But I thought this thread was started in the I Love Pathfinder section of the forums and not the I Love 4e area.
I love Pathfinder and if you post how unhappy you are with XYZ my answer will be "Try Pathfinder."
I did not say anything negative about that other game, which was very difficult for me. So when you are on this side of the fence be nice or we'll all go over there an say mean things about your game.
LOL!
I'm glad the OP has found a community where he can commisserate that he (or she) hates the new edition... but I wish people wouldn't act like not liking the new edition should be obvious.
I think that the problem is that those of us who have hated the new edition, hate it for what we think are obvious reasons.
Hey you! Knock it off with your quality posts and ideas to keeping s*#@ flinging to a minimum here and in real life. It's really the later that I find offensive. Why, I ask, why, even have a monkey if he is not trained to fling feces at your command? That's like having a dog that won't hump someone's leg on command or a parrott that doesn't swear like a sailor.
I for one would be honored to have a baby monkey at my game table. As long as its diaper is on real tight . . .
I have a brother-in-law that will do all three. And he plays D&D, does that count?
I am sorry you are regretting your decision. On the same token, I want to say... yes, WotC clearly bungled every piece of public relations that they could possibly have bungled in the release. And
frankly, it came very close to costing them me as a customer. I say this as someone who started playing Dungeons & Dragons at the age of 5 or six... and I'm well into my thirties.BUT - while I appreciate that 4e is not the game for you, I wish people would stop acting like this should be obvious and that only the Pathfinder RPG is the heir to D&D. I played D&D for damn near 30 years... and I just played 4e on Sunday. For me and my group (and I certainly understand that other people's mileage may vary), it was playing D&D. My husband enjoyed and was excited about playing D&D for the first time in ages... he never really liked 3rd edition, but he really felt like 4e - so far - is cool.
I'm glad the OP has found a community where he can commisserate that he (or she) hates the new edition... but I wish people wouldn't act like not liking the new edition should be obvious.
The new issue (June) of Dungeon just started it's release. Anyone who wants a 4e scenario can make their way to a store for free RPG day and get one for free in just a couple weeks. And I fully expect that in addition to the side-treks for Keep on Shadowfell that are already on the Dungeon site on D&D Insider, that there will be additional 4e scenarios there this month.
I'm sorry WotC bungled its public relations this badly. And bungle they did, I won't stick up for them on that point. But they created a version of D&D that I think, so far, is pretty good. I've gotten to the point that I feel unwelcome here for having that opinion. It's almost enough to make me abandon my plans to buy the Pathfinder RPG when it comes out. I used to love this community, and people who can't just let people enjoy the games they enjoy are ruining that community.
- Ashavan
PS - this is in no way intended as an attack on the OP, who has every...
Your husband would probably have a better time playing True20, Fairy Tale or any of the other lighter RPGs out on the market, enjoyment does not institute a faithful sequel to dungeons and dragons. So when you hear people say that Pathfinder feels more faithful to the original material, its because it has streamlined things without taking away the traditional interactive character feel of the game. 4e is a nice system if i was in the mood for something between board game and rpg.
I don't think wotc did a thing wrong with its PR. WOTC wants to bring in mmo and ccg players and its made no hesitation about detailing that. Face it, its a bigger market and obviously one where little kids will spend hundreds of dollars a month on. D&D has always been a tradionally cheap hobby kept alive by fans whoknow that no ones making a killing off of it.
If you feel unwanted, join the club. I don't even go to enworld much anymore because of all the people who love shiny and new over there. It pretty much cements my theory that there are few dms who see dungeonmastering as a craft as opposed to a hindering job they must do to play the game. 4e eliminates DM choice and calls it streamlining. Many choices eliminated because a lot of those who dm don't want to take the time to streamline their own processes. 4e eliminates player choice and calls it "a faster game". Many things eliminated for players who don't have the patience to play a tabletop game.
4e does nothing new but offers a poorman version of true20 with minis.
