Now this isn't soo much about 4e as the title says.
Yes I have figured out what they are doing with dungeons and dragons 4th edition.
After seeing the posts here. It just came to me. A lot of people on that thread is saying that the rules are so simple, maybe too simple. So once 4e keels over, like it is supposed to, ADnD 4ed will be released.
DnD4 is only designed to hook new players, if it catches on, then they would stay with it. If it doesn't, then they will release ADnD4, which will be based off DnD4, but much more like the 3.5e we all know and love.
Thats it, 4e is just a hook to get all of us to buy it, as to test it, and get the initial 35-70+ dollars out of us and bam! We are all played for suckers.
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Wait, let me get this straight, you're saying that they're purposefully alienating many of their customers by being borderline insulting and limiting development through forcing 3rd party developers to choose between 3E and 4e(as the GSL restricts the same content being available for both) in order to push customers to some 3E/4e hybrid game system later on down the road to be more plausible than the idea that they're just making a lot of bad mistakes and piss poor business decisions?
I think that WOTC put all of their eggs in one basket with the develoment of 4th edition, meaning I don't think they have the alterior motive described by the original poster. I do believe that they had multiple goals/reasons for creating it. The three most prominent reasons being...
1. A push to a more computerized version, which if successful, there will be more to come.
2. 3.5 was believed to have outserved WOTC financial expecations.
3. Hopes that WOTC could gain a stronger (than they already have) foothold on the overall industry.
I do believe that if 4th edition sales were to plummet sometime after the initial release (far earlier than expected) that eventually the next version would be a back to the basics marketing campaign and then 3.5 could serve as the base model of development. I do not believe that the current designers nor the managing personnel behind them are intenionally doing that however. This would have to be a call made by the next group of WOTC staffers that have yet to come. I think the only intentional thing they have done is try and put an end to 3.5 and open up the market for 4th edition, again going back to the basic reasons above.
Just my thoughts, take it for whatever they are worth. If they aren't worth anything than disregard my comments.
I would be curious as to why your thinking this though based off of the thread you linked or any other reasons/sources. It would be an interesting conversation. Please elaborate if you wish to.
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The reason for 4E is simple really. WotC need to make more money. Making money isn't a bad thing but I find the speed of which they are replacing 3E a non surprise.
Anyone here ever play Magic the gathering? The type two format of tourney play forces all players to replace all thier cards on a continuing basis because you could onlu use the most recent released sets.
The same principle has been done here. Also I bet to "keep a profit" they will need to revamp the game system for DnD every so often ~Every 4 Years~ I bet.
Don't buy 4th edition unless your unhappy with what you have. I don't see a need to upgrade this time around. I supported the 2nd to 3rd edition because it really cleaned up alot (rules, learning curve, and overall format)
I don't see that with 3rd to 4th. They are trying to do the same thing here but I don't see the "need" as much.
Ah, it is much simplier then all that. It is all about getting me 3.5 products at cheap prices as everyone else sells off their materials. Thank you WotC!
Wait, let me get this straight, you're saying that they're purposefully alienating many of their customers by being borderline insulting and limiting development through forcing 3rd party developers to choose between 3E and 4e(as the GSL restricts the same content being available for both) in order to push customers to some 3E/4e hybrid game system later on down the road to be more plausible than the idea that they're just making a lot of bad mistakes and piss poor business decisions?
D&D's biggest competitor, and the one that has cut into their profit margins the most, has been World Of Warcraft. Along with Anarchy Online, LOTR Online, and a host of other online, video game RPGs. Remember WotC tried to get in on this phenom with D&D Online, but that just didn't fly. So they have seen the diehard fans stick it out, but can't seem to attract many new gamers.
Oh what to do...Wait! Maybe if we rebuild the D&D game to make it something like an online RPG, with some online content, but still uses books, paper, and a pencil! We could even charge a monthly fee for access to the online content!! That would turn things around for this old classic, right?
Now, do I agree that this is WotC's motivation for 4E? Yes.
Do I think it is a smart business move? No.
