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They have excerpt from the [url=http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080414a]4th Edition Monster Manual[/url
for those who don't care to link:
Devils can leave the Nine Hells, but it is very difficult for them to do so. They can be sent forth by mighty archdevils through costly infernal magic, or travel through rare and well-hidden magical portals (usually only a few at a time when conditions are right). However, most devils outside of the Nine Hells have been brought to the natural world by evil mortals employing dark rituals.
Devils lust for the souls of mortals; each mortal spirit devils enslave undermines the gods’ sway over mortalkind and adds to the Nine Hells’ power. Devils torment and consume captured souls to fuel the mightiest of their infernal works, including evil constructs and terrible invocations. Devils compete fiercely to gather souls in order to earn favor and status within the infernal order, but they all work together toward the common goal of gathering souls for the Nine Hells.
Some devils seek to drive mortals into surrendering their souls through tyranny, despair, or terror; some seek to destroy the servants of good-aligned gods and tear down their works; and still others are tempters and deceivers who inflame mortal ambition, desire, greed, or pride.
Long ago, Asmodeus and his vassals forged dark pacts with various evil deities. Devils are therefore commonly found serving Bane, Gruumsh, Tiamat, Torog, and Vecna. Devils carefully honor their bargains—but they are extremely good at giving reckless mortals exactly what they ask for, and few of those who bargain with devils escape the final payment.
A Primer to the Nine Hells
The Nine Hells form a single dominion on the Astral Sea. Black smoke surrounds them, and beyond this choking veil broods a great, volcanic world whose surface is a blasted plain of ash and jagged stone. This is Avernus, the first of the Nine Hells, where embers rain down from a sunless sky and iron fortresses rise up between rivers of magma. Astral vessels approaching too closely find themselves plummeting through the skies of Avernus rather than sailing in the Astral Sea, landing in the Nine Hells with a great fiery impact. A helmsman of great skill can sometimes negotiate the passage and alight on the ashen plain safely, but the only sure way to avoid fiery disaster is to find the astral influence of the River Styx and follow it down through the basalt cliffs. The Styx cuts a jagged course across Avernus and eventually plunges down into the lower Hells—each one a tremendous continent-sized cavern within the roiling world.
Avernus, the first Hell, forms the surface of this terrible dominion. It’s a volcanic domain strewn with the blood and wreckage of a million battles. Fireballs plunge from the smoke-filled sky. The archdevil Bel, a military genius, protects and rules Avernus from a towering iron citadel.
A great iron gate in a mountainside of Avernus leads to Dis, the second Hell. Dis is an iron-walled city that lies within a vast cavern, sprawling unevenly amid the cavern’s jagged, mountainous floor. Dispater, the ruler of this Hell, is famous as the most cautious and calculating of the archdevils.
The cavern of Dis gradually descends and broadens into the great, low, brooding vault of Minauros, the Third Hell. A constant oily rain pelts down from the ceiling, and the black soil of Minauros is a vast series of mud flats, swamps, and mires, some heated into bubbling, stinking mud volcanoes by the heat rising from below. The serpentine and supremely boastful archdevil Mammon rules here.
Phlegethos, the fourth Hell, lies far below its predecessors. Dank steps cut into the stinking fumaroles of Minauros lead down several miles to a fiery cavern, where the air ripples with heat distortion and cascades of lava pour down from volcanic fissures in the ceiling miles overhead. The ambitious archdevil Fierna presides, with her grim father Belial as the true power behind the throne.
Stygia lies as deep as Phlegethos, but is many hundreds of miles away from its fiery neighbor—it underlies Dis, and dismal stairs of ice and iron link the two. The fifth Hell is cold and dark. Within Stygia’s cavern lies a vast frozen sea dotted with towering icebergs. Faint auroras of green-blue frostfire dance far above the sea, casting long shadows. Imprisoned within one of these mighty bergs is the archdevil Levistus, trapped forever by Asmodeus for some great betrayal.
Asmodeus’s daughter, the fiendishly beautiful Glasya, rules Malbolge, the sixth Hell. Long, icy canals lead hundreds of miles from frozen Stygia to this great cavern, illuminated by sinister yellow-green lamps suspended from the ceiling like tiny suns. Long ago Malbolge was a vast garden, the delight of the deity who ruled this sphere before Asmodeus, but now its superficial beauty cannot hide a feculent underbelly: autumnal trees with grasping roots, beautiful white towers with corpses impaled on their battlements, shimmering ponds with poisoned waters, and the like.
Maladomini, the seventh Hell, is a tremendous maze of winding tunnels, each miles across. These passages reach several of the lower Hells, including Malbolge, Cania, and Nessus. Within these vast tunnels lie crumbling cities, sludge-filled rivers, and vast tracts of land mined to absolute depletion. Black ichor erupts from the earth, and swarms of flies harry all. Here rules the archdevil Baalzebul, a sluglike monstrosity bereft of compassion.
The icy layer of Stygia seems like a paradise compared to Cania, the eighth Hell. This vast gulf deep within the world is another cold domain, where mile-high glaciers grind across a forbidding landscape so cold that few creatures can bear it. The wickedly handsome archdevil Mephistopheles rules Cania from a palace of ice lit with crackling hellfire.
The darkest of Cania’s rifts plunge hundreds of miles further down to Nessus, the ninth and deepest of the Hells. This is home to the god-tyrant Asmodeus, father of all devils. Nessus is a vast, vertical maze of chasms so large and so deep they are rooted in the seething fires at the core of the cursed sphere. Great infernal cities and fiendish armies lie hidden within these fiery depths.
Succubus
Succubi tempt mortals into performing evil deeds, using their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women. Although seduction and betrayal are their forte, succubi are also practiced spies and assassins. Succubi serve more powerful devils as scouts, advisors, and even concubines. Because of their guile and shapechanging ability, they are frequently chosen to serve as infernal emissaries to important mortals.
Succubus Level 9 Controller
Medium immortal humanoid (devil, shapechanger) XP 400
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +8; darkvision
HP 90; Bloodied 45
AC 23; Fortitude 17, Reflex 21, Will 23
Resist 20 fire
Speed 6, fly 6
(m) Corrupting Touch (standard; at-will)
+14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 6 damage.