I just got done reading all the posts so far. Most everyone has made some interesting arguements. I am an old school gamer who has played every editions as well as D&D's predecessor, Chainmail. I have ventured into other RPGs such as Rifts, Star Wars, Twilight 2000, Gamma World, Battletech, and many more. However, I have always found my way back to D&D. I always liked the system and setting better than every other game. I walked away from all these experiences with one thing in my mind. RPGs are about the fun you have with your friends. That said , a perfectly good game can be destroyed by the wrong people. However, without the right game, the best of friends get bored with each other's company. Every system is imperfect. They all have there faults. However, D&D has been tried and tested more than any other system out there. As complicated as it is, the rule system covers more aspects of combat than any other game out there. The most difficult thing as a DM has always been integrating new players in with a more experienced group. When I heard D&D was make a system with a less difficult rule structure that still handled everything but with a less steep learning curve, I was excited. However, when I read about Wizards plans for everyone to destroy their campaigns to pave the way for their new edition. the excitement waned. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind fresh starts or wiping the slate clean. Yet this was a new angle NEVER preached before by TSR or Wizards. All earlier editions just updated, elaborated or corrected the game. Existing characters that my players had grown to love over the years only needed revising. Planetary genocide had never before been asked of DMs. Not to mention the fact that 3rd edition appeared after years of Advanced Dungeon and Dragons 2nd edition being in print without new rule releases. 4th edition asked that everyone destroy their campaigns and all characters in existence as well as get rid of every book that Wizards released only MONTHS before. What fool at Wizards thought that had a chance in hell of going over well? I don't think that I need to remind anyone with the patience to read this long-winded post that these books are not cheap. The reason I buy them is because I love the game and I will use the material within for YEARS. I have to agree that the merchandising end of Wizards has gotten ahead of the love of the game. I do not need a lesson from anyone on business or marketing. I understand the need for a business to continue to make money every quarter. I do not believe that Wizards has made the right decision in completely dismantling a tried and true platform of rules, and asking their fans to toss every character, campaign world, and book in the trash so that they can re-market a whole new set of rules that is in a completely opposite direction of every previous edition. By the way, Pathfinder is fantastic. I have read through your Alpha release rules set as diligently as I have read 4E new core books. Your amendments are beautifully constructed and well thought out. I could not have restuctured the core classes better. Oh, and by the way, thanks for not telling me to go sell or burn all my old characters and books in order to play Pathfinder. I can't wait to see how poorly 4E does. Serves them right!
One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d*!+#%@s will be playing 4E.
Your husband would probably have a better time playing True20, Fairy Tale or any of the other lighter RPGs out on the market, enjoyment does not institute a faithful sequel to dungeons and dragons. So when you hear people say that Pathfinder feels more faithful to the original material, its because it has streamlined things without taking away the traditional interactive character feel of the game. 4e is a nice system if i was in the mood for something between board game and rpg.
With due respect, we've both been playing the game for 20 plus years and can decide for ourselves. My husband has looked at True20, but balks at the fact that the game engine is built on 3.5 and has many of what he sees as shortcomings to the system.
I don't think wotc did a thing wrong with its PR. WOTC wants to bring in mmo and ccg players and its made no hesitation about detailing that. Face it, its a bigger market and obviously one where little kids will spend hundreds of dollars a month on. D&D has always been a tradionally cheap hobby kept alive by fans whoknow that no ones making a killing off of it.
little kids don't have hundreds of dollars, and parents don't willingly give up THAT much money. Wizards lack of PR has to do mostly with silence on issues that I believe they should talk about up front. With unreasonable delays. With a feeling of dismissiveness that is evident in their posts and writing. With unkept promises about what they'd do with d&d insider and the magazines in the time before the release of the new edition.
If you feel unwanted, join the club. I don't even go to enworld much anymore because of all the people who love shiny and new over there. It pretty much cements my theory that there are few dms who see dungeonmastering as a craft as opposed to a hindering job they must do to play the game. 4e eliminates DM choice and calls it streamlining. Many choices eliminated because a lot of those who dm don't want to take the time to streamline their own processes. 4e eliminates player choice and calls it "a faster game". Many things eliminated for players who don't have the patience to play a tabletop game.
And here you prove the point. Some of us like the ways 4e has streamlined things. There's nothing crafty about stating an epic stat block... it's busy work, plain and simple. Playing a 3.5 game by the seat of your pants has never really been possible, it's one of the biggest weaknesses in the game, and the primary reason my husband doesn't like the system. 4e has promised to be easier in this regard, and if it is, I suspect my husband will enjoy it. However, your attitude is that people who found that sort of detail busy work "don't have the patience to play a tabletop game." Please excuse me for taking offence. I've had that patience for 30 years, even when I was five and six years old, and I don't like being told that likign a new edition means that I didn't.