Then again, we all maybe wrong. I remember being LIVID over the release of 3E, given all the money I spent on 2E books. But, I read the PH, then the DMG, and wow, this is pretty cool. So, maybe history will repeat itself.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
DogBone
P.S. Anyone interested in buying some old 2E D&D material? Still got a couple storage boxes full of stuff I haven't touched in near a decade. Maybe some money in it for me :~)
ADnD 4E is just a rulebook or two away. I figure the online mags will feature rules variations of increasing complexity that the masses will try, they'll get feedback, and it will be released later.
People will make 4E grittier, the variants will be published. People will write skill variants, they will be published. Everyone has seen that people like to try rules variations and I don't think this escapes the designers.
So I've got to agree with Mr. Ineptus.
At the same time I think we're going to see them release the streamlined version of 4E as a MMORPG. Hopefully they'll cooperate with a game publishing company that knows what they're doing. Someone who is ready to go toe to toe with Blizzard.
If it was me I would be wooing Valve. They could use a good game. Okay maybe that's dumb - they've messed some stuff up lately, but they've gone the ability I think.
... they'll get feedback...
HA! HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, you guys just keep coming with this stuff; it's priceless. Thinking that WotC will actually listen to what consumers say... another good one! 'Cause that's happened so far. Keep it up, I need the laughs. :D
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Wait, let me get this straight, you're saying that they're purposefully alienating many of their customers by being borderline insulting and limiting development through forcing 3rd party developers to choose between 3E and 4e(as the GSL restricts the same content being available for both) in order to push customers to some 3E/4e hybrid game system later on down the road to be more plausible than the idea that they're just making a lot of bad mistakes and piss poor business decisions?D&D's biggest competitor, and the one that has cut into their profit margins the most, has been World Of Warcraft. Along with Anarchy Online, LOTR Online, and a host of other online, video game RPGs. Remember WotC tried to get in on this phenom with D&D Online, but that just didn't fly. So they have seen the diehard fans stick it out, but can't seem to attract many new gamers.
Oh what to do...Wait! Maybe if we rebuild the D&D game to make it something like an online RPG, with some online content, but still uses books, paper, and a pencil! We could even charge a monthly fee for access to the online content!! That would turn things around for this old classic, right?
Now, do I agree that this is WotC's motivation for 4E? Yes.
Do I think it is a smart business move? No.Then again, we all maybe wrong. I remember being LIVID over the release of 3E, given all the money I spent on 2E books. But, I read the PH, then the DMG, and wow, this is pretty cool. So, maybe history will repeat itself.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
DogBone
P.S. Anyone interested in buying some old 2E D&D material? Still got a couple storage boxes full of stuff I haven't touched in near a decade. Maybe some money in it for me :~)
I don't deny that they're trying to make money by making 4e into a WoW clone, but if I understood the original poster correctly, he was saying that they simply made it like that to get people annoyed with that direction, so that they could make a version that's half-way in between and generate sales from that hybrid. Which is what I find less plausible.
In many ways, this is sounding like the New Coke that came out so many years ago. The truth about it is that people didn't dislike it because of the taste, because Coca-Cola ran blind taste-tests before releasing it and the majority of the people liked the new thing better. The reason so many people disliked it so much was because "Coke" had become a national icon, to the point that it was almost synonymous with "America"; so when the New Coke was unveiled, and the way it was done, was like a slap in the face to most everyone who said they liked Coca-Cola. Point is, when people didn't know the names of what they were drinking, they liked the new thing. When they saw the names, they stuck with the old.
Now, I'll state once again for the record, I never played D&D before the 3e rules. I dunno what it was like, and I don't have that nostalgia. I was also a beta tester for WoW. That stated, from what I've read and what I've heard, I don't have any interest in 4e. I also did not like WoW for many of the same reasons.
Again, I am not angry with 4e. In a way, it was almost time, you can only make so many accessories and suppliments before things start getting in the realm of absurdity. However, many of the changes they are making do not appeal to my taste. 4e may end up taking off and be the best selling RPG of all time, but in likelyhood, I will not be one of those buyers.
