit trap. She kept failing the climb check and so just filled the pit with water until she could reach the edge and get out. I totally did not expect that.
She also was casting virtue over and over again when a battle was anticipated.
Then the wizard had trouble getting out of a chain that was attached to his foot. He used acid splash over and over again until it did enough damage to the chain for him to get away.
Also, even though the wizard had his spell component pouch and other items taken away, he was still using ray of frost on his kobold captors to good effect.
While lost in the woods, the wizard also used arcane mark often to see if he was walking in circles. The party was later able to find him by following the arcane marks using detect magic.
Sounds like some kind of limit is needed...although it must have takem one heck of a long time to fill up a pit at 2 gallons a pop. Still, if you've got nothing else to do and no limit on doing it...
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Darth,
Your examples here do nothing but further argue toward keeping at-will cantrips. The circumstance in which each was used was unique, and solved their particular problems in a manner that reflects the flavour of the character.
Sure, anyone can climb out of the pit, given infinite tries, but only a spellcaster who commands the power of nature can tell it to fill up with water, to get her out.
Thanks!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A couple questions borehd, if I may.
1) Was the rest of the dungeon in stasis while she was casting away? Did you take into account armor and weight penalties for the swim check? Did no one think to lower a knotted rope to her? Weights and measures was never my thing, how long would it take to fill the pit?
2) Was one extra HP really that overwhelming? Assuming that the party was scouting with their rogue, then I'd call this teamwork.
3) Acid spash doesn't bypass hardness. And again, I take it the guards were asleep?
4) Honestly I don't see an issue with this. He's a gorram wizard! He's at a disadvantage w/o the pouch, but with ray of frost online all day, he's not helpless. (As an aside, I do often take Eschew components as my human bonus feat, or play psions)
5) creative use of a cantrip. beats tearing his robes to mark trees all hallow.
I'm not trying to attack you personally, please don't take it as such. I'm just saying I feel there are rules already to handle the changes you present. Between that and a dynamic environment I don't think it's unbalancing.
There are also mundane methods of handling a lot of things handled by magic.
Personally, I like that my party's battle sorcerer is acid splashing everything, or tearing into things with her claws. I like that my sorcerer can choose to have a witchlight (dancing lights) follow him and scount. I like that my wizard can cast detect magic and sense items "Because I'm a wizard." I like that my bard can snap his fingers and have a trumpet at hand. It's magic, it's flavourful, and it's my favourite change in the Alphas so far.
Yeah, but did you have to TELL them they didn't need to strip for that spell? *sighs*The best spell? Prestidigitation at will! Everybody can get clean without having to strip for the spell caster.
Ah. Inexact language strikes again. No: you'd presumably take off your clothes for when the cleric casts "Create Water" showers. So it would be the cleric that would be mad at the wizard for prestidigitation.
Mending only fixes ordinary rents and cracks in ordinary objects it will do absolutely NOTHING for magic items that have been sundered. That has always been the default ruling.I personally don't like at-will Mending. Whats the point of damaging some magic weapon or suit of armour [from DM's point of view] if the PC's can just cast Mending continually until its fixed? And if you're the player you can now Sunder away and not worry about the hassle of repairing the mashed up loot.
I changed Mending so that it no longer mends anything Magical.
You need to read page 111 Alpha3 where it states the following..
This spell repairs damaged objects, restoring 1d4 hit
points to the object. If the object has the broken condition,
this condition is removed if the object is restored to full
hit points. All of the pieces of an object must be present
for this spell to function. Magic items can be repaired by
this spell, but you must have an equal or higher caster level
than the object for the spell to function. Magic items that
are broken (at 0 hit points or less) can be repaired with this
spell, but this spell does not restore their magic abilities.
This spell does not affect creatures (including constructs).
This spell has no effect on objects that have been warped
or otherwise transmuted, but it can still repair damage
done to such items.
Mending also only works on items that weigh 1 lb. or less, which means you'll still need Make Whole for a lot of repair tasks.
Also on page 111.