(m) Charming Kiss (standard; at-will) * Charm
+14 vs. AC; on a hit, the succubus makes a secondary attack against the same target.
Secondary Attack: +12 vs. Will; the target cannot attack the succubus, and if the target is adjacent to the succubus when the succubus is targeted by a melee or a ranged attack, the target interposes itself and becomes the target of the attack instead. The effects last until the succubus or one of its allies attacks the target or until the succubus dies.
If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day. The succubus can affect only one target at a time with its charming kiss.
(r) Dominate (standard; at-will) * Charm
Ranged 5; +12 vs. Will; the target is dominated until the end of the succubus’s next turn.
Change Shape (minor; at-will) * Polymorph
The succubus can alter its physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual (see Change Shape, page 280).
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Supernal
Skills Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Insight +13
Str 11 (+4) Dex 18 (+8) Wis 19 (+8)
Con 10 (+4) Int 15 (+6) Cha 22 (+10)
Succubus Tactics
When exposed for what it is, a succubus can be a deadly foe. It can manipulate the emotions of mortal adversaries, turning them against each other or making them slavishly loyal to it with a mere kiss.
A succubus that is confronted uses dominate on a worthy adversary. It then uses charming kiss on a dominated foe, keeping him or her nearby while it attacks other enemies with its corrupting touch.
Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,000)
1 succubus (level 9 controller)
2 snaketongue assassins (level 9 lurker)
2 crushgrip constrictors (level 9 soldier)
War Devil
Champions of the Nine Hells, war devils obey only pit fiends and archdevils. They also lead lesser devils in forays against those who stand in the way of their masters’ plans. War devils brought to the mortal world sometimes arise as warmasters or generals, leading the armies of evil mortal tyrants.
War Devil (Malebranche) Level 22 Brute (Leader)
Large immortal humanoid (devil) XP 4,150
Initiative +17 Senses Perception +15; darkvision
HP 255; Bloodied 127
AC 35; Fortitude 34, Reflex 32, Will 30
Resist 30 fire
Speed 8, fly 8 (clumsy)
(m) Claw (standard; at-will)
+26 vs. AC; 1d6 + 8 damage.
(m) Trident (standard; recharge 4 5 6 ) * Weapon
Reach 2; +26 vs. AC; 4d4 + 8 damage and ongoing 5 damage (save ends), and the target slides into any square adjacent to the war devil and is knocked prone.
(r) Besieged Foe (minor; at-will)
Ranged sight; automatic hit; the target is marked, and allies of the war devil gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls made against the target until the encounter ends or the war devil marks a new target.
(r) Devilish Transposition (move; at-will) * Teleportation
Ranged 20; the war devil and an allied devil within range swap positions.
(r) Fiendish Tactics (minor; recharge 5 6 )
Ranged 10; affects up to 2 allied devils of the war devil’s level or lower; each target can take a move action or make a basic attack.
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Skills Intimidate +20
Str 27 (+19) Dex 23 (+17) Wis 19 (+15)
Con 25 (+18) Int 15 (+13) Cha 18 (+15)
Equipment trident
War Devil Tactics
Despite their brutish appearance, war devils are outstanding tacticians and clever leaders. They use besieged foe and fiendish tactics to direct their subordinates against dangerous foes, but they eagerly leap into the fray when the time is right, using devilish transposition to exchange places with a lesser devil (often one with the mobility to penetrate the enemies’ ranks).
War Devil Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Religion check.
DC 25: War devils (also known as malebranches) are among the most powerful devils that are routinely summoned by mortals.
Encounter Groups
War devils often serve as “muscle” for pit fiends or archdevils, or they directly command contingents of lesser devils.
Level 21 Encounter (XP 19,750)
1 war devil (level 22 brute)
1 ice devil (level 20 soldier)
2 bone devils (level 17 controller)
12 legion devil legionnaires (level 21 minion)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting...
Looks like they've changed the change shape ability (again) so that the succubus can be your wife as well as 'generic peseant girl X'
I like the reboot of Glaysia's realm, well, except that I want to have more references to the night hag. I liked how the realm was 'repaved' with her in FC2, but it went a bit too far in the gross territory.
The Charming Kiss ability seems poorly worded... Since it's an effect that can last after the encounter ends, it could give some RP information (unless there is none, except for a "urge to stand between the succubus and its attackers").
The corrupting touch of the Succubus seems a bit weak compared to the level drain kiss of previous editions. But they don't like level drain and ability drain in 4e.
It's not fun.
Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
I always enjoy watching the look of fear on the player when his character's hard earned levels are threatened by powerful undead and other level drainers.
And the Succubus has lost her teleport ability too. The Malebranche has it, but it's a lame 'devil swap' with short range.
Charming kiss would be more effective if it could affect multiple foes, but all it does is turn one PC into a 'meat shield' for her and only then if she makes the Charm and Secondary attack.
I did weaken at one point and pre-ordered 4E.
The release of Pathfinder RPG made me cancel it.
Not because I am going to use that system necessarily, but it prompted me to modify 3.5 myself.
Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
I agree, but the problem is, the fun removed from the player is greater than the fun added to the DM.
This is specially true if the DM awards XP for role-playing or puzzle-solving, because in this case, the player did concrete efforts to earn a level, and it's really bad to see the effort from the last 3 sessions wasted just because of a single bad roll with a dice.
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Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
I agree, but the problem is, the fun removed from the player is greater than the fun added to the DM.
This is specially true if the DM awards XP for role-playing or puzzle-solving, because in this case, the player did concrete efforts to earn a level, and it's really bad to see the effort from the last 3 sessions wasted just because of a single bad roll with a dice.
Shot in the dark here, why not give players the option to conduct a ritual - if they capture or slay their foe, they get back some or all of their lost levels/XP. Say you need a Cleric to cast Remove Curse and an extra 300gp for special components.
I would rather do this than get rid of level drain altogether.
