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So I'm thinking, as I read through the various threads here, that much of the discussion regarding the alpha rules, and even playtest reports, may be effectively useless until the beta rules are released.
Pathfinder RPG has great momentum at the moment - you have the whole Paizonian community behind you (save a few people who are less than fully gruntled), and we're all gung-ho to playtest and give feedback, as requested. But for the next month and a half, that's going to be mostly useless. Who knows what has been fixed/changed in the beta that was in the alpha? I mean, we heard within a few days of alpha 3 being released that Combat Feats were not going to make it to the beta... that has a profound impact on even bothering to playtest combat where those feats are involved. And since everything is so tightly intertwined in combat, it could render useless any reports that involve the fighting classes who might take such feats.
Now, to the point of my message: I would highly recommend releasing the PDF of the beta rules now. You're going to do it anyway, for free, as you said. I could definitely see waiting for a set release date if you didn't plan on giving away the PDF. But given the situation that exists, I think that more harm could be done by just sitting on this for 6 weeks or so while people are not really sure what rules they're trying to playtest are actually going to still be the same or even exist in the beta rules. Should it occur that a playtest group or three find some serious flaw, or Jason thinks of a way that could greatly improve some section of the rules, there's no reason not to issue an addendum/errata/update after the print beta rules have been released (or concurrent with the print beta rules, whatever).
I just think that the delay will cause a lot of people to just stop paying attention between now and GenCon, and perhaps focus their attention elsewhere while they wait. And I'd hate to see that happen. Obviously you won't lose everyone during this period, but with the gaming industry the way it is right now it's probably best to have as many folks on-board and with continuous excitement as possible without "limbo" downtimes.
Just a thought... what do you think?
It does seem a bit silly to have various threads being posted discussing Power Attack and Combat Expertise, or what ideal CMB DC should be (say) when those rules may have been completed rewritten already.
I can understand wanting to have something splashy and new to bring to Gen Con, though.
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The OP's point about momentum is well taken, although I think the big GenCon roll out is a pretty big thing for Paizo. I'd love the Beta ASAP as well, but if we can't get that, what's the next best thing?
Maybe Paizo needs to re-direct the energy for a while and open up some discussions for future products/rules - things that won't be covered in the Beta - to keep the momentum going and get a head start on later work.
Topics could include:
Psionics
Technology
Planer/interplanetary travel
Epic Pathfinder
Modern Pathfinder
I'm just trying to think of topics people have opinions on that aren't in the PHB, DMG or MM. Ideally Jason could toss out a few rule-change ideas and let the community do most of the work for him. Get the Boards to come up with a better psionics system, a better epic system, etc., and that way, when Pathfinder is ready to tackle these topics, he's got something to work with.
I think Mosaic has hit it on the head. Keeping the Beta for GenCon or whatever it is, but dropping in and making an occasional comment to keep people thinking about other potential topics -- monster rules, psionics, etc. -- that may not see print anytime soon, but make good "back-burner" subjects -- that keeps the momentum AND keeps the Beta for use as an "as needed" showy piece.
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Ah.. this is a tough one. Part of the unveiling of a thing often involves the excitement and anticipation ahead of the unveiling.
And it would be in true PAZIO fashion that the release of the free OS for Pathfinder would indeed breathe of fresh air, in stark contrast to to the fetid stench of tight-lipped dwellers of the WOTC ivory tower...
That is, PAIZO is the company who's outstanding customer service makes them the peoples choice...
Still thinking...
Yeah, but the OP makes a great point about how odd it is to post about moot points...
If only there were a way, a good, solid, business practice that would allow the BIG REAVEAL to still happen at GEN CON.
Ouch... but without resorting to non-disclosure forms (that smells of the wizards too)...
Still thinking....
I'm going to sleep on this and return to this thread later.... this is a tough one.
For now, the PAIZO staff should be hearing our congratulations for getting the game off to print. We should still be charged up and showing our support.
But, yeah, I want a copy of that Beta so bad, I can taste it!
[...pulls Varisian scarf threads from teeth...]
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I guess part of my point is that people have converted their campaigns to use Pathfinder Alpha rules, and have no idea what to do with them at this point. Do we waste time playing with rules that aren't going to exist? Do we start thread after thread discussing this element or that while Jason et al know that it's not going to be that way in the beta? For instance there are a couple of threads... one about bringing back concentration (or changing it to a Discipline skill), there's a big thread about Power Attack... if it comes down to "oh, we changed power attack to this, and the Concentration skill is still gone, do this instead" and all the wasted discussion could have been avoided... well, I'll be annoyed.
This isn't about getting my hands on something early just for the sake of my own self-satisfaction. I seriously think that having the entire messageboard sit around yelling into a vacuum is going to start taking a toll on people's enthusiasm for this venture.
