Sorry I didn't post this in the existing thread. The reason I didn't is because I'm not debating or discussing the broad issues, only one specific topic.
I'm playtesting this last Tuesday, May 16, and the party is up against an Attic Whisperer (it was a side-trek I made up for 'Burnt Offerings').
Attic Whisperer's can Steal Voice, whose 3.5 based rule text reminds me that would prevent spellcasting and turning. Presumably because you need to invoke your God to turn (or to channel positive divine energy as we know it now).
I made a ruling that the cleric couldn't turn and we moved on... But it begged the question, would magical silence, or in this case, the loss of voice prevent the channeling of positive energy?
I'm not throwing this out for debate, I already made my call. But I welcome other opinions, and Editorial Rulings! The Cleric is a cleric, not a psionist. They need to be able to call out to their God.. unless Jason or Monte tell me otherwise (either on the board, or just in the next release rules)
Nevertheless, the question is out there to be answered and it might be helpful if we knew for sure.
YOU KNOW... The Silence issue might actually come into play with a lot of other new abilities, just a thought. Hmmm...
Channeling energy (PRPG, p. 59)
- is a supernatural ability,
- requires a standard action,
- requires the cleric to present his holy symbol.
Supernatural abilities (just as SLAs) don't have components, esp. no verbal component.
It can be used while silenced, no doubt about it, no need for clarification.
Then by all accounts the Attic Whisperer, in Pathfinder #1, has an illegal ability.
Jason Bulmahn, the previous poster's comments does seem correct from a 3.5 perspective. Despite their opinion that the matter doesn't need to be clarified, I'm tagging this for your consideration anyway. If you don't think there's a problem, I won't press the matter.
What we have here is an ability that hinges upon a role-playing story element (spiritual devotion, faith, and worship of a higher power) that becomes an innate power not unlike, say, a demon's ability to Dimension Door. That is, the cleric merely 'thinks' and there is a gush of positive energy.... That's kinda easy to the point of being shallow isn't it? Calling upon a higher power becomes as easy as turning on a water faucett. Granted, it must have been like that in 3.5 and I never noticed it till the Attic Whisperer came along.
I can make the counter-point for silent prayer being just as meaningful as audible prayer, and that is logical. Even so, silent prayer doesn't reinforce role-playing. Just consider it.
Again, I'd like to remind respondents that I'm not necessarily looking for correct answer for 3.5, but the possible best answer for Pathfinder RPG. While I don't need the Development Team to post a personal response to me in this thread, I would appreciate that others allow them to decide what is, and is not, a post that bears value. The Development Team has asked that we show each other that much respect, let us honor that request.
|
What we have here is an ability that hinges upon a role-playing story element (spiritual devotion, faith, and worship of a higher power) that becomes an innate power not unlike, say, a demon's ability to Dimension Door. That is, the cleric merely 'thinks' and there is a gush of positive energy.... That's kinda easy to the point of being shallow isn't it?
Hardly. It has both a somatic and a focus component. Many spells are easier than that to begin with and can be reduced to a purely mental effort by metamagic, which isn't a possibility for turning.
Creative Director
|
Then by all accounts the Attic Whisperer, in Pathfinder #1, has an illegal ability.
No more illegal than any other special attack. What we've got going on here is a difference in flavor. The way I (and, I suspect, MANY of the game's players) have always envisioned Turn Undead is that when you do it, you verbally shout down and castigate the undead in question: "GET YE BACK TO HELL, UNCLEAN SPIRIT" and so on. Turn Undead is kind of like exorcisim, in that way; that's why I've always assumed it played off of Charisma, in fact. It represents the character not only blasting an undead creature with the wrath of his deity, but also blasting them with the conviction of his own force of personality.
Personally, I'd rather see channeling be a noisy, loud, blast of deity wrath AND character wrath. It doesn't make sense to me that a cleric could use this ability stealthily, in other words.
I have no issue with the mechanic, and I think that yes it can be done in a zone of silence. What I think needs added is the individual flavour of the diety involved. I like to add the RP stuff anywhere I can as "special effects" and not game rules lawyers fodder.
Case in point this has got me thinking about our cleric or Torag. I think that when she calls upon Torag for her Channeling there will be a loud "Clang" of a hammer on an anvil, sparks flying out from her and a wash of heat like a just opened oven or furnace. Everyone will know she did it, it will still harm undead and heal living. But she will be able to do it simply by standing there, with her Holy Warhammer in hand.