I remember at one point when 3E was coming out a preview claimed that Level Drain was gone for good ... some thought was floated on the message boards at the time that creatures that level drained in 2E would now inflict XP damage or something, if I remember correctly.
When 3E finally came out, I was glad they changed it to be a bit more playable, but at its core, I still didn't like the mechanic. Breaking equipment and draining levels are big screw you to players, and I never liked them, as a player or a DM (if you're running an AP, for example, level draining monsters getting lucky could mean your party is not nearly strong enough to complete the module they're on. Bought the AP because you don't have time to prepare your own stuff? Too bad! :P)
It looks like the Succubus lost her level drain, but some of the other 4E monsters we've seen still have a version of level drain. It took away healing surges instead (which could actually be very very nasty, if there aren't many affects that let you heal without a surge ...)
Cheers! :)
The corrupting touch of the Succubus seems a bit weak compared to the level drain kiss of previous editions. But they don't like level drain and ability drain in 4e.
It's not fun.
Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
I always enjoy watching the look of fear on the player when his character's hard earned levels are threatened by powerful undead and other level drainers.
And the Succubus has lost her teleport ability too. The Malebranche has it, but it's a lame 'devil swap' with short range.
Charming kiss would be more effective if it could affect multiple foes, but all it does is turn one PC into a 'meat shield' for her and only then if she makes the Charm and Secondary attack.
I did weaken at one point and pre-ordered 4E.
The release of Pathfinder RPG made me cancel it.
Not because I am going to use that system necessarily, but it prompted me to modify 3.5 myself.
In my experience, when a player loses a hard-earned level it just makes them angry, and for good reason. Level drain just basically undoes, for no real reason, several sessions of prior game time in an instant.
I dont think its fun or challenging to the players at all.
Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
I agree, but the problem is, the fun removed from the player is greater than the fun added to the DM.
This is specially true if the DM awards XP for role-playing or puzzle-solving, because in this case, the player did concrete efforts to earn a level, and it's really bad to see the effort from the last 3 sessions wasted just because of a single bad roll with a dice.
Shot in the dark here, why not give players the option to conduct a ritual - if they capture or slay their foe, they get back some or all of their lost levels/XP. Say you need a Cleric to cast Remove Curse and an extra 300gp for special components.
I would rather do this than get rid of level drain altogether.
Frankly, I dont see why screwing over players is fun. I like to challenge them, but it can be done in different ways than by death, or a permanent drain on XP or gear.
There should be spells that can fix level loss (which kind of makes it redundant or just enforces the need for a cleric). This mechanic sounds slightly more complicated than how it basically works in 4E.
Changing the subject a little...
Isn't the War Devil artwork the same from Fiendish Codex II?
an over-lvl-20 devil without a zillion of spells/special attacks/resistences/cookies?
thank you, oh dark wizard gods...
Changing the subject a little...
Isn't the War Devil artwork the same from Fiendish Codex II?
The succubus artwork is reprinted as well; I think that neither of these are the final art version from the new Monster Manual.
Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.
Not to gang up on you here, but personally the fun of threatening my players with level loss looks like it will be more than made up by the fun of playing with all the other toys GMs get. Did you see that the sample encounter for the War Devil had 16 individual devils in it?
The ability to use 3-5 times as many monsters in fights is a big plus. I don't like the looks of everything in 4e, but I do like that.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by fun, or maybe I worded it badly.
The draining of levels is not the fun part of the encounter with level draining monsters. To be honest it's a pain in terms of game mechanics with the loss of skills, feats etc.
The fun part was the reaction of players to the draining creature. The fear in them. That has gone.
Undead should be scary. So should demons and devils.
They have changed the succubus so now she is just a 'snog monster' who stands around looking pretty.
Now she is just 'Eye Candy' for the encounter.
And with regard to large encounters... so what. Big fights are tedious. I don't want to spend all night running one battle.
umm...okay then.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by fun, or maybe I worded it badly.
The draining of levels is not the fun part of the encounter with level draining monsters. To be honest it's a pain in terms of game mechanics with the loss of skills, feats etc.
The fun part was the reaction of players to the draining creature. The fear in them. That has gone.
Undead should be scary. So should demons and devils.
They have changed the succubus so now she is just a 'snog monster' who stands around looking pretty.
Now she is just 'Eye Candy' for the encounter.
And with regard to large encounters... so what. Big fights are tedious. I don't want to spend all night running one battle.
Seeing as monster can present new ways to hurt the characters (or simply twists on old methods), I doubt that the fear is going anywhere. For example, bodaks can still take you out of the fight pretty quickly (it just takes a few more actions than before).
All of these creatures still seem powerful and deadly (based off of the quick stat cards from Dungeons of Dread), they just arent going to one-hit kill you now. The succubus is no exception: before she required a grapple check to get her hands on you. Good luck since she neither has improved grab or even Improved Grapple, and her total grapple check is only +7 anyway.
The new succubus is much more likely to get her hands on you, and the ability to force dominated characters to take hits for her is also a neat mechanic.
Finally, big fights can get tedious in 3E. 4E seems to run faster.
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All of these creatures still seem powerful and deadly (based off of the quick stat cards from Dungeons of Dread), they just arent going to one-hit kill you now. The succubus is no exception: before she required a grapple check to get her hands on you. Good luck since she neither has improved grab or even Improved Grapple, and her total grapple check is only +7 anyway.
The new succubus is much more likely to get her hands on you, and the ability to force dominated characters to take hits for her is also a neat mechanic.
If I recall correctly, the 3rd Ed Succubus had Charm Person with a huge will save. Combat goes like this:
Charm (Fighter) -> Grapple (auto-success on Fighter - "I just want to kiss you") -> Drain (Fighter) or "Please defend me, Mr. Fighter (extra will save)"
Obviously, a bit more complicated mechanically but allows you to do pretty much anything, such as fly the fighter up 200 feet and drop him.
Edit: Adding the following:
Ask Wizards: In 4th Edition, the fighter is "guarding" the succubus. The cleric uses their healing strike, on the succubus, and hits the fighter instead. Does this still heal the party?
Meh.
