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Hi all,
I have a bit of an interesting request ....
In my current campaign-world, my co-dm is taking the reigns and we have advanced the Faerunian timeline to the beginnings of the 4th edition era. That being said, we are sticking to 3.5, and nothing but so please take any flames or extraneous discussion elsewhere ...
That being said, I have a quandry. We killed off most of the previous characters of epic level in favor of brand new concepts. One of the few that survived is to be my current character's uncle. To whit, the son of Yamun Kahan that was recently detailed in that Dragon magazine update to the Horde setting.
That being said, the current concept is the son of a Northern Barbarian Priestess and one of Yamun Kahan's sons, who has seen the might of having a strong Navy being the easiest path to conquest of Faerun.
As such, yes, he is going to be a Barbarian/Swashbuckler, having spent most of his life on ships in the North or on the Sword Coast, and the rest among his fellow Tuigan Hordesman. Basically an ersatz Conan-as-pirate (if anyone has seen the Age of Conan game, where barbarians are a "Rogue" type class), though the emphasis of the character will be finesse as well as physical power. The overall goal will be to amass a pirate fleet to take on Umberlee's current champion, a "Davey Jones" like figure, the Captain of an Accursed vessel known as "The Acheron". Of course, the REAL goal will be to build a fleet of looters & Freebooters to invade/conquer Faerun along with the Horde, but you get the point ...
I am looking for a really good build here, both "Fun to play" for the concept, while at the same time being viable and combining strengths as it were.
The options on the table for Base Classes are preferrably no more than two, same for prestige.
This campaign WILL be going to twenty, and is a Pirate/Swashbuckler's game. Yes I will be handing my DM Savage Tide to play with, no I have not read anything about it other than the summary stuff from the very first parts.
SO....
Base Classes: Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Rogue & Fighter (Because those seem to fit flavor and skills most with the whole "Daring" feats from Complete Scoundrel)
Potential Prestige Classes:
Uncanny Trickster (extremely optional), Dervish, Dread Pirate, Scarlet Corsair, Fortune's Friend.
He will most likely be a Chaotic Neutral Tymoran with Luck Feats involved. That however is negotiable depending on Build.
I have been told from an infamy/leadership angle that I will get twice the reknown if I do both Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair for five-level increments, to offset the steep loss in higher level abilities of those PrC's.
I am very torn with how best to jury-rig each build to compare capabilities, as I want to take advantage of Fast-Movement, and Dervish Dance seems to go hand in hand with that, however Swash/Dread seems to be a natural build, and yet the Fortune's Friend retests would go well with the intimidation, feint & bluff abilities of Scarlet Corsair.
We will probably be swapping out Barbarian Rage for another ability from Substitution levels or the like.
Any advice? Please help! I am well aware that this needs to be streamlined and I can't "Do it All", I just am having some serious issues deciding/comparing the tools in question and how I would measure the varying capabilities.
Many Thanks in Advance.
A barbarian/swashbuckler ? O.o
Actually, there was an article in a past dragon, which quite successfully conveyed how Barbarian/Swashbucker combine. To wit:
Barbarian Swashbucklers tend to like the more down to earth swashbuckling lifestyle, i.e. drinking, gaming, wenching. There are examples for the "Curious savage" and the "Passionate Rager", the latter seeming to me the more fitting archtype. It mentions that the Passionate Rager is a person consumed by his passions, "driven into furious battlerages, greats bouts of drinking and firey romance".
Porthos of the 3 Musketeers in other words...
Porthos may be the crudest of the Musketeers and very heavy into wenching, brawling and other low pusuits, however, he is not a barbarian in the cultural sense of the word.
I would go with the whirling frenzy variant barbarian. This grants you evasion while raging.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm
So he's the son of a khan and chooses to follow the beserkgang tradition of his mother's people (keeping in mind that in horse nomad cultures like the Horde, women are little more than chattel) vs the warrior tradions of his father's people. Additionally, he dreams of Lancaster and Flynn while sleeping so goes off to be a pirate.
Now am I saying that a horse nomad couldn't think that naval is the way to go... well, the mongols tried it multiple times... didn't do them no good as thier naval commanders were still horse nomads at heart....
Porthos of the 3 Musketeers in other words...Porthos may be the crudest of the Musketeers and very heavy into wenching, brawling and other low pusuits, however, he is not a barbarian in the cultural sense of the word.
