I was thinking; alchemy has always played an important role in medieval/fantasy stories if you stop to think about it, in the stories the potions are almost always created by alchemists with special and exotic ingredients instead of just being a bottle of water with enchantments on it; and personally I find the concept of alchemy-brewed potions much more interesting than just magic potions.
D&D never gave too much attention to this topic, sure there's the Craft (Alchemy) skill, but it's so simple and poorly used, you can create some antitoxin, sunrods, etc... it's not that interesting. So, if there was something I would really like to see in Pathfinder, was a bit more focus on this classical concept of fantasy stories, a more interesting and broader Alchemy skill so that characters could buy/brew themselves potions that had nice effects without being "Magic Potion"... What about a Renerating Potion that needed a troll's blood (along with other ingredients) to be brewed, a night-seeing potion that would need eyes of some creature that sees in the dark, a potion of Strength brewed from a stone giant's muscle, etc... Such a concept would be nice so characters could extract ingredients from monsters' parts.
I know it wouldn't be something easy to implement on Pathfinder, it would be a big add-on to the game and I'm not sure how far the devs are willing to go, but what are your opinions? Maybe if many players also liked the idea, we could help come up with something already to add to the game. Think about it, a more rich alchemy for D&D/Pathfinder, would add a nice touch.
This is how I've always approached it in my games.
But will somebody please kill the spellcasting requirements for Alchemy? That's just...silly.
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But will somebody please kill the spellcasting requirements for Alchemy? That's just...silly.
Not really. Alchemy isn't chemistry, it's magical chemistry. It's not unreasonable to require would-be alchemists to understand the basics of magical manipulation, since alchemy presumably requires some level of magical manipulation below the level of casting a cantrip.
The historical alchemists believe that alchemical reactions were influenced by the will of alchemist, and successful alchemy required advanced training in achieving and maintaining mental states -- this is easily represented as being similar or part of the training to become a spellcaster.
The training could just as easily be represented as ranks in Craft (alchemy) as it could with spellcaster levels.
Or knowledge Arcana and/or Spellcraft. I personally just ask that PCs justify why the learn it. Its either because they were handed down the recepies by the tribal shaman, they studied the formulas in mage academy (and have ranks of spellcraft or knowledge arcana), or they just have a way of sensing how the energy works in the substances involved (reserved for sorcerors, druids, and other "in touch with themselves" characters).
Never been a problem.
But yeah, ditch the spellcasting requirement. It serves almost no purpose mechanically (game balance? giving casters another thing they can do that non-casters cant is improving game balance?) and just stifles creativity. If I hadn't removed the limitation in my games, I wouldn't have had a barbarian who's tribe medicine man had taught the secrets of the liquid flame, and I wouldn't have had a dozen other memorable moments that came from that.
Interesting.
I would see it as something taht is used instead of creating magical potions, rather than besides it.
In this system potion brewing would be a craft check rather than an item creation feat. I like it. How would you set the craft DCs for the potions? Would it be something like 15 + potion caster level, or would it work differently?
In this system potion brewing would be a craft check rather than an item creation feat. I like it. How would you set the craft DCs for the potions? Would it be something like 15 + potion caster level, or would it work differently?
There we go.. that's a start, good idea. A simple rule within the reasons of the game. Now I'd say at least (caster level)*2, just Caster Level look to me like bit low and also there wouldn't be much difference between the levels, not for a skill check.. I mean, 17 or 18 DC doesn't make that much difference. The DC could also increase if you wanted to make a more potent or longer-lasting potion. Special componentes would also be necessary of course.
I agree with what has been said about removing the spellcraft requirement, at least for Alchemical potions (for casters brewing magic potions it's reasonable they'd need some knowledge of spellcraft.. :-p).
This all seem like something that could easily be implemented, I gotta try this on my game.
Lilith, you mentioned you use something of the kind in your games, would mind giving some details?
Lilith, you mentioned you use something of the kind in your games, would mind giving some details?
It was nothing hard and fast, just giving a character a +2/-2 bonus when trying to create certain alchemical items (here's a good inspirational list, and Open Game Content too). For example, using the ground stomachs of fire beetles to create a caustic, flammable paste (useful for all sorts of shady infiltration activities), a distillation of black lotus petals for darkvision, things like that.
Ok... Haven't given this much thought yet, just a quick thought I had now at work.
In the the standard rules for brewing potions, a caster has to pay (25 x Spell Level x Caster Level)GP.
So, I was thnking: For an Alchemist making a potion without spells he would have to pay 3x that amount (for ingredients, containers and something to boil) and DC would be (15 + Spell Level + Caster Level). So we'd have:
Level 1 Potion: DC 17 + 75 gp
Level 2 Potion: DC 20 + 450 gp
Level 3 Potion: DC 23 + 1,125 gp
.
.
.
etc...
One could brew a potion with a higher caster level of course, for higher duration/strength, etc... and so increasing the difficulty and cost.
Additionally, one could extract monsters parts and thus providing some ingredients and reducing the cost. The appropriate skill for extracting monster parts would be Profession(Taxidermy) with a DC of 20 (this can be modified by more or less by the [lack] of knowledge one has about the monster). One could extract an equivalent in GP equals to Monster EL x 10 (again, more exotic/magical beasts could give more while a common Goblin would give out less... so.. maybe this multiplier can be modified by monster types... 20 for magical beasts, 5 for Humanoids... well...).
What you think? It's pretty simple and within the reasoning of the game.
I like this. Here are some ideas I had building off what you've written here.
Let's make the mechanics for brewing potions using alchemy as similar to those using the traditional method. That means:
What do you think?
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Ummm ... just a random thought. Couldn't someone with Use Magic Device be able to duplicate the Brew Potion feat? With a DC 20 UMD, they can emulate a class feature (spellcasting), so I imagine a DC 25 UMD would let you duplicate an Item Creation Feat ... and someone with 5+ ranks in Craft (alchemy) should certainly get a +2 synergy bonus to UMD ... that would allow alchemists to make potions with a minimum of fuss (since they're probably all Experts).
As for the spellcasting prereq for Craft (alchemy), I find it unreasonable ... I've house-ruled that non-spellcasters can use Craft (alchemy), but the DCs are all +5.
