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Armor - A complete Overhaul

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raidou RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

Apr 30, 2008, 12:44 pm

This is going to be a long post. If weapon vs. armor type tables make you want to gouge your eyes out, you may want to self-medicate before continuing.

I've drawn up a collection of house-rules I've been toying with for some time... tweaked them, standardized them, and actually placed the result in written form. I don't expect anything here to be seriously considered, but I do hope that it's food for thought and that there are some worthwhile concepts to take-away.

Here are my arguments:

My solutions to these issues are as follows:

No Armor
Light Flexible Armor
Hybrid Leathers (bandit armor)
Hide Armors
Flexible Mail Armor
Hybrid Mail Armor
Plate Armor.

[2] Make the results of "armor training" dependent on the type of armor chosen, rather than a flat modification across armor types.

[3] Identify key points about armor that could improve with better training
armor bonus
max DEX
armor check penalty
spell failure (*)
speed reduction
effective weight (**)
time needed to don armor/remove armor
special properties

* spell failure is accounted for through the class features (or feat choices) of spellcasting classes who may want to wear armor.
** encumbrance schmencumbrance. Nobody plays this way.

[4] Create 4 levels of proficiency for each broad armor type. Each "armor training" step gets you one level of proficiency across the armor type (all plate armors, or all flexible mail armors, for example)

[5] make armor choice really about choosing the best type of armor for the character you want to play.

Here is my first-pass at creating unique effects for armors at each level of proficiency. The meat of this essay, if you will. If you're still with me, I hope you enjoy. Final note: many of the basic armor bonuses and/or max DEX numbers do not exactly match the PHB values. This is deliberate.

--------- NO ARMOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

Really Unarmored:

Gladiator/Decorative Armor:

Note: Basically I wanted to add a category for things that should not count towards armor, but are fun nonetheless. I call this category "gladiator armor" but it could also be named "armored loincloth" or "chainmail bikini." Go wild. It exactly duplicates the "padded armor" entry below. You don't get any bonus from the "no armor" category while decked out in this fashion.

---------- LIGHT FLEXIBLE ARMOR ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Leather Armor:

Studded Leather Armor:

ACP Note: a -1 armor check penalty will be negated by creating a masterwork version of this armor. Therefore it does not make sense to grant bonuses toward negating that penalty.

Padded Leather Armor:

--------- CHEAP LEATHER HYBRID ARMOR (Bandit Armors) --------------------------------------------------------

A Note on "Bandit Armors"

The net bonus (armor plus maximun dexterity) for these is one or two points lower than other armor types. These are the armors of last resort, used by desperate brigands hiding in the woods. Nobody sets out to make "masterwork" armors of this type. Nobody enchants them. No well-trained fighter would put more than a single extra proficiency into them. If a bandit king reaches a sufficient level to allow for additional armor specialization, one would think he'd have stumbled across a better suit of armor. This rant is a long-winded way of saying I don't feel like creating further specialization abilities for these crappy armor types.

Leather Scale Armor (Based on v3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide)

Description: constructed from scraps of leather, cured and sewn into an overlapping, scale-like pattern. "Masterwork" leather scale is merely the result of high-quality materials... not the result of a master craftsman.

Ring Mail Armor (Based on v3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide)

Description: flexible leather armor into which has been sewn (or riveted) hundreds of metal rings. This is a fast, cheap alternative to the more durable chain armors.

Brigandine Armor (Based on v3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide)

Description: Thin metal strips sewn in between flexible leather layers. Brigandine is the poor man's alternative to heavier mail armors, particularly splint mail.

--------- HIDE ARMORS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

Hide Shirt (based on Pathfinder, CotCC Player's Guide)

ACP Note: the -1 armor check penalty will be negated by creating a masterwork version of this armor. Therefore it does not make sense to grant bonuses toward negating that penalty.

Hide Armor:

Author's note: Altered some aspects of this armor to bring it in line with other medium armors and make it a more enticing choice for druid or barbarian characters.

Scale Armor (New)

Author's note: This armor type is like hide armor, but made of the scales of monstrous creatures. Effectively, it is what should result from a PC who asks the DM... "Dude, can I make armor out of that thing...?" It's a good way to handle dragonhide armor.

--------- FLEXIBLE MAIL ARMOR --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chain Shirt:

Chain Mail:

Scale Mail:

--------- HYBRID MAIL ARMORS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Banded Mail Armor:

Splint Mail Armor:

Lamellar Armor:

--------- PLATE ARMORS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------

Plate Armors apply armor check penalties to perception checks due to the heavy helms. Removing the helm will negate the perception penalty but will impose a -2 penalty to armor bonus (-1 for breastplate) until it is worn again. Armor Check Penalty also applies to Fortitude Saves against Heat Dangers.

Breastplate:

Half-Plate Armor (Plate Mail):

Field-Plate Armor:

Full-Plate Armor:

seekerofshadowlight

Apr 30, 2008, 01:03 pm

Not bad really I kinda like it. Hummm this might be nice if rolled into the fighter I was guessing that is what ya ment it to be.