At the same time I think we're going to see them release the streamlined version of 4E as a MMORPG. Hopefully they'll cooperate with a game publishing company that knows what they're doing. Someone who is ready to go toe to toe with Blizzard.If it was me I would be wooing Valve. They could use a good game. Okay maybe that's dumb - they've messed some stuff up lately, but they've gone the ability I think.
Whoever it is, and your suggestion sounds like it would be a smart move, is going to have to turn in a phenomenal performance, I think. I've been thinking that WoW II vs. whatever Bethesda cooks up is going to finally be the showdown that all the previous MMOs were hoping to bring to Blizzard. I think that Hasbro will blanch at the resources necessary to play RC in the cola wars, and the end result will be a DDO hovering in the same range as the rest of the pack.
This is all completely idle speculation, of course, and my history at prediction is, uh, mixed.
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Anyone interested in buying some old 2E D&D material? Still got a couple storage boxes full of stuff I haven't touched in near a decade. Maybe some money in it for me :~)
Sure, I have been playing 2e up until October of last year, found out that 3.x actually existed, then get the announcement of 4e. 4e isn't my groups cup of tea, but I am getting interested in Pathfinder products. We will probably stay with 2e since it has worked for us for over 20+ years now.
If only they would make a game as solid as WOW with D&D concepts...that would be awesome. I don't see the reverse<making a pen and paper game using WOW concepts> as all that awesome though.
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1. A push to a more computerized version, which if successful, there will be more to come.
2. 3.5 was believed to have outserved WOTC financial expecations.
3. Hopes that WOTC could gain a stronger (than they already have) foothold on the overall industry.
I agree with these - especially No. 2.
I've have a chance to glance over the rules. I certainly can't attest to having made a study of them, but from I've seen, I'm not impressed. I especially dislike the new healing/recovery rules. Encumbrance also makes me shiver, as everyone becomes Charles Atlas.
I'm not a fan of disposing of spells and rolling them into powers.
But that said, I'm not saying they bite . . . just that I've yet to see a reason to abandon 3.5 for the new rules. Nothing in 4e demands my grab.
I don't deny that they're trying to make money by making 4e into a WoW clone, but if I understood the original poster correctly, he was saying that they simply made it like that to get people annoyed with that direction,...
Alright. I see what you mean. However, the whole "new Coke was released just to give Coke Classic a boost" theory is just that: a theory. Coke inc. was losing market share at the time and had slipped to #2 behind Pepsi. This they weren't used to. So they panicked and re-formulated Coke to taste more like Pepsi. That is easily proven from company documents.
So it is very much like how I described; re-design the game to be more like what the mass market currently likes. However, I agree with you; I don't think WotC is betting the farm on 4E just to piss everyone off and set up 5E. It's too much of a gamble.
And let's be honest, I'm sure a lot of pressure is coming down on them from Hasbro Inc. If they were still a privately owned company, like during the Peter Atkinson days, we probably wouldn't see all this. They'd be a niche company, filling the niche's needs. Not pushing D&D to be some globaly-franchised money machine.
Good old corporate greed, ya gotta love it.
DogBone
P.S. I prefer Coke Classic; always have, always will. So, for me, it was a "taste" thing.
Sure, I have been playing 2e up until October of last year, found out that 3.x actually existed, then get the announcement of 4e. 4e isn't my groups cup of tea, but I am getting interested in Pathfinder products. We will probably stay with 2e since it has worked for us for over 20+ years now.
Jonathon_Shade and Snorter,
I will take a look at what I have (as I said, I haven't looked at these books and boxed sets in a long time). However Snorter, I'm not sure how cost-effective this will be. I live in Charlotte, NC, and if I read your e-mail address correctly, it might cost a lot to ship to the U.K. I may have to ask more than you're willing to pay.
It may be a bit too early in the process to say, but I wanted to be honest up-front about this. Let me compile a list and we can all take it from there.