Ummm ... just a random thought. Couldn't someone with Use Magic Device be able to duplicate the Brew Potion feat? With a DC 20 UMD, they can emulate a class feature (spellcasting), so I imagine a DC 25 UMD would let you duplicate an Item Creation Feat ...
They probably could but wouldn't be as fun :D :D
Material cost for the potion is 25 x caster level x spell level, using the lowest value for any class. ...
....This means we have potions that cost either 25 gp (1st level) 150 gp (2nd level) or 375gp (3rd level)....
I just put on a higher cost because I thought it might be unfair to Spellcasters who brew potions, I mean, they (Spellcasters) need to cast their spells and expend XP in addition to the cost. An alchemist just paying the same cost without casting any spells or XP seem unjust. And besides... they are casting spells, it's easier this way.. the Alchemist is doing the same potion without the aid of any spell, so it's reasonable they need more material/dedication.
the material cost assumes the alchemist has a fully stocked lab. Gathering (or buying) components for the potion is assumed to be part of the brewing process and doesn't need to be played out. At least not allways. If the alchemist have the ingredients he needs this either impacts the DC or the cost (Im'n not sure how yet).
Yes, the cost would assume he bought everything... but if he didn't buy, there would be no need to spend the money. So I tried this "extract creature parts" thing, but in a simple way, you don't need to specify what parts are there, just how much gp you've got worth from it. Of course, special exotic ingredients should be given particular attention.
But again, you could already work with a reduced cost (like the one you mentioned) and assume the Alchemist is constantly gathering stuffs as he ventures out, much like the Wiz's component pouch.
In the Wilderlands or High Fantasy (Necromancer Games) there is an alchemist class. Thats not a bad place to start.
On the subject, but not alchemy, as non-core classes get added, if they do, is there a way to stay off the innate demonic, dragon brood, super-heroism? I think the creators could just come up with several alternatives, knights, alchemists, warlocks, witches, on and on, without making them unbalanced or too over-powered. I like variety, but not munchkinism.
Oh no oh One-Winged One, we agree perhaps more than you think. The alchemist or the artificer arent really classes to be taken and stuck with very long. Seems players always take it just for this or that as a class ability and move on. Same as a sage. No adventurer want to be a librarian or a lab tech, but aquiring some of their skills for some purpose suits them. Here perhaps the old AD&D ideas stand out. There use to be extensive lists of hirelings for this kind of stuff. Non-adventurer kind of stuff that needs done. I think as characters, they could both be booted really. Make'em NPC's and milk the PC's of their gold; having to go to them for their expertice.
I like these idea a lot and I would like to offer these suggestions:
The systems presented here could be used in other professions or crafts to allow creation of low powered one-shot magic-items by highly skilled individuals with access to exotic material. Lillith’s virtual-cookies are suspiciously sought after …;)
I would keep the standard time frame as suggested by Chef Slaad, I think that would prevent, strike that, LIMIT abuse of large scale production by NPCs and states. I might suggest an option for fast-crafting with higher DC for PCs who won’t like spending days brewing low-powered stuff, especially since Alpha 3 offers the great option of crafting potions and scribing scrolls on the road.
I would also suggest that the extraction of exotic material could be done with many crafts or profession: taxidermy as mentioned, butchery, apothecary and leather-working are all involved in chopping up and digging in. Even survival could be used, possibly at a higher DC.
I don't like the concept of taking days and days to make a potion... what could take so long? you extract the ingredients from raw materials, boil them or something, mix them up and voi'la! Please no lecture on potion making here, I'm just saying it looks weird for me taking 5 days to brew a potion. A full day is a long time already, and the cost is pretty high, 3x the normal for a spellcaster, it's enough to limit the mass production.
Now, higher DCs? That could be, it's a delicate matter mixing up those things... what would you suggest? I said 15 + Caster Level + Spell Level, maybe 2*Spell Level???
Alchemist as a class? Doesn't sound bad, but the game in itself would have to change a lot, in D&D everything revolves around magic and magical stuff, there's no place for someone as an alchemist unless he's a spellcaster (note that I'm against this concept, one of the reasons I started the topic... make the game less "Harry Potterish")
I was thinking; alchemy has always played an important role in medieval/fantasy stories if you stop to think about it, in the stories the potions are almost always created by alchemists with special and exotic ingredients instead of just being a bottle of water with enchantments on it; and personally I find the concept of alchemy-brewed potions much more interesting than just magic potions.
Agreed. Similarly, I'd like to see more development on herbology. However, Alchemy fits better with the fantastic part of medieval-fantasy than the medieval part, as Alchemy (both as a philosophy and as a base for chemistry) was developed in early renaissance rather than the middle ages. (as of most things with a "scientific approach")
Within the present d20 paradigm where spells are relatively available, it seems more simple to learn how to use magic than devote your life to the pursuit of Alchemy (or herbology for that matter). If magic wasn't so available, or if alchemy/herbology was able to offer different options to existent spells, it would make a worthwhile class or skill. Within the present magic context, I'm afraid it would be reduced to a class that doesn't encourage adventuring or a skill that is either to lame or too difficult to master not to turn every character into a spellcaster (effectively).
Within a low-magic setting however, Alchemy and Herbology could be developed into a superb alternative to spellcasting.
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I've got a folder full of alchemical stuff, culled from core, splats and a few 3rd party sources (the items from the Dragon Compendium and the items from the Player's Guide to Kalamar being the best balanced).
About the only thing I'd want changed is the removal of the spellcaster requirement, and perhaps the option to increase the efficiency of an alchemical mixture (similar to the process in the Epic Handbook, but available to non-Epic characters).
I would love to see alchemy get some expanded use and function in the game.
I'm unhappy with alchemy in it's current state, and would be happy if it got some additional love, via pathfinder.
I don't like the concept of taking days and days to make a potion... what could take so long? you extract the ingredients from raw materials, boil them or something, mix them up and voi'la! Please no lecture on potion making here, I'm just saying it looks weird for me taking 5 days to brew a potion. A full day is a long time already, and the cost is pretty high, 3x the normal for a spellcaster, it's enough to limit the mass production.
Now, higher DCs? That could be, it's a delicate matter mixing up those things... what would you suggest? I said 15 + Caster Level + Spell Level, maybe 2*Spell Level???
...