Actually, the Dragon article mentioned him by name as the perfect example of a Barbarian/Swashbuckler. :P
Actually, the Dragon article mentioned him by name as the perfect example of a Barbarian/Swashbuckler. :PPorthos of the 3 Musketeers in other words...Porthos may be the crudest of the Musketeers and very heavy into wenching, brawling and other low pusuits, however, he is not a barbarian in the cultural sense of the word.
And the author is automatically right because he wrote an article?
The 3.5 Barbarian are modeled on Viking Beserkers for the most part. That Porthos has a temper and is as couth as Popeye doesn't make him a Beserker...
Try reading Dumas in between Dragon articles :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
I think that many people here are falling into the trap of assuming that barbarians are controlled by the cultural stereotype of "barbarian." Just because most of the flavor text goes that way does not mean that just because you use the barbarian class you have to be from a hunter-gatherer culture. Perhaps you are a civilized person who has learned to channel a rather nasty temper into combat power. In that case, it still works nicely with the swashbuckler/pirate theme.
In the interest of helping the OP with his request for optimizing rather than just maligning his concept, here's my two cents (bearing in mind that while I enjoy optimizing my characters for whatever I want to do, my knowledge of the classes and feats and stuff is less complete than it could be):
I think that the whirling frenzy variant is an excellent choice for a character that will be based largely on lighter fighting. You still get the STR boost if not the con, and that extra attack will be really handy in the stereotypical pirate crew on pirate crew battle.
Dread Pirate is a cool class with a lot of neat abilities, and you have a choice of whether to be honorable or not as fits your concept. Very flavorful, and very much keeping with the sort of scenario that you described for your character. The reknown abilities would be right up his alley.
Dervish is a fantastic class for fighting, but it does require a fair amount of space to move in, which might not be available on the close quarters of a ship. And the dervish dance does not work with the whirling frenzy variant extra attacks, I'm pretty sure, though it is nasty with TWF...and kusari-gama....I had a player do that once....The downside to Dervish is that it's ridiculously feat intensive, and has a class ability (finesse-able scimitars) that's awesome, but makes you wonder why a finesse based character would be picking up weapon focus scimitar to begin with....
I'm told that most people on the 3.5 CharOp boards agree that swashbuckler is really only good for three levels (until you get the nice INT to damage), so I would recommend taking those three levels, and then sticking with barbarian and prestige classes. Sorry not to comment on any others you mentioned, but I'm not as familiar with them.
Hope this helps!
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So basically you want someone who's a very fast, graceful fighter, but who will occasionally "snap" in combat and go into a frenzy, then?
Here's a couple of ideas:
First, I second the recommendation that you take a look at the "Whirling Frnzy" version of the barbarian's rage from Unearthed arcana (or the SRD) That would work better with someone using a light weapon. Next, since you've mentioned Complete Scoundrel, you might want to take the following skill tricks:
Never Outnumbered
Hidden Blade
Back on Your Feet
Nimble Charge
Twisted Charge
Quick Swimmer
Whip Climber
As far as weapons go, you'll probably want to look at a falchion. Falchions are very "piratey" weapons, as they look like humungous cutlasses. If you're looking hard at luck feats, the ones you'd likely want would be:
Lucky Break (goes with the "barbarian" angle)
Lucky Start (goes with the "swashbuckler" angle)
Sly Fortune
Better Lucky Than Good
You might also want to consider the option of being Rashemi instead; Runescarred Berserkers are nasty.
As far as the "piratey" prestige classes go, you may be better off getting in with some rogue levels instead of (or possibly in addition to) the swashbuckler ones. All that glorious sneak attack damage is even better if you had some to begin with, particularly with the Scarlet Corsair's improved feinting ability, and barbarian/rogue is hardly a weak combination. (Uncanny dodge stacks with itself, for instance, and even the most combat-oriented build can afford to lose one or two points of BAB if there's sneak attack dice on the table) A good "entry mix" might be barbarian 2/rogue 3/and possibly a level of Swashbuckler on top. If you want to skip the rage thing entirely (as it sounds like you might) then, by far, your best bet is a mix of rogue and swashbuckler levels and the Daring Outlaw feat. Rogue 3/swashbuckler 4/Scarlet Corsair 10/Uncanny(or battle) trickster 3 would be a solid fighting build, and is piratey as all heck.