DogBone
P.S. Anyone interested in buying some old 2E D&D material? Still got a couple storage boxes full of stuff I haven't touched in near a decade. Maybe some money in it for me :~)
I actually might be. Money's tight (isn't it for everybody) but if you got some ebay auctions or want to email me a list of stuff you're selling i'd look to buy a thing or two from you.
(email: lojakz@yahoo.com) (I'm actually going to be running a lot of Castles and Crusades in the near future, so am looking to fill out some stuff in my collection of older dnd stuff.)
Alright. I see what you mean. However, the whole "new Coke was released just to give Coke Classic a boost" theory is just that: a theory. Coke inc. was losing market share at the time and had slipped to #2 behind Pepsi. This they weren't used to. So they panicked and re-formulated Coke to taste more like Pepsi. That is easily proven from company documents.
I don't think very much of any one seriously believes that New Coke was just done to boost sales of Coke Classic. That'd require an understanding of the American Psyche that was so deep and so spot on that it defies serous belief.
New Coke was a real product, they wanted it to do well. They basically went with the 'build a better mouse trap' theory. They reformulated the product to make it sweeter and smoother, which was more like Pepsi its true but they were not trying to be Pepsi, they wanted to make a better product then what Pepsi had. Reality is they did - they performed many thousands of blind taste tests and consistently consumers said they liked New Coke better then Old Coke and better yet they liked it more then Pepsi. The company had every reason to feel they had a winner on their hands - bottom line is it was the best product of the three.
But this was never about quality of the product, thats were they made their mistake, they thought quality mattered - it didn't.
Coca-Cola was not a soft drink beverage - it was an American Icon, it was patriotism in a bottle. It represented all that was good about America, especially all that was good about your fathers America, it hearkened to a glorious past based on American values that seemed all to absent from the modern world.
When New Coke was released millions upon millions of Americans decided that they hated it with a burning passion before they had ever even tried it.
Quickly enough Coca-Cola caved and of course it was the best thing that had happened to them in 20 years. Sales of Coke Classic went through the roof. Completely reversed the trend where they had been loosing market share to Pepsi.
P.S. I prefer Coke Classic; always have, always will. So, for me, it was a "taste" thing.
Well taste is a subjective thing so its impossible to prove anything but chances are your speaking with your heart and not your tongue here.
Bottom line is New Coke is the better product.
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At the same time I think we're going to see them release the streamlined version of 4E as a MMORPG. Hopefully they'll cooperate with a game publishing company that knows what they're doing. Someone who is ready to go toe to toe with Blizzard.If it was me I would be wooing Valve. They could use a good game. Okay maybe that's dumb - they've messed some stuff up lately, but they've gone the ability I think.
Whoever it is, and your suggestion sounds like it would be a smart move, is going to have to turn in a phenomenal performance, I think. I've been thinking that WoW II vs. whatever Bethesda cooks up is going to finally be the showdown that all the previous MMOs were hoping to bring to Blizzard. I think that Hasbro will blanch at the resources necessary to play RC in the cola wars, and the end result will be a DDO hovering in the same range as the rest of the pack.
This is all completely idle speculation, of course, and my history at prediction is, uh, mixed.
A bit of a threadjack, but Bioware is also producing an MMORPG, personally I find their track record to be far better than Blizzard's. I'm looking forward to seeing an MMORPG bring story back into the genre (something that was lost after EQ:Planes of Power)
... they'll get feedback...
HA! HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, you guys just keep coming with this stuff; it's priceless. Thinking that WotC will actually listen to what consumers say... another good one! 'Cause that's happened so far. Keep it up, I need the laughs. :D
Wow, I never expected that kind of insulting mockery from you Saern. I have lots of gripes with WotC and have come down against them time and time again. The second I step out of line with those who want to paint the whole company with one big black brush you step up and cut me down.
Perhaps what you mean is they didn't listen to what YOU want and your sense of entitlement is shaken.