Effect
Range 10 ft.
Target one object of up to 1 lb./level
A couple questions borehd, if I may.
1) Was the rest of the dungeon in stasis while she was casting away?
It was in the forest. I rolled for wandering monsters about 6-10 times. Twice something came and attacked her and she was able to overcome it.
Did you take into account armor and weight penalties for the swim check?
She had leather armor and a +4 bonus to her Swim check.
Did no one think to lower a knotted rope to her?
She was separated from the rest of the party except an NPC which amusingly enough was also failing his climb checks
Weights and measures was never my thing, how long would it take to fill the pit?
I actually calculated it. A 10 X 10 X 10 pit holds 7,500 gallons of water and would require 3,750 castings of create water taking 6.25 hours. After about her 10 failed climb roll, she opted for this instead of my offer to let her take 20 with 3d6 points of damage (estimating she would fail by over 5 about 3 times).
2) Was one extra HP really that overwhelming? Assuming that the party was scouting with their rogue, then I'd call this teamwork.
It wasn't one extra hit point, it was about +5. The spell has no limit on the number of times you can benefit from it. She kept casting it on the fighter during combat as well so he was getting 1 hp a round.
3) Acid spash doesn't bypass hardness. And again, I take it the guards were asleep?
Acid and sonic attacks bypass hardness, unless I missed that Pathfinder changed it. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness
Guards were outside the room. He rolled high on his Stealth checks and they rolled low on Perception.4) Honestly I don't see an issue with this. He's a gorram wizard! He's at a disadvantage w/o the pouch, but with ray of frost online all day, he's not helpless. (As an aside, I do often take Eschew components as my human bonus feat, or play psions)
It does seem to be more in line with fantasy novel and mythical wizards who rarely resort to weapons. However, it changes the idea that wizards without spellbooks or material components or items are in serious trouble. It's not bad, just unexpected. P.S. I love Firefly too.
5) creative use of a cantrip. beats tearing his robes to mark trees all hallow.
It does and it turned out to be a neat idea. It was however, not something I anticipated.
I'm not trying to attack you personally, please don't take it as such. I'm just saying I feel there are rules already to handle the changes you present. Between that and a dynamic environment I don't think it's unbalancing.
Well, I think it is unbalancing but that its the DM/module side of things that needs to be fixed. I think Pathfinder needs a DM section that deals with how to compensate for the changes casued by unilimited 0 levels when using standard 3.5 adventures.
There are also mundane methods of handling a lot of things handled by magic.
True, but they all have a limitation based on finite resources. The 0 level spell like abilities can be cast an unlimited number of times. Not even material components are needed as far as I can tell. That fact alone causes changes. Take for example that a torch is worthless for its usual purpose to somebody that has light as a 0 level, whereas before it was useful when his slots/prepared castings were depleted. Enterprising low-level PCs can earn money by fixing things with mending or refilling waterskins with create water in hot climes.
Personally, I like that my party's battle sorcerer is acid splashing everything, or tearing into things with her claws. I like that my sorcerer can choose to have a witchlight (dancing lights) follow him and scount. I like that my wizard can cast detect magic and sense items "Because I'm a wizard." I like that my bard can snap his fingers and have a trumpet at hand. It's magic, it's flavourful, and it's my favourite change in the Alphas so far.
I mostly agree with you (of course it depends on the flavour of the campaign if you want your spellcasters to be using magic so casually). I'm just concerned that they have unintended results or create loopholes that some players exploit catching a DM without a good way to handle it.
<snip!>
I mostly agree with you (of course it depends on the flavour of the campaign if you want your spellcasters to be using magic so casually). I'm just concerned that they have unintended results or create loopholes that some players exploit catching a DM without a good way to handle it.
Give that your typical player is one of the most cunning and devious Shylocks when it comes to rules bending, this will always be an issue. No rule system will ever be so perfect that there are no loop holes or unexpected side effects :)
This is where you the DM comes in, creative use of spells or skills is definitely to be rewarded but if they are exploiting the rules to cheat then you should disallow it. It's the DM's job to make sure that the players are always enjoying the game and that the spirit of the rules are followed not just the letter.