Ridolfin

May 1, 2008, 02:00 pm

raidou wrote:

This is going to be a long post. If weapon vs. armor type tables make you want to gouge your eyes out, you may want to self-medicate before continuing.

Ok. I like what you are doing here. It brings rules AND flavor in being armored or not and how.

Also it stays simple and practical. Thank you to share it.

I will come back later if I find some good ideas who can enhance your stuff. But it is quite already neat.

Be creative

ckafrica

May 1, 2008, 05:54 pm

My only problem with this is still will lead people to only wear the best kind of armor for each category. I think simpler categories that are not dependent on the kind of armor or its make up would be better. If I want to have someone looking like they have heavy hides that are treated like plate armor than it should be an option. That way my barbarian can look like a barbarian without being penalized for a cosmetic and thematic decision.

My suggestion would be to have different qualities of armor for each armor type category (I think just light, med and heavy is fine) where the actual composition of the armor is immaterial. That way you can evolve into better armor without having to change the style of my character.

DracoDruid

May 1, 2008, 11:55 pm

Not quite in tune with the topic, but anybody wondered why hide armor is medium and not light?

seekerofshadowlight

May 2, 2008, 12:01 am

i have wondered the same thing

golem101

May 2, 2008, 12:17 am

raidou wrote:

This is going to be a long post. If weapon vs. armor type tables make you want to gouge your eyes out, you may want to self-medicate before continuing.

I really like what you did, and appreciate the time for getting the whole thing neatly thought and written down.

I would expand and elaborate a little how you gain "steps" or proficiencies in armors.
For fighters - as in AR 2 - it's easy, but other classes who rely quite a bit on armor (clerics, paladins) how should handle that? Feats? Class abilities/powers/bonuses?

Great job again, pal.

Aubrey the Malformed

May 2, 2008, 12:41 am

Interesting. You say you have play-tested it - how did it come out compared to the current 3.5 system? And yes - how do you go up in proficiency levels? Do you envisage using feats?

raidou RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

May 2, 2008, 09:06 am

@ ckafrica: One of my goals was to replace the idea of "there is a best armor type" with "there is a best armor type for my particular DEX score, movement, and in-character needs. They're not perfect. For example, I'm a bit stumped on the banded/splint armors and I'm not 100% satisfied with the end result. You're basically wearing a barrel, so it would be harder to constrict/crush under that kind of protection, but does that warrant someone actually specializing in it? Not really sure yet. But in terms of other armor types... let's say your sneaky character wants to conceal the fact that he's wearing armor. Then Chain Shirt's for you. Barbarians who want movement will go with Hide Shirt while those who want ferocity will wo with regular Hide. There are certain Plate armors that let you move better, versus those that absorb more damage. My basic point is I want armor choice to be more meaningful. In past games, that "perfect armor" in my groups used to always be "mithril breastplate."

@ golem101: We'd need to have a system by which all character classes improve their weapon and armor skills. Granting various rates of "armor training" to all classes is the easiest way to do this with fighters getting the most improvement slots. If I were running the show, I'd combine armor and weapon training slots and have the player choose whether they want to improve offense or defense. My home game did this based on the proficiency rates in 2E.

@ Aubry: Playtesting took the following format: The armor groups were set as I've outlined and so reduced access to some armor types for some classes from the start. 2E's weapon proficiency advancement formed the base for how often a class got access to extra training. If a character spent a second proficiency on the armor type, they got an AC boost, a max DEX improvement, and a special ability. A second proficiency mastered the armor and got another ability.

Prior to writing this down, I had only actually playtested with the Hide, flex-mail and light armor groups. I extrapolated the rest. I made armor enhancements as expensive as weapon enhancements to compensate for the added power. I did not notice any particularly glaring problems but I'm just one DM and it's my idea so there's innate bias toward my group and playstyle.

Thanks for your comments!

golem101

May 2, 2008, 09:38 am

raidou wrote:

@ golem101: We'd need to have a system by which all character classes improve their weapon and armor skills. Granting various rates of "armor training" to all classes is the easiest way to do this with fighters getting the most improvement slots. If I were running the show, I'd combine armor and weapon training slots and have the player choose whether they want to improve offense or defense. My home game did this based on the proficiency rates in 2E.

I like the idea of a generic "martial training step" with which a character/player can improve his own defense or offense ability basing on personal style.

There are a few gray areas to work out (restricting but not penalizing spellcasters, preventing multiclassing loopholes and uberpowerful combos with fighter builds, etc.), but it looks very interesting.

Barring glaring and unforeseen problems (I'm no rules math geek, so I'll let other more competent guys do the work), I hereby state my support for this approach to armors.

ckafrica

May 5, 2008, 04:59 am

Raidou:

Well that's my point. I don't want to have everyone wearing only the best kind of armor because, well it's the best. If I want a character who is extremely agile and who wears gladiator armor I don't want to be stuck with substandard stats. I want to just say I wear light armor that looks like this...