Maybe the spellcasting requisite could be the solution to faster-brewing (or cobbling or baking). It could be DC 15 + 2xCaster Level + 2xSpell level minus Brewer’s Caster Level and/or Minus expended Spell-slot Level in the process to use the GP instead of SP in calculation of required time. I’d need to see how the math comes out to be sure but it could work.
Another way of keeping fast-brewing out of mass-production situations would be to have dangers in fast-brewing. You screw-up, you blow up or melt down or zap-out, etc. That would keep the process out of normal business practices and it ties in with the alchemist’s vibe.
2x Caster Level is a lot... I mean, a 3º level potion would have a 31 DC... and assuming with some feats/ranks requirement one could brew higher level potions, a 4º level potion would be nearly impossible with a 37 DC and a 5º level potion would be crazy with a 43 DC!! Why would anyone want this....
I'm still against the spellcasting requirements however... let spellcasters magically enchant their potions and alchemists brew them with their herbs/exotic monster parts and knowledge. I see it as two different things.
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I Like the idea of Prestige class Alchemists personally. Keep in mind Alchemy is not Chemistry. Any spell caster should be able to create alchemical solutions. It should be Craft based, with a few feats thrown in to help.
Diferentiate between Alchemy and Herbalism. My homebrew campaign has it set up. I modified the 3.0 Prestige cass of master alchemist and that fills that niche...then created an extensive list of Herbs that can be used by an Herbalist....One is magical the other is natural. It works. Its fun, and adds a flare to the game.
Diferentiate between Alchemy and Herbalism.
Absolutely, they could work together, one adding to the other, but two independent things.
My homebrew campaign has it set up. I modified the 3.0 Prestige cass of master alchemist and that fills that niche...then created an extensive list of Herbs that can be used by an Herbalist....One is magical the other is natural. It works. Its fun, and adds a flare to the game.
Where did you get this prestige class? Would you mind giving a little more detail on how your system works? I like to see more ideas...
Where did you get this prestige class? Would you mind giving a little more detail on how your system works? I like to see more ideas...
Master alchemist appeared in the Magic of Faerun book.
Master alchemist appeared in the Magic of Faerun book.
Oh, thanks Lilith.. gonna take a look at it. Is it nice, you use it?
Oh, thanks Lilith.. gonna take a look at it. Is it nice, you use it?
I love the Master Alchemist. One of the best prestige classes in that book - I used the whole book pretty extensively when I ran a Forgotten Realms game. It is 3.0, so there is a little tweaking that needs to be done.
Have to admit I never understood why Brew Potion didn't require Alchemy skill, and vice versa. Or why the two mechanics weren't merged/standardized. Pick a mechanic, I say, and stick with it. If Craft (alchemy) is a viable skill, use it for magic item production... anyone ever read Poul Anderson's Operation Luna? Really great parts about use of exotic ingredients in magic item creation (and not just potions, either). If feats are to be used instead, then make Alchemy a feat and be done with it. But this 3.0 artifact of partial mixing and matching is pointlessly "fiddly," in my opinion.
I think all that's needed are more potions and elixirs. The Craft (Alchemy) skill seems just fine to me as it is.
I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. The reason for this is, that alchemy is at its heart a spiritual science and an entire paradigm of magic. This historicially fascinating subject and its modern practices, especially where related to Jungian psychology will inevitiably be solf short by any D20 based game that deals with it.
Alchemy is a subject more than rich enough to be the subject of an entire game line. After all, the purificiation and transmutation of the soul, is hardly a theme that meshes well with Killing sentiant creatures and takin' their stuff.
I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. (...)
Alchemy is a subject more than rich enough to be the subject of an entire game line. After all, the purificiation and transmutation of the soul, is hardly a theme that meshes well with Killing sentiant creatures and takin' their stuff.
As oposed to Martial Arts, Druidism, Hermetic Magic, Religious Awakening, Shamanism, Witchcraft, etc?
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Diferentiate between Alchemy and Herbalism.Absolutely, they could work together, one adding to the other, but two independent things.
Where did you get this prestige class? Would you mind giving a little more detail on how your system works? I like to see more ideas...
My homebrew campaign has it set up. I modified the 3.0 Prestige cass of master alchemist and that fills that niche...then created an extensive list of Herbs that can be used by an Herbalist....One is magical the other is natural. It works. Its fun, and adds a flare to the game.
sure...First the Herbalism part...anyone can take this profession...
Note: Healing ranks 1 allows 'Binding Wounds' one time a day per character....recovering 1 point for bandage changes and the like, modified by herbs....
Profession Herbalist
Allows a character to take 10 when using herbs. Untrained may not take 10 when utilizing an herb but must make a Herbalist check to use any herb. Untrained may only use herbs of Plentiful, Common, or Uncommon categories. Rare and above must used by someone with training. A successful Herbalist check allows the capabilities of the herb to be unlocked fully.
Preparation of herbs takes 10 minutes and after prepared if not used within 4 hours it goes bad.
The Herb Tables
Category: Is how abundant and readily available the herb is.
DC: Is the Difficulty Class of the using the Herb. Failure means a use was spoiled and has no effects.
Cost: is for 10 uses (1 ounce)
Availability: Ties into Category by placing a % roll on a given shop having any...or finding it in the wild.
Plentiful: DC- 5 Cost 1 CP Availability: 90%
1. Dandelion (Stems) made into Tea. Helps Prevent Disease.
+2 on Fo Saves vs Disease for a duration of 1 day after drinking tea.
2. Extripia <The Marching Plant> (Seeds) Seeds Boiled and treated. Reduces Fatigue. Reduces level of fatigue with FO save at +2 DC 10. a natural 20 reduces fatigue 2 levels (ie from exhausted to normal)
3. Fanosel (Leaves) Toxin. The Smoke from burning treated leaves.
FO Save DC 10 or sleep for 1d4 hours.
4. Garlic (Buds) Vampire/Insect Repellant. Apply Paste to skin.
Insects Save at Will Save DC 12. Vampires at DC 30 to come adjacent to. Lasts 1 day per application
5. Hreychor (Stems) Fertility Drug. made into Tea. +25% Conception
6. Sphangnum Moss (Moss) Dressing...aids in binds. Allows Cons Bonus to be added to days healing...ie level + con Bonus. lasts for next day after bind only.