The ability to create water an unlimited number of times would have far-reaching effects on the environment (less use of rain water and ground water for drinking supplies) and on societies (castles don't have to be situated near water to outlast a siege, deserts can be traversed easier, no wars for water, etc.)
I suggest adding a time limit to the 'at will' contrips. Maybe something like '6/hour' or something like that. The result being that a short rest will chage up the Cantrips again (so the Wizard ALWAYS has a couple Rays of Frost) during combat, but you can avoid the logistical issues of unlimited Lights and the world-bending issues of unlimited create water.
Also, I should point out that unlimited Orisions don't help Clerics nearly as much as unlimited Cantrips help Wizards. That's OK, Clerics are not supposed to be as spellcasty as Wizards anyway, but it's something to keep in mind when it's Cleric spells that are most game-bending when unlimited (Virtue, Guidance, Create Water, etc.)
The ability to create water an unlimited number of times would have far-reaching effects on the environment (less use of rain water and ground water for drinking supplies) and on societies (castles don't have to be situated near water to outlast a siege, deserts can be traversed easier, no wars for water, etc.)
If you read the other long thread on this subject, you can see my logic on why I contend that this is already the case in the 3.5 rules, and making this "at-will" does not make it any "worse" other than to bring it more to the forefront.
Any campaign that had even a modicum of magic that the assumed setting would have would already dash water concerns out the window as much as at-will cantrips would.
I won't go into great details... but basically: Continuous Magic Item of Create Water = 1000gp (500gp to make + 40xp), or Decanter of Endless Water = 9000gp if you need a faster supply + weapon capability.
These are currently either easily created or standard equipment in 3.5 ruleset... before at-will cantrips.
If you read the other long thread on this subject, you can see my logic on why I contend that this is already the case in the 3.5 rules, and making this "at-will" does not make it any "worse" other than to bring it more to the forefront.
Any campaign that had even a modicum of magic that the assumed setting would have would already dash water concerns out the window as much as at-will cantrips would.
I won't go into great details... but basically: Continuous Magic Item of Create Water = 1000gp (500gp to make + 40xp), or Decanter of Endless Water = 9000gp if you need a faster supply + weapon capability.
These are currently either easily created or standard equipment in 3.5 ruleset... before at-will cantrips.
Sure, every peasant who needs to water the crops has 1-5,000 GP around. Every itinerant desert nomad has that kind of cash around... well, come to think of it, no they don't. The local ruler probably does, but even if he has these items they are part of his power base, and not something to be spread around like the latest plumbing fixture. I don't know, but when somebody describes a magic item as "standard equipment" it makes me wonder. Maybe standard for rich adventurers and the powerful, but not as campaign altering / game breaking fixtures of the local economy. Unlimited cantrips on the other hand could do a lot of damage to a game, eliminating any number of obstacles to travel and adventuring without any expenditure of money / effort. Those desert trips become a breeze. Water, no problem. Poking around that next corner in the dungeon. Communication, no problem. Open that lock the rogue couldn't handle. Acid, no problem. It just goes on with each cantrip. Thank the gods they removed the Cure Minor Wounds orison from the clerics list. Looking deeper there's alot more to wonder about. In short, unlimited cantrips / orisons are a bad idea. Unlimited magic of any kind tends to take away from the challenges in the game. A game that lacks challenge and risk is... boring.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Real brief because I'm real tired,
I forgot the SRD says they bypass hardness, the last FAQ said they didn't *sigh*
Thanks for the volume. Not sure I'd allow anhyone to cast for 375 minutes straight. Well maybe senators. :-)
Bonuses from the same sources don't stack, so it shouldn't have been +5 for the HP.
