Can we stop saying 4e hater?
That's a perjorative that serves no purpose beyond specific people -- it certainly doesn't sway people to come around to your way of thinking.
Yes, some do hate 4e (I certainly don't, despite the number of times the label has been pinned on me). But when you provoke people with language like this, you're giving up any moral high ground you might have thought you had.
To be fair, there's been plenty of deliberate rudeness and gratuitous provocation going on here (on both sides), but this one has become a pet peeve of mine. It unfairly characterizes and dismisses any and all that don't like 4e.
Hmm. Is there anyway to spell grognard with a 3?
(I prefer pro-4E and anti-4E when I am forced to categorize positions, myself. I think it is human nature to band together into tribes, and no matter what we call the those who refuse to let DnD go silently into 4E, I suspect it will come to possess negative connotations given time. More than DudeMonkey implies, I'd chalk this up to the natural inclination in us all.)
Cheers! :)
Hmm. Is there anyway to spell grognard with a 3?
(I prefer pro-4E and anti-4E when I am forced to categorize positions, myself. I think it is human nature to band together into tribes, and no matter what we call the those who refuse to let DnD go silently into 4E, I suspect it will come to possess negative connotations given time. More than DudeMonkey implies, I'd chalk this up to the natural inclination in us all.)
Cheers! :)
How about grogn3rd? then you kind of get "nerd" for free... just a thought.
How about grogn3rd? then you kind of get "nerd" for free... just a thought.
Lmao! That's perfect!
Can we stop saying 4e hater?
That's a perjorative that serves no purpose beyond specific people -- it certainly doesn't sway people to come around to your way of thinking.
Yes, some do hate 4e (I certainly don't, despite the number of times the label has been pinned on me). But when you provoke people with language like this, you're giving up any moral high ground you might have thought you had.
To be fair, there's been plenty of deliberate rudeness and gratuitous provocation going on here (on both sides), but this one has become a pet peeve of mine. It unfairly characterizes and dismisses any and all that don't like 4e.
I agree with you completely.
With that said, there are "trolls" that come to these forums that have admittedly stated they hate 4E even after trying it and post. My question is, if people hate 4E so much (lookin at you Razz), why even come to discuss it on the 4E forums...??
I have no problem with someone who doesn't like 4E coming here, just as long as they act respectful.
It's the internet, my friend. It's always been this way, it's always going to be this way.
You might as well get upset with a hurricane for discourteous behavior towards Florida residents.
/looking forward to 4e
I'll remind you to reread the following carefully.
We really pride ourselves on our web community here on paizo.com. Prior to the 4th Edition announcement by WotC, we were constantly praised for the maturity of our web community and the conversations that we have here. But lately, in this forum in particular, things have devolved.
We expect our users to behave appropriately and intelligently. I don't think that I need to go into huge detail about what inappropriate behavior is, but I can assure you it isn't creating avatars with "vomit" in the title and then proceeding to vomit all over various threads, or any other behavior that is intentionally offensive or aimed at threadjacking or attacking folks.
We don't all have to agree about everything. Continuing lively debate is great. But some of the posts I have seen lately are the online equivalent of holding your breath until you turn blue and then throwing a tantrum. And that isn't what we expect from the paizo.com community. We understand people are emotional about what is happening to our game, but that isn't an excuse to act immature.
I am hoping that you guys can continue to police yourselves as you have in the past. If we can return these messageboards to the place they were before all this nonsense, then I will be happy. But if things don't get better fast, then I will have to get together with Gary, Vic, Erik, Josh, and Jeff and come up with a plan to put moderators in place. And that is something I don't want to do, but I will if I have to.
So continue to have fun. Continue to discuss the things we love in life. But please keep the messageboards civil. 'Nuff said.
-Lisa
Emphasis mine.
Enough with the "4E hater" label.
(I prefer pro-4E and anti-4E when I am forced to categorize positions,
I'm not pro- or anti-4E. Being either means that you care one way or the other about 4E. I don't. I am pro-Pathfinder nothing more, nothing less. Whatever happens to Wizards and 4E, I don't care. I hope that everyone retains their jobs there and those that play the game enjoy it. Beyond that, 4E does not affect me one way or the other.
My question is, if people hate 4E so much, why even come to discuss it on the 4E forums...??Nerd culture thrives on objectivity. You are right or wrong with no shades of grey. Real life, however, is very subjective and there are few things that boil down to a binary assessment of the situation. For some people, this is very difficult to handle and these people tend to be online. A lot.
This also brings up a good point. I am getting very tired of "nerd rage", "nerd culture", "grognard" and other not so subtle derogatory remarks.