Common: DC 8 Cost- 5 CP. Availability 80%
1. Comfrey <Mothers Leaf> (Leaves) Aids in healing. Appled in dressing for binds. Doubles normal healing. Doesn't work with any other herbal remedies.
2. Drunkards Bane (Tubers) Restores Sobriety. Boiled and eaten. Induces Nausea for 2-24 R...failure of a Fort Save at DC 14 causes vomiting during the 2-24 R causing d4 damage. but sobriety occurs.
3. Licorice Root (Roots) Prevents Nausea. Cooked and eaten. +2 to nausea saves for 4 hours.
4. Mynon (Petals) Strengthens materials from smoke puts off. Adds 2 to hardness for 4 hours.
5. Olrui (Pollen) Toxin through spore contact. FO Save at DC 12 or sleep for 1-3 hours.
6. Rasakile (Leaves) Contraceptive .Chewed and swallowed. -25% from Conception.
Uncommon: DC 10 Cost- 1 SP. Availability- 60%
1. Aniseed (seeds) Prevents Tracking by scent by spreading treated crushed seeds on ground. FO Save DC 14 or lose 'scent' ability for 20-50 rounds.
2. Belladonna (Flowers) Toxin through Spore Contact. DC 15 FO Save or -2 to all skill checks, to hit and saves for 1 day.
3. Meditant (Flowers) Psychic Restorative from tea. Restores 1-4 Psi Power points.
4. Peppermint (Stalk) Crushed stalks oil neutralizes Stun effect if applied to skin on face. Allows a second save at +2. can be applied prior nd keeps for 4 hours.
5. Trinut (Nut) a prepared nut is equal to a single meal.
6. Woundwort (Sap of leaf) Stops bleeding. Stabalizes character with no healing check.
Rare: DC 12 Cost- 1 GP. Availability: 50%
1. Adders Tongue (Flowers) Curative Bind applied in dressing. adds +1 to Bind Wounds.
2. Echinacea (Root) Curative for Disease Filth Fever. as Tea. Must be taken for 3 days after contracting disease or will relapse.
3. Elprequir (Flowers) Aids Resisting Mental Control if drank as tea. adds +2 to Charm/Domination saves for 4 hours
4. Fletharane (Flowers) Aids in combatting Fear if drank as tea. +2 to fear saves for 4 hours.
5. Cowslips (Stems) Restores Sanity drank as tea. 20% Cures Madness. May only be tried once.
6. Camomile (Leaves) Curative for Disease 'Slimy Doom' if applied as paste on skin for 2 days. If Not relapse occurs.
7. Habsalura (Leaves) Manna Restorative. drank as tea. restores 1-4 spell levels.
8. Linden Flower (Flower) Curative for Disease 'Mind Fire' if drank as tea for 2 days. If not relapse occurs.
9. Nightshade (Flowers) Toxin if crushed and treated petals are eaten. DC 14 FO save or paralyzed for 1-4 hours
10. Poplar Bud (Flower Buds) Curative for Disease 'Shakes" if smoke inhaled for 1 hour a day for 2 days. If not relapse occurs.
11. Spell Shield (Berries) Shields vs magic effects if paste from treated berries applied to skin. +2 for Spell Saves for 4 hours.
12. Yarrow (Stems) Curative for Disease Devil Chills if drank as tea for 4 days. If not relapse occurs.
Very Rare: DC 15 Cost 10GP. Availability 40%
1. Aarons Rod (whole plant) Curative Bind. Doesnt work in conjunction with any other curative bind. the plant ground to paste form applied in dressing. +2 to Bind
2. Arva (Flowers) Restores Strength if drank as tea. restores 1-4 temporary lost strength points or 1 permanent lost point. may only be used once day per character drinking tea.
3. Berlick (Leaves) Restores Constitution if drank as tea. restores 1-4 temp lost points or 1 permanent point. may only be used once a day per character
4. Cereboral (seeds) Restores Intelligence if drank as teas. restores 1-4 temp points or 1 perm point. may only be used once a day per character
5. Lavender (Flowers) Restores Charisma if paste applied to face and body. restores 1-4 points of temp loss or 1 point of perm loss. may only be used once a day per character.
6. Lavaryctia (Leaves) Toxin if ingested. DC 18 FO save or sleep for 5-20 hours
7. Joldraiven (Leaves) Equine Stimulant if cooked and eaten. increases mounts move X@ for 1-4 hours, then must rest for same ammount or become exhausted.
8. Meadowsweet (Leaves) Disease Curative vs Cackle Fever if drank as tea, must be drank for 2 days or relapse occurs.
9. Metysso (Sap of plant) Prepared Ink for creating magical scrolls.
10. Pulcis (Flowers) Restores Wisdom if drank as tea. resroes either 1-4 temp loss or 1 perm loss.
11. Quesel <True Root> (Tuber) Aids in Poison Resistance if boiled an eaten. Allows +2 to Poison Saves for 1 day.
12. Red Clover (Whole Plant) Restores Dexterity if drank as tea. Restores 1-4 temp or 1 perm. see others...
13. Tirageth (Stems) Aids in resisting Confusion and similar effects if drank as tea. Allows +2 to Confusion/Chaos and such saves for 8 hours.
14. Tumeric Root (Root) Disease Curative for Red Ache if boiled and eaten. Must be taken for 3 days or relapse occurs.
15. WillowBark (Bark) Disease Curative vs Blinding Sickness if paste is applied below eyes for 3 days or relapse occurs.
Extremely Rare: DC 18 Cost 25 GP Availability 30%
1. Dashenka (Leaves) Toxin if ingested. DC 13 FO save or lose 1 dex immediatly and 1-4 later if second save failed.
2. Elder Flower (Whole Plant) Disease Curative vs Demon Fever if drank as tea. Must be taken for 2 days or relapse occurs.
3. Rosemary Leaf (Leaves) Neutralizes Paralysis if paste is rubbed on muscles.
4. Teranya (Stems) Restores Senses if drank as tea. Restores 1 lost sense per day of taking prepared tea.
5. Witch Hazel (Whole Plant) Curative Bind if paste is applied in dresssing. May not be used with any other curative bind. +3 to Bind
6. Witch Weed (Leaf) Cuts off connection to magic with spore contact. Will Save DC 15 to cast any spells for 5-20R if fail FO save DC 15.