4e does nothing new but offers a poorman version of true20 with minis.
Obviously, I disagree. True20 had some innovative ideas, many of which I like, but it is clearly a different animal than 4e.
- Ashavan
One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d*~#*+$s will be playing 4E.
Ok, I'm rather new here, so maybe I should wait before posting... but well...
I like 4e. I've been playing D&D since 1986, when I was 10 yo. I believe I have the patient and the intellect to play any RPG, and I4m played and GMed dozens of different RPGs engines for 22 years. And yet I like 4e.
I like 3e too, and I really love PfRPG. It has the choses that I love in 4e (at will power, every level has rewards...) but it still sounds like 3.5e.
So yes, I think I will be playing those two great games, D&D 4e and PfRPG.
And I came here seeking people who share the love for PfRPG... not people hating 4e.
So my question is, is it compulsory to hate 4e here? To be a PfRPG I need to speak bad of 4e?
Because if that's the case, I guess I'm coming back to EN World and cancelling my Pathfinder subscription...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d+~!@~!s will be playing 4E.
Just because you don't understand 4e doesn't mean you have to bad mouth those who do. There's room for everyone on these boards, even people that attack others to hide their shameful lack of comprehension. I'm sure if you look hard enough, you will eventually find someone with the patience and intellect to explain the game to you.
One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d*~%~$~s will be playing 4E.
Thank you. I continually fail to see how people think that anyone who likes 4th ed is a retard or a 'd%%~#%$'. I am really enjoying Pathfinder alpha, but I am also enjoying 4th ed. Granted, it is more simplistic, but that does not mean it is for dumb people. A lot of d20 players argue constantly that World of Darkness' StoryTeller system is inferior because it lacks complexity. Lack of complexity means very little in terms of fun, or intelligence.
I like to think that I am a fairly intelligent person (I am doing a double degree, soon to be followed by my honours year) and I do not believe that because one system is different to what you like it is inferior.
As I pointed out in vain before (the voice of reason will win one day) everyone likes different stuff. Some amazing folks can even like more than one thing. It's kinda like you have one lover, I have a harem - I win. People can enjoy lots of things, it's magical.
I will put it simply so that some people can grasp:
I like Pathfinder and 4th Ed. Not everyone who likes 4th Ed is a retard. Likewise, not everyone who likes Pathfinder is a genius or a god.
People, grow up, stop coating your books in whatever or using them as doorstops. The jokes are old after a single week. Let them die.
I came to this forum hoping to see people who were a little open minded, evidently, there are morons everywhere. *sigh*
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d%#~*++s will be playing 4E.
I'll be playing 4e. I may like Pathfinder better, but I'm not against a game of 4e once and a while. It might not be my home game but ...
Oh, whoops, look at the time. I have to go defend my doctoral thesis.
Yours,
Dr. D@&&$~~
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d@@*+~@s will be playing 4E.
Oh, I fidget and squirm at the game table...sometimes I have to get up to pee several times an hour! I'm distracted by bright shiny objects, and most of the time they throw minis in the corner so that I go over there to play with them. Big numbers hurt my brain.... :(
Thank you, Ben, for pointing out 4e! I doubt I would have had the "patience and/or intellect" to even figure that out!
As I pointed out in vain before (the voice of reason will win one day) everyone likes different stuff. Some amazing folks can even like more than one thing. It's kinda like you have one lover, I have a harem - I win. People can enjoy lots of things, it's magical.
What Blakeus said...I have a harem, too. It IS magical. Oh, yes. Magical. ;-)
I have been playing for 18 years, and in that time the one constant I have seen in the gaming industry is change. I understand why games go through new editions ( to fix glitches, update material, and keep the momentum going for more revenue. Also,I understand why there are growing pains going from one edition to another ( changes in rules, concepts, etc). No one likes change, and change for the sake of change is worst of all. However, the constant all of us have to keep in mind (supporters and haters of 4e both) is fun. The game is supposed to be fun.
Regardless of what decade, rule system, or setting you choose, it has to be fun. Some would say that 'the play's the thing'. In that story is what is important and makes the game fun. These can be told regardless of the system used. Others would argue to 'cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war'. In other words, the combat is what would make it fun. That also, can be found in any system. Other would argue that solving a mystery is the key (sorry, can't think of a good Willy S. quote for that one). In the end, it all comes down to fun.