Discussing other topics (like psionics, etc, as suggested) is fine, but unless it's actually going to make a difference to Paizo then, again, you're just yelling into the void. And those topics are of interest to only a small subsection of the folks who are here for the Pathfinder RPG. Besides, you can always use the 3.5 versions of that stuff until Paizo actually has the resources (time, people) to get to it - if they even decide to work on those things.
And then there's the issue of having the folks who've been working their butts off on this material coming around the messageboards more in the near future. That's great - but are we just constantly going to hear "oh, you'll like how we fix this in the beta"? They won't actually be able to tell us anything other than "yah, we fixed that" or "I can't say what has happened to that, but it's in the beta!". I think that might even be more frustrating than no comments from them - at least for me.
I don't mean to be doom-and-gloom, I just know that momentum can be a powerful ally - or a very obstinate foe.
As I said, it was just a thought I had. It would be nice to have Erik or someone comment (not that I don't enjoy reading everyone's replies, of course). It's entirely possible they just decided to do it this way because that's how it's always been done (delay a big launch until a big event) and didn't consider doing it otherwise. I doubt it, somehow, but it's possible... they are pretty overworked the last little while. :)
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I woke up this morning and had the following thought: Erik and his staff will do right by us, they always do. That is, I trust their decision on this one, because nearly all the time they choose to do something better and greater than most imagine. I know there's some good news pending soon, ... let's just wait a bit and see...
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On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if they just gave us an update on the download for the feats section, that way we knew what we were getting into with playtesting and not need to worry so much about it, I don't need the whole beta, but the combat feats were a big part and knowing they are gone I don't want to playtest them.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if they just gave us an update on the download for the feats section, that way we knew what we were getting into with playtesting and not need to worry so much about it, I don't need the whole beta, but the combat feats were a big part and knowing they are gone I don't want to playtest them.
Agreed -- if there were a synopsis of some of the major changes between Alpha 3 and Beta, it would be useful. But I wouldn't hold my breath. :-)
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I've been a little surprised through this whole process by the folks who start playtesting one of the Alphas and complain when the rules change. It's a playtest. The whole point is that the rules are in flux. I don't think it is fair to Paizo to start an Alpha3 playtest now and then complain that the rules are out of date (when they've been out of date for a week) so we need the Beta rules now. If someone's players aren't up to lots of changes and uncertainty, don't make them playtest, just keep running 3.5 like you have been.
None of this denies the OP's point, though, that it would be great if Paizo could get something going to grab people's attention and capture their enthusiasm.
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So, the concern is that the momentum of PFRPG will be lost between now and GenCon if the Beta rules aren't released before then? Because there it's almost 2 months from now?
If that's really the concern, what do you think about the YEAR that's going to lapse between Beta @ GenCon2008 and the official rules @ GenCon2009?
-Skeld
So, the concern is that the momentum of PFRPG will be lost between now and GenCon if the Beta rules aren't released before then? Because there it's almost 2 months from now?
If that's really the concern, what do you think about the YEAR that's going to lapse between Beta @ GenCon2008 and the official rules @ GenCon2009?
The point is not the length of the individual playtesting periods (Alpha 1-3 + Beta), it's the gap between the two playtest periods (Alpha 3 and Beta) that the original poster doesn't like.
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The point is not the length of the individual playtesting periods (Alpha 1-3 + Beta), it's the gap between the two playtest periods (Alpha 3 and Beta) that the original poster doesn't like.
I realize this. My point was that the gap between Beta and official rules is going to be much longer. If there's going to be a significant loss of momentum, that's likely where it will be.
I don't know what kind of updates or anything else Paizo has scheduled during that year. It's potentially a very long dry period.
-Skeld
Seriously, Paizo folks, please announce THE ALPHA PLAYTEST IS OVER,
as that is more or less the situation.
It seems alot of people here on the forums are unclear as to the purpose of the playtest, thinking it's a freebie for THEM to enjoy playing with the new Pathfinder rules, rather than being a freebie for PAIZO to get feedback for the design process, and if Beta is indeed done, then there is no more need for Alpha playtesting.
Of course, personally, I'd love it if the Beta PDF were released NOW, but it seems like there's been a "PR"/Marketing decision to "drop the bomb" at GenCon.
I suppose it would be *nice* for the earnest Pathfinder fans, if Jason/ others would release some general "guidance" on the Beta changes. The Combat Feats are already announced to no longer be 1/round, so whether or not to expect the return of the 3.5 wording or not, would be helpful, along with guidance on CMB (attack bonuses applying, AC bonuses applying to "Defensive" CMB...)
I realize this. My point was that the gap between Beta and official rules is going to be much longer. If there's going to be a significant loss of momentum, that's likely where it will be.
I don't know what kind of updates or anything else Paizo has scheduled during that year. It's potentially a very long dry period.