The origin of the 4e devils makes me question why they still exist in the 4e planes. There's little rationale for why the gods didn't collectively destroy them, and since they're no longer personifications of an alignment/plane (with an innate connection to that sort of transcendant quantity) they don't seem to have the implied ability to rip an offending godling's arms off, beat them with it, and hurl them to curb (It's impolite to ask Gruumsh and Maglubiyet about the exact particulars of how they and their deific realms were ejected from the Hells and into Acheron).
In any event, not my thing. Not different enough from decades of pre-4e continuity IMO to stand on its own without evoking comparison to the 1e/2e/3e Hells. If you're going to sever ties to that history, sever ties completely and entirely reboot things. Otherwise, it looks patchy and wierd with things like yugoloths as "soldier demons" in the Abyss, succubi in Hell, etc.
YMMV of course.
All of these creatures still seem powerful and deadly (based off of the quick stat cards from Dungeons of Dread), they just arent going to one-hit kill you now. The succubus is no exception: before she required a grapple check to get her hands on you. Good luck since she neither has improved grab or even Improved Grapple, and her total grapple check is only +7 anyway.
The new succubus is much more likely to get her hands on you, and the ability to force dominated characters to take hits for her is also a neat mechanic.
If I recall correctly, the 3rd Ed Succubus had Charm Person with a huge will save. Combat goes like this:
Charm (Fighter) -> Grapple (auto-success on Fighter - "I just want to kiss you") -> Drain (Fighter) or "Please defend me, Mr. Fighter (extra will save)"
Obviously, a bit more complicated mechanically but allows you to do pretty much anything, such as fly the fighter up 200 feet and drop him.
Edit: Adding the following:
Ask Wizards: In 4th Edition, the fighter is "guarding" the succubus. The cleric uses their healing strike, on the succubus, and hits the fighter instead. Does this still heal the party?
The charm monster save is pretty steep (DC 22), but charmed creatures will not do harmful things (such as make out with succubi). Your attitude becomes friendly, but you arent going to beat up your friends, either. Now, this might be a bit different if the succubus is in disguise and other circumstances, but as soon as she plants the first one, the charm effect is going to end (though the suggestion might kick in anyway).
It works out better if the succubus can take someone by surprise, but once combat kicks in, dont bet on it (well, unless no one in the party can identify her via The Planes).
Meh.
The origin of the 4e devils makes me question why they still exist in the 4e planes. There's little rationale for why the gods didn't collectively destroy them, and since they're no longer personifications of an alignment/plane (with an innate connection to that sort of transcendant quantity) they don't seem to have the implied ability to rip an offending godling's arms off, beat them with it, and hurl them to curb (It's impolite to ask Gruumsh and Maglubiyet about the exact particulars of how they and their deific realms were ejected from the Hells and into Acheron).
In any event, not my thing. Not different enough from decades of pre-4e continuity IMO to stand on its own without evoking comparison to the 1e/2e/3e Hells. If you're going to sever ties to that history, sever ties completely and entirely reboot things. Otherwise, it looks patchy and wierd with things like yugoloths as "soldier demons" in the Abyss, succubi in Hell, etc.
YMMV of course.
The way I look at it, Gruumsh and Maglubiyet finally moved out and got a place of their own. And Succubi were always devils. They finally made their move in an act of betrayal worthy of legend and and cast off their deep-cover identities, to take their rightful place.
I don't really know enough about 4e yugoloths to comment about them.
I just look at the story as a big reboot, and not as a sequence of major changes shuffling off extra planes and whatnot. In 4E, there never was a great wheel, there never was the Blood War, and succubi were always devils.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The charm monster save is pretty steep (DC 22), but charmed creatures will not do harmful things (such as make out with succubi).
[sarc] True, since fighters often check their copy of the monster manual before they make out [/sarc]
Seriously, Charm, bluff or suggest "your friends are attacking me, save me from the cleric before he damns us both!" both effective on the guy with the bad will save. Then suggest to the rogue "Knock the wizard out before he fireballs everyone!"
The charm monster save is pretty steep (DC 22), but charmed creatures will not do harmful things (such as make out with succubi).[sarc] True, since fighters often check their copy of the monster manual before they make out [/sarc]
Seriously, Charm, bluff or suggest "your friends are attacking me, save me from the cleric before he damns us both!" both effective on the guy with the bad will save. Then suggest to the rogue "Knock the wizard out before he fireballs everyone!"
Its called a DC 16 Knowledge (the planes) check. Any character maxing out the skill can be counted on to have (depending on the level at which they fight said succubus) around +10 or more (assuming max ranks and a half-way decent Int bonus) at a minimum. Now, if they are fighting her at an appropriate level, then +12 or more is more realistic (so, a 4 or better).
Even if someone snags the skill cross-class, I would presume about a +5 or better, meaning that they got about a 50-50 chance. However, the fighter isnt necessarily the guy making the check: someone else in the party is well within their rights to recall this info and spout it off to the fighter (or whatever melee-oriented lunk is out there).Charm doesnt allow you to control an affected character, it merely sets your status to "Friendly". This does not mean that you can force one party member to go beat up another party member, as friendly characters dont do that sort of thing (they have to be Helpful, which is a step above Friendly). But then, charm person isnt a combat spell. Its designed to take the lion's share of the work out of a social encounter.
However, she might be able to convince the charmed person to hold off the rest of the party so she can get away, or to try and stop a party member from hurting her. Also, once the crap hits the fan, her subsequent charm effects are -5 on the save.
I think its weird that two "villain" devils now have none of the abilities that would make them scary villains.
I think its weird that two "villain" devils now have none of the abilities that would make them scary villains.
What do you mean? Teleport? A 30% success ratio to summon a vrock?
I was discussing the Charming Kiss ability on Wotc boards, and it seems that something is not quite right with it. The monster tactics mention that it uses Dominate first on a target and follows with a Charming Kiss (on the same target).
However... these tactics don't seem to work. If the succubus uses Charming Kiss, the target is not dominated anymore, since Dominate only works for 1 round. In his turn, the target may simply move away from the succubus (perhaps attacking her allies). The other party members may just delay their actions until the guy moves away, and then attack the succubus with full force.