So, the real question we should be asking is are the changes made for 4e fun?
Also, how do I get an avatar to go along with my posts? I am pretty basic when it comes to this stuff. The term is noob, right?
One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d$#$@*+s will be playing 4E.
Inflammitory statements like this bring nothing to the table. If you don't like 4e there is a wonderful game being created on these very boards. Many folks will be playing 4e, and loving it for its respective merits. Others will stay with earlier editions and having just as much fun. Some will migrate to Pathfinder and go that route. Some will do all three, while juggling the occasional CoC or WOD game.
Insulting others and inferring that if they like 4e they aren't smart enough to play 3.5 D&D only reflects badly on yourself, and unfortunately on the Paizo community as a whole. You may not like it, but the numbers don't lie: 4e is a hit. It will be the focus of a majority of gamers who still do pen and paper. That being said, there is plenty of other 'indie' places to go (including here) if you don't like the way the game is moving. We should all respect our differences, there really aren't so many of us out there that we can afford to divide the community further with incendiary remarks.
Your husband would probably have a better time playing True20, Fairy Tale or any of the other lighter RPGs out on the market, enjoyment does not institute a faithful sequel to dungeons and dragons. So when you hear people say that Pathfinder feels more faithful to the original material, its because it has streamlined things without taking away the traditional interactive character feel of the game. 4e is a nice system if i was in the mood for something between board game and rpg.
With due respect, we've both been playing the game for 20 plus years and can decide for ourselves. My husband has looked at True20, but balks at the fact that the game engine is built on 3.5 and has many of what he sees as shortcomings to the system.
I don't think wotc did a thing wrong with its PR. WOTC wants to bring in mmo and ccg players and its made no hesitation about detailing that. Face it, its a bigger market and obviously one where little kids will spend hundreds of dollars a month on. D&D has always been a tradionally cheap hobby kept alive by fans whoknow that no ones making a killing off of it.little kids don't have hundreds of dollars, and parents don't willingly give up THAT much money. Wizards lack of PR has to do mostly with silence on issues that I believe they should talk about up front. With unreasonable delays. With a feeling of dismissiveness that is evident in their posts and writing. With unkept promises about what they'd do with d&d insider and the magazines in the time before the release of the new edition.
If you feel unwanted, join the club. I don't even go to enworld much anymore because of all the people who love shiny and new over there. It pretty much cements my theory that there are few dms who see dungeonmastering as a craft as opposed to a hindering job they must do to play the game. 4e eliminates DM choice and calls it streamlining. Many choices eliminated because a lot of those who dm don't want to take the time to...It just sounds like your husband now likes a simpler game, and that's fine, but dungeons and dragons has never been, historically, a simple game.
As for Wizards PR, they made a bad PR move if you think that their PR was targeting you. But it is evident and has been stated that they could care less about the person whose been playing for decades. They have "reinvented" dungeons and dragons for the CCG and mMO crowd and wish to show it off. They even have an online component that is also 15 dollars a month that adds some cool graphix to the game.
I am surprised that you have never heard of the CCG market? it's huge and though these kids don't earn money, they certainly spend up to 100s of dollars a month on cards and ccg stuff. This is a lucrative market. MMOS make billions a year, why wouldn't WOTC want to figure out a way to get in on this. And their thought is to use an established brand that they can mangle into the slot.
So my question is, is it compulsory to hate 4e here? To be a PfRPG I need to speak bad of 4e?
Because if that's the case, I guess I'm coming back to EN World and cancelling my Pathfinder subscription...
Doesn't look like it is compulsory to me, LostinBrittany. In fact, my reception here has been quiet good and I'm going to subscribe to Pathfinder as well.
I've played 1E AD&D, 2E, 3E, Call of Cthulhu (pre-d20), Talislanta (non-d20), and who knows how many other RPGs. And I'm also playing 4E. I'd say you're in good company here at Paizo, from what I've seen so far, a few juvenile posts notwithstanding :)
Senior Software Developer
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One other thing:
Anyone out there ever invite someone to your gaming table only to realize he or she lacked the patience and /or intellect to play D&D?
Those d@!#**%s will be playing 4E.
What, do we have to make a new forum called "please argue about 4th edition here and act like idiots" and move all these threads over there so everyone can throw poo at each other?
Knock it off and act like adults. Please.