I do agree it will require adjustment of tactics, and thank you for taking my post as a discussion and not an attack. I'm not the most tactful at times.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yoda - out of curiosity, what were your players using their 0 level slots for before? The reason I ask is because my players used message all the time to split the party (even when it was a 1st level spell in 3.0). I can see how the ability to use the spell at-will increases the frequency and efficacy of this tactic, but I think it might be more that your players discovered how cool message is because they didn't have to use 0 level slots for other spells. I guess my comment would be that this tactic has always existed and the at-will cantrips merely exposed its existence.
Sure, every peasant who needs to water the crops has 1-5,000 GP around. Every itinerant desert nomad has that kind of cash around... well, come to think of it, no they don't. The local ruler probably does, but even if he has these items they are part of his power base, and not something to be spread around like the latest plumbing fixture. I don't know, but when somebody describes a magic item as "standard equipment" it makes me wonder. Maybe standard for rich adventurers and the powerful, but not as campaign altering / game breaking fixtures of the local economy. Unlimited cantrips on the other hand could do a lot of damage to a game, eliminating any number of obstacles to travel and adventuring without any expenditure of money / effort. Those desert trips become a breeze. Water, no problem. Poking around that next corner in the dungeon. Communication, no problem. Open that lock the rogue couldn't handle. Acid, no problem. It just goes on with each cantrip. Thank the gods they removed the Cure Minor Wounds orison from the clerics list. Looking deeper there's alot more to wonder about. In short, unlimited cantrips / orisons are a bad idea. Unlimited magic of any kind tends to take away from the challenges in the game. A game that lacks challenge and risk is... boring.
The average person doesn't have access to unlimited cantrips just as much as they don't have access to the magical equipment. What's your point exactly?
Only the Cleric and Druid can cast Create Water indefinately. Adepts cannot. Which means a locale may not even have access to create water in either situation.
Not every "itinerant desert nomad" will have access to the Create Water spell. Not every "peasant who needs to water the crops" has access to Create Water either.
The average person will have the same access and need for water from any source available, the only real change is that adventurers and larger cities won't have to immediately resort to magical items to have unlimited water, they can turn to a Divine caster.
Now that's incentive to have a religious base power in a magical setting: Divine casters provide life giving water.
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Now as for the other spells, I haven't looked at any of it. Acid breaking through hardness of items may need to be looked at in a world shaping sense. However, if that's the only part of it that is hurting anyone's sense of reality, then take that out. The Acid is a weak magical version that doesn't by-pass hardness.
Communication shouldn't be a problem. Water shouldn't be a problem. If you are resorting to this to challenge your players, then you aren't really playing a high level of magical fantasy.
Which is fine! I'm not even saying you are having badwrongfun, because I'm all for a Survival campaign. In such a campaign though, things need to be changed so that certain things can't be done otherwise you can just jump past a lot of stuff. This includes higher level spells too, not just cantrips. Teleport and Fly, of course.. but even things like Hide from/Speak with Animals can cause trouble. Or Endure Elements! Even Summon Monster can cause trouble in a survivalist campaign because you can artificially inflate your numbers, and use them for out-of-combat purposes that can get past a lot of challenges unharmed.
But those are specific changes to a specific campaign... not the general rules for a High Magic game setting, which has always been the implied setting of D&D (how can it not be! you have speak with dead, why is there any of the normal confusion over murders? etc).
Unlimited Cantrips are not going to break the challenge of the game. Spend 6 hours making your voice hoarse over casting a water spell continuously to get out of a 10' pit? That hardly sounds overpowered... in that time the player could have rolled a 20 to get out. Communication doesn't have an indefinite range, and requires speaking out-loud, which could be problematic when sneaking around enemies.
Using Acid Splash to get out of your shackles? Those captors must have known you knew magic when they found the bag of strange smelling things and that book of strange writing... gone are the days that we gag and either bind or break the hands of the mage (spell has Verbal and Somatic components)?
I just don't see it as that overpowered, and the game will be quite challenging even with them in it. Seriously. Just ask anyone playtesting the game right now that's gone past the level 1 threats... are cantrips the reason they beat those CR5 encounters?
The average person doesn't have access to unlimited cantrips just as much as they don't have access to the magical equipment. What's your point exactly?