If you want to stay piratey, but focus more on being a brute, maybe instead of swashbuckler, just stay with the barbarian levels and use an anchor on a length of chain as a flail (or a larger one as a pick)? That's got a nice pirate feel to it. Same could be said of using a couple pieces of chain shot as dual-wielded light flails.
And the author is automatically right because he wrote an article?
The 3.5 Barbarian are modeled on Viking Beserkers for the most part. That Porthos has a temper and is as couth as Popeye doesn't make him a Beserker...
Try reading Dumas in between Dragon articles :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Yeah, nice argumentation. "I am right, you are wrong. Pfffffffftttt!!!".
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For those that did nothing but rip on the concept, a giant wet raspberry upon thee, ye big sissies.
Not all swashbucklers need be panzies. For examples, the aforementioned Porthos (I was an avid musketeer and Dumas reader BEFORE becoming a D&D player), Fafhrd from Fritz Leiber's Nehwon chronicles, Conan by Robert Howard, Potentially Rob Roy and other examples abound.
Barbarian is more than the D&D concept which really should be separated out as "Cro Magnon Thug" or "Atavist".
For those of you that did help, and I note you all, I am extremely greatful for the support and suggestions. Thank you!
No, I will not be seeking to Frenzy or Beserker Rage . . but I believe I read a variant on the Al Quadim boards that gave the self-named prestige class's "Dervish Dance" in liu of Rage.
Any assistance that one can provide in finding this would be extremely helpful. If not, I will probably go "whirling frenzy"
Thanks again!
Yamun Kahan's son is Hubadai Kahan, and he is currently (as of 1375 DR) the 'Emperor' of the Kingdom of Yaïmmunahar (note the spelling - the official map in the Dragon article spells it incorrectly). The most current map (with the correct spelling taken from the article) is available HERE. I have an even newer (and better) one, but another site is getting the exclusive for that.
I hope that helps you somewhat, and I just wanted to establish my 'cred' on the subject. ;)
Which 'northern Barbarian' culture are you saying he was from? If he got his 'barbarian' aspect from the Tuigan, then he would be a Horse-Barbarian, and get a completely different build then the standard barb. The nearest canon culture that would give the standard benefits would be the Issacortae or perhaps the Pazruki - neither of which is a Sea-faring race.
The Rus tribe that 'wnadered' into a portal and wound up in Rashemen might be what you need - they originally hailed from the Swordcoast and are Illuskan (the closest thing FR has to standard 'Norse' types). You may want to say the mother was a Rashemi brought up with the Illuskan-Rus traditions.
That gives you the background... but where the hell are you finding an ocean to be a pirate on in the Hordelands? Ed Greenwood has confirmed for me that Yal Tengri (The Great Ice sea) does indeed connect to the Sea of Moving Ice located around ten-Towns, but that is mostly Frozen all-year round and a treacherous journey when not (mountain-sized Icebergs).
Do you plan on being a pirate in Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake)? That has some possibilites, and it does connect to the Sea of Fallen Stars through the Rauthenflow. There is pirate activity known to go on there (reference THIS article), and I have provided some homebrew lore concerning another portal located there (You can read about that in the CandleKeep Compendium Vol.IX), and that network of portals can take you all over Toril - the article was written with a Pirate-based campaign in mind.
Oh, and Hubadai rules over Semphar, because he conquered it for his father, and that nation still pays him tribute, last time I checked. If your guy learned how to be a pirate anywhere, it would have been there, since it is one of the only civilized places that has Tuigan wandering the streets (not that the Semphari are happy with that situation, mind you).
Hope that Helps - Mark
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Has anyone mentioned the Scout from Complete Adventurer? While nominally flavored as a "woodland" type, skirmish seems like an interesting ability here, and scouts make good swashbuckling types. And as for the Barbarian class being "barbaric", I don't think it needs to be pigeonholed like that. In my Japanese-themed campaign, I use the Barbarian class to represent Sohei. Nothing like screaming monks running at you with glaive whirling in front of them. Again, I think Scout/Barbarian could work and would certainly make your character unique.
Sorry. But is this REALLY the right place to discuss this?!
I don't see why this has anything to do with troubleshooting PF.
Why don't you go to RPGnet or similar sites?
(No offense)
Sorry. But is this REALLY the right place to discuss this?!
I don't see why this has anything to do with troubleshooting PF.
Why don't you go to RPGnet or similar sites?