I understand your frustration with the current situation where Beta is done but the release is being delayed, but the Beta situation will be very different than now, for one, Paizo will be SELLING the softcover ruleset for the subsequent 12 months while they refine it further thru more playtesting. Of course, there will be a certain 'delay' between the final hardcover ruleset getting finalized and sent to printer and when it is actually released, but the softcover will still be on sale the whole time. I expect the Pathfinder AP & Supplement material to be progressively updated to the new Pathfinder RPG ruleset over this time, as well.
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Seriously, Paizo folks, please announce THE ALPHA PLAYTEST IS OVER,
as that is more or less the situation.
But this is not truth. We can still test the alpha rules. Between alpha 1 and 2 or alpha 2 to 3 there was a momentum where Jason had already made changes and that didn't matter.
I think it's far more usefull to continue testing the actual release than stop and wait for Beta. We can find flaws the will be there in beta too, we can see how things work (combat feats) in order to compare with new ones. A playtest of a deprecated version is better than playtest nothing.
I concur that it would keep the momentum up at this critical juncture, if Paizo would release the PDF already.
As far as the softcover goes, I´ll buy one in any case. From Amazon it´ll cost me 18 Euros, while printing the PDF out would cost me much more, either in costs at the copyshop or for a new toner for my printer. :P
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I understand your frustration with the current situation where Beta is done but the release is being delayed...
Actually, it's the OP that's frustrated. I'm quite happy waiting; especially since I'm currently running a group smack in the middle of Savage Tide and have no intention of upgrading rules until we're done.
In my mind, all the Beta is going to do is reprint a whole bunch of stuff essentially unchanged from the SRD, introduce all the Beta-current PFRPG changes, and shore up alot of the nits folks have been picking as a result of the rule changes. Oh, and put it all in onw book you can take to your game table.
Personally, I'm looking forward to the Beta, but I don't see it as a MUST HAVE NOW item.
-Skeld
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I wouldn't even say I'm "frustrated" at this point - more concerned. I don't like doing things that are pointless, that's all. :) That goes for my life, my job, and my gaming. I do worry that the limbo (to use Jason's word) will have an adverse effect on interest. Let's be honest, there is another shiny, new game out that will attract people's attention as well....
As for the beta period being a longer waiting game than between now and GenCon, that's true. But at least during that period our playtesting will be leading toward something. I would hope (and I don't know how they're going to proceed with this over the course of the year) that there will be periodic (or as-needed) rules clarifications during the beta test if something shows itself to be truly in need of changing.
Waiting for the final rules while they're being printed (which ought to be about this time next year, I suppose, or perhaps even earlier since it's going to be a bigger run and more expensive and important) will be different in that it's a FINAL. People are less likely to remain excited about something coming out that they know still isn't final. Next year, when it's the finalized rules and official rulebook being issued... that is something that will still keep people's interest.
As for me, I'm not going to lose interest - I might stop commenting on the messageboards (you know what they say about arguing on the internet) for a while, though, because it's just not going anywhere at the moment. I'll be here because I have great respect for Paizo as a company and the staff as individuals from everything I've seen (well, Logue is a bit of a freak, but other than that... :). That, and I think the rules that Jason et al have been working on are doing a great service to those of us who pledged to continue playing 3.5 compatible games and those who have become disillusioned with 4e once the smoke and mirrors fell down in the big "reveal".
Anyway, I'm sure it will work out alright either way. I'm looking forward to converting either CotCT or SD so I can run the AP for my group.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I understand that playtesters are feeling a little restless, but there is still a lot that you can do between now and the Beta. I addressed this question specifically in this thread, and suggest folks head over there to get my take on what you can do to move the playtest forward i the lull before the release of the Beta.
--Erik
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As much as I would like to say I can be patient for the official relese date, I too find myself wondering about the Beta changes. It hasn't stopped me from playtesting Pathfinder, but it has stopped me from posting results on this forum.
Until I had read this post, I hadn't realized how little I have commented, posted, or even visited this site since the final Alpha release knowing that any feedback is a moot point with Beta already in route to print.
Will this stop me from playing? No.
Will I still buy the Beta? Yes (it will be cheaper to buy than print myself!)
Will I hope that, following the Beta, the voices of use gamers and playtesters will still be listened to as Pathfinder heads toward a final release? Yes.
Thanks so far for a great product, Paizo.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I just want to reiterate that PLAYTEST FEEDBACK IS NOT IRRELEVANT, even with the Beta off to the printer.
There is still going to be stuff in the Beta that is currently in the Alpha, and the system still requires robust playtest. CERTAIN things have changed (a la the way combat feats are handled), but a lot of stuff is the same.
People who expect the Beta to look 100% different from the Alpha are going to be very disappointed. There is a great deal of crossover material, and all of that still requires playtesting.
Please keep it up, and please keep updating us on how it's going! We are absolutely listening.
As much I want to have this in my grubby little hands, I was also a business owner for 15 years.
Leave Paizo alone, and let them lay the smack down at Gencon.