Really classy. This is for you:
For what it's worth:
I don't believe 1985 was all about patriotism and icons. The other side to the whole New Coke, Classic Coke and Pepsi story is the nature of taste tests. Pepsi had been running the Pepsi Challenge taste tests at public venues all over the world just before New Coke was introduced. But taste tests revealed something interesting: the sweeter the soda, the better it did in blind taste tests - when using the one or two ounce samples. When consumers were given a choice of twelve ounce samples - drinking the whole drink - the reverse happened: the sweeter the drink, the less it appealed to people. Thus, Classic Coke generally outsells Pepsi when actually purchased in cans and bottles.
One thing is fairly certain, none of us (outside of playtesters) has had a chance to really enjoy a full twelve ounces of 4E yet (aka a campaign). *That's* when we'll know if it's any good or not.
One thing is fairly certain, none of us (outside of playtesters) has had a chance to really enjoy a full twelve ounces of 4E yet (aka a campaign). *That's* when we'll know if it's any good or not.
Wise words.
And may I add that I want to see what they put out in the next year also.
Well taste is a subjective thing so its impossible to prove anything but chances are your speaking with your heart and not your tongue here.
Bottom line is New Coke is the better product.
Or as jwrede suggested, their methodology was flawed.
It always cracks me up when people try to tell others that what they think they enjoy more is actually wrong. To this I just think a quote from a Conan book is appropriate it.
"I have known gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by Nemedian skeptics, or Crom’s realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains of and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer’s Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." – Conan of Cimmeria
If the liking of Coke Classic more than New Coke or Pepsi is an illusion, well then the illusion is real to me. So what does it matter if it is illusion.
... they'll get feedback...HA! HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, you guys just keep coming with this stuff; it's priceless. Thinking that WotC will actually listen to what consumers say... another good one! 'Cause that's happened so far. Keep it up, I need the laughs. :D
Wow, I never expected that kind of insulting mockery from you Saern. I have lots of gripes with WotC and have come down against them time and time again. The second I step out of line with those who want to paint the whole company with one big black brush you step up and cut me down.
Perhaps what you mean is they didn't listen to what YOU want and your sense of entitlement is shaken.
Really classy. This is for you:** spoiler omitted **
And this is the third time I've made a comment just like this on the boards in recent weeks, but the first time I've gotten such backlash. Maybe my skills at irony are slipping.
I wasn't gunning at you, so please don't gun at me. I was gunning at WotC and the way they have handled the rollover; i.e., shoving it down people's throats, along with whatever spin they could come up with. The way they've alienated and jerked their consumers around without an apparent second thought, which becomes even worse when viewed in light of the openness and responsiveness Paizo has shown around the same events.
All cynicism aside, if you want my true opinion on this whole 4e thing, I don't really blame WotC much at all; or rather, I don't blame the D&D branch of WotC. I blame the corporate execs above them and in daddy corp, Hasbro. They're used to being able to shove crap down the throats of spazzed out twerps and getting their way and their profit margins. They don't understand and don't care to understand that D&D isn't like that. They don't care that D&D was still making them money; it just wasn't making them as much money as they'd like. So the order comes down the chain to do A, B, and C, and the gamers in charge of D&D within the WotC structure have no say in the matter unless they want to lose their jobs. Meanwhile, Hasbro and upper WotC can't understand why the consumer base for D&D isn't going "AWEZUM SUPERNESS!!!!" like they do for every other waste of money they churn out.
But WotC is responsible for the big middle finger they've effectively given all of us in the way they've handled this transitional period. THAT was the point of my post, not to attack fellow posters on Paizo.
Saern,
Apparently WotC is not giving the finger to "all of us" because there are plenty of representatives even on Paizo's own boards who are happy with what they are doing. Apparently they are listening to someone because the changes they are making resonate with appeals that a lot of players have made (most of them aren't posting here it seems, which may be why your jokes are well received).
And blaming everything on suit wearing corporate pinheads is getting tiring, isn't it? You do live in America, right? The guys designing the game are gamers, Hasbro is a corporation. There are far worse corporate activities going in the world to get upset about. You have Paizo yet you still need to snipe at WotC?
Sure, they aren't all lifelong D&D players, but they do understand that it is about having fun. It looks like fun.