I will be thinking about this now for all the gods and what the evil ones would look like. They don't have to even be the same for the same diety. Players & GMs could personnelize it to their hearts content to help them role play it. Add things like smells and aromas, tremors in the ground, whatever. But as per the rules every one knows that the cleric did it and the effects would be as per the game rules of harming undead and healing living.
I think anytime RP stuff, especially allowing players to add there own is a great oppurtunity. Again these boards are great and full of inspiration. Thanks
|
The way I (and, I suspect, MANY of the game's players) have always envisioned Turn Undead is that when you do it, you verbally shout down and castigate the undead in question: "GET YE BACK TO HELL, UNCLEAN SPIRIT" and so on. Turn Undead is kind of like exorcisim, in that way; that's why I've always assumed it played off of Charisma, in fact. It represents the character not only blasting an undead creature with the wrath of his deity, but also blasting them with the conviction of his own force of personality.
...and, presumably, a gallon of cleric-spit?
You could compromise, here, and still allow turning, but with the spell-failure chance currently associated with deafness (20%?).
Then, there's still a point to silencing the enemy cleric, to protect your undead minions, but the cleric's player doesn't feel totally hosed.
Acually, I rather like that compromise. Well done. :o)
Then by all accounts the Attic Whisperer, in Pathfinder #1, has an illegal ability.Personally, I'd rather see channeling be a noisy, loud, blast of deity wrath AND character wrath. It doesn't make sense to me that a cleric could use this ability stealthily, in other words.
Exactly how I always saw it, might be a by product of too many Hammer House of Horror Vampire films in my youth.
I would rather drown in the sea of holy man's spittle than have that happen in my campaign.
No more illegal than any other special attack. What we've got going on here is a difference in flavor. The way I (and, I suspect, MANY of the game's players) have always envisioned Turn Undead is that when you do it, you verbally shout down and castigate the undead in question: "GET YE BACK TO HELL, UNCLEAN SPIRIT" and so on.
Just for the record, if James and any subsquent poster were to go back to the original first post, this is how I was interpreting Turn Undead too.
But over the course of two days, I had two people shutting me down cold, without any discussion of the Pros and Cons.
I can't say how appreciative I am that somebody would speak up and say that I'm not crazy or just flat wrong.
Turn Undead is kind of like exorcisim, in that way; that's why I've always assumed it played off of Charisma, in fact. It represents the character not only blasting an undead creature with the wrath of his deity, but also blasting them with the conviction of his own force of personality.
Personally, I'd rather see channeling be a noisy, loud, blast of deity wrath AND character wrath. It doesn't make sense to me that a cleric could use this ability stealthily, in other words.
Same here. That's how they did it in the old vampire flicks, and to me, if you're calling upon the might of your god to help and protect you- be demonstrative about it. I just felt like I was in the minority until James showed up to post.
But over the course of two days, I had two people shutting me down cold, without any discussion of the Pros and Cons.
I understood your post as a request for clarification, and that just isn't necessary - the rules are clear. If you wanted to discuss a change to the current rules, I apologize, that didn't appear to be the intention of your post to me.
Under that premise I even agree with you. Give Channeling a verbal component. In The Excorzist, it says: "The power of Christ commands you...", and that's fitting to D&D, too (fitting in whatever entity the cleric worships).
As the burst of energy comes from the cleric's deity, I too can see the need for that cleric to say their deity's name, to help call attention to their need for that energy burst and to focus their own "wrath" for the channeling.
I too think that that specific point needs to be addressed in the rules.
I would hate to see "evil" clerics be able to finger their holy symbol in town, and have dozens of civilians drop dead, for no apparent reason.
The image of a cleric of Torag banging his warhammer against his shield or armor as he channels is a nice one.
I understood your post as a request for clarification, and that just isn't necessary - the rules are clear. If you wanted to discuss a change to the current rules, I apologize, that didn't appear to be the intention of your post to me.
I was unclear in my intentions, that's apparent even to me. Truthfully, I didn't know what the rule was, and once I knew for sure.. I wanted to discuss it. I think I was also particularly sensitive last Friday, I wrote a lot of crabby posts and deleted them minutes later. Anyway, we're cool, no hard feelings. I'm glad this got put forward for discussion now.
Turn Undead is kind of like exorcisim,
The power of Paizo compels you! The power of Paizo compels you!
You could compromise, here, and still allow turning, but with the spell-failure chance currently associated with deafness (20%?).