Only the Cleric and Druid can cast Create Water indefinately. Adepts cannot. Which means a locale may not even have access to create water in either situation.
Not every "itinerant desert nomad" will have access to the Create Water spell. Not every "peasant who needs to water the crops" has access to Create Water either.
[i]The average person will have the same access and need for water from any source available, the only real change is that adventurers and larger cities won't have to immediately resort to magical items to have unlimited water, they can turn to...
Well, let's see...
My point on cantrips vs. magical items was that the person equating expensive magical equipment to cantrips was off by a degree or two of "rarity".
Adepts don't have cantrips / orisons, but Clerics are not exactly uncommon. A low level cleric or two could easily make their church the center of life in a rural / desert setting. Is making 720 gallons of water per hour, each, really what you want your clerics to be doing? Well, minus break time. Bonus! They can always have a glass or three of water... it's what I call "industrial magic"...
Farmers and nomads... Again, more likely to access a cantrip / orison, through low level characters, than a 1-5,000 GP magical item.
These type of "environmental" problems should be challenges for *low* level characters. I'm not saying a high level character can't "jump over" problems like these. That's part of the perks of being high level. And the challenge of overcoming these problems is part of the challenge (and fun) of being low level. Which, later, makes it fun to skip past those pesky problems...
I don't have a problem with "high magic" settings, but there is a difference IMO between high magic and a setting in which magic is basically "industrial" or simply a substitute in every day life for science. That takes the wonder out of it. For me anyway. Of course YMMV and one persons boredom is anothers fun...
The average person will have the same access and need for water from any source available, the only real change is that adventurers and larger cities won't have to immediately resort to magical items to have unlimited water, they can turn to a Divine caster. Now that's incentive to have a religious base power in a magical setting: Divine casters provide life giving water.
On the subject of unlimited Create Water usage.
Create Water is a divine spell. Divine magic is pure and ideal to the core. It's in the essence of divinity. Thus the water created with divine spells lacks any impurities - including the advantageous ones. Basically, Create Water creates purified water.
From Wikipedia:
"The drinking of purified water has been both advocated and discouraged for health reasons. Purified water lacks minerals and ions, such as calcium, which are normally found in potable (drinking) water, and which have important biological functions such as in nervous system homeostasis."
I guess the same goes for plants, as well. They need minerals (which the soil might have).
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Oh come on now, don't make such leaps.
This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water.
If you can magically create the water, where's the jump in logic that the priest can't also create necessary life giving minerals in the water too? Come on now. Rain water is full of tasty things. Like acid.
This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water.
You're correct. I didn't check the SRD. Well, I guess it's up to individual DMs to handle the case then. Unless at-will cantrips are addressed in the beta.
I still like the idea of magic being hazardous to your health (over time) if used repeatedly. Like developing a (mental) addiction to cure potions :)
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Yoda - out of curiosity, what were your players using their 0 level slots for before? The reason I ask is because my players used message all the time to split the party (even when it was a 1st level spell in 3.0). I can see how the ability to use the spell at-will increases the frequency and efficacy of this tactic, but I think it might be more that your players discovered how cool message is because they didn't have to use 0 level slots for other spells. I guess my comment would be that this tactic has always existed and the at-will cantrips merely exposed its existence.
I think this is the case. Other than light, I can't think of very many 0-level spells anyone ever cast. I think the fact that it was an obvious change made them want to test it out, and realize that they do have these spells, when previously they seemed to have forgotten they existed.
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I do like the idea of being addicted to potions;
Drinking them whenever they find them, regardless of the state of their HP.
PC1:"Hey, sweet, a potion of cure serious wounds..." *glug glug glug*
PC2: "I needed that! My arm is almost falling off"
PC1: "Uhh, mine too. OW OW. I need another one!" *Glug glug glug*
I think the issue is conflicting goals. Many cantrips are some sort of utility spell, like Detect Magic, Read Magic, Open/Close, Know Direction and the like. These can be unlimited quite easily. Others are combat spells: Flare, Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, etc. These can be unlimited without issue, since combat is only so long.