Scarce: DC 20 Cost 100 GP Availaibilty 25%
1. Bloodroot (Root) Toxin if it enters the blood stream. may be aplied to weapon in paste DC 12 FO save or -1d3 Wis points and secondary damage of 1d4 con points.
2. Devils Claw (Root) Disease Curative if paste applied to skin vs Mummy Rot. Must be applied for 6 days or relapse occurs.
3. Ghostroot (Root) Repels Undead with spore contact. Turns undead as 6th level cleric with cha of 0
4. Hawthorn Berry (Berries) Aids in Preventing Petrification if prepared berry is eaten. +2 to Petrification saves for 4 hours
5. Id Moss (Moss) Toxin *Cost= 125GP. if ingested DC 14 FO save or -1d4 Int primary and -2d6 Int secondary
6. Kargele (Berries) Curative Bind if paste applied in dressing. May not be combinded with any other curative binds. +4 to bind
7. Misteltoe Berries (Berries) Toxin if ingested DC 13 FO save -1 Con Primary/-1d6 Con secondary
8. Stiltrassa (Stalk) Aids in preventing poison if drank as tea. +2 save for poison for 4 hours and allows herbalism check to replace save if failed already.
9. Striped Toadstool (Toadstool) Toxin *Cost 180 GP if ingested DC 11 FO save or lose 1 Wis primary and secondary -2d6 Wis and 1d4 Int.
10. Wolves Bane <Monks Hood> (Whole Plant) Toxin *Cost 750GP. Also Neutralizes Lycanthropy. Save using Fort of DC 20. May use Herbalism check if herbalism adminsters, to cure Lycanthopy. Also must make additional FO save DC 13 or suffer 1d6 primary St Loss and secondary of 2d6.
Very Scarce: DC 25 Cost 250 GP Availability 10%
1. Cinnabar (Pollen) Manna Boost if drank in tea. +2 to caster level for 4 hours.
2. Gaethipa (Leaves) Toxin if spore contact. DC 15 FO save or loss of 1 ST Primary/1d4 St secondary
3. Arsenic (Leaves) Toxin if ingested DC 13 FO save or primary loss of 1 Con/secondary loss of 1d6 Con.
5. Lunalaurel (Whole Plant) Restores Lost Levels if drank as tea. 1-4 temp or 1 permanent per day of drinking.
6. Mandrake Root (Root) Curative Bind if podered root applied in dressing. may not be combined with any other curative bind. +5 to Bind
7. Sasso Leaf (Leaf) Toxin *Cost 300 GP with spore contact. FO save Dc 16 or primary loss 2d6 Hit Point loss Permanent/secondary loss 1d6 Con.
Extremely Scarce: DC 30 Cost 500+ GP Availabilty 5%
1. Black Lotus (Flower) Toxin Cost- *5,000 GP Spore Contact. DC 20 FO Save or Primary loss 3d6 Con. secondary loss of 3d6 Con
2. Malyss Root (Root) Toxin spore contact DC 16 FO save or priamry loss 1 DX. secondary loss 2d4 dex.
3. Purple Lotus <Fever Balm> (Flower) Keep dead from passing into afterworld at Deaths Door. Must be applied within 10 rounds of death as smoke from burning prepared flower. Stops death from any source for 8 hours.
4. Terinav Root (Root) Toxin *Cost- 750GP spore contact. DC 16 FO save or primary 1d6 dex loss and secondary 2d6 dex loss.
5. Wylorafina (Flowers and leaves) Toxin *Cost- 1,000 GP. if ingested DC 16 Fo save or lose primary 2d6 Con and 2d6 str. secondary 2d6 con and 2d6 str.
6. Yellow Lotus <Beorunnas Cure-All> (Stems) Curative if inhaled. Sleep for 24 hours no save. Cures all diseases/wounds/conditions. Doesnt cure poisons
7. Yulpris (Whole Plant) Universal Antidote. Cures all diseases and poisons. does not restore lost ability scores.
Next The "Master Alchemist" Prestige Class
Hit Die: d6
Weapons: none gained
Armor: none gained
Skills: Craft: Alchemy, Bluff, Concentration, Knowledge: Arcanna, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft.
Requirements: Craft- Alchemy 8 ranks, Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcane 8 ranks. Brew Potion Feat. Skill Focus: Alchemy. Able to cast 3rd level spells. Must have Alchemy Lab.
Attack Progression: Poor
Save Progression: Good for Fort and Will. Poor for Reflex
All levels continue to advance in original Spellcasting Class (ie +1 to existing class in spells per day)
1st.....Identify Potion or Alchemical Item (Get Alchemist Level as Competence Bonus vs these checks. Brewmaster: Can Brew 2 potions a day and gets a cost reduction of 10% on creating Potions or Alchemical Items
2nd.....Brew Potion I: Can make Potions from 4th Level spells. Can Neutralize Paralysis on DC 15 with Competence Bonus of half Alchemist level
3rd.....Brew Potion II: Can make potions from 5th level spells. Can Neutralize Fear on DC 15 with Competance Bonus of half Alchemist Level.
4th.....Brew Potion III: Can Make Potions from 6th level spells. Can Brew an Acid that does d6+1 per caster level (at gain d6+3) to maximum of +10.
5th.....Brewmaster II: Can Make 3 potions a day and gets 20% reduction in cost of creating Potions and Alchemical Items
6th....Improved Identification- Can identify a Potion as a move action with no cost.
7th....Brew Potion IV: Can make potions from 7th level spells and can reduce level of fatigue one step on a successful DC check of 15 with a competence bonus of half the Alchemists level.
8th....Brew Potion V: Can make potions from 8th level spells and gains a circumstance bonus of +2 to resist Poisons.
9th....Brewmaster III: Can make 4 potions a day and gains a 30% reduction in the cost to make potions and alchemical items.
10th...Brew Potion VI: Can make potions from 9th level spells and gets a +2 circumstance bonus vs saves harmful trasmutation spells (such as petrification or polymorph)
there you go....
I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. The reason for this is, that alchemy is at its heart a spiritual science and an entire paradigm of magic. This historicially fascinating subject and its modern practices, especially where related to Jungian psychology will inevitiably be solf short by any D20 based game that deals with it.