(No offense)
Hey, maybe there are better categories to file this thread under, and maybe this isn't relevant to troubleshooting Pathfinder, but there is no need to ship the OP off to RPGnet or what not. Why alienate posters? The more the merrier right?
And as far as the unlikelihood of a barbarian swashbuckler combination....this is a game right? Who cares if it makes all that much sense....Dark Sun has halfling cannibals....Weis and Hickman created of all things Mongol Dwarves....should I dare even mention Space Hamsters....come on, Space Hamsters were in the official game cannon...he can ask for ideas behind a gnome barbarian for all I care...whatever is enjoyable, right?
come on, Space Hamsters were in the official game cannon
NO! Those poor hamsters! ;)
I think too, this thread should be in another category. This has nothing to do with PF RPG. And maybe there are boards which are better suited to ask about 3.5 optimization. And to express this is not necessarily to berate the OP, but to help him find what he seeks.
That said, I think the class barbarian may be created to represent the primeval warrior archetype, but there's no reason you couldn't multiclass into it and use it's mechanics to represent some character like Porthos, IMO too. In fact, I would like to play such an character. And yes, I have read Dumas and if I remember correctly he's so reckless in combat, that the other musketeers are afraid of him trying to kill himself in battle because of his broken heart. Sounds like a berserker (mind, not in the cultural viking sense) to me.
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Yamun Kahan's son is Hubadai Kahan, and he is currently (as of 1375 DR) the 'Emperor' of the Kingdom of Yaïmmunahar (note the spelling - the official map in the Dragon article spells it incorrectly). The most current map (with the correct spelling taken from the article) is available HERE. I have an even newer (and better) one, but another site is getting the exclusive for that.
I hope that helps you somewhat, and I just wanted to establish my 'cred' on the subject. ;)
Which 'northern Barbarian' culture are you saying he was from? If he got his 'barbarian' aspect from the Tuigan, then he would be a Horse-Barbarian, and get a completely different build then the standard barb. The nearest canon culture that would give the standard benefits would be the Issacortae or perhaps the Pazruki - neither of which is a Sea-faring race.
The Rus tribe that 'wnadered' into a portal and wound up in Rashemen might be what you need - they originally hailed from the Swordcoast and are Illuskan (the closest thing FR has to standard 'Norse' types). You may want to say the mother was a Rashemi brought up with the Illuskan-Rus traditions.
That gives you the background... but where the hell are you finding an ocean to be a pirate on in the Hordelands? Ed Greenwood has confirmed for me that Yal Tengri (The Great Ice sea) does indeed connect to the Sea of Moving Ice located around ten-Towns, but that is mostly Frozen all-year round and a treacherous journey when not (mountain-sized Icebergs).
Do you plan on being a pirate in Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake)? That has some possibilites, and it does connect to the Sea of Fallen Stars through the Rauthenflow. There is pirate activity known to go on there (reference THIS article), and I have provided some homebrew lore concerning another portal located there (You can read about that in the...
Thanks again.
If a board admin wants to move this to a more appropriate category, that's fine. Had multiple windows open when typing the original thread and accidentally posted in the wrong one.
Ooops!
Insofar as Why would he go nautical, he is adapting to the world around him and following in the footsteps of his "Uncle Hubadai".
Thus, he covertly intends to wage war on a different front, building "nautical armies" and applying cavalry concepts to nautical warfare. His mother was going to be a Chieftain's daughter of the Uthgar tribes, FYI.
Your post is being sent to my DM as we speak, as this is definitely helpful for background. Thanks!!!
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A more in-depth response, worthy of your lengthy reply, Markus.
Yamun Kahan's son is Hubadai Kahan, and he is currently (as of 1375 DR) the 'Emperor' of the Kingdom of Yaïmmunahar (note the spelling - the official map in the Dragon article spells it incorrectly). The most current map (with the correct spelling taken from the article) is available HERE. I have an even newer (and better) one, but another site is getting the exclusive for that.
I hope that helps you somewhat, and I just wanted to establish my 'cred' on the subject. ;)
No question on that, sir. You've clearly been reading up on this as much as I (LOVE that Horde Boxed Set and Dragon Article updated)!
Any chance you could pm/email me that expanded map? It would be a great resource for background!!!Or even just the link would do!