Other spells create a permanent or semi-permanent effect. Light, Arcane Mark, Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Mending, Virtue, Guidance. Many of these were meant to allieviate logistical issues of adventuring. It's kind of cool that spellcasters can make a better torch. It means that waterskins can be assumed to be full, and that your clothes don't completely reek. Some of these, like Guidance, Virtue, and Resistance, have short durations that help prevent abuse: I can cast Virtue for a minute straight to grant 10 temporary HP to my allies, but thats the most I can do, split between everyone, and they'll start vanishing immediately. Same for Guidance. Resistance doesn't stack with itself.
Light and Arcane mark are open to abuse, since a low-level caster can light up a whole dungeon or arcane mark any and every object he finds, but they don't impact the world at large, other than perhaps Continual Flame spells might be replaced by apprentice wizards acting as Lamplighters. As long as a DM steps in to tell people to stop being stupid, nothing terrible happens.
However, Create Water and Purify Food and Drink have longreaching world implications. They were created to allow a party of adventurers to wander in the wilderness without worrying about water, or go spelunking in a sewer without ruining their rations. In any game I've ever played, they were never actually cast at the table: they were prepared, and thus it was handwaved that you had water to drink and any food you carried was safe when it was time to camp. They didn't break the game world because a low-level cleric could not create enough water to supply a village, nor purify enough food. A high level one might, but then, they're high level. In the same way, a Decanter of Endless Water is costly: The royal castle might have indoor plumbing based on one, but Hommlet doesn't. The common folk still had to deal with wells and potentially tainted food. In a siege, Clerics might supplement the water supply, but they could not substitute for it.
With unlimited cantrips, that changes. In one minute of casting, even a level 1 cleric can create 20 gallons of water. That's enough to sustain 20 people, according to the SRD. Since commoners probably aren't eating dried rations, they likely need less. This cleric could sustain a village's water needs in a few minutes per day. It would take much longer to irrigate the fields, but are you telling me a Cleric of Erastil wouldn't be willing to cast all day in time of drought?
And all that is fine. Clerics should be able to help the people in time of need, and it's nice that a sieged king must remain on good terms with his church. But it challenges the pseudo-medieval setting. And that needs to be acknowledged, so that DMs (and adventure writers) don't get blindsided.
At-will Create Water almost completely negates the whole of Sandstorm
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Others are combat spells: Flare, Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, etc. These can be unlimited without issue, since combat is only so long.
Recall that as a Conjuration (creation) spell with an Instantaneous duration, the acid created by the Acid Splash spell is permanant and non-magical/non-dispellable, once created. It's only half the strength of alchemical acid, but plenty useful, I imagine.
Ray of Frost could similarly be used to keep meat storage areas cool (or even grain storage areas), allowing food to be preserved many times more readily than would generally be the case in a medieval society, and greatly reducing risks of certain common medieval ailments and illnesses, spread through unsafe / improperly preserved foods (no more heavy salting everything to hide the taste of spoiled food, and that was just for the nobles who could afford to salt their food, the peasants just had to get used to the taste of spoiled meat!).
The ideal fix, for those who might find unlimited Create Water (or unlimited supplies of acid from Acid Splash) would be to rule that, as cantrips, a particularly weak form of magic, they are an exception to Conjured stuff hanging around permanantly. Perhaps created water (or acid) vanishes after 1 minute *unless consumed,* so that the priest can give you a drink, but he can't fill a cistern.
The casting time for Create Water could be increased to one minute, or the amount of water remain static at 2 gallons regardless of level, but that wouldn't really address the problem, merely shuffle the numbers around.
It's easy enough for the DM to say that the game world has obviously always had priests capable of creating water, and the existence of deserts in the setting is *despite* the hard work that local priests do to keep their people from dying of thirst, but that also doesn't account for what a PC priest might choose to do with unlimited use of create water.