Meanwhile, Hasbro and upper WotC can't understand why the consumer base for D&D isn't going "AWEZUM SUPERNESS!!!!" like they do for every other waste of money they churn out.
Plenty of people ARE going "AWEZUM SUPERNESS" from what I'm reading elsewhere. Furthermore, I've read in a bunch of places where they have admitted that 4E isn't for everyone so I think they DO understand. It's nice that they left the OGL behind. Was 3.5 with an OGL a waste of your money? Are you pissed off about the moving space left for Paizo?
And telling me that your post should be well taken because it is ironic is absurd. Irony doesn't make it any less insulting.
Look dude, I don't give a rats ass if you hate WotC. I don't care if you call me a f@+$-tard, either. Just don't stick your tongue in my mouth and take the s+@+ I say for what it is and no more. My cause here, which is coming to a close, is that all posts like that are doing is generating bad feelings. When I read your reply I actually started to understand how CWM feels.
That made me feel so dirty, so I had to say something.
I gotta admit I've worn the "4E is a New Coke strategy" tin-foil hat. In many ways it seemed to explain all the (in my eyes, at any rate) disagreeable changes being made to the game. But since then I've come to my senses and realised 4E is a genuine attempt at a new edition of D&D. It just isn't for me, and that is why I'm throwing my weight and money behind Pathfinder.
I can see where Saern is coming from: I still have a lot of venom in regards to the fluff and rule changes in 4E, and make no mistake I have not forgiven WotC for their axing of the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon. But y'know what? I'm tired of being angry. I'm tired of pointing the finger at Hasbro and using various four-letter words to describe their approach to the new edition of D&D (which I've done A LOT of elsewhere).
But most of all I'm tired of arguing with the good people who have seen differently to me and straddled up for 4E. It's the game for them and I now look forward to hearing what they have to say about this strange new world their venturing into.
I'm sorry if this came out a little long-winded and preachy, but I genuinely believe the time has come to bury the hatchet over this whole thing. The D&D (and by extension, the Pathfinder) community doesn't need any more splintering.
I spewed my venom a few times, too. But to tell the truth the magazine cancellation bothered me most of all and that's when I gunned hard. When Paizo announced Pathfinder, though, my Wizards hate faded fast.
I've never seen the announcement of 4E as a threat to my gaming. And then Paizo comes out with PFRPG....
What's there to be angry about anymore? And especially what's the point of running what's out there through your filters to make it look as bad as possible? That's all.
Hate WotC, don't hate them. Play 4E, don't play 4E. I like all of you. Everything's cool.
Send us a list!
robert dot feather at blueyonder dot co dot uk
:)
OK, as promised, I have compiled a list of all the 2E D&D books I have. It’s quite a list. A lot of the books are for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (I really love that setting). Hopefully that won’t be a deterrent. I will mark those items with an asterisk. Here’s what I have:
*Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (boxed set)
*Ruins of Zhentil Keep (boxed set)
*Spellbound (boxed set)
*Savage Frontier (boxed set, but with no box. Sorry)
*Code of the Harpers
*Drow of the Underdark
*Draconomicon
Complete Guide to Necromancers
Creative Campaigning
Monster Mythology
The Arms and Equipment Guide
Dungeon Builder’s Guidebook
*The Forgotten Realms Atlas (a bit worn, but still good)
*Cloak and Dagger
*Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical
Against the Giants Silver Anniversary Edition
White Plume Mountain Silver Anniversary Edition
Return to Keep on the Borderlands Silver Anniversary Edition
2E Player’s Handbook
2E Dungeon Master’s Guide
2E Monstrous Manual
*Netheril: Empire of Magic (boxed set)
*Elves of Evermeet
*The Seven Sisters
*Giantcraft
The Sea Devils (and awesome book, will be hard to part with)
The Illithiad
*Pages from the Mages (Forgotten Realms, but contents can be adapted for any setting)
*Prayers of the Faithful (Forgotten Realms, but contents can be adapted for any setting)
Reverse Dungeon
*Heroes’ Lorebook
*Villains’ Lorebook
*Faiths and Avatars
*Powers and Pantheons
*Demihuman Deities
The Following books I will be loath to part with. Though I haven’t read them in a while, they are a treasure trove of ideas to place in a game:
Encyclopedia Magica, Volumes I – IV
Wizard’s Spell Compendium, Volumes I – IV
Priest’s Spell Compendium, Volumes I – III
*Volo’s Guide to The North, Cormyr, and The Sword Coast
Quite a list, don’t you think? Let me know what you guys are interested in and we can take things from there.