Depends: I would rather say that the old alchemist practiced chemistry with a broader understanding of natural laws as we have today. It was no more magical than astronomy.
I guess you guys didn't buy a third party product called "Alchemy and Herbalism"? Not perfect, and its 3.0 too, but I found it largely usable and certainly very inspirational. I think it was by Bastion Press, but since its not in front of me I am not certain.
Still, with the info here in this thread any DM has a great start towards cool Alchemy and Herbalism practitioners in their games.
Edit: Especially your write up Dread. Nice work.
Plentiful: DC- 5 Cost 1 CP Availability: 90%
1. Dandelion (Stems) made into Tea. Helps Prevent Disease.
+2 on Fo Saves vs Disease for a duration of 1 day after drinking tea.2. Extripia <The Marching Plant> (Seeds) Seeds Boiled and treated. Reduces Fatigue. Reduces level of fatigue with FO save at +2 DC 10. a natural 20 reduces fatigue 2 levels......
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Damn man.. where did you get this list? You actually play with this? I was thinking of something far less complex... but thanks a lot, it'll be of great help no doubt.
As opposed to Martial Arts, Druidism, Hermetic Magic, Religious Awakening, Shamanism, Witchcraft, etc?I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. (...)
Alchemy is a subject more than rich enough to be the subject of an entire game line. After all, the purification and transmutation of the soul, is hardly a theme that meshes well with Killing sentient creatures and takin' their stuff.
Slime is right. While all these things (Alchemy, Martial Arts, Religion, Shamanism, etc...) are indeed based in real life concepts, they are all by far 100% accurate, they work as they should in a fantasy world. Their point here is not to mimic the same real-life concepts so people can understand about Spirituality/Martial Arts, etc... but to provide something we can have fun with, giving us freedom to experiment with things we wouldn't never do otherwise.
But you know, those things make sense enough assuming magic does exist as it does in D&D. Potion-makers did exist and still do (while not much respected anymore), people with knowledge of herbs and other ingredients would provide concoctions for people's needs just as we have our modern medicine now; and what is a medical pill but a more technological-advanced herbal concoction? Potions brewed with mystical/magical properties is not something of D&D, people would believe in decoctions like these, and, again, assuming D&D-magic does exists, why can't they be real? Today we have steroids, in more ancient times I'm sure it was already possible to brew something that would boost your physical abilities (yes, it would be toxic and have nasty side effects, but I'm sure it's not impossible to be done since steroids come from natural ingredients at some base), and in D&D you have magic to do this, and it can be made into a "drug" (a potion, via our magic-fantasy alchemy).
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Plentiful: DC- 5 Cost 1 CP Availability: 90%
1. Dandelion (Stems) made into Tea. Helps Prevent Disease.
+2 on Fo Saves vs Disease for a duration of 1 day after drinking tea.2. Extripia <The Marching Plant> (Seeds) Seeds Boiled and treated. Reduces Fatigue. Reduces level of fatigue with FO save at +2 DC 10. a natural 20 reduces fatigue 2 levels......
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.Damn man.. where did you get this list? You actually play with this? I was thinking of something far less complex... but thanks a lot, it'll be of great help no doubt.
As opposed to Martial Arts, Druidism, Hermetic Magic, Religious Awakening, Shamanism, Witchcraft, etc?I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. (...)
Alchemy is a subject more than rich enough to be the subject of an entire game line. After all, the purification and transmutation of the soul, is hardly a theme that meshes well with Killing sentient creatures and takin' their stuff.Slime is right. While all these things (Alchemy, Martial Arts, Religion, Shamanism, etc...) are indeed based in real life concepts, they are all by far 100% accurate, they work as they should in a fantasy world. Their point here is not to mimic the same real-life concepts so people can understand about Spirituality/Martial Arts, etc... but to provide something we can have fun with, giving us freedom to experiment with things we wouldn't never do otherwise.
But you know, those things make sense enough assuming magic does exist as it does in D&D. Potion-makers did exist and still do (while not much respected anymore), people with knowledge of herbs and other ingredients would provide concoctions for people's needs just as we have our modern medicine now; and what is a medical pill but a more technological-advanced herbal concoction? Potions brewed with mystical/magical properties is not something of D&D, people would believe in decoctions like these, and, again,...
yep, sure do. I compiled the list over an extensive time gaming. everytime a new herb/natural poison was listed I added it to my list. Also added it from resources of 'natural remedies'.
Ill admit, Ive only seen 1-2 players over the years use all of it...most key in on one or two they like and focus on buying those....repeatedly. But, like most things..I prefer to leave optimum choices for role playing in the players hands. Which is why I'm now in the Pathfinder camp.
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Have to admit I never understood why Brew Potion didn't require Alchemy skill, and vice versa. Or why the two mechanics weren't merged/standardized. Pick a mechanic, I say, and stick with it. If Craft (alchemy) is a viable skill, use it for magic item production... anyone ever read Poul Anderson's Operation Luna? Really great parts about use of exotic ingredients in magic item creation (and not just potions, either). If feats are to be used instead, then make Alchemy a feat and be done with it. But this 3.0 artifact of partial mixing and matching is pointlessly "fiddly," in my opinion.
I think the incorporate of Craft skills into Item Creation feats makes perfect sense now, given the more open skills in PRPG, and with the elimination of XP costs.
Replacing XP costs with skill-point costs (ie. take a feat AND have a decent rank in a skill) certainly makes for a more interesting game. Of course, the DM should roll, and any natural 1 could result in a cursed item...hehehe.
I’m not sold on the idea of adding new abilities to a skill like this, but I can agree with the original thought of making alchemy (or even magic item creation) more evocative. In 3.5 I offered players the option of using exotic ingredients as surrogate XPs for item crafting. I don’t have any details handy, but I’d been thinking about somehow linking the CR of the monster with the amount of “craft” XP the wizard got for using it, but with the caveat that the player had to justify why this particular critter related to the item.
In PF:RPG, with its absence of XP cost for magic item creation, maybe exotic ingredients could be used to increase the caster level of the item. While a level 3 wizard could make a potion of invisibility, but it would only last 3 minutes. Mix in the wings of a sprite or some nonsense and make it caster level 5 with a five-minute duration. Or something like that.
Mind you, that’s all with an eye towards arcane crafting. I can’t quite imagine a cleric needing troll blood to create a potion of healing. Maybe they could get similar bonuses for performing the ritual in a place sacred to their god or somesuch.