If people don't mind using those terms, then I hope they don't mind me banding about a few "quaint" terms of my own.
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I'm not pro- or anti-4E. Being either means that you care one way or the other about 4E. I don't. I am pro-Pathfinder nothing more, nothing less. Whatever happens to Wizards and 4E, I don't care. I hope that everyone retains their jobs there and those that play the game enjoy it. Beyond that, 4E does not affect me one way or the other.
Amen, brother.
-Skeld
This also brings up a good point. I am getting very tired of "nerd rage", "nerd culture", "grognard" and other not so subtle derogatory remarks.
If people don't mind using those terms, then I hope they don't mind me banding about a few "quaint" terms of my own.
I am a grognard. And I'm proud of it. I've invested too many d%*# decades into this hobby and deserve a label that shows it, rather than lumping me in with a "kid" who has only been playing for a couple of years. ;P
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Am I the only one who finds the I'm not pro or con 4 I'm pro pathfinder, and the their is no reason why both games (4th and pathfinder) can't thrive in the same space more than a little disingenious?
If your not for it, your not for it, that's what con is generally used for
You CAN be neither for nor against something. It's called neutrality. Being neutral does NOT mean that you are against something. That's why they call it neutrality.
I am happy to be called a grognard. But I am looking forwards to 4e as well. I guess that is why I am full of self loathing! ;)
LOL!
You CAN be neither for nor against something. It's called neutrality. Being neutral does NOT mean that you are against something. That's why they call it neutrality.
But wait, I thought neutrality was gone? ;) (Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.)
I tried very hard to be civil in my response to Razz, but quite frankly the folks that want to bash 4e and imply that those of us that like it are deluded leaves me in little mood for civility.
That's fair, because I'll admit that even if I'm not real excited about 4e, even I get annoyed with anti-4e threadcrapping (one of the reasons why IF I interject about why I don't like something about 4e, I try to state a reasoned argument about what I think it misses and not just say "Another example of why 4e sucks!" sort of nonsense).
But, in those cases, I'd say call a troll a troll, and leave the pro/anti-4e labels out of it. It's far too easy to over-generalize "4e hater" since it's based on what you think someone's opinion is, whereas "troll" is behavior-based, and therefore not so easily over-generalized. Also, realizing someone is trolling makes you less inclined to feed them with replies.
Either way, civility and perspective should be the order of the day for all board members around here.
You CAN be neither for nor against something. It's called neutrality. Being neutral does NOT mean that you are against something. That's why they call it neutrality.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
You CAN be neither for nor against something. It's called neutrality. Being neutral does NOT mean that you are against something. That's why they call it neutrality.What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Totally apropos of nothing:
"Tell my wife I said 'Hello'"
-Neutral President when he thought he was about to die
Can we stop saying 4e hater?
Razz clearly hates 4E. I'm sure he doesn't mind the epithet.
What I would really appreciate is people being careful about generalizations when they are discussing sensitive topics like Religion, Politics, and 4E.
I'm not pro- or anti-4E. Being either means that you care one way or the other about 4E. I don't. I am pro-Pathfinder nothing more, nothing less. Whatever happens to Wizards and 4E, I don't care. I hope that everyone retains their jobs there and those that play the game enjoy it. Beyond that, 4E does not affect me one way or the other.
Then why are you posting in this thread?
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with whatever opinion you have. But I think it's pretty disingenuous to say you care nothing about 4E, but still involve yourself in conversations like this. I think you’ve made it pretty clear in this forum and elsewhere that you’re anti-4E. You could say I'm "pro-Honesty".
Razz clearly hates 4E. I'm sure he doesn't mind the epithet.
OK, if he doesn't mind, we can call him one.
What I would really appreciate is people being careful about generalizations when they are discussing sensitive topics like Religion, Politics, and 4E.
Not necessarily in that order :)
And seriously, I agree completely.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Then why are you posting in this thread?Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with whatever opinion you have. But I think it's pretty disingenuous to say you care nothing about 4E, but still involve yourself in conversations like this. I think you’ve made it pretty clear in this forum and elsewhere that you’re anti-4E. You could say I'm "pro-Honesty".
I assume (disclaimer, I'm not DMMcCoy, nor do I speak for him) He's here for the same reason I am. To discuss the mechanics of the system in a civil fashion.
I've been vocal that I won't get 4E, not interested in playing 4e. I am curious how it stands up against the hype. and if it will survive splat inflation better than versions before it.
Then why are you posting in this thread?