It works light this:
1. Succubus uses charming kiss on Asdrubal the Fighter
(Asdrubal is not dominated anymore)
2. Party members whose iniative order is between Succubus' and Asdrubal's delay their actions
3. Asdrubal the Fighter moves away from Succubus and attacks the Snaketongue Constrictor
4. All party members can now attack the succubus.
So, the succubus turn using Charming Kiss was completely wasted. The only benefit is that Asdrubal cannot attack her (until one of her allies attack Asdrubal), but wasn't better to simply renew the Dominate effect?
Thoughts?
Snaketongue assassins ?
Crushgrip constrictors?
Legion Devil Legionnaires?
I'm waiting for MMII, where the 'Charm Devil Charmer' will finally replace the Succubus. Also, I would like to see the source code for WotC's Random Pleonasm Generator.
(:-P)
I was discussing the Charming Kiss ability on Wotc boards, and it seems that something is not quite right with it. The monster tactics mention that it uses Dominate first on a target and follows with a Charming Kiss (on the same target).
However... these tactics don't seem to work. If the succubus uses Charming Kiss, the target is not dominated anymore, since Dominate only works for 1 round. In his turn, the target may simply move away from the succubus (perhaps attacking her allies). The other party members may just delay their actions until the guy moves away, and then attack the succubus with full force.
It works light this:
1. Succubus uses charming kiss on Asdrubal the Fighter
(Asdrubal is not dominated anymore)
2. Party members whose iniative order is between Succubus' and Asdrubal's delay their actions
3. Asdrubal the Fighter moves away from Succubus and attacks the Snaketongue Constrictor
4. All party members can now attack the succubus.So, the succubus turn using Charming Kiss was completely wasted. The only benefit is that Asdrubal cannot attack her (until one of her allies attack Asdrubal), but wasn't better to simply renew the Dominate effect?
Thoughts?
Thats pretty much all true. However... the kiss lasts, unless interrupted. One more PC that can't attack the dominating monster is good, and then it go back to dominating other party members.
Further, the succubus can move next to the target (making it adjacent again).
Its a bit wonky, but it does work, particularly if there isn't infinite room to manuever. The most obnoxious aspect, in my view, is the double attack thing. Just make it a melee Will attack (basically, ditch the AC attack) and call it a day. I understand what they want to do with it, but it just works out to mucking about with the math to make it a little less likely while modelling a physical kiss attack coupled with a will save.
Even better, outside of combat, if the succubus is shape shifted, it can play 'helpless boy/girl' plus the charm kiss off and have a duped (with high bluff/diplomacy) protector that won't necessarily want to wander off.
The War devil personally sucks, (I'm having a hard time with the idea that level 22 monsters have a hard time dropping first level wizards in one hit) but his command effects are potentially nasty, especially every 3 rounds or so. The up side of this is the PCs are fighting decent sized groups (roughly party size to double party size), which I find more fun than the 3e model of dogpile on the single monster.
But they seem to be using 1st edition weapon damage for everything, coupled with 3rd edition hit points (or a little less). That feels odd, but they seem to be aiming for combats that are fairly consistently 5-7 rounds.
Snaketongue assassins ?
Crushgrip constrictors?
Legion Devil Legionnaires?I'm waiting for MMII, where the 'Charm Devil Charmer' will finally replace the Succubus. Also, I would like to see the source code for WotC's Random Pleonasm Generator.
(:-P)
The only one that in particular bothers me is the last one, and only because it seems redundant. Otherwise, I dont mind the naming conventions.
The names aren't really a big deal for me either. With the new format of providing several playable versions of a single monster, I expect they've been forced to pair up the names of most monsters to give some versatility to them. Personally I like this concept, and am willing to accept sometimes silly names as payment.
Cheers! :)
Thats pretty much all true. However... the kiss lasts, unless interrupted. One more PC that can't attack the dominating monster is good, and then it go back to dominating other party members.
Then, Asdrubal the Fighter can't attack the succubus, but he is free to attack the succubus allies'. Worse, the succubus allies also can't attack Asdrubal the Fighter (because doing so breaks the charm effect). With the Fighter's marking ability, it may be a bad idea for them to ignore Asdrubal and attack someone else.
Further, the succubus can move next to the target (making it adjacent again).
Yes, but as I mentioned, the party may just delay their turns until Asdrubal the Fighter moves away from the Succubus:
1. Succubus uses charming kiss on Asdrubal the Fighter
(Asdrubal is not dominated anymore)
2. Party members whose iniative order is between Succubus' and Asdrubal's delay their actions
3. Asdrubal the Fighter moves away from Succubus and attacks the Snaketongue Constrictor
4. All party members can now attack the succubus.
5. Succubus performs action XXX and moves again to become adjacent to Asdrubal the Fighter
6. It's now Asdrubal the Fighter's turn. He just takes a 1-foot step (thus not being adjacent to the succubus anymore) and keeps attacking the Snake tongue constrictor.
7. The party can attack the Succubus again.
So, the Succubus never becomes adjacent to Asdrubal the Fighter when the other PCs are allowed to attack, even if she moves towards him every round.
Its a bit wonky, but it does work, particularly if there isn't infinite room to manuever.
If Asdrubal the Fighter is somehow inhibited from moving, the tactic may work. However, it's simply too situational to be presented as the monster's main tactics.
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Its called a DC 16 Knowledge (the planes) check. However, the fighter isnt necessarily the guy making the check: someone else in the party is well within their rights to recall this info and spout it off to the fighter (or whatever melee-oriented lunk is out there).[/QUOTE/
Granted, and I would fully allow the fighter to make a second will save when the Succubus does something personal.
Charm doesnt allow you to control an affected character, it merely sets your status to "Friendly". This does not mean that you can force one party member to go beat up another party member, as friendly characters dont do that sort of thing (they have to be Helpful, which is a step above Friendly).Unless the PCs know they are in combat, I am fairly confident in re-asserting that a charmed character would have no justification, outside pre-established roleplaying, for refusing to embrace a Succubus (especially one in disguise).