Ray of Frost could similarly be used to keep meat storage areas cool (or even grain storage areas), allowing food to be preserved many times more readily than would generally be the case in a medieval society, and greatly reducing risks of certain common medieval ailments and illnesses, spread through unsafe / improperly preserved foods (no more heavy salting everything to hide the taste of spoiled food, and that was just for the nobles who could afford to salt their food, the peasants just had to get used to the taste of spoiled meat!).The ideal fix, for those who might find unlimited Create Water (or unlimited supplies of acid from Acid Splash) would be to rule that, as cantrips, a particularly weak form of magic, they are an exception to Conjured stuff hanging around permanantly. Perhaps created water (or acid) vanishes after 1 minute *unless consumed,* so that the priest can give you a drink, but he can't fill a cistern.
The casting time for Create Water could be increased to one minute, or the amount of water remain static at 2 gallons regardless of level, but that wouldn't really address the problem, merely shuffle the numbers around.
It's easy enough for the DM to say that the game world has obviously always had priests capable of creating water, and the existence of deserts in the setting is *despite* the hard work that local priests do to keep their people from dying of thirst, but that also doesn't account for what a PC priest might choose to do with unlimited use of create water.
Gentle Repose is a better solution than Ray of Frost for preserving food. Ray of Frost is just for chilling your drink.
Fixing the casting time of Create Water (to 1-5 minutes) and capping the amount created, at, say, 10 gallons (enough for a party plus mounts) would be helpful.
Recall that as a Conjuration (creation) spell with an Instantaneous duration, the acid created by the Acid Splash spell is permanant and non-magical/non-dispellable, once created. It's only half the strength of alchemical acid, but plenty useful, I imagine.
Acid Splash could be made a 'Summoning' spell instead of 'Creation'. That way, the acid vanishes from whence it came as soon as it's done searing the target.
Hrmm, perhaps for Create Water, the water is really being extracted from the nearby area, so applying it on an industrial scale might have unitended side effects, like drought.
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Other spells create a permanent or semi-permanent effect. Light, Arcane Mark, Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Mending, Virtue, Guidance. Many of these were meant to allieviate logistical issues of adventuring. It's kind of cool that spellcasters can make a better torch. It means that waterskins can be assumed to be full, and that your clothes don't completely reek. Some of these, like Guidance, Virtue, and Resistance, have short durations that help prevent abuse: I can cast Virtue for a minute straight to grant 10 temporary HP to my allies, but thats the most I can do, split between everyone, and they'll start vanishing immediately. Same for Guidance. Resistance doesn't stack with itself.
Light and Arcane mark are open to abuse, since a low-level caster can light up a whole dungeon or arcane mark any and every object he finds, but they don't impact the world at large, other than perhaps Continual Flame spells might be replaced by apprentice wizards acting as Lamplighters. As long as a DM steps in to tell people to stop being stupid, nothing terrible happens.
However, Create Water and Purify Food and Drink have longreaching world implications. They were created to allow a party of adventurers to wander in the wilderness without worrying about water, or go spelunking in a sewer without ruining their rations. In any game I've ever played, they were never actually cast at the table: they were prepared, and thus it was handwaved that you had water to drink and any food you carried was safe when it was time to camp. They didn't break the game world because a low-level cleric could not create enough water to supply a village, nor purify enough food. A high level one...
What about allowing these cantrips to be able to be cast at will, but cap their effect at any one time? Similar to how virtue can have a maximum of 10 temp hit points based on duration, have light only able to create 1 light at a time, if you cast it while the previous casting is still active, the first one ends. You can still use your light cantrip to light your way all day, but you can't light the whole dungeon up at once, you have to bring your light with you.
Arcane mark can have a limit of 1 mark per caster level at any one time, create water can only have one casting available at any one time - only once it consumed would that free up your cantrip to make more.
Also on page 111.Effect
Range 10 ft.
Target one object of up to 1 lb./level
Sorry about that. It didn't strike me that the spell needed a fix, until I saw the fixed version, which does make more sense. With a scaling effect, some kind of cap might be in order.