Because:
1) I'm a member of the Paizo community. And I care about how Paizo's forums appear to newbs. Let me emphasize this point: I care about Paizo.2) I use to care about 4E until the day that Pathfinder RPG was announced. I still lurk the 4E forums and post when something interests me, but little does anymore. This thread interests me.
3) I have seen plenty of "hate" from both "camps". Frankly, I'm sick of it. The biggest offenders from where I sit is that the "pro-4E" camp either fails to recognize their hate for the the "non-pro-4E" camp or they recognize the hate, but its ok when it comes from them (well, more then the "non-pro-4E"ers).
4) I do recognize that there will always be trolls on both sides (Razz, I am looking at you). But that does not mean that you have to feed the troll. If you don't like his posts, why do you respond? Why do you care? Why don't you just report him and let the Paizians give him a little vacation from the forums? Courtesy is alot easier when you don't care about what the troll says and focus on those interested in rational discussion.
5) Labels are offensive. Lumping those not "pro-4E" into the anti-4E category is very offensive.
I think you’ve made it pretty clear in this forum and elsewhere that you’re anti-4E.
Don't confuse my annoyance with people that use poor examples of how 3.5 is terrible or how their DM is a (insert whatever swearword you feel is appropriate) to justify why a new edition is needed with hating 4E. Crosswired and I have bumped head a few times, but I have the greatest respect for him because he has solid, rational reasons for wanting a new edition. I use to hate Wizards because for a while they seemed incapable of saying that their new game is going to be great for no other reason then the current one sucks. As far as I have seen, they have stopped that (BTW, if anyone from WotC is reading this, must appreciated, thank you). And now I have no hard feelings towards them or their game. I wish them well with it, but there is just to much bad blood for me to join with them (Not to mention that Pathfinder RPG has the ingrained flavor/fluff I want while 4E doesn't). I'm ok going my seperate ways.
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(I prefer pro-4E and anti-4E when I am forced to categorize positions,I'm not pro- or anti-4E. Being either means that you care one way or the other about 4E. I don't. I am pro-Pathfinder nothing more, nothing less. Whatever happens to Wizards and 4E, I don't care. I hope that everyone retains their jobs there and those that play the game enjoy it. Beyond that, 4E does not affect me one way or the other.
Well said! I wish them well, but I already have a game I like and not enough time to play too many. In the end, the world needs more gamers not fewer, so I hope this new venture by WoTC can generate more interest in RPG's.
'Hater', much like 'fanboy' and 'racist', are juvenile terms now completely denuded of meaning and should not be used by anyone who wants to be taken seriously.
I am South African. Believe me, racist still has plenty of meaning.
...But that does not mean that you have to feed the troll. If you don't like his posts, why do you respond? Why do you care? Why don't you just report him and let the Paizians give him a little vacation from the forums?
but...but...Epic forum troll drama is Epic.
Razz and Cross have created some nice discussions over time.
I still have some leftover popcorn from the last time.
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...But that does not mean that you have to feed the troll. If you don't like his posts, why do you respond? Why do you care? Why don't you just report him and let the Paizians give him a little vacation from the forums?
but...but...Epic forum troll drama is Epic.
Razz and Cross have created some nice discussions over time.
I still have some leftover popcorn from the last time.
Shouldn't that be a thread of legend? What CR is that anyway. Oh, that's right - no more CR.
Shouldn't that be a thread of legend? What CR is that anyway. Oh, that's right - no more CR.
it's a template that makes it a elite thread
Don't hate the player - hate the game.
They jus be playa hatin'
I am South African. Believe me, racist still has plenty of meaning.
I believe what he's saying is that the term "racist" is so often used in situations where it doesn't actually apply, that calling someone a "racist" doesn't carry much weight. I don't deny that racism exists, but false accusers have made the term far less meaningful.
I just want to read the damn rules. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about 4E right now.
That and I would appreciate if people would take off the asshats.
I just want to read the damn rules. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about 4E right now.
Watch your damn language! :P
The problem is not people who see good and bad and want to discuss the bad part in a civil manner. The problem are people that post that see nothing good and only want to post to tell those of us that want to play 4e that we are deluded and need to play the TRUE D&D whatever that means.
That is very true.
Sadly (IMO) those people are so rabidly-opposed that they aren't interested in seeing the potential good a new version offers, and are not interested in opinions to the contrary.
Amusingly, and as CWM has pointed out elsewhere, the game has changed 2.5 times before (I think 3.5 is only worth half a change). If we're going to reject efforts to improve the rules, shouldn't we also reject 3.5, 3.0, and 2e?
But again, I don't think reason is running some of the 'discussion' nowadays :/
A few more weeks, guys... well, longer than that for me because it's a long trip for the mail.