Besides, the designers meant for the Succubus to be a behind-the-scenes villain, one who causes endless trouble for the PCs until they track her down, at which point, if prepared, combat is pretty satisfyingly easy.
The direction in 4th Edition seems to be: "Every monster needs to do something in combat, but nobody cares about non-combat abilities so let's axe them." Case in point, teleport. Endlessly useful for a DM to create a persistent villain. But does make unprepared players annoyed in combat.
What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".
Well, I'll toss my two cents into the hat here, since the discussion has turned towards just how the succubus would function in a fight, and that's kind of intresting. Voss and Krauser_Levyl have both put some intresting things forward, but i think Krauser_Levyl is forgetting a few things in his very good description of a meta game solution to the Charming Kiss.
If the player is charmed, assuming that charm works the same way that it does in 3.5 the situation you describe simply won't work. (A big assumption! We aren't sure about how Charm or domination works in 4E yet.)
All the succubus has to do is beg the fighter to stand next to her, pleading for her friend to defend her from his fellows. Since the fighter is charmed, he has to act a if he actually were the succubus's friend and would stand beside her to defend her. Not attack his actual friends, charm doesn't do that, but it can be used to defend the devil. She can't ask him to attack his friends, but she can ask him to stop them from attacking her. Things like using grapple to stop the party from attacking her and indeed blocking attacks are perfectly acceptable.
You can't just ignore the succubus as if she wern't there. People do not simply leave their friends to be attacked, and even if you are an evil blackguard, charm forces you to care about the charmer. How far a charmed person has to go to defend their newest bestest friend is based upon the DM's judgement.
The direction in 4th Edition seems to be: "Every monster needs to do something in combat, but nobody cares about non-combat abilities so let's axe them." Case in point, teleport. Endlessly useful for a DM to create a persistent villain. But does make unprepared players annoyed in combat.
The fact is that not all enemies are "persistent", and not all persistent enemies are "devils". If you want to give a monster a teleport ability, I'm 100% sure that you could do so using the monster customization rules. It's just not necessary that EVERY devil is able to teleport himself at will (it was mentioned that devils will be able to teleport themselves using rituals which require some time to cast). It's like saying that every elf must have the Teleport ability because you need an particular elf to be a recurring villain.
What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".
Keith Baker mentioned on his blog that there will be rules to create noncombatant NPCs on 4th edition, and they will be far more flexible than on 3.5, because you won't need to make a 10th-level expert with 10d6 hit points if you need just someone with a +15 Diplomacy check.
And besides... honestly, I can't see how is a "problem" that every monster from the Monster Manual is capable of providing a balanced and challenging combat (I still don't believe 4th edition can do that, but if it could, it would be a bless, not a problem). Wasn't the goal of the CR system exactly that - to help the DM to find adequate challenges for his group?
I admit that there would be a problem if the monster loses non-combat abilities that are needed for him to be role-played properly. I just don't think that the Succubus' teleport is one of these abilities. In fact, I think the 4th-edition succubus fits its noncombat rule much better than before.
Why? Because the 4th-edition succubus now needs to roleplay her tempting and seduction. She will use her formidable Bluff and Diplomacy skills, and her Change Shape ability (now able to replicate specific individuals, such as the victim's wife) to lure her victim. On 3.5, although the succubus had excellent Bluff and Diplomacy checks, all she needed really was to cast Charm Monster.
What movie would you prefer to watch? One in which the demon slowly corrupts the mind of his victim, changes his everyday's actions, until he becomes her personal pet, without anyone knowing who is behind that... or one in which the demon simply throws a magical compulsion and makes the victim's friends immediately suspicious of the sudden change?
Its called a DC 16 Knowledge (the planes) check. However, the fighter isnt necessarily the guy making the check: someone else in the party is well within their rights to recall this info and spout it off to the fighter (or whatever melee-oriented lunk is out there).[/QUOTE/
Granted, and I would fully allow the fighter to make a second will save when the Succubus does something personal.
Charm doesnt allow you to control an affected character, it merely sets your status to "Friendly". This does not mean that you can force one party member to go beat up another party member, as friendly characters dont do that sort of thing (they have to be Helpful, which is a step above Friendly).Unless the PCs know they are in combat, I am fairly confident in re-asserting that a charmed character would have no justification, outside pre-established roleplaying, for refusing to embrace a Succubus (especially one in disguise).
Besides, the designers meant for the Succubus to be a behind-the-scenes villain, one who causes endless trouble for the PCs until they track her down, at which point, if prepared, combat is pretty satisfyingly easy.
The direction in 4th Edition seems to be: "Every monster needs to do something in combat, but nobody cares about non-combat abilities so let's axe them." Case in point, teleport. Endlessly useful for a DM to create a persistent villain. But does make unprepared players annoyed in combat.
What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".
In 3rd Edition, if a character identifies a succubus, then even a charmed one isnt going to lock lips because its an "obviously harmful action". Its an extremely low Knowledge DC to figure it out. If she's in disguise at the time, then its easier because the PC doesnt know.
As for the 4E design philosophy, of course monsters need interesting things to do during combat, thats the point of the stat blocks in the first place. Of course, she still has non-combat abilities (her skills, change shape, and charming kiss).
As for the Baron, sure he exists in 4th Edition. He just doesnt need a combat-oriented stat block because you arent intended to fight him. Do you need to have a full array of stats for a guy that I suppose you are just going to talk to? I think many DMs already use some kind of shorthand when it comes to that sort of thing.
What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".
I would question exactly how his Baron-ship can exist in 3E, either, if his existence is based off of having HP or combat ability, which you say he does not. How does he get all those followers anyway? Diplomacy? A 1st level character is capped at a +4 so you'll have to level him up a bit before he has enough ...
Essentially, I think this example is a pretty blatant straw man. If you have an NPC who the PCs are not supposed to fight, not having combat stats for him is certainly not a flaw of the system. I'm not even sure if you could consider it a flaw at all.