DogBone
Send us a list!
robert dot feather at blueyonder dot co dot uk
:)
OK, as promised, I have compiled a list of all the 2E D&D books I have. It’s quite a list. A lot of the books are for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (I really love that setting). Hopefully that won’t be a deterrent. I will mark those items with an asterisk. Here’s what I have:
*Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (boxed set)
*Ruins of Zhentil Keep (boxed set)
*Spellbound (boxed set)
*Savage Frontier (boxed set, but with no box. Sorry)
*Code of the Harpers
*Drow of the Underdark
*Draconomicon
Complete Guide to Necromancers
Creative Campaigning
Monster Mythology
The Arms and Equipment Guide
Dungeon Builder’s Guidebook
*The Forgotten Realms Atlas (a bit worn, but still good)
*Cloak and Dagger
*Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical
Against the Giants Silver Anniversary Edition
White Plume Mountain Silver Anniversary Edition
Return to Keep on the Borderlands Silver Anniversary Edition
2E Player’s Handbook
2E Dungeon Master’s Guide
2E Monstrous Manual
*Netheril: Empire of Magic (boxed set)
*Elves of Evermeet
*The Seven Sisters
*Giantcraft
The Sea Devils (and awesome book, will be hard to part with)
The Illithiad
*Pages from the Mages (Forgotten Realms, but contents can be adapted for any setting)
*Prayers of the Faithful (Forgotten Realms, but contents can be adapted for any setting)
Reverse Dungeon
*Heroes’ Lorebook
*Villains’ Lorebook
*Faiths and Avatars
*Powers and Pantheons
*Demihuman DeitiesThe Following books I will be loath to part with. Though I haven’t read them in a while, they are a treasure trove of ideas to place in a game:
Encyclopedia Magica, Volumes I – IV
Wizard’s Spell Compendium, Volumes I – IV
Priest’s Spell Compendium, Volumes I – III
*Volo’s Guide to The North, Cormyr, and The Sword CoastQuite a list, don’t you think? Let me know what you guys are interested in and we can take things from there.
DogBone
Wow, that's a lot to digest (certainly i know folks who've larger collections, but that's a lot to unload at any one time). Just off the top of my head I can say that I'm interested in the following:
*Faiths and Avatars
*Demihuman Deities
The Illithiad
*Pages from the Mages
*Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical
Against the Giants Silver Anniversary Edition
White Plume Mountain Silver Anniversary Edition
Return to Keep on the Borderlands Silver Anniversary Edition
*Drow of the Underdark
*Draconomicon
I'll be likely unable to pick up all of them, but it'll definitely be worth picking up some from you.
Please email me at lojakz@yahoo.com
Glad we're all cool. And I don't hate WotC, but I do blame them for the terrible management during this period of change. It has nothing to do with the content of 4e, and everything to do with how it's presented. A baker might have the best cake in the world, but if he tries to shove it down my throat and choke me with it, all with a grin on his face, I don't want any. That's how I feel WotC has treated its consumers. My commentary was just snarkiness to that effect, not a personal attack against you or anyone else here on Paizo.