I'm not trying to poo poo the effort you put into this, but it seems to me you've still left things in the "if I want the best protection for my stats, I am wearing X armor type even though it doesn't fit my character concept" situation. That is the situation I want to get rid of.

I tried to play a barbarian using rhino hides one time cause I thought that sounded awesome for him. Unfortunately getting pummelled all the time sucked and I had to switch into more protective armor so I wasn't a liability to my party. Game mechanics that stifle character visualization makes me cry because it forces me to choose between being effective and playing the character of my imagination.

Just my issue I guess.

Now if you could provide a sets of mechanically different armor that balanced and fit different playing styles, yet still allowed my imagination of what that armor actually is, I will be the first to cheer. (Assuming I'm the next to post that is.

Jal Dorak

May 5, 2008, 07:26 am

DracoDruid wrote:

Not quite in tune with the topic, but anybody wondered why hide armor is medium and not light?

I think it is entirely to do with the druid. They wanted to give the druid the option of having a high AC, but needed a drawback to go with it. Thus, they can get the same AC as a rogue in studded leather, but they have their speed reduced.

EDIT: PS, good ideas here, a bit more flavour than 3.5. Not sure about backwards compatability but I might try this out as a houserule.

Leozilio

Jun 1, 2008, 07:46 am

I like it alot.

Leozilio

Jun 2, 2008, 05:33 am

I didnt really get how the pcs get the proficience lvls. Feats? The armor abilities do fighter counts?

Selgard

Jun 3, 2008, 07:25 am

Two things:

First- that is a LOT of work. Good job. I'm not convinced its better than the current system though, it's just.. alot more to worry about.

Secondly: I hit reply and it won't show me who said what, unfortunately: but to the fellow worried about how armor looks-

Armor is just like a weapon in D&D. The fluff is meaningless. If you want your barbarian to wear rhino armor but to act like fullplate, talk to your Dm about it. As long as the *stats* are the same the fluff should be entirely irrelevant.

I mean, c'mon- it's not really game breaking to have (stats of fullplate) that look like grey rhino hide is it? or to be the hide of a bear?

Mechanics and Fluff for some things (weapons and armor esp) should not necessarily be tied together.

-S

Pan Dion

Sep 16, 2008, 10:45 pm

I'm by no means a rules expert.. and I apologize for the long post. I just like to play the game.. Someone else is usually the gamemaster. That being said.. Armor has always bugged me. An over simplified example of why is as follows.. Take a character.. class/race doesn't matter really.. Make one version of this character 1st level, and another say 10th level (basically the same exact character.. same starting stats and equipment etc.. just at different levels). They are the same character and wearing the same armor (yes, I know characters can upgrade equipment and get stat improvements etc.. but bear with me). It doesn't make sense to me that the 10th level version of the character isn't harder to hit than the 1st level version. I think the 10th level character should have learned by combat experience etc., how to avoid being hit, use their armor to it's potential and position himself/herself so it's a glancing or deflected blow etc... and be a bit better at this than the same character at 1st level. What I'm getting at.. is it makes sense for the character to improve his/her Armor Class as he/she advances, based on improved skill in combat.

I've heard argued that the character's increased Hit Points sort of account for this, in that the higher level character can take more of a beating and stay in the fight.. basically.. the Hit Points soaking up the glancing blows etc. In a way, I can sort of understand that.. But it still bugs me. Which gets me going on Hit Points (belongs in another thread, so I'll be brief). Increasing how much physical damage a character can take as he/she advances in level bugs me. I would think it would make more sense to break Hit Points into two different stats. Say one stat is the actual physical damage the character can take before dying. This stat does not increase with level. Another stat would be for keeping track of wear and tear, non-life threatening injuries etc., and would increase with level. Damage taken in combat would come off the wear and tear stat first, and when that hits zero you start taking the real damage (Critical hits might make more sense to affect the physical damage instead..). Then healing would be at differing rates, but occur at the same time. More time is needed to heal the real damage versus the wear and tear, which might cut down on the getting badly injured and having to call it a day problem so you can heal (which can hurt game time). Enough on that.. but it is sort of related to the Armor problem.

Back to the Armor.. What is the real purpose of Armor anyway? When you really think about it.. it's purpose is not really to make the wearer more difficult to hit (in a way, it can actually make it more difficult to move and avoid the blow in the first place.). It's purpose is to reduce the damage taken by the wearer when they do get hit. Silly example.. But if a character holds still while you clobber them, the Armor isn't going to make you miss.. it's going to protect the wearer to some degree from the hit. I've heard of rules that apply Damage Reduction to armor etc., which seems like a good idea and makes sense to me. In a game though, keeping track of Damage Reduction can be a pain. Game wise, having too many blows not connect could make some combat take too much game time.. so there are playability trade-offs to consider as well. I'd like to see some kind of change to the rules or some alternate rules to take these things into account more. Any thoughts?

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