(Also, fighting a guy with no HP or combat ability isn't very fun, at least IMO. I like a challenge! :P)
Cheers! :)
What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".I would question exactly how his Baron-ship can exist in 3E, either, if his existence is based off of having HP or combat ability, which you say he does not. How does he get all those followers anyway? Diplomacy? A 1st level character is capped at a +4 so you'll have to level him up a bit before he has enough ...
Essentially, I think this example is a pretty blatant straw man. If you have an NPC who the PCs are not supposed to fight, not having combat stats for him is certainly not a flaw of the system. I'm not even sure if you could consider it a flaw at all.
(Also, fighting a guy with no HP or combat ability isn't very fun, at least IMO. I like a challenge! :P)
Cheers! :)
But, how can you kill a man with no life?
But, how can you kill a man with no life?
Suddenly, I'm thinking about a great unkillable villain. Do as much damage as you want but ... he ... just ... keeps ... coming! (He has no HPs to lose!) :P
Cheers! :)
But, how can you kill a man with no life?Suddenly, I'm thinking about a great unkillable villain. Do as much damage as you want but ... he ... just ... keeps ... coming! (He has no HPs to lose!) :P
Cheers! :)
It was a quote from the South Park episode "Make Love Not WarCraft". Thinking of a villain with no hit points made me think of it.
It was a quote from the South Park episode "Make Love Not WarCraft". Thinking of a villain with no hit points made me think of it.
Great episode (and equally great quote!)
I've been reading Elric recently, and my thoughts were drawn to the Creature Cursed to Live.
Cheers! :)
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What about Baron Sillypants, a noble lord with no hit points or combat ability but a huge Charisma and army of followers. Well, in 4th Edition, he doesn't exist, because fighting him isn't "fun".I would question exactly how his Baron-ship can exist in 3E, either, if his existence is based off of having HP or combat ability, which you say he does not. How does he get all those followers anyway? Diplomacy? A 1st level character is capped at a +4 so you'll have to level him up a bit before he has enough ...
Essentially, I think this example is a pretty blatant straw man. If you have an NPC who the PCs are not supposed to fight, not having combat stats for him is certainly not a flaw of the system. I'm not even sure if you could consider it a flaw at all.
(Also, fighting a guy with no HP or combat ability isn't very fun, at least IMO. I like a challenge! :P)
Cheers! :)
Sorry, a bit of an overstatement on my part. What I meant was "very few" hit points, say a 10th level Aristocrat with the Leadership feat and a low con score. If 4th Edition improves the ease of creating NPCs, more power to it.
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Keith Baker mentioned on his blog that there will be rules to create noncombatant NPCs on 4th edition, and they will be far more flexible than on 3.5, because you won't need to make a 10th-level expert with 10d6 hit points if you need just someone with a +15 Diplomacy check.
There are ways around this in 3rd Edition, I get the feeling the 4th Edition solution could be a little too free-form. Sort of like Sean K. Reynold's argument that monsters should never do things the players can't. Then you get the player saying "why can't my 1st level Barbarian have +15 to diplomacy too?"
And besides... honestly, I can't see how is a "problem" that every monster from the Monster Manual is capable of providing a balanced and challenging combat (I still don't believe 4th edition can do that, but if it could, it would be a bless, not a problem). Wasn't the goal of the CR system exactly that - to help the DM to find adequate challenges for his group?
And I think the CR system works. It helps find an encounter, but you need to look beyond the number. But it seems to be a difference in playing preferences here. My experience has always been enhanced by foes that perform very differently (and PCs for that matter). 4th Edition seems too...homogenous.
I admit that there would be a problem if the monster loses non-combat abilities that are needed for him to be role-played properly. I just don't think that the Succubus' teleport is one of these abilities. In fact, I think the 4th-edition succubus fits its noncombat rule much better than before.
Again, I think this is a point of preference. My view of the Succubus is as a behind-the-scenes manipulator. Teleport at will for them (or any other manipulative devil) works because it forces the characters to expend resources tracking them down and tracking them. But consider the following: the Succubus is summoned from the lower planes to a wizards lab, escapes, and has to WALK to the village where she wants to start her schemes for world domination. Pretty mundane.
On the other hand, the demon who is summoned doesn't teleport anywhere, they walk haphazardly across the world, slaughtering everything.
Keith Baker mentioned on his blog that there will be rules to create noncombatant NPCs on 4th edition, and they will be far more flexible than on 3.5, because you won't need to make a 10th-level expert with 10d6 hit points if you need just someone with a +15 Diplomacy check.There are ways around this in 3rd Edition, I get the feeling the 4th Edition solution could be a little too free-form. Sort of like Sean K. Reynold's argument that monsters should never do things the players can't. Then you get the player saying "why can't my 1st level Barbarian have +15 to diplomacy too?"
And besides... honestly, I can't see how is a "problem" that every monster from the Monster Manual is capable of providing a balanced and challenging combat (I still don't believe 4th edition can do that, but if it could, it would be a bless, not a problem). Wasn't the goal of the CR system exactly that - to help the DM to find adequate challenges for his group?And I think the CR system works. It helps find an encounter, but you need to look beyond the number. But it seems to be a difference in playing preferences here. My experience has always been enhanced by foes that perform very differently (and PCs for that matter). 4th Edition seems too...homogenous.
I admit that there would be a problem if the monster loses non-combat abilities that are needed for him to be role-played properly. I just don't think that the Succubus' teleport is one of these abilities. In fact, I think the 4th-edition succubus fits its noncombat rule much better than before.Again, I think this is a point of preference. My view of the Succubus is as a behind-the-scenes manipulator. Teleport at will for them (or any other manipulative devil) works because it forces the characters to expend resources tracking them down and tracking them. But consider the following: the Succubus is summoned from the lower planes to a wizards lab, escapes, and has to WALK to the...
The important thing to consider is that a player really wont be asking, "How does John Talkerton have a +15 to Diplomacy? He's only 1st-level!", since the player shouldnt know what level the NPC is. The difference is that I could stat out an official block for a NPC in order to get him +15 to Diplomacy, but if all I need for a given situation (or encounter) is for the NPC to have +15 to the check, I can just state that. I could do it on a technical basis, or I can just say he does (since thats where I was going with it anyway).