Just one more thing, and this isn't directed at you or anyone else, but rather at the expression I hear tossed around so much; I don't think there's anything wrong with continuing to blame corporate suits when corporate suits are to blame. "They're a corporation, they want to make money" just seems to assume that whatever practices WotC/Hasbro employs to achieve those ends are fine and dandy. Being a corporation, and thus out to make money, doesn't give them the freedom to abuse their customer base. This reeks of a problem plaguing corporate culture around the world today: the company is too bloated and out of contact with itself the people who are buying from them. The guys at the top don't know what D&D is, don't know who plays it, and don't care. It's not a conspiracy or maliciousness, just ignorance and close-mindedness. They don't even know the identity of the product; it's just bottom line and "Why isn't higher? Mike, make it higher." Then Mike the Market Analyst runs off and does a "study" and makes his recommendations and the orders get passed down the corporate chain and can't be questioned because Mike has statistics! Plus, Mike went to school and has a degree, and everyone like Mike and everyone around Mike all went to school and have degrees, so they know what they're talking about without fail. Plus, Mike's a great guy who plays golf on weekends, we can trust him.
Meanwhile, the actual game designers are saddled with ignorant orders from the top they can't do anything about unless they want to be replaced. So no, I don't hate WotC or Hasbro, I'm just sick of the way they and a slew of other corporations conduct themselves.
[/rant]
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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lojakz, you want to make sure you grab all three books if you don't have the third. The 2e deity books for the Realms are incredible.
Kruelaid, you're such a corporate tool [jk]
Dogbone, never ever give up those Volo's guides. They may not be everyone's style, but those and Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue are some of the best fluff supliments ever made.
And Hasbro/WotC are a corporation, they are out to make money. If they weren't then they'd still be making RoboRally and Dreamblade :P Paizo's a company too. They want to make money to keep attracting talent (that and I saw a $7900 Cylon Centurian that I'm sure Vic wants for his theatre) Any organization is going to do what they think will result in the best profit. Even Enron didn't start as a money losing operation. Though if WotC hires Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder to handle their books, then we'll worry :P
A bit of a threadjack, but Bioware is also producing an MMORPG, personally I find their track record to be far better than Blizzard's. I'm looking forward to seeing an MMORPG bring story back into the genre (something that was lost after EQ:Planes of Power)
If it is *really* Star Wars: KOTOR Online ( rumoured and dis-rumoured, so far... ), I´ll probably vanish from the world for several years. ^^
I guess a new D&D MMO isn´t too far off, either... the rules certainly were made to be as compatible as possible.
Now this isn't soo much about 4e as the title says.
Yes I have figured out what they are doing with dungeons and dragons 4th edition.
After seeing the posts here. It just came to me. A lot of people on that thread is saying that the rules are so simple, maybe too simple. So once 4e keels over, like it is supposed to, ADnD 4ed will be released.
DnD4 is only designed to hook new players, if it catches on, then they would stay with it. If it doesn't, then they will release ADnD4, which will be based off DnD4, but much more like the 3.5e we all know and love.
Thats it, 4e is just a hook to get all of us to buy it, as to test it, and get the initial 35-70+ dollars out of us and bam! We are all played for suckers.
Well I have played it and tested it, playing Keep on the Shadowfell, and I must say, it's some of the most fun I have ever had playing D&D!
lojakz, you want to make sure you grab all three books if you don't have the third. The 2e deity books for the Realms are incredible.
That's for the heads up Matthew, I actually have Powers and Pantheons (hence why i'm interested in the other two). But if Dogbone can, he should probably sell them as a set, as it seems Powers and Pantheons seems the easiest to get.
Or as jwrede suggested, their methodology was flawed.Well taste is a subjective thing so its impossible to prove anything but chances are your speaking with your heart and not your tongue here.
Bottom line is New Coke is the better product.
Then why was Pepsi gaining market share?
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I think advanced options are a possibility, but I do not think that they would flesh out a new line around this for it would be 3rd tier. I do believe that they will go to 5th Edition and subsequent editions faster than ever before. Their business model is "brevity" for just about anything they plan to do in print. Robust support will be online and then they will charge you for it.
The part that get's my goat is the speed that they could remove content on the internet and replace it with fanfare for new editions. I believe that they do not want too much printed material in the future they see ahead, because they will evolve the game more readily as today's computer games use "patches".
4th Edition is a revolution in the hobby, maybe not your hobby.
Cheers,
Zuxius