And while I can’t get behind allowing non-spellcasters to create magic items just based on skill alone, I do like the idea of needing an appropriate crafting skill to actually make the item. It doesn’t have to be the wizard himself, but there should be somebody
Plentiful: DC- 5 Cost 1 CP Availability: 90%
1. Dandelion (Stems) made into Tea. Helps Prevent Disease.
+2 on Fo Saves vs Disease for a duration of 1 day after drinking tea.2. Extripia <The Marching Plant> (Seeds) Seeds Boiled and treated. Reduces Fatigue. Reduces level of fatigue with FO save at +2 DC 10. a natural 20 reduces fatigue 2 levels......
.
.
.Damn man.. where did you get this list? You actually play with this? I was thinking of something far less complex... but thanks a lot, it'll be of great help no doubt.
As opposed to Martial Arts, Druidism, Hermetic Magic, Religious Awakening, Shamanism, Witchcraft, etc?I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. (...)
Alchemy is a subject more than rich enough to be the subject of an entire game line. After all, the purification and transmutation of the soul, is hardly a theme that meshes well with Killing sentient creatures and takin' their stuff.Slime is right. While all these things (Alchemy, Martial Arts, Religion, Shamanism, etc...) are indeed based in real life concepts, they are all by far 100% accurate, they work as they should in a fantasy world. Their point here is not to mimic the same real-life concepts so people can understand about Spirituality/Martial Arts, etc... but to provide something we can have fun with, giving us freedom to experiment with things we wouldn't never do otherwise.
But you know, those things make sense enough assuming magic does exist as it does in D&D. Potion-makers did exist and still do (while not much respected anymore), people with knowledge of herbs and other ingredients would provide concoctions for people's needs just as we have our modern medicine now; and what is a medical pill but a more technological-advanced herbal concoction? Potions brewed with mystical/magical properties is not something of D&D, people would believe in decoctions like these, and, again,...
Shamanism, hermetic magic, druidism, these are exactly the things that tell me that, in no way should alchemy be included, because of the balls up that their representations in D'n'D represent. Hell, their isn't even any hermetism in d'n'd's take on hermetic traditions.
I would rather see 'the royal art' left out of Pathfinder altogether. The reason for this is, that alchemy is at its heart a spiritual science and an entire paradigm of magic. This historicially fascinating subject and its modern practices, especially where related to Jungian psychology will inevitiably be solf short by any D20 based game that deals with it.Depends: I would rather say that the old alchemist practiced chemistry with a broader understanding of natural laws as we have today. It was no more magical than astronomy.
no, alchemy is a mysticial tradition, there is a great deal of evidence for such Neithan.
Slime is right. While all these things (Alchemy, Martial Arts, Religion, Shamanism, etc...) are indeed based in real life concepts, they are all by far 100% accurate, they work as they should in a fantasy world. Their point here is not to mimic the same real-life concepts so people can understand about Spirituality/Martial Arts, etc... but to provide something we can have fun with, giving us freedom to experiment with things we wouldn't never do otherwise.But you know, those things make sense enough assuming magic does exist as it does in D&D. Potion-makers did exist and still do (while not much respected anymore), people with knowledge of herbs and other ingredients would provide concoctions for people's needs just as we have our modern medicine now; and what is a medical pill but a more technological-advanced herbal concoction? Potions brewed with mystical/magical properties is not something of D&D, people would believe in decoctions like these, and, again,...
Shamanism, hermetic magic, druidism, these are exactly the things that tell me that, in no way should alchemy be included, because of the balls up that their representations in D'n'D represent. Hell, their isn't even any hermetism in d'n'd's take on hermetic traditions.
Really Zombieneighbours, with all due respect, please, this is not the topic for this. I started this to discuss new ideas for Alchemy in PRPG (whether the devs will incorporate anything of the sort isn't the point, they probably won't.. it's a big change and they aren't willing to go that far, but I want opinions for at least house rules). Alchemy as we know in our classic medieval-fantasy style: Old man in a hut mixing exotic ingredients to brew some mystical concoction... or the wanderer warrior who gathers herbs and animal parts to brew himself some healing salves and strength-boosting potion to drink during a fight. We are not here to discuss the search for ascension, the purification of the soul, the quest for inner growth idealism behind the alchemists of our time. And more important, it took years (for the few who actually came to understand it) for them to come to these realizations, they actually started trying to turn led into gold and brew a potion that would give them eternal life. Only a selected few came to see the "material illusion" these things were and were able to achieve a much higher level of spiritualism and understanding of life.
And you know what, if D&D magic were real, many of these alchemists would have gone a completely diferent path, fascinated by the actual ability to turn led into gold, extend their lives and being able to annihilate the king's army with a wave of his hand.D&D's rules for magic (divine and arcane), martial arts, alchemy, etc etc... is not meant to mimic real world conceptions of these things, but it doesn't prevent you from using them in your game if you wish. If you want your potion-brewer wizard to start a search for his inner self, his ascension in the spiritual world and realization of the insignificance of these "material illusions" we live in; fine! The rules won't stop you. There is no rules for this and there shouldn't be, these are the "fluff" part of the game, you use these concepts as you like and understand.
If you want to discuss these more conceptual part of the game (or at least of Alchemy), please let us start another topic for this.
I asked for recipies for Banana-Pies and you are talking about the techniques the farmers use to plant bananas.
no hard feelings, ;-)
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I have been using "herbalism" in my games for a while. This was inspired by the Midnight RPG by Fantasy Flight Games.
If you happen to have access to the Midnight RPG 2nd edition campaign guide, take a look at all the wonderful things you can do.
I believe that the route you've been discussing - there's no reason why a non-spellcaster can have such talents.
Thinking outside the box, there's still a way to seperate the two. The spellcasters create magical potions that duplicate a "Spell".
The alchemist/herbalist makes a concoction that provides an "Alchemical Bonus" to something.
In other words, while the Potion Brewer is crafting a Potion of Bull Strength, the alchemist/herbalist can create a root that when chewed grants a +2 Alchemy Bonus to strength.
The groundwork for this is already layed even by Pathfinder. Look at the players guide for the adventure paths. There's a barbarians chew that gives and "alchemy" bonus to his rage ability.