I personally dont mind losing teleport abilities for like, every devil out there. It just means that I dont have to think of some way to remove that ability later (antimagic zones and the like). If she has to walk or fly to another town, thats fine. Her traveling is something is going to happen behind the scenes anyway, so its not like anyone is going to see her.
I personally find it offensive that WotC had decied that they want to get rid of ridgid alignments based on race, but then obviously flinched when it came to applying these standards to Demons and Devils. If Angels can be evil, then why can't a Demon be good? I think that WotC is still affraid of the Christion Collition.
I've never thought that the cosmology of Hell and the Abyss has ever made sense. What I ended up doing in my HBW is merged the two into one species with the word "Devil" being a title, like "Lord" of "Duke". I rolled them up into a little ball and dropped them into hell and then turned the Abyss into something truely horrible. (based loosly off of Clive Barkers version of Hell in the 'Hellraiser' movies.) THe Abyss has become a prison for the Gods. It's where they keep anything that is too powerful for them to destroy outright.
Well, I'll toss my two cents into the hat here, since the discussion has turned towards just how the succubus would function in a fight, and that's kind of intresting. Voss and Krauser_Levyl have both put some intresting things forward, but i think Krauser_Levyl is forgetting a few things in his very good description of a meta game solution to the Charming Kiss.If the player is charmed, assuming that charm works the same way that it does in 3.5 the situation you describe simply won't work.
Ah. The problem, however, is that 'charm' doesn't seem to be an effect or condition. At least, if it is, it isn't part of this 'charming kiss' power. For contrast, look at her dominate ability- thats clearly inflicting the 'dominated' status on the target, however that is defined elsewhere in the rules. Charm is part of the attack types, but its more like a school or the [mind-affecting] tag in 3e. Dominate has it, and so do several of the warlock's damaging powers (the ones that do psychic damage).
Charming kiss, however, does two things, and two things only- victim can't attack the succubus, and becomes the target of attacks if adjacent to the succubus. By the text, it does nothing else, so other than those two situations, the character acts normally.
I personally find it offensive that WotC had decied that they want to get rid of ridgid alignments based on race, but then obviously flinched when it came to applying these standards to Demons and Devils. If Angels can be evil, then why can't a Demon be good? I think that WotC is still affraid of the Christion Collition.
This is explained on Worlds & Monsters. Angels on 4th edition are "generic deity servants" rather than "good deity servants".
Devils are actually a type of angel - the angels who serve the god Asmodeus. They have different appearance and powers than other angels because of some really bad things that happened on the past. But other evil goods such as Vecna and Bane have regular angels working for them (although they sometimes borrow devils from Asmodeus in exchange for some unspeakable things).
Demons and archons on 4th edition don't serve deities. They are now elementals.
Again, I think this is a point of preference. My view of the Succubus is as a behind-the-scenes manipulator. Teleport at will for them (or any other manipulative devil) works because it forces the characters to expend resources tracking them down and tracking them. But consider the following: the Succubus is summoned from the lower planes to a wizards lab, escapes, and has to WALK to the village where she wants to start her schemes for world domination. Pretty mundane.
The question is: should every succubus be capable of dominating the world? If that was the case, the world would be quickly screwed up.
As I mentioned, succubus and other devils can still teleport themselves using rituals. It's just not like they can do it hundreds of time per day. A lone and clever succubus can do a pretty mess by manipulating a king and his closest allies and generals.
Now, if you really want a particular succubus capable of manipulating all the world's rulers at the same time, than you give her the teleport at will ability. I just don't think that every succubus should be capable of doing that. At least, when the PCs defeat a party of 4 succubus, they shouldn't feel that they saved 4 worlds from certain domination.
A monster that can teleport himself at will is not only hard to track, it's almost impossible if played in a realistic manner (hey, haven't you watched Jumper?), unless, as Antioch pointed out, the DMs comes out with some explanation for the PCs being capable of doing that, such as an antimagic zone (in Jumper they had to come with a machine that... hey I won't spoil the movie...)
There are ways around this in 3rd Edition, I get the feeling the 4th Edition solution could be a little too free-form. Sort of like Sean K. Reynold's argument that monsters should never do things the players can't. Then you get the player saying "why can't my 1st level Barbarian have +15 to diplomacy too?"
I enjoy the ability to have a character who is a dedicated non-combatant, with TRULY no combat ability, but still able to be skilled/powerful. In 3E there were ways to do it too (although somewhat less successful, IMO), but even then, it was a lot of space spent on something silly. Combat stats for people who are non-combatants. If my PCs decide to attack the town baker well ... I don't care how well he can put up a fight. Why even bother? (When the town guards start showing up though ...)
And I think the CR system works. It helps find an encounter, but you need to look beyond the number. But it seems to be a difference in playing preferences here. My experience has always been enhanced by foes that perform very differently (and PCs for that matter). 4th Edition seems too...homogenous.
I like CR too. It was definitely a good descision. If 4E did not contain it, or some kind of analogue, I'd be pretty off-put. From what I've read, you are told how much XP a balanced encounter is worth now, and you gather that many monsters to fill it (preferabbly within a certain level range, with 5 equal level monsters being best). Rather like CR, really, but with less math overall. In fact, you could probably derive a VERY similar system using CR if someone so desired.
As for enemy performance ... I'm just not sure what you mean. I've run a game of 4E and different monsters are sill different. (In fact, how could they be the same?)
Again, I think this is a point of preference. My view of the Succubus is as a behind-the-scenes manipulator. Teleport at will for them (or any other manipulative devil) works because it forces the characters to expend resources tracking them down and tracking them. But consider the following: the Succubus is summoned from the lower planes to a wizards lab, escapes, and has to WALK to the village where she wants to start her schemes for world domination. Pretty mundane.
On the other hand, the demon who is summoned doesn't teleport anywhere, they walk haphazardly across the world, slaughtering everything.
It sounds to me like the wilderness just got a bit more dangerous. :awesome:
Cheers! :)