Then, there's still a point to silencing the enemy cleric, to protect your undead minions, but the cleric's player doesn't feel totally hosed.
That's a nice compromise - well done. I like this as it feels right, the Cleric (or Paladin) could be shocked and momentarily concerned as they shout their praises and can't hear anything. That brief lapse in concentration would be enough to cause an arcane spell to fail, so it could do the same to Channeling. On a successful check it goes something more like: "God, I know I can't hear me but you still can!" [mouths shouting in slo-mo with no noise]
Awesome! Well done snorter!
Peace,
tfad
I live to serve...
<backs out of room, rubbing hands...>
It was a good compromise. :)
Just to play devil's advocate here...
Turning undead, in all it's cinematic and written forms, aren't just the screaming faith type.
There is also the "quickly raise the hidden cross in the vampire's face and he suddenly backs away quickly" type. Or the physically weak, scared person who happens to hold up his cross almost shakingly (however his conviction in faith is strong) and the undead hiss in fear and back away.
No shouting of prayer, no screaming in defiance, no Name of He who shall burn you with His divine fire, etc.
Now, if you are playing a Battle Cleric, it makes sense that you'd yell in defiance at your enemies. I do that with my Fighter all the time, it's called a Battle Cry.
However, I see no problem with a studious priest in robes that calmly walks to the forefront, and presents his holy symbol with stern conviction... and a blast of energy flows forth burning away the undead and energizing his friends.
You can make it so the blast of energy itself isn't quiet.. maybe a noise appropriate to your god accompanies the bright light. Not exactly inconspicuous, and not exactly "stealthy". But it doesn't need to require verbal components to make work.
An effect isn't necessarily stealthy just because there is no verbal component. And it's not like you won't know where it came from (point blank effect, presenting symbol, I'm assuming an accompanying white light that's originating from the holy symbol, etc).
Some food for thought...
Some food for thought...
Those are some fair points.. If it's a matter of faith, one might pray mightily and silently... and some tense scenes in vampire movies have been more quiet than loud..
The late 70's version of Salem's Lot comes to mind. Not a silent scene, but that was a tense battle of wills. (James Mason rocked in that!) "What will it be Preacher Man? Your faith, against that of the Master's?" When the priest traded himself for the boy, his faith in God to protect them all was broken, and the cross was knocked from his hand.
Though, I can see proclaiming one's faith loudly and forcefully would be an asset. In that respect, I think Snorter cottoned on to something. If silenced, might that be something that could interfere in a cleric's ability to reach out and channel their god?
I am imagining channeling energy as taking everything the cleric has, in order to bridge the gap between this world and their god.. Maybe all the strength they need comes from within, or perhaps they have to demonstrate it, if only for that final push..
|
Personally... my home games have a slight compromise. if the cleric wants to channel silently, it takes two of their daily turn attempts. It is harder to focus on contacting the deity without words to siphon your intent. Its like dipping a ladle into a full pot of soup and serving yourself without using your thumbs. if anyone has read the Terry Goodkind sword of truth series, I envision it similar to a confessor's ability (I've even used the similar noise/pressure change when describing it before.).
Celric had a good comment over in a thread that discusses the flavor changes.. it touches upon the mechanics, and so I thought it was worthy enough to bundle over here.
I've thought about this quite a bit in the last two days and here is what I came up with:
If the cleric was per RAW 3.5, I would have to say that invoking their god to turn or rebuke undead is a supernatural ability that needs no verbal componant. By presenting your (un)holy symbol and focusing your will, you are giving the undead a glimpse of the energies (positive or negative) that are yours to command, and the undead upon seeing this display are either disintegrated, frightened into running, or compeled to obey you. Personally, I'd never thought about using silence to preserve the undead from a turning attempt, though I don't believe that I would have allowed such an attempt to succeed.
The PF Cleric is a different creature though. He can channel positive/negative energies to much greater effect and either heal or harm those around him. The cleric, no matter his flavor, can now affect the world about him with significant consequences because his ability to effect ONLY UNDEAD has been expanded so greatly. No longer can the good cleric spend a turn attempt to heal his wounded comrads in the midst of combat with gnolls because the gnolls will be likewise healed. No longer can the evil cleric repuke undead within a circle of lesser priests, as that would likely kill all his acolites. In this case, when the ability to turn/rebuke is used to specifically heal or harm something that is NOT undead, I would say that silently presenting your holy symbol is simply not enough. You must be able to invoke your god's will, in some manner, as well. Hopefully the rules will bear this out.