Someone provided a great list above of the possible 'concoctions' that can be brewed and their effects.
Midnight RPG had a similar list - and it was an awesome system. One that can easily be imported or used in the PF system as an alternate system that can be added on. It's certainly not for everyone, but can add a level of cool flavor - especially in games like Savage Tide, Age of Worms and Rise of the Runelords - where a great deal of time is spent on the frontier of civilization - where access to such exotic weeks/roots/plants etc is abundant.
Robert
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Converting my Alchemist and Herbalist Classes to PRPG has been a stumbling block. Partly because they are based in non-OGL content (Eberron Artificer with modified creation feat progression) so I am glad to see that folks are also working this problem. I have Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalists v3.5 but I never really liked the flavor that much. Might make a good starting point for Pathfinder conversion though. I just really liked the idea of Infusions and made a couple of custom feats that let them use Artificer Infusions in the field by infusing vials of water and making instant potions on the fly. That is going to be hard to duplicate.
Converting my Alchemist and Herbalist Classes to PRPG has been a stumbling block. .........
.... I just really liked the idea of Infusions and made a couple of custom feats that let them use Artificer Infusions in the field by infusing vials of water and making instant potions on the fly. That is going to be hard to duplicate.
So you used Bastion's Press Alchemist and Herbalist classes or have made two of your own?
Like I mentioned in the start of this thread, wouldn't it be better Alchemy being a skill? Everyone could train in it, maybe even some feats (like Advanced Alchemy to make higher level potions... etc...).
Really, how much of alchemy is there to make a whole class based on it? Considering it's "weak-guy" style like wizards, so low BAB, low HP, it would have to balance out against the Wizard's spells by creating damn powerful potions by the lot... anyway.. I don't know the class.
...Really Zombieneighbours, with all due respect, please, this is not the topic for this...
Basicaly: What he said ! (all of it.)
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Like I mentioned in the start of this thread, wouldn't it be better Alchemy being a skill? Everyone could train in it, maybe even some feats (like Advanced Alchemy to make higher level potions... etc...).
Really, how much of alchemy is there to make a whole class based on it? Considering it's "weak-guy" style like wizards, so low BAB, low HP, it would have to balance out against the Wizard's spells by creating damn powerful potions by the lot... anyway.. I don't know the class.
Perhaps a combination of the Skill, Alchemy Feats and Brew potion could give a caster a more "Spell in a bottle" build option. The Brew potion feat has a few retrictions that could be "bypassed" by a skilled alchemist: Max 3rd spell level, targeted spells only and even possibly fishing into other spell lists (ex.: arcane vs divine) with the proper components and prerequisits.
Yes, that's what I had in mind, Skilll and feats. I had suggested in the beginning of the thread using the Craft Alchemy to replicate the brewing of potions wiz's coud do.. with some Taxidermy and Herbalism to lower the cost of buying material.
You think it's a good idea?
Dread has given a cosmic list of plants so that Alchemycal-Herbal potions differs from Magical ones; it adds more to the game but I'm afraid it could get more complicated with so much detail on individual plants; maybe just have a list of possible Alchemical potions and the and DCs to to find the specific necessary herbs to make it and to actually make it.
I thought it would be simpler just replicating the magic potions we have... I don't know.. I'd have to play a lot to test all this stuff...
I like some of the ideas floating around this thread about alchemy, especially the inclusion of potion brewing into it. I've hated the way alchemy was treated in 3E, myself. Being reduced to silly things like Sunrods and Tanglefoot Bags. Never struck me as very Alchemical.
Here's a few notations I've made for myself on a few alchemical items when I was working on alchemy (as a broad concept) for my own work, just to give an example of other things alchemy could be able to do:
"Alchemists/alchemy: Go back to the rules, stop thinking of the class. What does an Alchemist do? He creates things; potions, poisons, dusts, powders, misc. magical things. The Alchemist can create things that relate to his field because instead of using his own ability to manipulate Magic (which he doesn’t have), the Alchemist utilizes the inherent flow of Magic found in his ingredients. This takes considerably longer, but does suffice. The Alchemist is also a chemist, don’t forget."
((Note: Changed all references from my own material to mana to Magic for the purpose of this post))
"(Note: Candles and incenses are effectively the same for alchemical crafting purposes. When an item is listed here as a Candle or as Incense it is merely the most common form the item is created in.)
Candles:
Incenses:
Dusts:
Powders:
Oils:
Elixirs:
Morpheus Candle: This candle will, when burned, act as a Sleep spell. The candle must burn for at least 10 minutes before its smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 3 rounds in the area of effect before becoming affected. After the 3rd round, every creature within the candle’s effects must make the Will save against its effects every round they remain in the smoke.
A single Morpheus Candle can fill a 25x25 ft. area with potent smoke.
Cayenne Candle: This candle will, when burned, cause all creatures within its area of effect to suffer an agonizing rash that feels like their skin is on fire. The candle must burn for at least 10 minutes before the smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 2 rounds in the area of effect before becoming affected. All creatures within the candle’s smoke suffer 1d4 subdual damage every round after the 2nd that they remain in the smoke.
Incense of Inspiration: This incense, when burned, will cause anyone within its area of effect to fall into a meditative stupor. While in this stupor, the affected creature’s mind will expand and contemplate any single problem or question, gaining a +10 to any rolls pertaining to determining an answer to said problem or question. The incense must burn for at least 5 minutes before the smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 4 rounds in the area of effect before succumbing to it’s effects. All creatures within the area of effect are allowed a Will check (DC 18) to resist the stupor.
Dust of Waking Dreams: This dust, the result of intensive Pell alchemical work, is illegal to possess in most Lawful kingdoms that are aware of it. A single pinch of Dust of Waking Dreams, in inhaled, will [we’re basically talking PCP or Cocaine here, fill it in]."
(And yes, that last one is a bit risque, but there is a large sub-culture of illegal substances in my campaign setting, Dust of Waking Dreams being a rather mild offering)
But the idea is, I agree, alchemy should be much more robust a sub-system than it is. And it shouldn't require spellcasting. Knowledge: Arcane and/or Spellcraft (I'd lean toward both, personally) I would expect, but not the ability to cast spells. If you can cast spells, you really have a much weaker incentive to go the alchemical route.