Which 'northern Barbarian' culture are you saying he was from? If he got his 'barbarian' aspect from the Tuigan, then he would be a Horse-Barbarian, and get a completely different build then the standard barb. The nearest canon culture that would give the standard benefits would be the Issacortae or perhaps the Pazruki - neither of which is a Sea-faring race.
The Character in question is the fusion of two bloodlines (perhaps three, based on your suggestions). The first is the Uthgardt Northern tribes from the Ten-Towns area, as that is one of the few surviving "points of light" in our Faerun game. (that is to say, not the only civilization, but one of the few bastions of righteousness as opposed to Waterdeep, which has been subverted by Baneites and Sharrans in our game, reflecting the cosmology updates and etc in our own way).
The other side is definitely Tuigan, so any build or flavor suggestions for a Tuigan Horse-Barbarian as opposed to the standard D&D variety would be greatly appreciated. The Sea-Faring aspect is a personal affectation, an extrapolation on Uncle Hubadai's Covert Surveillance of each of the "civilized" Faerunian Nations reminiscent of Attila's fostering with the Romans.I had a previous Hordesman character doing EXACTLY the same thing who was also a son of Yamun Kahan, so we decided when the article updated things to simply make THAT character Hubadai.
The current, as-yet unnamed Swashbuckling Hordesman is going to take things a step further, and surmise that a fusion of unconventional land-warfare AND Naval Power is the ONLY real way to conquer the Faerunian Continent, and from there perhaps outwards, very much in a "sophisticated barbarism" pogrom similar to Mithrandates the Great or Attila.
As such, his plan is to build a fleet of Pirate ships and have them wax STRONG in alliance with other pirates, and then manipulate/lead them to attack in conjunction with a further expansion effort by the Horde. (In our 'Realms campaign, conflict in these lands seems to now revolve around an oppressive Lawful Evil Tyrranny of Shar and Bane in wedded alliance stomping out all Chaotic Resistance). As such, he will be getting both Chaotic Good, Neutral and Evil allies.
The Rus tribe that 'wnadered' into a portal and wound up in Rashemen might be what you need - they originally hailed from the Swordcoast and are Illuskan (the closest thing FR has to standard 'Norse' types). You may want to say the mother was a Rashemi brought up with the Illuskan-Rus traditions.
His mother is pretty much locked-down as a Northerner . . . perhaps his father, one of Hubadai's brother's could be of mixed Tuigan blood. As he was raised predominantly in the Horde, this would inversely justify the need to "indoctrinate" him in their ways predominantly, with limited visits to his mother and half-brother in the North.
That gives you the background... but where the hell are you finding an ocean to be a pirate on in the Hordelands? Ed Greenwood has confirmed for me that Yal Tengri (The Great Ice sea) does indeed connect to the Sea of Moving Ice located around ten-Towns, but that is mostly Frozen all-year round and a treacherous journey when not (mountain-sized Icebergs).
The Point is this character is a helluva traveller and fosters on a boat, more often as not, when visting the North. That trecherous journey is definitely what I had in mind.
Do you plan on being a pirate in Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake)? That has some possibilites, and it does connect to the Sea of Fallen Stars through the Rauthenflow. There is pirate activity known to go on there (reference THIS article), and I have provided some homebrew lore concerning another portal located there (You can read about that in the...
That would be PERFECT for his initial "quest" to prove to his Uncle the worthwhile nature of his plans, and start off his career. Thanks so much. He could "practice his piracy" there in the Gbor Nor, and hone his personal nautical skills on the Rauthenflow.
If you have an interest, this game is intended to run from 1st to 20+, and I'd be glad to keep you updated on him as an "unofficial" NPC.
Thanks again so much for your help!
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Addendum:
Have decided on the following starting Build (he's coming into an existing game of 6th level characters). Finally dropped Dervish from the concept.
Rogue 1 (first level) / Barbarian 1 / Swashbuckler 3,
Going for his first level of Dread Pirate.
DM override granted me appraise as a class-skill for Swashbucklers, as it should have been from the get (and Daniel the Daft, the sample Dread Pirate doesn't make sense in how he has met his requirement).
Will eventually be looking to have the following final build.
Rogue 1/Barb 1/Swashbuckler 3/Dread Pirate 5/ Uncanny Trickster (Buffing Barbarian Class Features) 3/ Scarlet Corsair 7
Have decided to go with Rage and will be looking to supplement with many, many skill tricks.
Any comments/suggestions?